It is 64 years today, since 12/07/41, "a day that shall live in infamy"
per FDR.

Least we not forget.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
It is 64 years today, since 12/07/41, "a day that shall live in infamy"
per FDR.

Least we not forget.

Defending yourself is evil.

JP

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
k.net...
It is 64 years today, since 12/07/41, "a day that shall live in infamy"
per FDR.

Least we not forget.


I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii and
then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The rest of
the day at the Punch Bowl.

I work at a tech company with many "30somethings" who have either had
absolutely no history lessons in school or think anything that happened
prior to the "summer of love" was meaningless because they firmly
believe america re-invents itself every 25 years or so and the past is
not all that instructive. Perhaps that's why americans as a society
tend not to let history give us a lesson in vigilance, and history
repeats itself, e.g., 12/7/41 and 9/11. Same deal, sucker punch, just
a different enemy, time and place. I honor the memory of the dead of
both attacks, and ask why those presumably "in charge" did not
anticipate such acts which in hindsight seem so obvious. I guess its
the same disease of ignoring the past that infects my co-workers. So
be it.

Whilst waxing philosophic, I might as well continue. Our wonderful
Prez seems to suffer from the same intellectual disease, instead of
pursuing Al Queda with all our resources post 9/11, his leadership
detours (manipulates?) us into invading Iraq simply because Saddam
tried to have Dubya's daddy killed and/or all of his oil buddies (read
campaign contributors) were salivating over that "bubbling crude" under
the sand in that shi*hole country, and not because there were any Al
Queda terrorists there being supported by Saddam who was presumably
giving them WMD. Even a fool can realize that Saddam would not have
tolerated a religious-based armed power structure within his fiefdom.
Now, and properly so, we have to stay (1, 2, 3 years, no end to it that
I can see) to clean up the hotbed of international terrorism that
filled the power vacumn our invasion created, and do that at great loss
of life - both american and iraqi. Somehow, even though I didn't
particularly care for the guy, I don't think Al Gore would have gotten
us into this mess. I dunno, I guess I'm just so, so sad for those
families that have lost their sons and daughters in this particular
aspect of the war on terror that really shouldn't have happened in the
first place.

BYW, today is the 25th anniversary of John Lennon's murder. We should
all read the lyrics of "Imagine" and just think about what he was
trying to say.

I'll shut up now.

Mutt

"Charles Self" wrote in message
news



Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii
and then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The
rest of the day at the Punch Bowl.


The History teacher would love to teach history but the friggen school
administration dictates what will be taught. The schools have to be all
politically correct so as not to offend some one. Teaching about the
Japanese would hurt some Americans feelings. Then there is the Darwin
thing.
I say let the teather teach and diciplin the child.

Leon said:

"Charles Self" wrote:

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii
and then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The
rest of the day at the Punch Bowl.

The History teacher would love to teach history but the friggen school
administration dictates what will be taught. The schools have to be all
politically correct so as not to offend some one. Teaching about the
Japanese would hurt some Americans feelings. Then there is the Darwin
thing. I say let the teather teach and diciplin the child.

My shortest response ever... ;-)

Yup!


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Leon said:

"Charles Self" wrote:

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii
and then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The
rest of the day at the Punch Bowl.

The History teacher would love to teach history but the friggen school
administration dictates what will be taught. The schools have to be all
politically correct so as not to offend some one. Teaching about the
Japanese would hurt some Americans feelings. Then there is the Darwin
thing. I say let the teather teach and diciplin the child.

My shortest response ever... ;-)

Yup!

Maybe. I've seen too many history teachers, and English teachers, who don't
know enough about their subjects to teach anything. The leads to a
generation now turning 30 that has no idea what the causes of the 'Nam war
were, with no idea that the Korean War was even fought--most of those who do
know of Korea think of it as an extension of WWII, and they view WWII as
something that was a cakewalk for the Allies, with a predetermined outcome.

Scary.

Charles Self said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .
Leon said:

"Charles Self" wrote:

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii
and then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The
rest of the day at the Punch Bowl.

The History teacher would love to teach history but the friggen school
administration dictates what will be taught. The schools have to be all
politically correct so as not to offend some one. Teaching about the
Japanese would hurt some Americans feelings. Then there is the Darwin
thing. I say let the teather teach and diciplin the child.

