Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction motor
for less than $500 ?
Jamffer

In article , "Ghamph" wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction motor
for less than $500 ?

Perhaps you could provide more information about what you want to do. There
are some things a router can do that *no* shaper can do at any price, and some
things that are done better by one than by the other.

Regardless... if your budget is limited, consider buying a used shaper. It's
just like buying a car: would you rather have a used Lexus, or a new Kia?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction motor
for less than $500 ?

Don't know exactly what you mean by "do the jobs of router", but
Grizzly has a couple of small shapers for less than $500 IIRC. I
think they can accept 1/2" shank router bits, if that's what you mean.
Andy

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?

Perhaps you could provide more information about what you want to do.
There
are some things a router can do that *no* shaper can do at any price, and
some
things that are done better by one than by the other.

Regardless... if your budget is limited, consider buying a used shaper.
It's
just like buying a car: would you rather have a used Lexus, or a new Kia?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

People don't part with high quality stuff often , maybe an estate sale?
I was thinking about getting a router for my table saw router extension.
But didn't know if I could get a reasonably quiet one because they all are
brush motor units and tend to be more noisy than induction. But a shaper
might hold router bits and do table router and shaper jobs a bit quieter ,
my guess.
Also is there a (quiet) router available?
Jamffer

"Andy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?

Don't know exactly what you mean by "do the jobs of router", but
Grizzly has a couple of small shapers for less than $500 IIRC. I
think they can accept 1/2" shank router bits, if that's what you mean.
Andy


Thanks , that sounds good. Never had a shaper but I think they are a more
industrial style table router for extended use for speed and time.
I assume it would be a bit quieter also. Wouldn't replace a hand router
though.
What's the quietest router , if you know?
Jamffer

I use a shaper and it is very noisy but it is not the motor it is the
cutters.
"Ghamph" wrote in message
...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?

Perhaps you could provide more information about what you want to do.
There
are some things a router can do that *no* shaper can do at any price, and
some
things that are done better by one than by the other.

Regardless... if your budget is limited, consider buying a used shaper.
It's
just like buying a car: would you rather have a used Lexus, or a new Kia?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

People don't part with high quality stuff often , maybe an estate sale?
I was thinking about getting a router for my table saw router extension.
But didn't know if I could get a reasonably quiet one because they all are
brush motor units and tend to be more noisy than induction. But a shaper
might hold router bits and do table router and shaper jobs a bit quieter ,
my guess.
Also is there a (quiet) router available?
Jamffer

"SWDeveloper" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 May 2007 14:52:00 -0400, "Ghamph"
wrote:

Shapers can be limited in use which makes routers within router tables
more attractive. A good router table reduces dust and noise, provides
a good fence that you can clamp on featherboards, and has a convenient
ON/OFF switch. A good 3HP router is about $250. Another $250 for the
parts to make a good router table. You'll probably spend $500 on
bits. There are no "quiet" routers.

So I guess that a good variable/sp router is the best way to go. One with
enough hp to run large bits at slower speed.
I have a router table w/kit in table saw ext. $500 on bits sounds a bit
steep.
Thanks all.
Jamffer

On Tue, 1 May 2007 14:52:00 -0400, "Ghamph"
wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?

Perhaps you could provide more information about what you want to do.
There
are some things a router can do that *no* shaper can do at any price, and
some
things that are done better by one than by the other.

Regardless... if your budget is limited, consider buying a used shaper.
It's
just like buying a car: would you rather have a used Lexus, or a new Kia?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

People don't part with high quality stuff often , maybe an estate sale?
I was thinking about getting a router for my table saw router extension.
But didn't know if I could get a reasonably quiet one because they all are
brush motor units and tend to be more noisy than induction. But a shaper
might hold router bits and do table router and shaper jobs a bit quieter ,
my guess.
Also is there a (quiet) router available?
Jamffer


Shapers can be limited in use which makes routers within router tables
more attractive. A good router table reduces dust and noise, provides
a good fence that you can clamp on featherboards, and has a convenient
ON/OFF switch. A good 3HP router is about $250. Another $250 for the
parts to make a good router table. You'll probably spend $500 on
bits. There are no "quiet" routers.

In article , "Ghamph" wrote:

Thanks , that sounds good. Never had a shaper but I think they are a more
industrial style table router for extended use for speed and time.

