My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.

Last year his car would begin down the track with the other cars in a
tight group or even a bit ahead. As the car hit the straight away it
would slow down significantly as the other cars shot away. Each Scout
runs 4 races (1 on each track) and every race was the same. The
outcome was the same this year, except that 2 other cars happened to be
a bit slower.

Does this sound like an issue of weight placement? Is this what the
car would do if there was too much weight towards the back of the car?

The material on the Web seems to be contradictory. The average advice
seems to be to place as much of the weight as possible towards the
back. One web site qualified this by saying that you should not put
the additional weight any further back than the rear axle. The Pack
information recommended weight centered around 1/2" to 1 " towards the
rear from the midpoint between the axles. Another web site recommended
the weight be centered 1/2 to 2/3 back towards the rear axle.

Last year I had read some old advice that was apparently applicable to
the old S tracks and we had placed a lot of weight in the back. This
year we tried to avoid that. We used a 2 oz bar weight countersunk
between the axles. We also drilled holes on each side about 1/2 inch
forward of the rear axle to add more weight. Since we were still
short, we drilled 3 holes in the back and added more weight there. We
ended up weighing in at 141.74 grams. I am afraid that the extra
weight in the back tipped the center of gravity too far back, but I
just do not know for sure.

We would appreciate any help or advice.

Thanks.

Jim

"Jim" wrote in message

We would appreciate any help or advice.

My advice on the entire "Pinewood Derby" issue:

Buy the cars in bulk, factory made and shipped to the scout hut under armed
guard so no parent could figure out how to get an edge; let each cub pick
out his racer, blindfolded ...then go straight to the starting line.

Thrill in victory, and participation, no agony in defeat ... and a good time
was had by all.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/06/07

Jim wrote:
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.

Last year his car would begin down the track with the other cars in a
tight group or even a bit ahead. As the car hit the straight away it
would slow down significantly as the other cars shot away. Each Scout
runs 4 races (1 on each track) and every race was the same. The
outcome was the same this year, except that 2 other cars happened to be
a bit slower.

Does this sound like an issue of weight placement? Is this what the
car would do if there was too much weight towards the back of the car?

The material on the Web seems to be contradictory. The average advice
seems to be to place as much of the weight as possible towards the
back. One web site qualified this by saying that you should not put
the additional weight any further back than the rear axle. The Pack
information recommended weight centered around 1/2" to 1 " towards the
rear from the midpoint between the axles. Another web site recommended
the weight be centered 1/2 to 2/3 back towards the rear axle.

Last year I had read some old advice that was apparently applicable to
the old S tracks and we had placed a lot of weight in the back. This
year we tried to avoid that. We used a 2 oz bar weight countersunk
between the axles. We also drilled holes on each side about 1/2 inch
forward of the rear axle to add more weight. Since we were still
short, we drilled 3 holes in the back and added more weight there. We
ended up weighing in at 141.74 grams. I am afraid that the extra
weight in the back tipped the center of gravity too far back, but I
just do not know for sure.

We would appreciate any help or advice.


I am puzzled also about weight placement. I have 2 sons who were in
the derby race yesterday. This year we put the cg about 1 inch forward
of rear axle. Last year 1 inch aft of front axle. No difference in
number of races won or speed noticable between years. This year we
polished the axles on one and not the other and treated the wheels the
same yet on the heat where they raced against each other they tied,
twice since the first time they could not tell a winner but on the
second race the third car won. One car won 4 out of 9 and the other
(with polished axles I might add) won 1 out of 9 races. I tend to
think it is pure luck but there are 3 families whose kids always place
in the top 5 or 6 out of 35 or so every year. They claim they do not
do anything excessive except make sure the car runs straight. We are
friends so I believe them.

Thanks.

Jim

A rock will go down a slope with not too much persuasion. I would think
that your wheels are the problem.

"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.


I have story about last years pinewood derby.....

My 8 year old son bought the kit, and I totally forgot about. He wakes me up
at 8am on a saturday morning, saying "Dad, the derby is today, we forgot to
make my car"... great, we have to be there at 11am.

Most of my tools are over at a house I am rehabbing, about 30 minutes away.
Just going over there would take up at least an hour. So I see what I have
on hand. I have a cordless drill, a hammer, some nuts, washers and bolts, a
jig saw and a dremel tool, and some old red door paint and some brown spray
paint in the shed.

My son says Yugioh uses red and brown colors, and he has some yugioh
stickers. Ok, that solves that. I go ahead and draw a rough futuristic car
shape on the block of wood and cut it out with the jig saw, sand it down and
shape it further with the dremel tool and a sanding wheel.

Of course I have no scale at the house capable of measuring the weight of
the car in oz, so I have to devise someway to easily change the weight, so I
drill in hole in the "back window" and screw in a bolt with about 10 washers
on it.

I paint the car red with the door paint, and then do a faded two tone with
the brown spray paint. Boy was it ugly, but my kid thought it was pretty
cool. I had my son stand there with a hair dryer on it until it was dry
(enough) and he added his stickers, then I attached the wheels.

We get there just in time, I proceed to weight in the car, it's weigh
overweight, easy enough, brought a wrench with me and removed some washers.
After getting the weight just right, I used some graphite on the wheels.

There were about 70 cars competing, my son won 1st place. I don't think I
have ever seen him so happy. I was the hero for at least one day.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.


I have story about last years pinewood derby.....

My 8 year old son bought the kit, and I totally forgot about. He wakes me
up at 8am on a saturday morning, saying "Dad, the derby is today, we
forgot to make my car"... great, we have to be there at 11am.

Most of my tools are over at a house I am rehabbing, about 30 minutes
away. Just going over there would take up at least an hour. So I see what
I have on hand. I have a cordless drill, a hammer, some nuts, washers and
bolts, a jig saw and a dremel tool, and some old red door paint and some
brown spray paint in the shed.

My son says Yugioh uses red and brown colors, and he has some yugioh
stickers. Ok, that solves that. I go ahead and draw a rough futuristic car
shape on the block of wood and cut it out with the jig saw, sand it down
and shape it further with the dremel tool and a sanding wheel.

Of course I have no scale at the house capable of measuring the weight of
the car in oz, so I have to devise someway to easily change the weight, so
I drill in hole in the "back window" and screw in a bolt with about 10
washers on it.

I paint the car red with the door paint, and then do a faded two tone with
the brown spray paint. Boy was it ugly, but my kid thought it was pretty
cool. I had my son stand there with a hair dryer on it until it was dry
(enough) and he added his stickers, then I attached the wheels.

We get there just in time, I proceed to weight in the car, it's weigh
overweight, easy enough, brought a wrench with me and removed some
washers. After getting the weight just right, I used some graphite on the
wheels.

There were about 70 cars competing, my son won 1st place. I don't think I
have ever seen him so happy. I was the hero for at least one day.
So, are you saying it is mostly luck, or that you are incredibly good?
I thought it was mostly luck, until someone won 2 years in a row.

Swingman wrote:

Buy the cars in bulk, factory made and shipped to the scout hut under armed
guard so no parent could figure out how to get an edge; let each cub pick
out his racer, blindfolded ...then go straight to the starting line.

Thrill in victory, and participation, no agony in defeat ... and a good time
was had by all.

Amen. I remember in the early 60s when The Derby was big... really
big. And SUPPOSED to be a an event between scouts. Sure, a little
help from Dad, but just guidance. We all built our cars and had a
great time looking at each other's work... you remember... the left
over decals from models stuck on the sides, chunks knocked out of the
wood bodies from using your boy scout knife too aggressively, paint
where it shouldn't be...