My shortest response ever... ;-)

Yup!

Maybe. I've seen too many history teachers, and English teachers, who don't
know enough about their subjects to teach anything. The leads to a
generation now turning 30 that has no idea what the causes of the 'Nam war
were, with no idea that the Korean War was even fought--most of those who do
know of Korea think of it as an extension of WWII, and they view WWII as
something that was a cakewalk for the Allies, with a predetermined outcome.

Scary.

Perhaps I was lucky - I had many excellent public school teachers over
the years. Science, math and English were well taught by several
interesting teachers - and this was in a Southern school system.
History, however, was usually relegated to the shop teacher or a
coach, and little of it made a lasting impression.

Between the monotone drone and the simplistic, "Americanized" history
books, it's amazing I learned anything about World or US history and
Geography. I look back now and consider most of it "conditioning"
intent on creating good little citizens. Perhaps that's where I get
my somewhat radical views as an adult. Learned most of what I know
later in life - on my own.

And I'm still amazed at the people who aren't aware that it was the
Russian Army that marched into Berlin the day Hitler committed
suicide, not the USA.


Greg G.

Well....

I don't want to throw water on this, but I am not as concerned with the
actual Pearl Harbor (and thousands of others) like it as I am the
treatment of the American Veterans.

I think it is shameful that they are treated like everyone else....
they are not. I am 50, and thankfully was not consripted to fight in
any war or skirmish. I have many, many veteran friends, and know of
many more that served. Living in San Antonio, TX, at one time we had 5
military bases, and for all intents and purposes, we are a miltary, and
I mean military proud city.

My siding/gutter man spends about a month off with rheumetoid
arthristis problems caused by back injuries when his chopper was shot
down in Vietnam. One of my close friends spent 3 years in the hospital
after receiving (he calls it a "lucky") hit from a mortar round in his
hooch. It was his second tour in Vietnam, and he got his second Purple
Heart there, along with a lot of other things he won't talk about. To
this day, when he hears road blasting he is jumpy, as it reminds him
too much of incoming.

My next door neighbor served in Italy in the 36th. Without going into
details, for those that know history know what he and his went through.
My SO's father was there, too. He wouldn't even let me build him a
shadow box for his medals (including a DSC). He felt like all of them
did their jobs... the lucky ones came home... the unlucky ones didn't.
His own family doesn't know what he did, and when he told me (easier to
talk to an outsider I guess...) he cried for the friends he lost.
Friends that were frozen alive in snow filled tank track ruts, friends
that were killed and left where they fell for days, friends that were
killed by fanatics who placed no value on their own lives.

My best friend's dad is now 83. He was at Pearl Harbor, I believe at
Hickham Field. He showed me the wreckage of his first plane, one that
never left the ground. It was burned in the hangar, never leaving the
ground. He went on to be one of those "left behind" by MacArthur in
the Phillipines.

So do I care about one incident? In reality, yes. In the overview,
no. So many heroes, NOT baseball players that risked life and limb
going into the stands for a long hit, NOT NBA players that "play hurt"
because they fell in an earlier game, and NOT a NASCAR driver who
continues to win, are not remembered. Heroes that gave everything, and
are now remembered (or not) on foreign soil with a white marble cross.
Heroes that are unnamed in our cemetaries whose bodies were blasted to
bits and were marked "unknown soldiers".

These are the PEOPLE we need to remember. By identifying their
sacrifice in the teachings of history, we can help people identify what
they did, and how much they gave. Don't get upset by the fact that one
event was not memorialized properly, look at the lack of thanks given
to all our vets.

And for those who will hijack this thread about our veterans to make it
yet another ****ing political diatribe, I would like to say to all of
you that you have that right because of the veterans. As for me,
please screw off.

Robert

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:24:21 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...
It is 64 years today, since 12/07/41, "a day that shall live in infamy"
per FDR.

Least we not forget.


I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii and
then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The rest of
the day at the Punch Bowl.


If it makes ya feel any better, Charlie, the front page of our local paper had
pictures and articles about the local celebration and showed a shot of a Pearl
Harbor survivor reading the names of local folks who died in the attack, while
another P. H. vet rand the bell..



"New from Mitsubishi, the company that brought you Pearl Harbor"


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Charles Self (in
) said:

| Maybe. I've seen too many history teachers, and English teachers,
| who don't know enough about their subjects to teach anything.