Yeah, sort of. Shaper motors don't spin nearly as fast as router motors
(typically 8-10K rpm vs 20-25K for a router), so you should not expect as
clean a cut when using router bits in a collet on a shaper as you would get
from the same bits used in a router.

OTOH, shaper motors have a *lot* more torque, and are much better suited to
jobs such as cutting raised panels. You can take off much more wood in one
pass with a shaper cutter than you can with a router bit, and still get a very
smooth cut. Shaper cutters normally have three cutting edges (vs. two on a
router bit), which partially makes up for the slower speed.

I assume it would be a bit quieter also.

You assume incorrectly -- it's a *lot* quieter. :-)

Wouldn't replace a hand router though.

[mental picture of The Incredible Hulk holding a shaper upside down and
guiding it along the edge of a tabletop]

What's the quietest router , if you know?

One that's turned off.

Seriously, it's kind of like asking "what's the quietest jackhammer?" Anything
with a 25,000 rpm motor is going to make a lot of noise. In my mind, there's
not really much of a difference between "obnoxiously noisy" and "unbearably
noisy"; you need ear protection in either case. And if your shop is in your
garage, don't run the router at 11pm with the overhead door open, like the guy
across the street did a few years ago -- tends to bug your neighbors a bit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Ghamph" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction motor
for less than $500 ?

Perhaps you could provide more information about what you want to do. There
are some things a router can do that *no* shaper can do at any price, and some
things that are done better by one than by the other.

Regardless... if your budget is limited, consider buying a used shaper. It's
just like buying a car: would you rather have a used Lexus, or a new Kia?

People don't part with high quality stuff often , maybe an estate sale?

That's kind of hit-or-miss. Best thing to do IMO is to keep your eyes open
*everywhere* you think you might see one advertised: auction and estate sale
listings in your local newspaper, craigslist, eBay, even here on the
newsgroup. That's how I got mine -- a fellow wRecker (thanks, Jeff!) upgraded
to a larger shaper, and offered his Powermatic for sale here.

I was thinking about getting a router for my table saw router extension.
But didn't know if I could get a reasonably quiet one because they all are
brush motor units and tend to be more noisy than induction. But a shaper
might hold router bits and do table router and shaper jobs a bit quieter ,
my guess.

Quieter, yes -- but not as well. Shaper spindles spin at about half the speed
of router motors, so a router bit used on a shaper will not give as clean a
cut as the same bit used in a good-quality router.

They do different jobs. There's some overlap, but they're not interchangeable.

Also is there a (quiet) router available?

No.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

People don't part with high quality stuff often , maybe an estate sale?

I bought an old Delta 1hp for $125. Guy bought it thinking he could use it
as a jointer. When he found out that didn't work very well it just sat in
his basement for 15 years.
I found it didn't substitute for a router table, and sold it for $175.

Hint, they don't replace router tables or jointers; but are available.

"Ghamph" wrote in
:

Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor for less than $500 ?
Jamffer



A contractor friend of mine recently bought a used shaper in that price
range. Well kept older Delta Rockwell. The private party seller had
several of them from a smallish family business of some sort.

I've never wanted one, for my own use. I could be wrong, or just have too
small a working space in the garage.

Patriarch

"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 136...
"Ghamph" wrote in
:

Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor for less than $500 ?
Jamffer



A contractor friend of mine recently bought a used shaper in that price
range. Well kept older Delta Rockwell. The private party seller had
several of them from a smallish family business of some sort.

I've never wanted one, for my own use. I could be wrong, or just have too
small a working space in the garage.

Patriarch

Yea , I hear ya on the space thing. I'll probably get a good powerful
router for my saw ext. table.
I need to save money for bits. Kind of pricey.
Jamffer

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
What's the quietest router , if you know?

One that's turned off.

