Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.

Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
as of late.

Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?

Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?

Thanks,


Greg G.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg wrote:


Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.




Is the Unisaw still worth having,

of course



or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
better choice.

IMHO no.


Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
as of late.


Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last
October.


Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?


Handwheels are cast iron with heavy machined steel tapered handle

Cast iron Trunion design has not changed since the late 1940's except
for adding stock in areas to minimize breakage during shipment.

Same motor mount.


Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?

Thanks,


Greg G.

I've been looking to upgrade my TS for awhile now. I've been eyeing
the 1023S for awhile, so when I saw your post asking about the Unisaw
for $1299, my first thought was no, but I don't have experience with
either to advise from actual use. Although, I did read some reviews
from some very impressed people on Amazon regarding the 1023S, so I
would have a hard time spending an extra $400 (or $375 for the SL) on
a refurbished Unisaw.

Many of the pros here could probably justify the extra $400, but for my
budding shop I'd rather put that extra $$ on a Grizzly 14" band saw.

There's delivery charges to consider as well. The local Unisaw dealer
won't charge you freight.

JMHO

Jeff

I used the older 70's vintage Unisaws in college and at a friend's shop.
When I started shopping to upgrade to a cabinet saw 4-5 years ago I was
pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw. After looking at newer Unisaws I
decided to expand my search. They weren't what they used to be and frankly
they haven't improved since (Handwheel brake nuts for example).

My final decision did come down to Unisaw, Grizzly 1023S and the Jets. The
1023 won based on value and the fact it reminded me so much of the earlier
Unisaws. This included both visual and tactile impressions (smooth
handwheels, tabletop machining/flatness, specifications, sound, vibration,
etc.) I do believe the Unisaw is still a fine machine but I cannot
personally justify the extra hundreds of dollars for the brand name. My
machine has served me well for four years, requires very little adjustment,
and Grizzly delivery support is great. I have never had to use their
product support.

So There!
RonB

BTW - Grizzly will probably provide the names of up to two recent customers,
in your area, who have made recent purchases of a 1023 (and who have agreed
to talk to folks like you). This service, plus a trip to the Springfield
store, won me over.

I have a Unisaw and I love it, but problems such as a warped extension
table and slightly warped left wing have left me wondering if I would
ever purchase another Delta product. My DJ-20 joiner has a small pit in
the outfeed table. Not enough to take it back, but the quality
assurance just wasn't there. I'm not sure you'd be any better off with
a Grizzly. I've heard horor stories from many fellow woodworkers with
various brands of tools, and I'm wondering if buying tools is getting
to be a crap shoot. The folks who seem to get it right, in my opinion,
these days are the Canadians. The quality of tools from Canada is to me
impressive. Just my opinion.

Don

"rickluce" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm not sure you'd be any better off with
a Grizzly. I've heard horor stories from many fellow woodworkers with
various brands of tools, and I'm wondering if buying tools is getting
to be a crap shoot.

I'm a happy 1023 owner. No horror story. Works great.

-j

Greg writes:

Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
as of late.

I bought a refurbished Unisaw in 2002. The serial number indicated that
it was built in 1999. I would have thought it was brand new if I didn't
know it was a refurb.

In my case, it included the magnetic switch that usually costs several
hundred extra on a new one.

The 1999 models still had the metal cover over the motor.

The quality of the fit and finish is very good. I like to support made in
the USA when possible and it makes sense. (I'll buy the $3 chinese tool
for a one-time project instead of the USA made one that costs $12.)

Brian Elfert

If it helps, the Grizzly is made in Taiwan, the Unisaw is now partly made in Taiwan. The Unisaw still uses traditional non-metric hardware, don’t know about the Grizzly.

The cost of a NEW Unisaw 10-in, 3hp, with a 50-in Biesemeyer commercial fence system is only $100 to $200 (s/h included) more than the refirb’d unit mentioned above. I opted for the Delta product (new) because of the Biesemeyer fence, an upgraded Grizzly fence meant paying extra for a 2nd fence and getting stuck with one I didn’t want or need. Didn’t/don’t have a clue what I’m doing, made the decision on the Biesemeyer fence based on numerous reviews and user comments. Maybe I’ll feel differently about the Biesemeyer commercial fence later down the road, but for now I’m still tickled pink.

joe2 said:


If it helps, the Grizzly is made in Taiwan, the Unisaw is now partly
made in Taiwan. The Unisaw still uses traditional non-metric hardware,
don’t know about the Grizzly.