I was lucky - I had good teachers. My kids' history teachers didn't
even bother to give their classes a clue as to /why/ history was
taught in school. I recalled George Santayana's famous quote ("Those
who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.") and we began
working our way backward from what was being reported on the evening
news - a game to identify historical precedent for current events.

I found it interesting that their history grades improved - and that
they concluded that most politicians seemed to lack either integrity
or proper education (or both). Darned if I don't agree.

The real eye-opener came some years later when I discovered that my
(then) Soviet Russian ESL students (all engineers) knew more of
American history than we even attempt to teach in our schools...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:24:21 +0000, Charles Self wrote:


Least we not forget.

I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.



We did a little better. In addition to the above, we had about a half
page article on a survivors reunion. Of course, it was on the last page.

As one who was a child during that war, many thanks to all who fought in
it - I owe you.

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message news:iEZlf.21 The real
eye-opener came some years later when I discovered that my
(then) Soviet Russian ESL students (all engineers) knew more of
American history than we even attempt to teach in our schools...


If you'd seen what they were taught about their own, you'd be even more
amazed. I can remember posting some changes to our books back when an RSL
student. Remove these pages - someone out of favor - insert these.

The powers that wish to be in power forever are willing to sacrifice reality
for harmony. How that differs from sacrificing it for socialist reality is
something I don't quite understand.

Wouldn't limit it to those two subjects, had a "Teacher" at the
college level that ASKED THE STUDENTS if THEY knew what the concept
was! Another read from the text and didn't understand what he was
reading. This was after students got sick and tired of his stories
about voice recognition software that was being developed. I'm
gettin' sick!
In an advanced drafting class in high school the teacher, ex-woodshop
theacher that developed painful ailments and was reassigned, was
grading drawings when a student exclaimed in a silent classroom "Jesus
Christ!" when he realised he made a mistake and "Pop" looked over his
glasses and suggested "John, next time I'd suggest you call on someone
you know better" and went back to grading in silence. He had three
kids Tom, Dick and Harry. When he was Boy Scout Troop Leader his
troop was the largest in town! Miss him!

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:09:44 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:

Maybe. I've seen too many history teachers, and English teachers, who don't
know enough about their subjects to teach anything.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:24:21 +0000, Charles Self wrote:


Least we not forget.

I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb
under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.



We did a little better. In addition to the above, we had about a half
page article on a survivors reunion. Of course, it was on the last page.

As one who was a child during that war, many thanks to all who fought in
it - I owe you.

We all owe them. This world would be considerably different, and not
pleasantly so, without their sacrifices. I was about seven when WWII ended,
and, in one way or another, we've been embroiled in wars for too many of the
years since then, but we've also had longer and more peaceful times of calm
than most eras ever see. It will be wonderful, if it ever happens, when an
era of calm, of peace, extends so far into the past that there is no need to
remember the last war. But that's far in the future, and seems to be
receding quickly.

Amen, guys; there were once giants on the earth, and they were of that
generation. My father was drafted in '39 and was in it until '45; those men
and women literally did the impossible. I wonder if our present generation
would have the fortitude....

Jim

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:24:21 +0000, Charles Self wrote:


Least we not forget.

I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb
under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.



We did a little better. In addition to the above, we had about a half
page article on a survivors reunion. Of course, it was on the last page.

As one who was a child during that war, many thanks to all who fought in
it - I owe you.

KENDALL SEYBERT wrote:
Amen, guys; there were once giants on the earth, and they were of that
generation. My father was drafted in '39 and was in it until '45; those men
and women literally did the impossible. I wonder if our present generation
would have the fortitude....


Without question.

Each generation faces it's own set of problems and somehow gets the job
done.

Reight now, it's not the kids but the leadership that is in doubt.

Lew

KENDALL SEYBERT (in dt1mf.5905$Yh2.5326@trndny01) said:

| Amen, guys; there were once giants on the earth, and they were of
| that generation. My father was drafted in '39 and was in it until
| '45; those men and women literally did the impossible. I wonder if
| our present generation would have the fortitude....

I don't think I'd be taking anything away from the vets of any
previous generation if I said that there are still those kinds of
giants.

It's just that as we've gotten older, those giants have come to look
more and more like our kids.

