"dpb" wrote in message ...
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:13:13 -0600, dpb wrote:

Amazing what some judicious upscale pretentiousness can do in a
marketing campaign isn't it???

That really isn't true with most Festool items.

Even though I think Systainers are overpriced, every Festool _tool_
I've tried really has been far above the competition. ...

You notice I didn't say the tool wasn't a good tool...

I _still_ think they're overpriced, though, and that their marketing plays
into the elitist club thing. W/ sufficient markup on individual tools,
they don't need the tremendous volume. Great for them if they can
continue to make it work.


Festool has been around for a very very long time, just not in the spot
light until some what recently. I suspect that if the pricing policy did
not work it would have been changed many years ago. Fortunately the pricing
policy affords the dealer the ability to get involved with the customer more
so that other brands.

Leon wrote:
....
...I suspect that if the pricing policy did
not work it would have been changed many years ago. ...

Think???

What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and
hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch"
quite successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk
away to the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at
that price.".

I _still_ don't think they're actually _worth_ the premium, but as you
say, it's a model that seemingly works for them.

--

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:05:47 -0600, dpb wrote:


I _still_ think they're overpriced, though, and that their marketing
plays into the elitist club thing.

Elitist marketing causes buyer's remorse once the item is in use. It
works great in the short run. Where's the Festool race car?

This elitist marketed tool has a no questions asked return policy,
still available AFTER you use the tool heavily. But the reality is
many Festool buyers are repeat customers. How many other tool
manufacturers have the confidence to offer a 100% money back
guarantee?

Don't you think all the pros (where a tool is simply overhead) who use
them would have returned them in favor for the 1/3-1/2 price
competitor?

Why would the same guys buy more of them?

I'm not talking about yuppies who never use the stuff except as a
collection to walk the buddies through, but the guys who often work
alone, with nobody to impress. I'm also not talking about the guys
who hang out in front of Home Depot and hack together storage sheds,
vinyl siding, and basic decks.

I own zero Festool products right now, so I'm not justifying my own
purchases. It's just that every one of their tools I've fondled has
been a fantastic item with advances, creating real value. Kinda' like
a powered version of a Lie Nielsen tool.

I thought LN was elitist, until I used one... G

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
...
...I suspect that if the pricing policy did not work it would have been
changed many years ago. ...

Think???

What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and
hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch" quite
successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk away to
the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at that
price.".

I _still_ don't think they're actually _worth_ the premium, but as you
say, it's a model that seemingly works for them.

And for you and many others the brand very well may be a waste of money.
Personally I think Skil and Ryobi are over priced.

"dpb" wrote:

What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and
hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch" quite
successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk away to
the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at that
price.".


Think maybe they took a page from book of their neighbor Mercedes?

Lew

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:28:39 +0000, Leon wrote:


And for you and many others the brand very well may be a waste of money.
Personally I think Skil and Ryobi are over priced.

How about that! Something Leon and I agree on :-).

Lew Hodgett wrote:
....
Think maybe they took a page from book of their neighbor Mercedes?

Yep...I had thought that precisely, actually...

--

On Feb 23, 10:39*pm, dpb wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

...

Think maybe they took a page from book of their neighbor Mercedes?

Yep...I had thought that precisely, actually...

--

People buy Mercedes for functionality?
Status symbols, maybe?
As cars go, they're not all they are made out to be.

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?

"Robatoy" wrote:

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?

You tell me.

Lew

On Feb 23, 11:51*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote:

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?

You tell me.

Lew



Okay then:

How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress. Personally, I bought
that product because it is outstanding.
And that is a helluvalot more than I can say for Mercedes.

"Robatoy" wrote in message

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
You tell me.

How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.

Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a big
enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool
to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed to
say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull a
Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close to
the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still
make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others
wouldn't have.

Does that make me out to flaunt status symbols? Maybe, but it would be a
status symbol that I'd also be using when opportunity called for it. Maybe
the difference is that I like to use my status symbols, not just put them
out solely for display purposes.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:17:59 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:


You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?

I can't understand that parallel, either.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:28:39 +0000, Leon wrote:


And for you and many others the brand very well may be a waste of money.
Personally I think Skil and Ryobi are over priced.

How about that! Something Leon and I agree on :-).


How bout that, Larry. ;~) One of the two of us is not totally
unreasonable. LOL

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Robatoy" wrote in message

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
You tell me.

How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.

Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a
big
enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool
to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed
to
say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull
a
Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close
to
the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still
make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others
wouldn't have.

Swingman had to sit through my presentation of my Domino. I don't think he
had to cringe too much. :~)
It was pay back, he showed me his Multrouter first. LOL

Late again to a thread but here goes.