Seriously, it's kind of like asking "what's the quietest jackhammer?"
Anything
with a 25,000 rpm motor is going to make a lot of noise. In my mind,
there's
not really much of a difference between "obnoxiously noisy" and
"unbearably
noisy"; you need ear protection in either case. And if your shop is in
your
garage, don't run the router at 11pm with the overhead door open, like the
guy
across the street did a few years ago -- tends to bug your neighbors a
bit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)


The Makita RF1101, 2-1/4 HP router is one of the quietest (81 dB)

It's difficult to find stats for db.
One claimed to be whisper quiet but I'm skeptical.
Jamffer

The others have addressed one vs. the other, and the noise should be
addressed with a good set of muffs, or plugs with the highest NR rating you
can buy.
Noise induced hearing loss is a most easily prevented disabilty.
OSHA says 85dbA can be safely tolerated for 8 hrs... each additional 5 dbA
cuts the time in half.
A Snapper 28" riding mower at full throttle with the blade engaged measured
102dbA 4" from the engine (rider ear height)... safe exposure time was less
than required to mow the lawn!
I don't have it at my finger tips, but posted here once the levels of a
variety of woodworking machines (the tailed kind). Most generate enough
noise to warrant protection, and the newer muffs with a mike that shuts down
when excessive noise allow communication or just awareness when safe, and
protect when needed.
Mine won't let me hear my hand clap... just the echo!
Tom

"Ghamph" wrote in message
...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
snippage

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

People don't part with high quality stuff often , maybe an estate sale?
I was thinking about getting a router for my table saw router extension.
But didn't know if I could get a reasonably quiet one because they all are
brush motor units and tend to be more noisy than induction. But a shaper
might hold router bits and do table router and shaper jobs a bit quieter ,
my guess.
Also is there a (quiet) router available?
Jamffer

So I guess that a good variable/sp router is the best way to go.

I'd agree with that - MUCH more versatile than a shaper. If money is
your main concern, Amazon shows a Hitachi 3.25hp for $160 and a Makita
3.25hp for $200. I have a Dewalt 2.25HP, and I've never bogged it
down, but I haven't done any panel-raising or anything with really big
bits.
$500 is a lot for bits if you buy them all at once, but I've easily
accumulated at least a couple hundred dollars worth - buy them as you
need them and I can't imagine you'll need $500 up front for bits.
Check out the recent Fine Woodworking magazine for a comparison of
several major brands.
I'd highly recommend that you thoughtfully peruse patwarner.com - LOTS
of info on routers, and he's a regular poster here.
Andy

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?
Quieter, yes -- but not as well. Shaper spindles spin at about half the
speed
of router motors, so a router bit used on a shaper will not give as clean
a
cut as the same bit used in a good-quality router.

They do different jobs. There's some overlap, but they're not
interchangeable.

Also is there a (quiet) router available?

No.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

I guess I just don't agree with you . I have both and the shaper does a
smoother job. The bits are 3 cutter bits and the mass of the machine is just
better.

The router does a goos job for some things but when it comes to raising
panels or cope and stick door making, the shaper is my preference.





It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Tom Bunetta" wrote in message
.. .
The others have addressed one vs. the other, and the noise should be
addressed with a good set of muffs, or plugs with the highest NR rating
you
can buy.


The Makita RF1101, 2-1/4 HP router is one of the quietest (81 dB)
2 others I seen said they were 93 db and the other 98 db. The difference
between 81 db and 98 db is very significant.
One other router said that it was whisper quiet Hmm that sounds suspicious.

I have good muffs and a db meter and tinnitus from 25 years of rock band
work.
It's difficult to get db levels for various machines online.
My 3/8" drill is quiet 68 db my drill press is 50 db wood lathe is 52 db
running 80 db cutting.
Band saw is 86 db but tablesaw is 89 run and 100+ cutting. All measured at
normal head operation distance.
Shopvac was 105 db before and 60 db after I built soundproof case.
Anything much over 80 db I wear muffs.
Jamffer

"Lowell Holmes" wrote in message
news:FsQZh.4456$st3.3206@trnddc06...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?
Quieter, yes -- but not as well. Shaper spindles spin at about half the
speed
of router motors, so a router bit used on a shaper will not give as clean
a
cut as the same bit used in a good-quality router.

They do different jobs. There's some overlap, but they're not
interchangeable.

Also is there a (quiet) router available?

No.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

I guess I just don't agree with you . I have both and the shaper does a
smoother job. The bits are 3 cutter bits and the mass of the machine is
just better.

The router does a goos job for some things but when it comes to raising
panels or cope and stick door making, the shaper is my preference.