The world has changed - idealism, determination, and courage have not.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

I had the best WWII teacher of all. He turned 90 this August. Retired
from the Army in the early 1950's. Did four tours of duty in WWII -
Normandy, Italy, Africa, and USSR. I know God must have watched over
him.....
Whenever I go back home, I stop to visit him. This spring he pulled out
a small box that the UPS man brought him the week before. Seems that he went
to the VA and the young gal working there informed him that he was due some
medals for his service in WWII. He handed me the box, which I quickly
opened.....inside were 4 stars, one medal for marksmanship and two others
(not sure what those were for).
I was taken for a moment.... He will talk about the war if asked, share
the good and bad times, but never was "proud" about it. I told him
that I thought he was a hero. He simply said "We were young and did what we
had to do".
Soon afterward, I built him a wormy chestnut display case that will fit
an 8x10 picture of him, his medals and someday (hopefully not soon) the flag
from his burial. I thought he had a tear in his eye when i gave it to him.
Here's to you Uncle Gus. --dave





"Greg G." wrote in message
news
Charles Self said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
. ..
Leon said:

"Charles Self" wrote:

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to
Hawaii
and then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial.
The
rest of the day at the Punch Bowl.

The History teacher would love to teach history but the friggen school
administration dictates what will be taught. The schools have to be all
politically correct so as not to offend some one. Teaching about the
Japanese would hurt some Americans feelings. Then there is the Darwin
thing. I say let the teather teach and diciplin the child.

My shortest response ever... ;-)

Yup!

Maybe. I've seen too many history teachers, and English teachers, who
don't
know enough about their subjects to teach anything. The leads to a
generation now turning 30 that has no idea what the causes of the 'Nam war
were, with no idea that the Korean War was even fought--most of those who
do
know of Korea think of it as an extension of WWII, and they view WWII as
something that was a cakewalk for the Allies, with a predetermined
outcome.

Scary.

Perhaps I was lucky - I had many excellent public school teachers over
the years. Science, math and English were well taught by several
interesting teachers - and this was in a Southern school system.
History, however, was usually relegated to the shop teacher or a
coach, and little of it made a lasting impression.

Between the monotone drone and the simplistic, "Americanized" history
books, it's amazing I learned anything about World or US history and
Geography. I look back now and consider most of it "conditioning"
intent on creating good little citizens. Perhaps that's where I get
my somewhat radical views as an adult. Learned most of what I know
later in life - on my own.

And I'm still amazed at the people who aren't aware that it was the
Russian Army that marched into Berlin the day Hitler committed
suicide, not the USA.


Greg G.

"KENDALL SEYBERT" wrote in message
news:dt1mf.5905$Yh2.5326@trndny01...
Amen, guys; there were once giants on the earth, and they were of that
generation. My father was drafted in '39 and was in it until '45; those
men
and women literally did the impossible. I wonder if our present
generation
would have the fortitude....


Absolutely, today's generation could do it IF the government bureaucracy and
tree huggers would let them do their job.

mac davis said:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:24:21 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...
It is 64 years today, since 12/07/41, "a day that shall live in infamy"
per FDR.

Least we not forget.


I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii and
then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The rest of
the day at the Punch Bowl.


If it makes ya feel any better, Charlie, the front page of our local paper had
pictures and articles about the local celebration and showed a shot of a Pearl
Harbor survivor reading the names of local folks who died in the attack, while
another P. H. vet rand the bell..


"New from Mitsubishi, the company that brought you Pearl Harbor"

Having dealt with consumer electronics over the years, I was amazed at
the widespread acceptance of the Mitsubishi product name in American
households. They began market penetration with the moniker M.G.A.,
but later switched to their real name - yeah, the same company that
built suicide bomber aero-planes.

I thought at first it was perhaps a guilt thing over the dropping of
the 3 "bombs", but have now decided it's just lack of historical
perspective and general stupidity. If the Taliban started building
cheap cars to finance terrorist attacks, some idiot dealer over here
would stock a boatload of them, and consumers would buy them.

Everyone I knew that fought in WWII - the big one - has long since
fled yuppie-town, and left me here to content with this latest breed
of insular idiots.