Almost everything cast-iron comes from China these days. :-\
Metric/Imperial, who cares - as long as they're not mixed up
on the same machine (damned Fords).

The cost of a NEW Unisaw 10-in, 3hp, with a 50-in Biesemeyer commercial
fence system is only $100 to $200 (s/h included) more than the refirb’d

I don't know where you are getting your prices, but I've never seen a
Unisaw w/50" Beis and tableboard for less than $1699 w/ local pickup.
These are going for $1249. Where are you getting that price in 2005
dollars?



Greg G.

I hope we are talking about the same saw… I just got my Unisaw last month, model 36-L3B. It is 10-in, 3hp, extended table, Biesemeyer 50-in commercial fence, Delta’s mobile base, $1499. Actually, delivery wasn’t totally free because there was a $13.00 “booking” fee.

I just looked at the website, price has jumped $50 ($1549), maybe adjustments for changing fuel costs?!?

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=36-830A

I'm new to the Unisaw. Are we on the same page with these Unisaws?

I opted for the Delta product (new) because of the Biesemeyer fence, an
upgraded
Grizzly fence meant paying extra for a 2nd fence and getting stuck with
one I didn't
want or need.

Joe:
I really am not trying to pull your chain. However, I have seen comments
and confusion over the years regarding the need to replace the 1023S fence
with the upgraded Shop Fox or a Bies. The 1023S comes standard with the
Shop Fox Classic fence which is a pretty close Biesmemeyer knock-off. I
have this saw/fence combination on my 1023S. When I purchased my machine
Griz was also touting the 1023Z and variants that had the Shop Fox
"Precision" fence. In my opinion, and apparently others, the "Precision"
fence isn't necessarily a step up - even though it costs more. When we
visited the Springfield store just prior to my purchase (four years ago) I
mentioned some reports I had read regarding some "Precision" problems to our
sales rep. He diplomatically said that his machine had the "Classic" fence
and he would certainly buy it again. The "Precision" fence was truly as
smooth as glass in the store; but apparently it has several moving parts and
I have seen reports of clearance and adjustment issues (which might be
corrected by now).

The old "Classic" is built like a fire plug (or a Bies) and has required
very little adjustment over the years. I believe Griz is marketing an
aluminum version of the Classic now but I know nothing about it. My old
iron fence is heavy, smooth, accurate and easy to use.

RonB

That would be me...confused / ignorant.

Ron-

Not a problem. Thanks for the input. I’m new to the world of quality table saws. All I had to go on were reviews, reports, forum threads; mostly stuff I guess should be considered ‘opinions’. That I would/could get something wrong is something I expected. Ironically, the neighbor across the street bought a Grizzly a couple weeks before me and didn’t say anything at the time. Now being able to see and compare a Griz and a Uni, I’d have no problem at all with owning either of them. Without doing a microscopic comparison, my initial impression is the Griz might be a better value, from a consumer’s perspective. Nonetheless, I still get tool-tingle from that Biesemeyer frence!

joe2 said:

I hope we are talking about the same saw… I just got my Unisaw last
month, model 36-L3B. It is 10-in, 3hp, extended table, Biesemeyer
50-in commercial fence, Delta’s mobile base, $1499. Actually, delivery
wasn’t totally free because there was a $13.00 “booking” fee.

I just looked at the website, price has jumped $50 ($1549), maybe
adjustments for changing fuel costs?!?

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=36-830A

I'm new to the Unisaw. Are we on the same page with these Unisaws?

Well, based on the model numbers, those are old models -
Not that it matters to anyone but the marketing department...
Pretty good prices, however, even if they are old stock.
Newer ain't necessarily better...


Greg G.

I called Delta about the saw (36-L3B) before I bought it; they said it is current Unisaw product, (1) 36-953 saw, (2) BC50(W?) Biesemeyer Comm Fence w/ext’d table, (3) 50-284 mobile base. A local retailer told me Delta renumbered their products not long ago and it has everyone confused. Sound right?!?

That website shows inventory on hand, don’t believe it. They sell out the Unisaw faster than they can get them in. They sell a lot of Unisaws, even while in transit to ship from 1 of 3 distribution points in the US. When I bought my Unisaw it showed 4 available, down from 10 the day before. When I called to order it, they said only 4 saws actually on a truck in route from Delta/Tenn to distribution in New Mex were still available. The saw arrive at my home a week after I ordered it, literally moved off one truck and onto another.

Edit: anyways, my original point was that a brand new Unisaw + Bies comm fence w/ext table + mobile base can be delivered to you for (now) $250 more than one of those referb’d saws.