I think Lowell and Doug are talking about things a bit differently... If I'm
reading this right Doug was referring to using router bits in a shaper and
Lowell was referring to using shaper cutters in the shaper and router bits
in the router. From that respect I think they're both right. I've got a
router table for router bits and a shaper for shaper cutters... The surface
speed of the larger diameter shaper cutters is not much different than that
of the router bits in a router.

"Ghamph" wrote in message
...

The Makita RF1101, 2-1/4 HP router is one of the quietest (81 dB)

It's difficult to find stats for db.
One claimed to be whisper quiet but I'm skeptical.
Jamffer



Actually that router has been reported to be relatively quiet, and by
comparison to many routers the Bosch 1617EVS when not run at top speed is
pretty quiet. Once the bit hits the wood the question should shift to
what's the quietest bit. '~)

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Ghamph" wrote in message
...

The Makita RF1101, 2-1/4 HP router is one of the quietest (81 dB)

It's difficult to find stats for db.
One claimed to be whisper quiet but I'm skeptical.
Jamffer



Actually that router has been reported to be relatively quiet, and by
comparison to many routers the Bosch 1617EVS when not run at top speed is
pretty quiet. Once the bit hits the wood the question should shift to
what's the quietest bit. '~)


Exactly , and how large or thick the wood and how well it's secured from
vibrating.
Will need muffs in any event.
Jamffer

On May 1, 2:24 pm, "Ghamph" wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction motor
for less than $500 ?
Jamffer

They're different machines. The whole philosophy is different.
It's a .50 caliber vs a 7.62 mm.
When you look into what's going on when you're cutting material,
you'll find that there's a benefit to having a lot of mass behind your
cutters.
But none of that matters when you're doing a 1/4" round-over. In fact,
the variety of bits for a router is far greater, for way less money
than similar patterns for a shaper. Also, a small bit in a shaper,
when using an adaptor for routerbits...naaaa..doesn't work that well..
the wee bits need revs.. or you're gonna be all day.
Quality shaper cutters are expensive.
For 90% (I just pulled that number out of my butt) of the work I do, a
router is the way to go. In either a table, or hand-held.
But for putting those bull-noses on a rack of oak stair treads, I'll
take a shaper...with a power feeder.
If you can only have one...a quality router.
But that's just me.
I'd love a nice shaper. had one before, loved it. made thousands of
feet of t&g boards with it. damn thing ran all day, 2 shifts. A router
would be a poor choice for that kinda work.

A 50 caliber takes out the engine block.
A 7.62 mm takes out the driver.


FWIW

r

Robatoy wrote:

But for putting those bull-noses on a rack of oak stair treads, I'll
take a shaper...with a power feeder.

That power feeder makes all the difference between a tool that can do
the job and a "widow maker", IMHO.

Lew

On May 1, 10:09 pm, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

But for putting those bull-noses on a rack of oak stair treads, I'll
take a shaper...with a power feeder.

That power feeder makes all the difference between a tool that can do
the job and a "widow maker", IMHO.

For sure. I like them on table saws as well, but they're a pain to set
up.
On a shaper....it's a must.

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Lowell Holmes" wrote in message
news:FsQZh.4456$st3.3206@trnddc06...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Ghamph"
wrote:
I think Lowell and Doug are talking about things a bit differently... If
I'm reading this right Doug was referring to using router bits in a shaper
and Lowell was referring to using shaper cutters in the shaper and router
bits in the router. From that respect I think they're both right. I've got
a router table for router bits and a shaper for shaper cutters... The
surface speed of the larger diameter shaper cutters is not much different
than that of the router bits in a router.

Yes,
I mis-read Doug's post. I can't use router bits on my Rockwell shaper
(1970's version), so using router bits on a shaper is something I was
un-aware of.

I can tell you my 1 hp 1970's shaper is much superior for door making than
my routers in a table are. I have PC 690, DW610 and DW620, they are good
routers.

I have two sets of door cutters for my shaper, a Rockwell cove and bead and
a Bosch ovolo. They just really do a smooth job. The bits are much more
expensive that router bits. They are pretty much a lifetime investment
though.

"Ghamph" wrote in
:


"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 136...
"Ghamph" wrote in
:

Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an
induction motor for less than $500 ?
Jamffer



A contractor friend of mine recently bought a used shaper in that
price range. Well kept older Delta Rockwell. The private party
seller had several of them from a smallish family business of some
sort.