And since I neglected to mention it, _Thank You_ to all who suffered
through one of the goriest wars in History, against foes that defined
the oft bandied about phrase "Axis of Evil". One moments hesitation
or doubt on the part of any of the Allied Troops could have resulted
in a totally different outcome... Hitler was working _very_ hard to
acquire true "weapons of mass destruction". These brave soldier's
sacrifices are the reason I can sit here and bitch about the current
crop of idiot head-in-the-sand politicians without being hauled off to
a hidden concentration camp and tortured.

FWIW,

Greg G.

In article dt1mf.5905$Yh2.5326@trndny01,
"KENDALL SEYBERT" wrote:

I wonder if our present generation
would have the fortitude....

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind, but you'll have to rebuild the
respect for the men and women in the leadership positions first.
Now they're looking at as just a bunch of self-serving money-grabbing
corporation-sucking *******s..... which they are.
I think war should be left to the military, not preppy sons of oil
barons.
How the hell can you get fire in your belly when the role-models on top
have only worn a uniform to play-act for a photo-op? Or, for that
matter, sold out to a ketchup heiress?

Kids are smarter than that these days, they see right through the
bull****. It makes the difference between following an order because you
have to and following an order because you want to.

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message
k.net...
I had the best WWII teacher of all. He turned 90 this August.
Retired
from the Army in the early 1950's. Did four tours of duty in WWII -
Normandy, Italy, Africa, and USSR. I know God must have watched over
him.....

(snip)

Just curious, did God not watch over those that fell?

If you ascribe a man's survival to divine intervention, surely the reverse
must be true. Those millions that did not survive WWII must have been left
out of God's watchfulness. As God is omnipotent by definition, he must have
been capable of watching over everyone, he just must have chosen to do so in
some cases and not others.
If that is the case then you would have to wonder why God would choose this
man to watch over and not this other man.

Mekon

Greg G. wrote:

"New from Mitsubishi, the company that brought you Pearl Harbor"


Having dealt with consumer electronics over the years, I was amazed at
the widespread acceptance of the Mitsubishi product name in American
households. They began market penetration with the moniker M.G.A.,
but later switched to their real name - yeah, the same company that
built suicide bomber aero-planes.


The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Names like Krupp, Mercedes, BASF mean anything?

All were part of the German war machine.

All are important suppliers in today's global economy.

Our friends and allies of 60 years ago are not necessarily the same as
those today.

Lew

Leon said:

Absolutely, today's generation could do it IF the government bureaucracy and
tree huggers would let them do their job.

Uh... Tree Huggers? No to be difficult Leon, but what on earth do
environmentalists have to do with war?! g

Stealth OT

If anything, the "Tree Huggers" have been amazingly quiet about the
405 tons of depleted uranium projectiles we have sprayed on Iraq and
Serbia/Kosovo/ Yugoslavia over the past 15 years. Having a half-life
of about 4.5 million years, the use of DU rounds has resulted in a
minimum 400% increase in bizarre birth defects in Iraqi civilians, and
an estimated 65% rate of birth defects among exposed Gulf War
Veterans. Even the Pentagon's director of the DU project, Doug Rokke,
resigned over the use of DU as a military weapon, stating that its use
was a crime against humanity. This is one reason some Iraqis are so
****ed off, the other being that many are fanatical lunatics - Gee, I
wonder why? We've dumped about 395 tons of this stuff on Iraq alone.

This doesn't, however, detract from the bravery and determination of
those who do the job they are ordered to perform - when they are
allowed, and equipped, to do it. The Bureaucracy remains the problem.

-------------
Depleted uranium (DU) or uranium-238 is made from uranium hexaflouride
which is the non-fissionable by-product of the uranium enrichment
process used to obtain uranium-235 for reactor fuel and nuclear bombs.

Depleted Uranium projectiles are used as tank and bunker piercing
rounds due to their super-high density and ability to cut through
armoured objects like warmed butter..
-------------

So, shoot the messenger...

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Leon said:

Absolutely, today's generation could do it IF the government bureaucracy
and
tree huggers would let them do their job.

Uh... Tree Huggers? No to be difficult Leon, but what on earth do
environmentalists have to do with war?! g


I was being extremely general there. I see the personality of that group as
the same as many other groups. Like the Dip Ship 1999.44.49.110 that likes
to quote casualties and do nothing to help.

wrote in message
ps.com...

(snipped valuable post)

Hear hear. For some soldiers getting up in the morning and not shooting a
hole in their foot makes qualifies them for hero status in my book.So many
men and women did their bit in your country and both of mine (UK and Oz)
without recognition and returned to a ungrateful world.