Then the Dads took over. The cars looked great, no more airplane
decals on your car - just car decals, there were paint schemes, not
just painted cars, and the nails that were the axles were replaced with
piano wire. A glued on washer or fishing weight was replaced by a
precise hole filled with molten lead. Eventually it It got so bad that
even the Dads thought it was ridiculous, so instead of backing off....

THEY FORMED THEIR OWN COMPETITION!

And those sorry asses (mine included) ran their competitions on the
same night at the same meeting as ours. They had their own categories
inside the event (best design, best paint, most original) and they even
had a huge trophy for the race winner. Eventually there was so much to
the Dad's portion of the derby that all but a couple of us quit making
cars and let them have it.

I know there were a lot of guys that have similar experiences as I have
been in many, many houses over the years that proudly display "their
son's" *wink*wink* car right next to their Dad's. When I have seen
only one car in the display case, I know of no 10 - 12 year old that
could have done the things I have seen.

I know many feel your kids would be scarred forever for losing, so you
feel like you have to participate to make the cars as good as you can.
But I don't really think it has been about the kids for a few decades.
This is not a jab at Locutus, but reading his post, what did his son do
to participate? What was his part? He isn't even mentioned in the
whole process (except to select paint) again until the end where
ownership of the car makes him the winner.

So I like Swingman's idea a lot. Give them a box of stickers to
personalize the cars and let 'em have at it. I think the kiddos are a
lot more resilient than they get credit for. If they had 30 minutes to
customize a car before running the race and that represented the prep
part of the competition, I think all would be fine, win or lose. And
then they could enjoy the racing with their friends, admiring each
other's cars, and eating hot dogs and pizza.

Robert

On 22 Jan 2007 13:05:31 -0800, "Jim" wrote:

My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.

Last year his car would begin down the track with the other cars in a
tight group or even a bit ahead. As the car hit the straight away it
would slow down significantly as the other cars shot away. Each Scout
runs 4 races (1 on each track) and every race was the same. The
outcome was the same this year, except that 2 other cars happened to be
a bit slower.

Does this sound like an issue of weight placement? Is this what the
car would do if there was too much weight towards the back of the car?

The material on the Web seems to be contradictory. The average advice
seems to be to place as much of the weight as possible towards the
back. One web site qualified this by saying that you should not put
the additional weight any further back than the rear axle. The Pack
information recommended weight centered around 1/2" to 1 " towards the
rear from the midpoint between the axles. Another web site recommended
the weight be centered 1/2 to 2/3 back towards the rear axle.

Last year I had read some old advice that was apparently applicable to
the old S tracks and we had placed a lot of weight in the back. This
year we tried to avoid that. We used a 2 oz bar weight countersunk
between the axles. We also drilled holes on each side about 1/2 inch
forward of the rear axle to add more weight. Since we were still
short, we drilled 3 holes in the back and added more weight there. We
ended up weighing in at 141.74 grams. I am afraid that the extra
weight in the back tipped the center of gravity too far back, but I
just do not know for sure.

We would appreciate any help or advice.

Thanks.

Jim


We race on a forty foot Piantedosi wood track, with a starting pin
height of about 45", and the slope runs out flat at about 12' on a
level line from the pins. The pin to finish line distance is about
35' measured on the track.

We use tungsten weights that come in 3/8" d. cylinders and we drill
the car body out, starting on the centerline of the car and running
parallel to the centerline for one row on either side of it. The
drilled holes have about 1/8" between each and they are drilled to
depth with a forstner bit on the drill press.

We insert the weights into the center line of holes and attempt to get
the car to five ounces, with one ounce riding on the front axles. We
set the weights to be flush with the bottom of the car.

We straighten the axles in a press and hammer the nail head into the
press so that it is square to the shaft, and then file off the webbing
below the nail head. Then we lightly file the underside of the nail
head into a coned shape.

Then we insert the axle into the drill press and polish it with
wet-or-dry abrasive, starting at 600 grit and moving through the grits
to a finish with 1 micron polishing cloth. We wipe them down with
alcohol and put them in a baggie with a powdered graphite/moly
lubricant. We treat the underside of the nail head the same as we do
the shaft.

We use a jig on the drill press to bring the wheels into round and
then treat the tread with the same regimen of abrasives. We cone the
bore of the wheels and we polish with the same set of abrasives. We
use the same abrasives on the area of the wheel that contacts the
underside of the axle. We polish the inside edge of the wheels with
the same abrasives and then we take a rag and push graphite/moly into
the surfaces of the coned hub, flat face, treads, etc. We use a piece
of drill rod and some liquid abrasive to polish the interior of the
bore. Then we clean out the wheels with compressed air, then swab
with denatured. Then we put the wheels in a baggie that has some
graphite/moly in it and shake them up, then let them sit overnight -
they come out a cool looking graphite gray and - we hope - the
graphite gets into some of the crans and nookies.

We drill holes in the body at the bottoms of the axle slots, so that
the axles will go in straight. We load the wheel hubs up with
graphite/moly and push the axles through, trying to keep as much
lubricant in the bore as we can. We push the axles into the body
until the wheel bores are 1/32" away from the body. Then we spin the
wheels for a bit using the air compressor to direct a stream of air
over the wheel to make it spin.

Then we set the car on a piece of plywood that is eight feet long and
set to a five degree slope, being level side to side. We put a dot on
the twelve o clock position of the axle head and we turn each axle a
quarter turn at a time until the car can run a straight line over
eight feet.

We then run the air compressor over each wheel until we think the lube
is gone and test the car for straight again. A little more tweaking
to make it straight. Then we pack it with lube and we're ready to
race.

The boy ran third out of fifty his first year and second last year.
Then he went to the Districts and ran third out of 150.



To answer your question - I think that you have a friction problem, or
an alignment problem, rather than a weight problem.

I'd pay a lot of attention to the alignment.















Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Jim wrote:
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers.

First my credentials: My son's cars won first place at the pack level
3 years in a row. One of those years he raced against more than 90
other cars in a double elimination tournament such as you describe.
The other two years he raced against probably 40 cars. Perhaps
coincidentally, I have an engineering degree.

Assuming your weight is close to the maximum 5 ounces, I think only one
thing can cause a car to run that slow - friction at the wheels and
axles.

Forget about aerodynamics. The car is going less than 12 miles per
hour and aerodynamics plays a small part at that speed. It may make a
difference between first and second, but not between first and last.


Forget about fine-tuning weight placement. It may get to be an issue
among the fastest 2 or 3 cars, but not among the slowest. You don't
want the front end to be so light that it leaves the ground at the
track joints. You don't want it so heavy that the car can't steer
itself easily. Other than those issues, I don't think it's very
important.

Spend your time and energy on wheels and axles. Look closely at the
nail that comes in your kit. It has a spur under the head that wants
to dig into the plastic wheel and stop it from turning. The part of
the axle that the wheel rides on needs to be soooo smooth it shines
like a mirror. There are lots of ways to get there. I chucked the
axle up in a cordless drill and had my boy run the drill while I
applied:
1. A small file to the offending spurs under the head.
2. Narrow strips of sandpaper starting with 300 grit and progressing
to 800 grit.
3. Jeweler's rouge applied on a felt wheel spun by a Dremel Tool while
the axle was spinning in the drill.
We probably spent 30 minutes on each axle. If the axle is a little
smaller in diameter where the wheel runs on it, that's a good thing.