Greg,
I bought a factory reconditioned Unisaw a couple of years ago from
Redmond Machinery in Atlanta. My story is long and I won't repeat it
here. If you want to read it, cut & past this:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...53276751add9d8

Bottom line is that I've been very pleased with my saw, and the way
Redmond Machinery took care of me. I have found NOTHING different from
a brand-new never-used saw. I'd buy a factory reconditioned saw again
in a heartbeat.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."


Greg G. wrote:
Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.

Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
as of late.

Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?

Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?

Thanks,


Greg G.

rickluce said:

I have a Unisaw and I love it, but problems such as a warped extension
table and slightly warped left wing have left me wondering if I would
ever purchase another Delta product. My DJ-20 joiner has a small pit in
the outfeed table. Not enough to take it back, but the quality
assurance just wasn't there. I'm not sure you'd be any better off with
a Grizzly. I've heard horor stories from many fellow woodworkers with
various brands of tools, and I'm wondering if buying tools is getting
to be a crap shoot. The folks who seem to get it right, in my opinion,
these days are the Canadians. The quality of tools from Canada is to me
impressive. Just my opinion.

Don

I have a Delta X jointer - I was lucky, but many had problems with
warped fences. My contractor saw had a table that was so warped, it
left a wave on the end of a cut board. This was years ago, and the
first tool I purchased - so it took me a while to figure out what was
wrong. I ended up grinding the thing by hand to true it up. They do
seem to have a problem with rushing green castings into production too
soon. And the customer service has really deteriorated. They used to
respond quickly to warranty parts replacements, but the last time I
called for a warped bandsaw wheel on a brand new 14" Delta, I never
got the parts. Called again, still never got the part. I bent the
damned thing true myself in order to use it, and just gave up on them.

The same dealer also carries General. Their left tilt contractor saws
and the 650s are good saws but I hear bad things about their support
and manuals. And I'm not too certain about the availability of
accessories like snap-in splitters and zero clearance inserts. Their
fence is a nice Canadian made Beis clone.

I hear great things about the 1023SLX Grizzly, but really horrible
stories about the delivery process. Much down time and broken/damaged
parts from freight handlers. They DO seem to respond quickly with new
parts, no questions asked. And the massive carriage and handwheels
action on the 1023 is impressive. But I've never cut wood on one...

I bought the new Porter Cable 2 1/4 HP router kit when it first came
out, and what a pile-o-crap full of Chinese parts. Shoulda gotten an
old, used 690...

Manufacturing, Products and Support are failing miserably in this
country. If something isn't done - like killing off some bean
counters and greedy Wall Street investors, we are going to become a
real third rate country. We've already lost the number one spot.

FWIW,


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg wrote:

Is the Unisaw still worth having,

of course

Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last
October.

You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)



Greg G.

RonB said:

decided to expand my search. They weren't what they used to be and frankly
they haven't improved since (Handwheel brake nuts for example).

I hear ya - that funky T thing is a departure from the nice old knobs.

My final decision did come down to Unisaw, Grizzly 1023S and the Jets. The
1023 won based on value and the fact it reminded me so much of the earlier
Unisaws. This included both visual and tactile impressions (smooth
handwheels, tabletop machining/flatness, specifications, sound, vibration,
etc.) I do believe the Unisaw is still a fine machine but I cannot
personally justify the extra hundreds of dollars for the brand name. My
machine has served me well for four years, requires very little adjustment,
and Grizzly delivery support is great. I have never had to use their
product support.

So There!
RonB

I hear you again! I've always wanted a Unisaw, but when it comes to
laying out cold, hard cash - they worry me these days. Still, I
prefer to buy American products and support my neighbors whenever
possible - but I am tiring of being burned by that desire.
It's getting to the point where when I see Made in USA, it's worse
garbage than the Chinese crap - which is steadily improving.

I live in the SE, and there are no Grizzly dealers. Makes it more
difficult to access their products. But the 1023 looks like a very
nice machine.



Greg G.

DonkeyHody said:

Greg,
I bought a factory reconditioned Unisaw a couple of years ago from
Redmond Machinery in Atlanta. My story is long and I won't repeat it
here.

That's the dealer that is local to me... ;-)
Thanks for the info - I've only bought some small things from them,
and wandered around their scrap yard a bit. It's an interesting place
if you like wood and metal working machinery from the early 1900s.



Greg G.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg wrote:

Frank Boettcher said:

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg wrote:

Is the Unisaw still worth having,

of course

Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last
October.