Marketing to Elitists

When I find a tool or machine that works as well or better than
the tool or machine I'm currently using - and it's notably eaiser
to use and faster (those two go together), I'm very interested.
If I buy it and it doesn't live up to expectations I tell other
woodworkers who are considering getting one why I personally
was disappointed by the tool or machine. And if it meets or
exceeds my expectations I tell other woodworkers who are
considering getting one why I personally like the tool or machine.
In either case, I try to provide emperical data to support my
opinion of the tool or machine.

In the case of the DOMINO, which is often perceived as merely
a very expensive biscuit cutter, I try and educate woodworkers
who have a need for a tool like the DOMINO. The motivation
is to provide information that may be useful to a purchasing
decision. It's not a show off thing - "look what I can do that
you can't" or "look what I have that you don't" - I enjoy
helping people, to be of service to others - it just seems the
right thing to do.

So let's look at the DOMINO, what it can do and leave the
"Is it worth it? up to others to decide.

The mortise and tenon is a great joint - but it takes some time,
knowledge, skills, abilities and tools to make them. If you lack
any of it's requirements you probably won't use them often, if
at all. So you go with pocket screws and/or biscuits, maybe
even dowels. Each will hold two pieces of wood together end
grain to side grain - square to each other. But each alternative
involves a compromise - in strength, appearance or both.
How much compromise you're willing to make is up to you.

Since cutting the mortise part of the mortise and tenon joint
is the most time consuming operation if done with mallet and
chisel, a chisel and bit mortising machine can get you over
that excuse for not using M&T joinery. Most drill presses
either come with a "mortising accessory package" - adapter,
chisels and bits, some sort of fence and hold down. That
makes cutting mortises a little easier and a little quicker
- but not by much.

A little dedicated bench top chisel and bit mortising machine
does the job a bit quicker and quite bit easier than the "drill
press add on" - and they're not prohibitively expensive/
BUT - a really good dedicated chisel and bit mortiser - one with
a 3/4 hp or more motor, nice beefy guides and ways, a long
stout handle, a larger, solid table and fence and a good hold
down and hold in system to keep the stock in place, PLUS some
easily set left/right stops - makes the job SO MUCH EASIER
- to set up and use. Add an XY table, with in/out stops you
can easily set, and the job of cuttng mortises gets even easier
- and more likely to be used.

Now a dedicated horizontal boring/mortising machine will make
cutting mortises even easier and faster - and can be use to
make the tenons as well.

OR - a router based mortising jig will make cut mortises quicker
and easier.

But - after you've done a bunch of mortise and tenon joints
and appreciate this joint - and have a way of quickly and
easily cutting the mortises - in both side grain AND - with a
horizontal boring/mortising machineor router and jig - it soon
becomes obvious that an integral tenon on each end of the
"tenons" part
a) wastes nice wood - the tenons won't be seen
b) is a high risk thing - blow a tenon and you have to make a
WHOLE NEW PART
c) isn't necessary if you can mortise the part that would
normally REQUIRE a tenon and go with a seperate loose
/floating tenon. Just as strong if not stronger and it
can be made from scraps you'd probably otherwise
throw away or burn. AND - the loose/floating tenon
part can be of some other wood - perhaps a stonger/harder
wood if it's size must be small.

So - traditional mortise and tenon joinery gets replaced by
loose/floating tenon joinery, the mortises all done with
a router and jig or a horizontal boring/mortising machine.

Now if you went the mortise and tenon route, starting with
saw, chisel and mallet then upgraded over time through
the mortise cutting machine or machine and jig you'd
have spent as much or more than the whole DOMINO
package - AND you would've spent hours of tedius and
sometimes irritating time setting up and using the tools,
machines and jigs that the DOMINO makes unnecessary.

If you were an advanced beginner, or an intermediate
woodworker (enough experience to appreciate what the
DOMINO does FOR you) wouldn't you want this tool?
Not because it's REALLY EXPENSIVE or LOOKS REALLY
REALLY COOL - but because it will enable you to make
more and better pieces quicker and easier.

So "spreading the word" - for me - is more "evangelical"
- here's a better way. I'm a DOMINO Evangelist. I'm
also a JoinTech Cabinet Maker Router Table System
and AKEDA dovetail jig sytem evangelist. These things
do things other tools and machines CAN do- but do
them quicker, easier and more accurately. In the case
of the JoinTech, it also does things nothing else can
do, at least not anythng I can afford. If I can "enlighten"
a woodworker I've done my job. If that person "converts"
- that's THEIR choice.