Don''t ignore the wheels. The running surface of the wheel needs to be
as smooth as a baby's bottom. Chuck the wheel hub in a drill and sand,
then polish the plastic. It will take a high gloss if you polish it.
Find a way to polish the inside of the hub where it runs on the axle.
I found that the shank of a Dremel bit is just the right size, but
DON'T spin the bit in the hub, you'll get it out of round. Instead,
put a little grinding compound or jeweler's rouge on the shank and spin
the wheel on the shank. I used an air blower to spin the wheel at high
speed. Wash the wheel with lots of hot water to be sure you get all
the abrasives out.

Adjust the tracking by bending axles as needed so that the car rolls
straight when pushed across the floor. You don't want the car to scrub
of speed by hugging the center rail all the way down the track.

Lube the axles with graphite lubricant.

If you do all those things, I can't promise a win, but you shouldn't be
embarassed.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

"Tom Watson" wrote in message We race on a forty foot
Piantedosi wood track, with a starting pin
height of about 45", and the slope runs out flat at about 12' on a
level line from the pins. The pin to finish line distance is about
35' measured on the track.

We use tungsten weights that come in 3/8" d. cylinders and we drill
the car body out, starting on the centerline of the car and running
parallel to the centerline for one row on either side of it. The
drilled holes have about 1/8" between each and they are drilled to
depth with a forstner bit on the drill press.

We insert the weights into the center line of holes and attempt to get
the car to five ounces, with one ounce riding on the front axles. We
set the weights to be flush with the bottom of the car.

We straighten the axles in a press and hammer the nail head into the
press so that it is square to the shaft, and then file off the webbing
below the nail head. Then we lightly file the underside of the nail
head into a coned shape.

Then we insert the axle into the drill press and polish it with
wet-or-dry abrasive, starting at 600 grit and moving through the grits
to a finish with 1 micron polishing cloth. We wipe them down with
alcohol and put them in a baggie with a powdered graphite/moly
lubricant. We treat the underside of the nail head the same as we do
the shaft.

We use a jig on the drill press to bring the wheels into round and
then treat the tread with the same regimen of abrasives. We cone the
bore of the wheels and we polish with the same set of abrasives. We
use the same abrasives on the area of the wheel that contacts the
underside of the axle. We polish the inside edge of the wheels with
the same abrasives and then we take a rag and push graphite/moly into
the surfaces of the coned hub, flat face, treads, etc. We use a piece
of drill rod and some liquid abrasive to polish the interior of the
bore. Then we clean out the wheels with compressed air, then swab
with denatured. Then we put the wheels in a baggie that has some
graphite/moly in it and shake them up, then let them sit overnight -
they come out a cool looking graphite gray and - we hope - the
graphite gets into some of the crans and nookies.

We drill holes in the body at the bottoms of the axle slots, so that
the axles will go in straight. We load the wheel hubs up with
graphite/moly and push the axles through, trying to keep as much
lubricant in the bore as we can. We push the axles into the body
until the wheel bores are 1/32" away from the body. Then we spin the
wheels for a bit using the air compressor to direct a stream of air
over the wheel to make it spin.

Then we set the car on a piece of plywood that is eight feet long and
set to a five degree slope, being level side to side. We put a dot on
the twelve o clock position of the axle head and we turn each axle a
quarter turn at a time until the car can run a straight line over
eight feet.

We then run the air compressor over each wheel until we think the lube
is gone and test the car for straight again. A little more tweaking
to make it straight. Then we pack it with lube and we're ready to
race.

The boy ran third out of fifty his first year and second last year.
Then he went to the Districts and ran third out of 150.

To answer your question - I think that you have a friction problem, or
an alignment problem, rather than a weight problem.

I'd pay a lot of attention to the alignment.


Wheel balancing! And Wheel bearings . . . and machined axles. And,
synthetic bearing lubricants. Tried a taller gear ratio?
~)))))
NuWave Dave in Houston

I think that "luck" is a big part too. 25 years or so ago, my son and I
built ours going by the Dad watches, kid does plan.
Got to the race and it was too heavy. Drilled many holes (some clear
through), Crazy looking thing took first place in a probably 25 car race.
The kids nicknamed it the "Swiss Whiz".

Jim wrote:
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. snip

We would appreciate any help or advice.

Sure - my son's first year. 1st place (64 kids) in each of 4 heats of
all 64 cars, so first over all for the troop. Way, way, fastest car
there. At superderby (top 5 from each pack - 125 cars all) 1st place
after 3 heats, 4th heat rubbed the rail, came in 13th overall. Still
just over .01 seconds for 4 heats between him & #1 overall. The cars
are all fast at regional.

The physics are simple. ALL the energy of the system at the start is
potential energy dependent solely on height & mass. You maximize these
by building the car as long as allowed (7"), car at the maximum height,
with they weight as far back as will maintain stability (cg in front of
rear axle, but close to). However, the difference in stored energy is
relatively small given the parameters, as long as you're at max length
& weight (the change in height of cg is pretty small range).

You said your sons car kept up down the slope. Heading down the slope
is the conversion of potential to kinetic energy (height to velocity).
If you're losing on the flat run it's all friction. Air friction is
negligible. My son's second year we did a football helmut (of wood) on
top of main body. Hilarious looking, wobbled, but amazingly came in
8th overall. Last year, much to my chagrin, he made superderby again
(trust me, once is enough) - but barely and got womped (took 8 hours to
get through, and was obvious this was one of the slower cars). This
year his car is an "arrow" - we haven't even assembled yet.

So what causes the difference - reducing friction. Where he (and other
top cars) all pull away is in the flat run. Ways to reduce friction,
in sort of importance (most to least):

1) trial roll the car, adjusting the axles, until it runs straight. If
it rubs against the center guide rail the entire way ain't gonna be
fast (of course, if the car isn't set up straight, out of your
control).

2) File the burr formed when the nail head is stamped. This will
definitely cause friction, and is easy to remove. A further refinement
is smoothing/truing the axles to a true round, but minor. The wheels
spin on a single area (bottom) of the nail, so as long as that is
smooth should be fine.

3) Remove the "nub" off each wheel where it was injection molded.
Helps to true the wheels as well, although I've always found them
pretty much round.

4) Lubricate w/graphite (all we're allowed) a lot, and spin the wheels
a lot, before the meet.

5) Camber the axles up a few degrees. This causes the wheel to want
to move away from the body. Wheels rubbing against body is bad.
Camber too much though and they push too hard against nail head, again
increasing friction.

6) You can shave (carefully) the profile of the wheels so they run on
an edge, not the whole surface. Note that cambering the axles should
have this effect, and over-profiling the wheels can result in
disqualification.

7) Raise one axle so car runs on 3 wheels. Not so sure. In theory,
less rolling friction (3/4 to be exact...) and no energy stored in
spinning up the 4th wheel. However, if the car wobbles at all, varying
which 3 wheels are touching, I could see this being a net negative as
different wheels would be spinning up/slowing down. Hard enough to get
the damn thing to roll straight on 4 wheels (stay on 4 wheels!!).