You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)



Greg G.


Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.

My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also
based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes
used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The
processes and the reality of their statistical capability.

If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is
normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most
refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a
result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor
resets.

And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future,
all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.

Frank

Frank Boettcher said:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg wrote:

You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)

Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.

I thought so... ;-)
That's OK, however. I have a shop full of Delta stuff - along with a
few Jet, and a couple Dewalt pieces. The blue Borg used to carry
Delta, and I bought a fair amount of it there - and at Highland
Hardware. But they have begun to push some horrid house branded stuff
called Tradesman - what a bunch of Bad Chinese Crappola!

My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also
based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes
used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The
processes and the reality of their statistical capability.

It IS the classic woodworkers saw. I just fear that Delta is riding
more on their reputation rather than quality these days...
They are most certainly not the only company doing this - it's a tough
marketplace - but I hate to see it happen. Damned bean-counters and
Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
price.

If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is
normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most
refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a
result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor
resets.

That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but
defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?

And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future,
all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.

Sadly, it's looking that way...
We are losing it to so many other countries.
And when we lose all of our manufacturing capabilities, we lose the
ability to defend our way of life.

JMHO,


Greg G.

Fwiw, it would be in error to presume China cannot or does not produce a quality product. It would also be in error to presume all product that comes from China is quality. Same for Taiwan, where most (all?) cabinet saws are at least in some part now made.

It’s hard to talk about “made in …” without getting into politics. Anyone that watches the global political and economic landscape is aware there is a serious problem with China’s robust and stable economy, global distribution network, securing deep-water shipping port around the world, her buying of gold on the international monetary market, and our trade deficit with that country. It affects not only our nat’l security, but global security as well. China wants to take over the world and she is now well placed to do so economically, and thus improving her chances militarily.

Personally, I boycott anything marked “made in China”, been doing so for most of two decades, but it’s getting harder and harder to get around.

That would be the way to do it, if you had the time. Get a bargain on a
vintage unisaw, have the top flatground, buy a modern motor and link
belts and off you go. The first thing I was disapointed with when I
received my unisaw a couple of years ago was the thickness, or thiness,
of the base sheetmetal. I haven't looked at older unisaws, but they
must be thicker.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

I hear great things about the 1023SLX Grizzly, but really horrible
stories about the delivery process. Much down time and broken/damaged
parts from freight handlers.

When have you heard this? I can't recall anything but good stories about
their deliveries in the past couple of years.

j

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg wrote:

Frank Boettcher said:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg wrote:

You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)

Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.

I thought so... ;-)
That's OK, however. I have a shop full of Delta stuff - along with a
few Jet, and a couple Dewalt pieces. The blue Borg used to carry
Delta, and I bought a fair amount of it there - and at Highland
Hardware. But they have begun to push some horrid house branded stuff
called Tradesman - what a bunch of Bad Chinese Crappola!

My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also
based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes
used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The
processes and the reality of their statistical capability.

It IS the classic woodworkers saw. I just fear that Delta is riding
more on their reputation rather than quality these days...
They are most certainly not the only company doing this - it's a tough
marketplace - but I hate to see it happen. Damned bean-counters and
Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
price.

If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is
normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most
refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a
result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor
resets.

That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but
defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?


No. The table will either be from a foundry in Swee****er, TN
machined by the fine people in Tupelo, MS, or from a foundry in
Waupaca, WI, machined by a subcontractor in North Alabama. Depending
on the time frame of the machines original manufacture and whether the
table was replaced.

And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future,
all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.

Sadly, it's looking that way...
We are losing it to so many other countries.
And when we lose all of our manufacturing capabilities, we lose the
ability to defend our way of life.

JMHO,


Greg G.

joe2 wrote:

Personally, I boycott anything marked “made in China”, been doing so
for most of two decades, but it’s getting harder and harder to get
around.

About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
$250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England. I
could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.

--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

rickluce said:

That would be the way to do it, if you had the time. Get a bargain on a
vintage unisaw, have the top flatground, buy a modern motor and link
belts and off you go. The first thing I was disapointed with when I
received my unisaw a couple of years ago was the thickness, or thiness,
of the base sheetmetal. I haven't looked at older unisaws, but they
must be thicker.

It would be, if you could FIND one. In these parts, I can't find much
of anything other than used, broken Ryobi and B & D tools.
And the price Redmond gets for a "vintage" Unisaw is pretty steep.
Here is an example - $750 - ouch!
http://www.redmond-machinery.com/ima...a/P1010020.JPG

Whole lot-o-work to get this usable...