One of my grandfathers was unable to enlist as he was in a reserved
occupation. He was a coal miner. Every working day he would go down the mine
not knowing whether he would have a family to come back to when he came back
up. Twice he came up to find his home wrecked and once he arrived after they
had dug his wife out of the rubble and yet he went down again the next day.
I can't imagine how he must have felt when he went down again and again and
again.

His wife, my Grandma, was a hero too She was a midwife who "delivered babies
as the bombs were falling". On one occasion a German bomber was about to
crash land and to avoid being blown up by their own bombs they dropped the
load in a line down the main street, destroying several houses (including
hers) as it went.

The damage still shows in the house next door as a large crack running up
the wall by the stairs. The bomber crash landed and a mob was about to lynch
the crew. Grandma pushed her way through the crowd (all 5 ft 2 of her!) and
faced them all down.
"But Nurse! Look what they have done to your house! " said one of the mob.
"Its no worse than what my boys are doing over there." she replied.
And it wasn't.

She then proceded to care for their wounds.

I don't think I would have done that, I think I would have just helped kill
the Germans.

Her recognition came in the form of naming a street after her. Grandads?
Well he got a letter from the king.

Mekon

Lew Hodgett said:

Greg G. wrote:

"New from Mitsubishi, the company that brought you Pearl Harbor"


Having dealt with consumer electronics over the years, I was amazed at
the widespread acceptance of the Mitsubishi product name in American
households. They began market penetration with the moniker M.G.A.,
but later switched to their real name - yeah, the same company that
built suicide bomber aero-planes.


The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yep.

Names like Krupp, Mercedes, BASF mean anything?

Of course.

All were part of the German war machine.

Hitler was a patron of Bush's grandfather.

All are important suppliers in today's global economy.

Our friends and allies of 60 years ago are not necessarily the same as
those today.

Of course, I said I was amazed at _others_ acceptance, not peeved
personally. Some Americans tend to hold quite a grudge...

Heck, I still meet a Southerner or two that resents the North for the
Civil War... :-o


Greg G.

Leon said:


"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .
Leon said:

Absolutely, today's generation could do it IF the government bureaucracy
and
tree huggers would let them do their job.

Uh... Tree Huggers? No to be difficult Leon, but what on earth do
environmentalists have to do with war?! g


I was being extremely general there. I see the personality of that group as
the same as many other groups. Like the Dip Ship 1999.44.49.110 that likes
to quote casualties and do nothing to help.

Never stereotype... g
But I wholeheartedly agree with you concerning Mr. Fake IP address.


Greg G.

Many fine responses. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but
shouldn't it be "Least we forget". Seems to me 'least we not forget'
is a double negative saying we should forget. Kind of like 'I ain't
got none".

Mike in Arkansas said:

Many fine responses. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but
shouldn't it be "Least we forget". Seems to me 'least we not forget'
is a double negative saying we should forget. Kind of like 'I ain't
got none".

Noticed that as well - but didn't want to make an issue of it... g


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

Mike in Arkansas said:


Many fine responses. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but
shouldn't it be "Least we forget". Seems to me 'least we not forget'
is a double negative saying we should forget. Kind of like 'I ain't
got none".


Noticed that as well - but didn't want to make an issue of it... g


Greg G.
Or maybe it should be "lest we forget".
j4

"jo4hn" wrote in message
...
Greg G. wrote:

Mike in Arkansas said:


Many fine responses. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but
shouldn't it be "Least we forget". Seems to me 'least we not forget'
is a double negative saying we should forget. Kind of like 'I ain't
got none".


Noticed that as well - but didn't want to make an issue of it... g


Greg G.
Or maybe it should be "lest we forget".
j4

Thats it. the original doesn't make any sense at all. "Lest we forget"
translated into colloquial English is simply "So that we don't forget".

In Australia there are service men and women's clubs in almost every town
called RSLs Every evening in every one the lights are dimmed and these words
are heard over the loudspeaker.

At the going down of the sun
And in the morning
We shall remember them
Lest we forget.

Everyone stands and faces the eternal flame in silence, all activity stops
out of respect to the fallen.