8) "Aerodynamics" The first car was pretty much aerodynamic - but
had "shark fins" on the back that didn't help. The 2nd was the
aforementioned football helmut. The 3rd was a "missile laucher" with a
big ass rocket out the front. I don't even remember last year's car
(thank God this is the last). Some guy's cars are professionally
finished - I mean race car lines and a paint job better than my real
car. I prime the car (spray) and my son hand paints whatever he wants.
He also spoke shaves (if needed), rasps, and sands the body before
priming (thus this year we needed a round of Bondo to fix some "design
misfeatures"). Needless to say, 6 - 10 year olds aren't too great with
hand tools and sanding is boring as hell. He used the spokeshave at 6
- it can be done - just need to supervise. They're not the greatest
looking cars, but they run okay because we pay attention to the
fundamentals - max length, weight distribution, reduce the real
friction factors (non-aerodynamic). Any drilling, etc he does. I do
the bandsawing and any chisel work (because the risk of a slip).
Obviously, a 10 yr old whose helped make 4 cars can do a lot more than
a 6 yr old on his first.

On 22 Jan 2007 15:16:38 -0800, wrote:


Swingman wrote:

Buy the cars in bulk, factory made and shipped to the scout hut under armed
guard so no parent could figure out how to get an edge; let each cub pick
out his racer, blindfolded ...then go straight to the starting line.

Thrill in victory, and participation, no agony in defeat ... and a good time
was had by all.

Amen. I remember in the early 60s when The Derby was big... really
big. And SUPPOSED to be a an event between scouts. Sure, a little
help from Dad, but just guidance. We all built our cars and had a
great time looking at each other's work... you remember... the left
over decals from models stuck on the sides, chunks knocked out of the
wood bodies from using your boy scout knife too aggressively, paint
where it shouldn't be...

Then the Dads took over. The cars looked great, no more airplane
decals on your car - just car decals, there were paint schemes, not
just painted cars, and the nails that were the axles were replaced with
piano wire. A glued on washer or fishing weight was replaced by a
precise hole filled with molten lead. Eventually it It got so bad that
even the Dads thought it was ridiculous, so instead of backing off....

THEY FORMED THEIR OWN COMPETITION!

And those sorry asses (mine included) ran their competitions on the
same night at the same meeting as ours. They had their own categories
inside the event (best design, best paint, most original) and they even
had a huge trophy for the race winner. Eventually there was so much to
the Dad's portion of the derby that all but a couple of us quit making
cars and let them have it.

I know there were a lot of guys that have similar experiences as I have
been in many, many houses over the years that proudly display "their
son's" *wink*wink* car right next to their Dad's. When I have seen
only one car in the display case, I know of no 10 - 12 year old that
could have done the things I have seen.

I know many feel your kids would be scarred forever for losing, so you
feel like you have to participate to make the cars as good as you can.
But I don't really think it has been about the kids for a few decades.
This is not a jab at Locutus, but reading his post, what did his son do
to participate? What was his part? He isn't even mentioned in the
whole process (except to select paint) again until the end where
ownership of the car makes him the winner.

So I like Swingman's idea a lot. Give them a box of stickers to
personalize the cars and let 'em have at it. I think the kiddos are a
lot more resilient than they get credit for. If they had 30 minutes to
customize a car before running the race and that represented the prep
part of the competition, I think all would be fine, win or lose. And
then they could enjoy the racing with their friends, admiring each
other's cars, and eating hot dogs and pizza.

It's a funny thing, but there was a time in the US when kids were
allowed to lose, all on their own. Those losers won two world wars,
put a man on the Moon, invented the atomic bomb, and did numerous
other things including creating an economy so powerful that the rest
of the world looked on in awe and terror as its products dominated
their cultures.

Since then, what have the "winners" done? Near as I can tell they
mostly quit the first time things didn't go their way.

My grandson just did it this past weekend, he finished about the same. Somewhere
near last. He had fun though. He called me all upset, because after the race a
wheel broke off. Placing the weights just forward of the rear axle seems to be
the right place.

Chris

Jim wrote:
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.

Last year his car would begin down the track with the other cars in a
tight group or even a bit ahead. As the car hit the straight away it
would slow down significantly as the other cars shot away. Each Scout
runs 4 races (1 on each track) and every race was the same. The
outcome was the same this year, except that 2 other cars happened to be
a bit slower.

Does this sound like an issue of weight placement? Is this what the
car would do if there was too much weight towards the back of the car?

The material on the Web seems to be contradictory. The average advice
seems to be to place as much of the weight as possible towards the
back. One web site qualified this by saying that you should not put
the additional weight any further back than the rear axle. The Pack
information recommended weight centered around 1/2" to 1 " towards the
rear from the midpoint between the axles. Another web site recommended
the weight be centered 1/2 to 2/3 back towards the rear axle.

Last year I had read some old advice that was apparently applicable to
the old S tracks and we had placed a lot of weight in the back. This
year we tried to avoid that. We used a 2 oz bar weight countersunk
between the axles. We also drilled holes on each side about 1/2 inch
forward of the rear axle to add more weight. Since we were still
short, we drilled 3 holes in the back and added more weight there. We
ended up weighing in at 141.74 grams. I am afraid that the extra
weight in the back tipped the center of gravity too far back, but I
just do not know for sure.

We would appreciate any help or advice.

Thanks.

Jim

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:10:52 -0600, "NuWaveDave"
wrote:


Wheel balancing! And Wheel bearings . . . and machined axles. And,
synthetic bearing lubricants. Tried a taller gear ratio?
~)))))
NuWave Dave in Houston


To me, it is the transmission of the concept of craftsmanship.

The same mentality that makes you create a piston fit drawer, a
hermetic dovetail joint, a perfect deep gloss lacquer finish - these
are all created by the repetition of simple processes, and the truth
of success in any of them is - Character.

Going the extra mile. Being unreasoning in your pursuit of
excellence. Doing what needs to be done to make it as good as you
possibly can.

I don't have my boy stand in front of the drill press for an hour to
win this race - I want him to understand what it takes to win his
race, whatever that may turn out to be.

I have been somewhat facile about winning the Derby - I am much less
so about the lessons that the process teaches.

The goal with my son is never actually to beat anyone else but
himself.

Kipling had a great poem about it. I've had my boy memorize it.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote in
:

snip
I have been somewhat facile about winning the Derby - I am much less
so about the lessons that the process teaches.

The goal with my son is never actually to beat anyone else but
himself.


Much more appealing message.

When you get to the point where that son is teaching others how to succeed,
that's when the old man tears up a bit.

It isn't really about cars, is it?

Patriarch

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:49:58 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:



Much more appealing message.

When you get to the point where that son is teaching others how to succeed,
that's when the old man tears up a bit.

It isn't really about cars, is it?

Patriarch


Pat - If you don't mind me turning this discussion over to my betters:


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!


--Rudyard Kipling
Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Toller" wrote in message
...

So, are you saying it is mostly luck, or that you are incredibly good?
I thought it was mostly luck, until someone won 2 years in a row.


heh... I don't know, I like to think it's because I am incredibly good.

Locutus wrote:
"Toller" wrote in message
...

So, are you saying it is mostly luck, or that you are incredibly good?
I thought it was mostly luck, until someone won 2 years in a row.


heh... I don't know, I like to think it's because I am incredibly good.

Luck has very little to do with it when there are several well-tuned
cars in the race. Several times I've seen tounaments that lasted all
day, with one car that crossed the finish line first every single time
it ran. You can't attribute that sort of success to luck.

Having said that . . .every year Fate chooses to smile on some kid who
had little or no help. He takes the nails out of the box and pounds
them in with a hammer. The heavenly bodies all line up in the proper
orientation, and his car does very well, but it still doesn't beat the
ones with polished axles and turned wheels. The rest of those kids
usually suffer a different fate. I've seen several cars that stopped
before they got to the finish line.