I'm not really into restoring old machinery at this point, although I
did restore old cars in my youth. And the stories of the widow
selling off the "old saw" in the basement for $300 just ain't
happening - at least not for me.


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg wrote:

That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but
defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?


No. The table will either be from a foundry in Swee****er, TN
machined by the fine people in Tupelo, MS, or from a foundry in
Waupaca, WI, machined by a subcontractor in North Alabama. Depending
on the time frame of the machines original manufacture and whether the
table was replaced.

Well, it's good to know that "something" is still made in the USA.
There is so darned little of it anymore.

/RANT ON

I grew up in the electronics industry, and watched as it deteriorated
to it's current non-existent state. Plants closed nationwide and
moved to Mexico and Asia. Eventually the names were sold off to
Korean, French, and Chinese companies - there are none left.

I still have work clothes made in the USA, ragged and full of holes,
because I refuse to buy Chinese textiles, jeans and tennis shoes. And
these idiots who pay $75 for a sneaker with a "star" endorsement
aren't helping - same crappy Chinese shoes that cost $4.00 to
manufacture. Wall Street loves it, I don't. As a nation, we are
digging our own economic grave. The rich aren't concerned - they've
found a new source of slave laborers that don't sue, demand heath
care, environmental stewardship, or decent salaries. While the ranks
of the poor and unemployed just keep swelling.

8,600 US companies have been sold to foreign interests in the past 10
years for $1.3 Trillion. The US imported $617 billion more than it
exported in 2004. This money acquired by foreign countries is not used
to buy our merchandise as we manufacture very little that other
countries want. They are using it to buy many of our major companies
like Chrysler, Amoco Oil, Arco Oil, Citgo - in addition to entire
industries - 69% of the movie industry, 81% of the cement industry,
100% of the TV manufacturing industry, and 8,600 other major American
companies in the last 10 years.

That $617 Billion equates to approximately $1.25 Million per minute
flowing into foreign hands 24 hours a day / 7 days a week.
In October, the deficit rose to $59 billion, about $1.1 billion more
than in September.

I can only hope I live long enough to see the world stabilize on a
level playing field - before China (and others) have ALL of our
capital and we deteriorate into another has-been, third world country.

Can't happen here? Right - History reveals a different reality.
Many an empire has fallen in the shifting sands of time...
Misplaced National Pride, Arrogance and Denial isn't helping one iota.

Those 'fine folks' in Tupelo, MS, along with millions around the
country, are losing their jobs to outsourcing, and don't have much in
the way of realistic alternative employment. Jobs at McDonalds and
Holiday Inn just don't cut it.

/RANT OFF

Thanks for the info,


Greg G.

Edwin Pawlowski said:

joe2 wrote:

Personally, I boycott anything marked “made in China”, been doing so
for most of two decades, but it’s getting harder and harder to get
around.

About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
$250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England. I
could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.

I hear you - we faced the same situation very recently. Our trusty
old US made toaster oven finally gave it up after 20 odd years, and I
couldn't fix it due to parts unavailability. Looked high and low, but
could not find anything made outside of China. Ended up paying too
much for a crappy GE Toaster Oven from China that I fear is going to
burn the house down. I hate it - it's crap. But what choice did I
have?! None.

I wore ragged jeans for years before the seams literally left my ass
hanging out in the wind because the last US manufacturer (Wrangler)
moved from the US to China - and I refused to buy their product
anymore. I finally broke down in a moment of weakness and bought a
pair, and they sucked! You can blame Wal-Mart and other economic
pressures for that.

Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China,
I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that
were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this
winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an
alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....


Greg G.

Edwin Pawlowski said:

joe2 wrote:

Personally, I boycott anything marked “made in China”, been doing so
for most of two decades, but it’s getting harder and harder to get
around.

OK, Off Topic Crap. But...

While I have been verbally lamenting the loss of US industry, don't
get the idea I am a Nationalist. I buy products from Germany, Italy,
France, England and even Japan and other developed, economically
mature countries without *too* much chagrin.

What I resent is the unlevel playing field that Chinese products
represent, and the total collapse of our own industries as a result.

I have no problem with the Chinese people, but I do not trust the
Government nor their intentions. Their quiet build up of arms and
technology, continuing human rights issues, environmental chaos, and
their not so secret desire to become a world empire once again leads
me to believe that our pandering is a bad thing for us and the world
in general.