Mekon

Greg wrote in
:

Lew Hodgett said:

Greg G. wrote:

"New from Mitsubishi, the company that brought you Pearl Harbor"


Having dealt with consumer electronics over the years, I was amazed at
the widespread acceptance of the Mitsubishi product name in American
households. They began market penetration with the moniker M.G.A.,
but later switched to their real name - yeah, the same company that
built suicide bomber aero-planes.


The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yep.

Names like Krupp, Mercedes, BASF mean anything?

Of course.

All were part of the German war machine.

Hitler was a patron of Bush's grandfather.

All are important suppliers in today's global economy.

Our friends and allies of 60 years ago are not necessarily the same as
those today.

Of course, I said I was amazed at _others_ acceptance, not peeved
personally. Some Americans tend to hold quite a grudge...

Heck, I still meet a Southerner or two that resents the North for the
Civil War... :-o


Greg G.


Ya' mean the War of Northern Agression? ;-)

"Mike in Arkansas" wrote in message
oups.com...
Many fine responses. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but
shouldn't it be "Least we forget". Seems to me 'least we not forget'
is a double negative saying we should forget. Kind of like 'I ain't
got none".


Probably "lest we forget" would be the best.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Hitler was a patron of Bush's grandfather.


Joe Kennedy and Charles Lindberg were fans of the Nazi experiment.

Then there was the true monster, FDR's "Uncle Joe," who caused more deaths
than the Austrian corporal. He had lots of fans, too.

On 12/8/2005 9:09 PM Greg G. mumbled something about the following:

Heck, I still meet a Southerner or two that resents the North for the
Civil War... :-o

Most of us TRUE Southerners still resent the North, and there was
NOTHING civil about "The War of Northern Aggression".

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:39:20 +0000, Cothian wrote:

Heck, I still meet a Southerner or two that resents the North for the
Civil War... :-o


Ya' mean the War of Northern Agression? ;-)

That's the one.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 05:51:16 +0000, Mekon wrote:

In Australia there are service men and women's clubs in almost every town
called RSLs Every evening in every one the lights are dimmed and these
words are heard over the loudspeaker.

At the going down of the sun
And in the morning
We shall remember them
Lest we forget.

Everyone stands and faces the eternal flame in silence, all activity stops
out of respect to the fallen.

Hats off to the Aussies. They've got it right.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:24:54 -0500, Greg wrote:

mac davis said:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:24:21 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
link.net...
It is 64 years today, since 12/07/41, "a day that shall live in infamy"
per FDR.

Least we not forget.


I think we've pretty near forgotten. One two line, half column blurb under
"Things On This Date In History" was it in the major local paper.

Some of these young history teachers should be put on a plane to Hawaii and
then made to stand for a half day or so on the Arizona Memorial. The rest of
the day at the Punch Bowl.


If it makes ya feel any better, Charlie, the front page of our local paper had
pictures and articles about the local celebration and showed a shot of a Pearl
Harbor survivor reading the names of local folks who died in the attack, while
another P. H. vet rand the bell..


"New from Mitsubishi, the company that brought you Pearl Harbor"

Having dealt with consumer electronics over the years, I was amazed at
the widespread acceptance of the Mitsubishi product name in American
households. They began market penetration with the moniker M.G.A.,
but later switched to their real name - yeah, the same company that
built suicide bomber aero-planes.

I thought at first it was perhaps a guilt thing over the dropping of
the 3 "bombs", but have now decided it's just lack of historical
perspective and general stupidity. If the Taliban started building
cheap cars to finance terrorist attacks, some idiot dealer over here
would stock a boatload of them, and consumers would buy them.

Everyone I knew that fought in WWII - the big one - has long since
fled yuppie-town, and left me here to content with this latest breed
of insular idiots.

And since I neglected to mention it, _Thank You_ to all who suffered
through one of the goriest wars in History, against foes that defined
the oft bandied about phrase "Axis of Evil". One moments hesitation
or doubt on the part of any of the Allied Troops could have resulted
in a totally different outcome... Hitler was working _very_ hard to
acquire true "weapons of mass destruction". These brave soldier's
sacrifices are the reason I can sit here and bitch about the current
crop of idiot head-in-the-sand politicians without being hauled off to
a hidden concentration camp and tortured.

FWIW,

Greg G.

Greg... remember (if you're old enough) when Nissin got brave enough to stop
hiding behind the name "Datsun"?


mac

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