I've held work days in my shop with my tools and assistance to try to
help some of these boys be more competitive. But they aren't the ones
who show up. None of the single mothers or non-technical dads bring
their kids. It's the young dads who are sure they know how to build a
fast car, they just need the tools to do it.

In the end, somebody has to be last in every competition. I didn't
contribute the genes or the tutoring to allow my boy to be good at
football, baseball, basketball or soccer. He certainly knows the agony
of being last in those areas. But I can show him how to build a fast
pinewood car.


DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

All,

Thank you for your replies, especially those with very detailed advice
and instruction. The consensus seems to be that we had a friction
problem of one sort or another. I tend to think that that may indeed
have been the case as we spent no time this year on checking to see if
the car was going straight or not. The primary reason for that was
that we had nothing but frustration last year in trying to get the car
to roll straight across the kitchen floor. The tip about putting it on
a slightly angled board is a good one. Both years we did chuck the
axles in the Dremel and polished the shaft and the underside of the
head with steel wool. We do not have a small file, but I did use a
utility knife last year to shave off the burr underneath the head.
This year I could not see any burrs underneath the head, so we only
applied the steel wool to the shaft and underside of the head. We also
sanded the wheels by hand, but no turning by Dremel or otherwise.
Apparently we need to do a much more thorough job in this area.

For lubrication both year we used the Dry Lube sold by the Council
Shop. It sounds like graphite is a much better solution, if used
sparingly.

To those who replied with messages emphasizing the life concepts at
issue here, I appreciate your words as well. We certainly are not out
to win, but simply to do our best. We do not feel that we have done
our best yet. We have neither the time nor money to go overboard on
this, but it is much more fun to have a car that at least hangs with
the others. To do this day my son will tell you that he had fun in
both years, but building the car and participating in and watching the
race. He would like to add to that fun by finishing even better. He
is fascinated by what aspects we might be able to change or tweak to
improve the car for next year. He is ready to start again now! To
that end...

I have two practical questions to help us with improving our
performance:

1. How can we test our car at home without spending a fortune on our
own track? I have access to a scale, but the only affordable test
track that I can find is a single lane 30 foot track on eBay. Since we
have two very slow cars, it would great to be able to test a new
against them. The 8 foot board is an excellent idea. Are there other
affordable alternatives?

2. On the subject of bending the axles, this is where our frustration
came in last year. We would push the car across the kitchen floor and
try to bend the axles by hand to adjust them. However, that was simply
pressing them against the wood of the axle groove, so of course they
probably did not stay bent. We have the alignment/camber/measuring
tool that is sold in the Council Shop and we did make use of it this
year. We did have a hard time finding an effective way to straighten
the axle slots. A drill press is obviously needed. Nevertheless, how
do you bend the axles themselves?

Thanks for all of your help. This is still a fun process for us both
and we are looking forward to our next car project.

Jim

"Jim" wrote in news:1169565701.609099.145250
@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

*snip*

1. How can we test our car at home without spending a fortune on our
own track? I have access to a scale, but the only affordable test
track that I can find is a single lane 30 foot track on eBay. Since we
have two very slow cars, it would great to be able to test a new
against them. The 8 foot board is an excellent idea. Are there other
affordable alternatives?


*snip*

From what I remember about my two (and only two) pinewood derby races is
the track had a raised section that made the actual "track" You could do
this with a piece of 1/4" plywood, ripped to a little under the width of
the car spacing (or find out what the official width is if they use that
style) and with a square and some geometry (maybe) you can lay two tracks
on a board to race against each other.

Cut a piece of plywood in half (2' x 8') or quarters (1' x 8') and you
can make a longer run. You'll want to support it with 1x4s minimum.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On 22 Jan 2007 15:16:38 -0800, wrote:

I know many feel your kids would be scarred forever for losing, so you
feel like you have to participate to make the cars as good as you can.
But I don't really think it has been about the kids for a few decades.
This is not a jab at Locutus, but reading his post, what did his son do
to participate? What was his part? He isn't even mentioned in the
whole process (except to select paint) again until the end where
ownership of the car makes him the winner.

So I like Swingman's idea a lot. Give them a box of stickers to
personalize the cars and let 'em have at it. I think the kiddos are a
lot more resilient than they get credit for. If they had 30 minutes to
customize a car before running the race and that represented the prep
part of the competition, I think all would be fine, win or lose. And
then they could enjoy the racing with their friends, admiring each
other's cars, and eating hot dogs and pizza.

Agreed, and I'll add this- it deviates from the pinewood derby a
little, but not as much as a guy might think.

We have to stop insulating people from failure. Too many people never
learn because they're sheltered until they're too old, and then the
first time it happens when they hit the real world, they crack like an
egg. I know a whole lot of people who are unwilling to risk
*anything* because they might fail- I would hope that the scouts would
have an interest in helping those kids involved learn to "Be Prepared"
for the inevitable disappointments they're bound to encounter from
time to time, and it would seem that a wooden car race would be a fine
way to do that in a controlled setting. It's not the Special
Olympics, after all. Let those kids make their own pineywood
jalopies- if they win, they might want to keep at the woodworking. If
they lose, it's a good opportunity to pick themselves up and dust off-
they can try again next year.

Robert

OK gentlemen, (most of you I am sure)

I'm sure this will p.o. someone but it has to be said,

It is really supposed to be about the principles being reinforced by
the Scouts, acceptance of those principles and embracing them as one's
own ( and subsequently our son's) which is why we / they join scouting.
All the rationalizing in the world, and more specifically on this
topic, on this site, does not and will not change those principles.
Dad's are supposed to supervise, help, or advise. I can't recall power
tools ever entering the equation when I was a kid. Very modest hand
tools such as a coping saw, sandpaper and a pocket knife is what
required utmost supervision, guidance and advice rang in for the
science; (friction, w5eight distribution, aero-dynamics) etc.

In a nutshell, it is about the process as well as the end result. The
end result should be satisfaction in learning to create, compete,
win/lose and to do all of it with dignity. Dads who don't respect that
or just don't get it, should just drop the boy off and let another
responsible adult LEAD by a PROPER example and justifications and
rationalizations be damned.

OK, off of my soap box. I endure my share of OT political crap that
shouldn't even be discussed on this site so I felt comfortable chiming
in here because there is at least a theoretical block of wood
involved...

DJ

On Jan 22, 10:43 pm, Tom Watson wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:10:52 -0600, "NuWaveDave"

wrote:
Wheel balancing! And Wheel bearings . . . and machined axles. And,
synthetic bearing lubricants. Tried a taller gear ratio?
~)))))
NuWave Dave in HoustonTo me, it is the transmission of the concept of craftsmanship.

The same mentality that makes you create a piston fit drawer, a
hermetic dovetail joint, a perfect deep gloss lacquer finish - these
are all created by the repetition of simple processes, and the truth
of success in any of them is - Character.

Going the extra mile. Being unreasoning in your pursuit of
excellence. Doing what needs to be done to make it as good as you
possibly can.

I don't have my boy stand in front of the drill press for an hour to
win this race - I want him to understand what it takes to win his
race, whatever that may turn out to be.

I have been somewhat facile about winning the Derby - I am much less
so about the lessons that the process teaches.

The goal with my son is never actually to beat anyone else but
himself.

Kipling had a great poem about it. I've had my boy memorize it.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

wrote:

OK, off of my soap box. I endure my share of OT political crap that
shouldn't even be discussed on this site so I felt comfortable chiming
in here because there is at least a theoretical block of wood
involved...