Elitist I'm not. Helpful - well I'm working on that one.

charlie b

"Robatoy" wrote:

Okay then:

How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress. Personally, I bought
that product because it is outstanding.
And that is a helluvalot more than I can say for Mercedes.

The key word is "perception" or "perceived value".

They are not selling the steak, they are selling the sizzle.

It just so happens it is also a pretty good steak.

To pull it off, they need only to create the need in the gut of the buyer.

Lew

On Feb 22, 10:18*pm, r payne wrote:
Leon wrote:
"r payne" wrote in message
...

" wrote:

SNIP

*It comes with a guide and is built to use
that guide. *It comes ready for dust collection. *It has soft start
motor. *It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. *It has various
speed levels for different blades and material being cut. *It has a
pluge mechanism to make blind cuts.

SNIP

Now we are getting *to the nuts and bolts. *This is what I was looking
for.

Wee geez r payne. *Be more specific. *Most any tool can be had that is ready
with dust collection, soft start, ESC and or variable speed.

Might I add the stunning black color highlighted by the green knobs and
switches. ;~)

Just kidding. *Really, these tools don't leave any features out that I can
think of. *If there is a particular tool that you want to know about it may
be easier to answer your questions. *Most every Festool has 1 or more unique
features that stand out from the competition.

OK, now I am ordering you to take a couple of hours off and look at the
array of tools that you dealer will have. *It is eye candy galore and you
will be saying geeeee, those are cool features. *;~)

There is one dealer in town, all other dealers would take most of a day to drive
and visit. *I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but after
standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20 minutes all
I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the cost".

Some of the features on some of the Festool tools probably justify the
twice the price. The circular saw and guide rail system and the
Domino are the ones I think have unique features you cannot find
elsewhere. So for them its twice the cost of nothing. No one else
has a tool with those features. (I know several brands recently came
out with plunge saws and guide rails as mentioned in another thread.)
Some tools like the jigsaw and some of the sanders, its hard to
justify the twice the price. I have one of their orbital sanders and
its nice. But twice as nice? Jigsaw is a jigsaw basically. Some
rave about the Rotex sander. Maybe it is a unique sander and
justifies the twice the price. Haven't used it. I recall an article
on cabinet installation in Tools of the Trade by the bearded skinny
Rhode Island guy. He used the Festool cordless drill. The $400+ one
with the eccentric and 90 degree chucks and removable chuck to make it
a very short maneuverable 1/4" hex driver. I don't install enough
cabinets to justify a tool that has useful and unique features like
the cordless drill. But he might and the tool cost is immaterial when
installing $50,000 kitchens once a month. Those extra features more
than pay for themselves. I like the circular saw and guide rail. But
if I was a framer/roofer cutting OSB for sheathing I would have no
need for the Festool accuracy. A 2x4 guide rail is more than good
enough. Or a freehand cut is good enough with enough experience. So
a roofer/framer would have no need for the Festool circular saw unique
features. But someone who does not have a sliding panel saw may be
able to get similar results, but slower, with the Festool when cutting
hardwood veneered plywood. Maybe comparing the Festool circular saw
to a sliding tablesaw is a more appropriate comparison than a
sidewinder saw. Maybe.



And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may have or
offer a demo. *From what has been posted there may be some new innovations and
new innovations always cost more. *So I think I'll wait a couple of years and
see what happens in the market. *Although I sounds like what I would try to
design if I was to build one.

ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No I don't think people buy tools as a status symbol. I believe most of us
buy the best we can afford taking into account the amount of use, our skill
levels and whether we are DIYers, avid hobbyist or professionals. And we do
have to take into account our income.

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Robatoy" wrote:

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?

You tell me.

Lew

If it was bought to flaunt it would be pretty dumb IMHO, but if it is used
that is different.

It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it
rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Robatoy" wrote in message

You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
You tell me.

How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.

Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a
big
enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool
to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed
to
say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull
a
Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close
to
the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still
make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others
wouldn't have.

Does that make me out to flaunt status symbols? Maybe, but it would be a
status symbol that I'd also be using when opportunity called for it. Maybe
the difference is that I like to use my status symbols, not just put them
out solely for display purposes.

"asmurff" wrote

It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it
rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.


Some people I know buy SUV's to get a sturdy vehicle that will protect them
in a crash. Also, 4 wheel drive can be useful (and safer) on rain slick
surfaces. Modern cars that are lightweight and fuel efficent don't stand up
well to accidents.

asmurff wrote:
It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it
rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.

Which we all know happens all the time. That's why people have these big
4WD SUVs that have never left the asphalt.

--
Blog Me! http://BitchSpot.JadeDragonOnline.com