I've never wanted one, for my own use. I could be wrong, or just
have too small a working space in the garage.

Patriarch

Yea , I hear ya on the space thing. I'll probably get a good powerful
router for my saw ext. table.
I need to save money for bits. Kind of pricey.
Jamffer




The thing on bits is to remember that, for the most part, they
accumulate as needed. Nobody, in a hobby shop at least, should go drop
$500 on a drawer full of bits. Buy them as you need them.

Or buy a box of the $5 each bits when Woodcraft has their sale, and
cover the immediate needs.

A good door set, or a cope & stick bit set, is going to cost you anyway.
But buy it when you need it, not up front. Tell SWMBO it's part of the
project cost, if she asks.

Patriarch

Ghamph wrote:
But a shaper
might hold router bits and do table router and shaper jobs a bit quieter ,
my guess.

Shapers typically go too slow for all but the largest router bits.

I wish everyone were as cautious...
I fit hearing aids to so many who weren't or didn't know better. They're not
as good as the real thing.
Tom

"Ghamph" wrote in message
...

"Tom Bunetta" wrote in message
.. .
snipped
normal head operation distance.
Shopvac was 105 db before and 60 db after I built soundproof case.
Anything much over 80 db I wear muffs.
Jamffer

In article . net, "John Grossbohlin" wrote:

I think Lowell and Doug are talking about things a bit differently... If I'm
reading this right Doug was referring to using router bits in a shaper and
Lowell was referring to using shaper cutters in the shaper and router bits
in the router.

Exactly.

From that respect I think they're both right. I've got a
router table for router bits and a shaper for shaper cutters... The surface
speed of the larger diameter shaper cutters is not much different than that
of the router bits in a router.

Quite right, and in my experience the smoothness of cuts made by a shaper
using shaper cutters, and that of cuts made by a router using router bits, are
quite comparable.

For small or one-of-a-kind jobs, my preference is for the router in most
cases, largely because router bits are typically *much* cheaper than shaper
cutters. OTOH, for large or repetitive jobs, I prefer the shaper: it's
quieter and faster, and the dust collection is much better.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 1, 2:24 pm, "Ghamph" wrote:
Is there a shaper that would do the jobs of router with an induction
motor
for less than $500 ?
Jamffer

They're different machines. The whole philosophy is different.
It's a .50 caliber vs a 7.62 mm.
When you look into what's going on when you're cutting material,
you'll find that there's a benefit to having a lot of mass behind your
cutters.
But none of that matters when you're doing a 1/4" round-over. In fact,
the variety of bits for a router is far greater, for way less money
than similar patterns for a shaper. Also, a small bit in a shaper,
when using an adaptor for routerbits...naaaa..doesn't work that well..
the wee bits need revs.. or you're gonna be all day.
Quality shaper cutters are expensive.
For 90% (I just pulled that number out of my butt) of the work I do, a
router is the way to go. In either a table, or hand-held.
But for putting those bull-noses on a rack of oak stair treads, I'll
take a shaper...with a power feeder.
If you can only have one...a quality router.
But that's just me.
I'd love a nice shaper. had one before, loved it. made thousands of
feet of t&g boards with it. damn thing ran all day, 2 shifts. A router
would be a poor choice for that kinda work.

A 50 caliber takes out the engine block.
A 7.62 mm takes out the driver.


FWIW

r


folks talking about mass etc ......

Horse power can be defined as 2 pie NT/33000 where N = RPM and T =
torque

So the difference between a 3 HP router and a 3HP shaper is the router has
lots of RPM and relatively low torque [low torque the cutting edge] while
the router has low RPM and high torque [higher torque at the cutter].

Seems to me differences torques even out in the end as torque being force
times distance basic router bits operate at a much smaller radius than
shaper cutters so the actual cutting force tends to even out .

Using this logic a router using large diameter bits requires more torque and
will bog down if the feed rate is not reduced so the machine is not to stall
.. So in my mind the router using large diameter bits is not operating
efficiently, and not only that but as a personal preference, the more power
the less control , I would rather be a couple of feet away using a shaper
and a power feed than inches away from a thumping great router running at
20K revs .....mjh