DJ


Not a damn thing wrong with what you said. In fact, I liked it! I say
fire away!

Robert

On Jan 22, 4:56 pm, "mew" wrote:
Jim wrote:
. I tend to
think it is pure luck but there are 3 families whose kids always place
in the top 5 or 6 out of 35 or so every year. They claim they do not
do anything excessive except make sure the car runs straight. We are
friends so I believe them.


There is some luck, no doubt. Your friends are right. Making the car
run straight is critical. I'm not one of the big experts, but we've
finished in the top 3 (different kids)
4 out of 7 times.. Of course, we've also failed to get out of the first
round in other years, as our pack is very competitive.

Jim wrote:
My son competed in his second Pinewood Derby a couple of weeks ago.
Last year he finished dead last. This year he finished 3rd from dead
last. I would like to ask for some diagnostic help from more
experienced Pinewood Derby racers. Last year and this year I read a
good bit of the material available on the Web and I thought we paid
attention to all of the important factors. Based on the behavior of
his car on the track in both years, I suspect that we had a weight
location problem.

We just finished the Pinewood Derby today. This year my son came in
second, last year third, but it's a very small pack, just 21 scouts.

I think that the key is aligned wheels, deburred wheels, very smooth
axles, and proper lubrication.

The axles need to be filed, then sanded with 180 grit, then 400 grit,
then polished with metal polish.

The wheels need to deburred without making them illegal.

The graphite needs to be put into the hubs before the axles are placed
onto the body, it's hard to get the graphite in after the axles are
installed.

Today's winner was far faster then the 2nd place finisher. The key was
that where the hub of the wheel contacts the body, he had sanded the
body smooth, and rubbed in dry lubricant into the wood where the hub
hits it.

I put the weight in the center. I'm not sure how much difference it
makes, but I've heard that the weight should be toward the back.

DonkeyHody wrote:
ore they got to the finish line.

I've held work days in my shop with my tools and assistance to try to
help some of these boys be more competitive. But they aren't the ones
who show up. None of the single mothers or non-technical dads bring
their kids. It's the young dads who are sure they know how to build a
fast car, they just need the tools to do it.

Our pack has one guy with a wood shop, and he hosts a work day, even
though his sons have graduated from the pack. Everyone can come and he
helps do the sawing with his scroll saws, shows how to do the weights,
etc. Basically, at the end of the day, the scouts have the wood shape,
and the weights are placed. Two weeks later the same guy hosts another
workshop to tune the cars, by that time the scout has painted the car,
and attached the wheels and axles. It's up to the scout to do the axle
finishing, and the wheel finishing, and this is an easy thing to do with
sandpaper, a file, and some polish, with the axles spinning in a drill.

The day of the race, we also help anyone that has problems with wheel
alignment, or that is under weight, and provide lubrication assistance.

There are families that don't avail themselves of the assistance that is
offered, and that is their choice.

Everyone that participates in the race gets a certificate for some
aspect of their car, i.e. "Smoothest Paint," "Most Patriotic," "Most
Futuristic," etc.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Jim" wrote in message

We would appreciate any help or advice.

My advice on the entire "Pinewood Derby" issue:

Buy the cars in bulk, factory made and shipped to the scout hut under
armed
guard so no parent could figure out how to get an edge; let each cub pick
out his racer, blindfolded ...then go straight to the starting line.

Thrill in victory, and participation, no agony in defeat ... and a good
time
was had by all.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/06/07

BRAVO!!!!
--

"Anybody can have more birthdays; but it takes
balls to get old!"

Swingman wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message

We would appreciate any help or advice.

My advice on the entire "Pinewood Derby" issue:

Buy the cars in bulk, factory made and shipped to the scout hut under armed
guard so no parent could figure out how to get an edge; let each cub pick
out his racer, blindfolded ...then go straight to the starting line.

Thrill in victory, and participation, no agony in defeat ... and a good time
was had by all.

Bad ideas. The building of the car, along with most Cub Scout
activities, are supposed to be parent/child activities.

It's not right to have the scouts watch while the parent does all the
work, or worse yet orders parts such as professionally prepared wheels
and axles on-line, but the parent is _supposed_ to help.

In our pack, the scout will draw the design on the wood. The parent will
do the cutting of the wood. The scout will sand the wood, insert the
weights and secure them, and paint & decorate the car, help prepare the
wheels and axles, attach them to the car, etc.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:00:30 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Pat - If you don't mind me turning this discussion over to my betters:


If you can keep your head when all about you

Snipped for brevity

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!


--Rudyard Kipling

Thanks Tom, I hadn't encountered that one before.

Makes me think maybe I should revisit Kipling- I had kind of missed
him as a kid, and figured it wasn't much use going back to revisit the
same fella who wrote the Jungle Book at this point.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:05:51 -0600, Prometheus
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:00:30 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Pat - If you don't mind me turning this discussion over to my betters:


If you can keep your head when all about you

Snipped for brevity

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!


--Rudyard Kipling

Thanks Tom, I hadn't encountered that one before.

Makes me think maybe I should revisit Kipling- I had kind of missed
him as a kid, and figured it wasn't much use going back to revisit the
same fella who wrote the Jungle Book at this point.

Oh, you really want to. While Kipling wrote some books for kids most
of his writing was not aimed at that audience, and even his books for
kids aren't "kid stuff".

Locutus wrote:

There were about 70 cars competing, my son won 1st place. I don't think I
have ever seen him so happy. I was the hero for at least one day.

The kid who won first place in our pack this year, made his car the
night before the race.

Ironically, the two ugliest cars, his and my son's, won 1st and 2nd.

On Jan 22, 5:32 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

We race on a forty foot Piantedosi wood track, with a starting pin
height of about 45", and the slope runs out flat at about 12' on a
level line from the pins. The pin to finish line distance is about
35' measured on the track.

We use tungsten weights that come in 3/8" d. cylinders and we drill
the car body out, starting on the centerline of the car and running
parallel to the centerline for one row on either side of it. The
drilled holes have about 1/8" between each and they are drilled to
depth with a forstner bit on the drill press.

We insert the weights into the center line of holes and attempt to get
the car to five ounces, with one ounce riding on the front axles. We
set the weights to be flush with the bottom of the car.

We straighten the axles in a press and hammer the nail head into the
press so that it is square to the shaft, and then file off the webbing
below the nail head. Then we lightly file the underside of the nail
head into a coned shape.

Then we insert the axle into the drill press and polish it with
wet-or-dry abrasive, starting at 600 grit and moving through the grits
to a finish with 1 micron polishing cloth. We wipe them down with
alcohol and put them in a baggie with a powdered graphite/moly
lubricant. We treat the underside of the nail head the same as we do
the shaft.

We use a jig on the drill press to bring the wheels into round and
then treat the tread with the same regimen of abrasives. We cone the
bore of the wheels and we polish with the same set of abrasives. We
use the same abrasives on the area of the wheel that contacts the
underside of the axle. We polish the inside edge of the wheels with
the same abrasives and then we take a rag and push graphite/moly into
the surfaces of the coned hub, flat face, treads, etc. We use a piece
of drill rod and some liquid abrasive to polish the interior of the
bore. Then we clean out the wheels with compressed air, then swab
with denatured. Then we put the wheels in a baggie that has some
graphite/moly in it and shake them up, then let them sit overnight -
they come out a cool looking graphite gray and - we hope - the
graphite gets into some of the crans and nookies.

We drill holes in the body at the bottoms of the axle slots, so that
the axles will go in straight. We load the wheel hubs up with
graphite/moly and push the axles through, trying to keep as much
lubricant in the bore as we can. We push the axles into the body
until the wheel bores are 1/32" away from the body. Then we spin the
wheels for a bit using the air compressor to direct a stream of air
over the wheel to make it spin.

Then we set the car on a piece of plywood that is eight feet long and
set to a five degree slope, being level side to side. We put a dot on
the twelve o clock position of the axle head and we turn each axle a
quarter turn at a time until the car can run a straight line over
eight feet.

We then run the air compressor over each wheel until we think the lube
is gone and test the car for straight again. A little more tweaking
to make it straight. Then we pack it with lube and we're ready to
race.

The boy ran third out of fifty his first year and second last year.
Then he went to the Districts and ran third out of 150.



Man, why'd you even bother using "we" in this post? Sheesh.

Blame the engineers you refer to in another post ("Hey, they're
cheating, so I will, too!")

Rationalize it as a learning experience ("Son, you're going to have
to do this for your son some day, so pay attention.")

Rationalize it because you did well. Make excuses all you want, and
I know you will.

But if your kid gets kicked out of school for cheating, let's see how
well those excuses hold water. Since pinewood derby is nothing like
school, he's not being taught cheating is OK, right? Riigghht.

Whether you realize it or not, when you're not around, the kids talk
about who did what. (this coming from a former pack leader) Kids
being kids, the ones that didn't do well (but did it themselves) will
have lots of ammunition for those that had DaddyCo make their car.
And they -will- use it. ("Loser, you can't even build a car! Your
Dad had to do it for you!" That's a verbatim quote.) They all know.
The kids are psyched when they win, until later, usually during the
trophy presentation, they get called out. And all those wonderful
lessons you think you imparted are washed out by a few choice words
from an eight-year old.

The winners learn the wonderful life lesson that hey, I won, so who
cares if my dad did it? And please, spare us the tripe about his
"involvement" in the process. Eight year boys don't polish axles
down to sub-microscopic levels.

But hey, at least yours will know Kipling. At least have it
memorized, anyway.

On 13 Feb 2007 08:29:38 -0800, wrote:

On Jan 22, 5:32 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

We race on a forty foot Piantedosi wood track, with a starting pin
height of about 45", and the slope runs out flat at about 12' on a
level line from the pins. The pin to finish line distance is about
35' measured on the track.

We use tungsten weights that come in 3/8" d. cylinders and we drill
the car body out, starting on the centerline of the car and running
parallel to the centerline for one row on either side of it. The
drilled holes have about 1/8" between each and they are drilled to
depth with a forstner bit on the drill press.

We insert the weights into the center line of holes and attempt to get
the car to five ounces, with one ounce riding on the front axles. We
set the weights to be flush with the bottom of the car.

We straighten the axles in a press and hammer the nail head into the
press so that it is square to the shaft, and then file off the webbing
below the nail head. Then we lightly file the underside of the nail
head into a coned shape.

Then we insert the axle into the drill press and polish it with
wet-or-dry abrasive, starting at 600 grit and moving through the grits
to a finish with 1 micron polishing cloth. We wipe them down with
alcohol and put them in a baggie with a powdered graphite/moly
lubricant. We treat the underside of the nail head the same as we do
the shaft.

We use a jig on the drill press to bring the wheels into round and
then treat the tread with the same regimen of abrasives. We cone the
bore of the wheels and we polish with the same set of abrasives. We
use the same abrasives on the area of the wheel that contacts the
underside of the axle. We polish the inside edge of the wheels with
the same abrasives and then we take a rag and push graphite/moly into
the surfaces of the coned hub, flat face, treads, etc. We use a piece
of drill rod and some liquid abrasive to polish the interior of the
bore. Then we clean out the wheels with compressed air, then swab
with denatured. Then we put the wheels in a baggie that has some
graphite/moly in it and shake them up, then let them sit overnight -
they come out a cool looking graphite gray and - we hope - the
graphite gets into some of the crans and nookies.

We drill holes in the body at the bottoms of the axle slots, so that
the axles will go in straight. We load the wheel hubs up with
graphite/moly and push the axles through, trying to keep as much
lubricant in the bore as we can. We push the axles into the body
until the wheel bores are 1/32" away from the body. Then we spin the
wheels for a bit using the air compressor to direct a stream of air
over the wheel to make it spin.

Then we set the car on a piece of plywood that is eight feet long and
set to a five degree slope, being level side to side. We put a dot on
the twelve o clock position of the axle head and we turn each axle a
quarter turn at a time until the car can run a straight line over
eight feet.

We then run the air compressor over each wheel until we think the lube
is gone and test the car for straight again. A little more tweaking
to make it straight. Then we pack it with lube and we're ready to
race.

The boy ran third out of fifty his first year and second last year.
Then he went to the Districts and ran third out of 150.



Man, why'd you even bother using "we" in this post? Sheesh.

Blame the engineers you refer to in another post ("Hey, they're
cheating, so I will, too!")

Rationalize it as a learning experience ("Son, you're going to have
to do this for your son some day, so pay attention.")

Rationalize it because you did well. Make excuses all you want, and
I know you will.

But if your kid gets kicked out of school for cheating, let's see how
well those excuses hold water. Since pinewood derby is nothing like
school, he's not being taught cheating is OK, right? Riigghht.

Whether you realize it or not, when you're not around, the kids talk
about who did what. (this coming from a former pack leader) Kids
being kids, the ones that didn't do well (but did it themselves) will
have lots of ammunition for those that had DaddyCo make their car.
And they -will- use it. ("Loser, you can't even build a car! Your
Dad had to do it for you!" That's a verbatim quote.) They all know.
The kids are psyched when they win, until later, usually during the
trophy presentation, they get called out. And all those wonderful
lessons you think you imparted are washed out by a few choice words
from an eight-year old.

The winners learn the wonderful life lesson that hey, I won, so who
cares if my dad did it? And please, spare us the tripe about his
"involvement" in the process. Eight year boys don't polish axles
down to sub-microscopic levels.

But hey, at least yours will know Kipling. At least have it
memorized, anyway.

I think that what is needed is a Budweiser Ebony Wood Pro Derby with
big prizes and free beer, unlimited engineering innovation is allowed,
no one under 21 is admitted, and all cars must be made of species that
sink in water.

While the adults are all competing for bucks and ****ing for distance
the kids will be able to get back to being kids, and having fun with
their simple cars that float, learning what they can as the aspire to
being allowed to build a sinker.

On 13 Feb 2007 08:29:38 -0800, wrote:


Man, why'd you even bother using "we" in this post? Sheesh.

Blame the engineers you refer to in another post ("Hey, they're
cheating, so I will, too!")

Rationalize it as a learning experience ("Son, you're going to have
to do this for your son some day, so pay attention.")

Rationalize it because you did well. Make excuses all you want, and
I know you will.

But if your kid gets kicked out of school for cheating, let's see how
well those excuses hold water. Since pinewood derby is nothing like
school, he's not being taught cheating is OK, right? Riigghht.

Whether you realize it or not, when you're not around, the kids talk
about who did what. (this coming from a former pack leader) Kids
being kids, the ones that didn't do well (but did it themselves) will
have lots of ammunition for those that had DaddyCo make their car.
And they -will- use it. ("Loser, you can't even build a car! Your
Dad had to do it for you!" That's a verbatim quote.) They all know.
The kids are psyched when they win, until later, usually during the
trophy presentation, they get called out. And all those wonderful
lessons you think you imparted are washed out by a few choice words
from an eight-year old.

The winners learn the wonderful life lesson that hey, I won, so who
cares if my dad did it? And please, spare us the tripe about his
"involvement" in the process. Eight year boys don't polish axles
down to sub-microscopic levels.

But hey, at least yours will know Kipling. At least have it
memorized, anyway.


I've had dealings with you before, McCarver.

When you are not on alt.soc.fat-acceptance, you are on
rec.sport.football.fantasy, or rec.gambling.poker, according to your
Google profile.

Why don't you leave decent folks alone?

You last blew in here in April of 2005, once again giving me a lot of
crap.

You are not a former pack leader, you are scum.


My story stands. Assholes like you must lie down.


You think that you can't be tracked? Doug Miller could give
coordinates for you that would let us call in hard rounds for effect -
with no ancillary damage.









Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:59:38 -0500, J. Clarke
wrote:

On 13 Feb 2007 08:29:38 -0800, wrote:

On Jan 22, 5:32 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

We race on a forty foot Piantedosi wood track, with a starting pin
height of about 45", and the slope runs out flat at about 12' on a
level line from the pins. The pin to finish line distance is about
35' measured on the track.

We use tungsten weights that come in 3/8" d. cylinders and we drill
the car body out, starting on the centerline of the car and running
parallel to the centerline for one row on either side of it. The
drilled holes have about 1/8" between each and they are drilled to
depth with a forstner bit on the drill press.

We insert the weights into the center line of holes and attempt to get
the car to five ounces, with one ounce riding on the front axles. We
set the weights to be flush with the bottom of the car.

We straighten the axles in a press and hammer the nail head into the
press so that it is square to the shaft, and then file off the webbing
below the nail head. Then we lightly file the underside of the nail
head into a coned shape.

Then we insert the axle into the drill press and polish it with
wet-or-dry abrasive, starting at 600 grit and moving through the grits
to a finish with 1 micron polishing cloth. We wipe them down with
alcohol and put them in a baggie with a powdered graphite/moly
lubricant. We treat the underside of the nail head the same as we do
the shaft.

We use a jig on the drill press to bring the wheels into round and
then treat the tread with the same regimen of abrasives. We cone the
bore of the wheels and we polish with the same set of abrasives. We
use the same abrasives on the area of the wheel that contacts the
underside of the axle. We polish the inside edge of the wheels with
the same abrasives and then we take a rag and push graphite/moly into
the surfaces of the coned hub, flat face, treads, etc. We use a piece
of drill rod and some liquid abrasive to polish the interior of the
bore. Then we clean out the wheels with compressed air, then swab
with denatured. Then we put the wheels in a baggie that has some
graphite/moly in it and shake them up, then let them sit overnight -
they come out a cool looking graphite gray and - we hope - the
graphite gets into some of the crans and nookies.

We drill holes in the body at the bottoms of the axle slots, so that
the axles will go in straight. We load the wheel hubs up with
graphite/moly and push the axles through, trying to keep as much
lubricant in the bore as we can. We push the axles into the body
until the wheel bores are 1/32" away from the body. Then we spin the
wheels for a bit using the air compressor to direct a stream of air
over the wheel to make it spin.

Then we set the car on a piece of plywood that is eight feet long and
set to a five degree slope, being level side to side. We put a dot on
the twelve o clock position of the axle head and we turn each axle a
quarter turn at a time until the car can run a straight line over
eight feet.

We then run the air compressor over each wheel until we think the lube
is gone and test the car for straight again. A little more tweaking
to make it straight. Then we pack it with lube and we're ready to
race.

The boy ran third out of fifty his first year and second last year.
Then he went to the Districts and ran third out of 150.



Man, why'd you even bother using "we" in this post? Sheesh.

Blame the engineers you refer to in another post ("Hey, they're
cheating, so I will, too!")

Rationalize it as a learning experience ("Son, you're going to have
to do this for your son some day, so pay attention.")

Rationalize it because you did well. Make excuses all you want, and
I know you will.

But if your kid gets kicked out of school for cheating, let's see how
well those excuses hold water. Since pinewood derby is nothing like
school, he's not being taught cheating is OK, right? Riigghht.

Whether you realize it or not, when you're not around, the kids talk
about who did what. (this coming from a former pack leader) Kids
being kids, the ones that didn't do well (but did it themselves) will
have lots of ammunition for those that had DaddyCo make their car.
And they -will- use it. ("Loser, you can't even build a car! Your
Dad had to do it for you!" That's a verbatim quote.) They all know.
The kids are psyched when they win, until later, usually during the
trophy presentation, they get called out. And all those wonderful
lessons you think you imparted are washed out by a few choice words
from an eight-year old.

The winners learn the wonderful life lesson that hey, I won, so who
cares if my dad did it? And please, spare us the tripe about his
"involvement" in the process. Eight year boys don't polish axles
down to sub-microscopic levels.

But hey, at least yours will know Kipling. At least have it
memorized, anyway.

I think that what is needed is a Budweiser Ebony Wood Pro Derby with
big prizes and free beer, unlimited engineering innovation is allowed,
no one under 21 is admitted, and all cars must be made of species that
sink in water.

While the adults are all competing for bucks and ****ing for distance
the kids will be able to get back to being kids, and having fun with
their simple cars that float, learning what they can as the aspire to
being allowed to build a sinker.


Winning the PineyWood Derby is a simple process, J.

Make your car weigh five ounces and distribute your weight so that one
ounce is on the front wheels.

After that it is a game of alignment and friction reduction.

Get your axles square to the body and parallel to each other.

Then it is a game of who spent the most time with the abrasives.

The team with the best sandpaper wins.

My story is true.

In every endeavour that I have been involved with in my life, be it
sports or business, or music, or whatever - the person who is willing
to go the extra mile beats raw talent nearly every time.

It's a good lesson for kids and it is a good lesson for us old
*******s that might have forgot.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Whether you realize it or not, when you're not around, the kids talk
about who did what. (this coming from a former pack leader) Kids
being kids, the ones that didn't do well (but did it themselves) will
have lots of ammunition for those that had DaddyCo make their car.
And they -will- use it. ("Loser, you can't even build a car! Your
Dad had to do it for you!" That's a verbatim quote.) They all know.
The kids are psyched when they win, until later, usually during the
trophy presentation, they get called out. And all those wonderful
lessons you think you imparted are washed out by a few choice words
from an eight-year old.

The winners learn the wonderful life lesson that hey, I won, so who
cares if my dad did it?

Just my 2cents as a former Cubmaster for 15 years of scouting and 3 sons.
I have seen almost every possible cheat tried and have had to remove a
parent from Pack night. I've seen cars that Detroit would have liked to
copy and cars that were blocks of wood right out of the box with the wheels
pushed on. win. I knew that the dads did most of the work and I tried to
insure that at least the boys watched and helped somewhat (paint, sand,
stickers etc.).

It is my observed opinion that to win pinewood derby there are three things
required. (Luck, Smooth wheels, Aligned wheels)

Luck --- The starter setws the car shight on the track
Smooth Wheels ---The wheels are sanded very smooth
and the axles are lubed with just enough
grafite
Aligned Wheels --- The spot that the wheels touch the car body is
pararell to the edge of the wheel

It is the same as bobsledding the smoother you go down the track the faster.

Please remember to have the boys root for thier pack mates as well as them
selfves.


Ken G
Pack 93