And they certainly have no intention of ever buying our products in an
open marketplace - they shun ours and develop their own.
A few examples:

DVDs? No way, the Chinese government promoted the internal
development of CVD and refuses to enforce foreign copyrights.

Cars? Ha! Don't even go there, we can't even sell them to Americans.

Machinery? Well, we don't make anything anymore - other than military
weapons. The Japanese have dominated the robotics industry. And they
already make everything else.

Computer Software? Double Ha-Ha. Bill Gates is fuming at this very
minute - millions of bootleg copies of Windows are in use already.
And, they have developed their own Linux based O.S.

What is left to sell them? Food? I bought a gallon bottle of apple
juice at Kroger the other day, and on the side of the bottle, in tiny
little letters, was stamped "Imported from China". I took it back and
raised hell. The last thing I'm going to drink is a cadmium, mercury,
PCB, etc. filled bottle of apple juice from China.

And why didn't we embrace the Russians with as much zeal as we have
the Chinese? After all, they attempted to embrace democracy and
capitalism, and we snubbed them. And as a result, arms and nuclear
materials have spread worldwide, and they are near chaos. Not very
good democracy building, if you ask me... Even though the old Soviet
blok countries are inching forward, with companies like Groz and such,
they certainly haven't received the economic boost we handed China.

While I'm obviously not a foreign affairs guru, it makes me wonder
what the hell we are doing - Well, actually I do know... $$$$$$$$$
Avarice reigns supreme. :-\



Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message

Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China,
I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that
were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this
winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an
alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....

Well, you could take a trip up to see us in Canada. We've got original home
grown fur polar bear underwear. Guaranteed down to -50°F. And if you're
really lucky, you might find one or two 4" bear claws still attached to the
underwear. Also guaranteed to make sure you wake up quick when dressing
first thing in the morning.

g

Upscale said:

"Greg G." wrote in message

alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....

Well, you could take a trip up to see us in Canada. We've got original home
grown fur polar bear underwear. Guaranteed down to -50°F. And if you're
really lucky, you might find one or two 4" bear claws still attached to the
underwear. Also guaranteed to make sure you wake up quick when dressing
first thing in the morning.

Sounds like you had company that night, and attempted to don the wrong
furry thing the next morning. And there is one thing I *don't* want
near my genetic jewels, it is a resentful 800lb bear and a sharp set
of 4" claws. Nothing could be worse after a 4 bear night, eh?...

But seriously, (if that is possible at this point), I don't think
polar bear underwear would be very comfortable in the SE US.
It's not THAT cold... and would most likely look like I had a severe
sphincter malfunction. g

Man, has THIS drifted off topic!


Greg G.

Ba r r y said:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg wrote:

Damned bean-counters and
Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
price.

The first are only responding to the second.

Not necessarily. I look for things that will last - for eons.
If I can't find quality, and have to buy cheap crap - then I go
directly to the source. Why support a lethargic firm and it's
overpaid CEO and marketing department when it does not innovate, but
only rests on it's past successes - successes that usually resulted
from a lack of competition.

These days, however, in an attempt to squeeze every dime out of each
sale, so that greedy investors can quickly collect huge dividends for
essentially doing nothing, they close the local plant and move it
overseas. Does this result in a lowering of the price? Not usually,
just greater profits. This short sighted mentality is destroying our
economy - whether originating from investors, CEOs, or politicians.

But then again, consider Toyota. G

Toyota is a case where most of the product line costs more than the
competition, but generate a real sentiment of getting what you pay
for. Comparing a Corolla to a Cavalier, a 4Runner to a Trail Blazer,
a Tacoma to a Colorado, a Malibu to a Camry, and a Prius, to well...
NOTHING, it's very easy to see why one company is growing in leaps and
bounds and the other is dying. One pays engineers, the other pays
marketeers.

Yup.

We'll never know if companies like Delta had stuck to their quality
guns, and occasionally showed some fresh ideas and innovation, if the
purchaser would have stuck to them.

I find it interesting that, for instance Delta, has sold basically the
same Unisaw for 40 odd years. They change the handwheels, paint
color, advertising BS - but the product hasn't changed substantially.
They stand frozen like a deer in the headlights, fearful of making any
substantial changes, for fear of loosing what reputation they have
left. Instead of boldly forging ahead to improve the product through
simple creative thought. Leave the basic mechanism alone - it works.
But update the dust collection (Dewalt), improve the off switch and
it's location (Jet), improve the horrific guards and splitter
assemblies (numerous aftermarket companies) - or God forbid - do
something radical like improve safety (SawStop). Cripes, those cast
iron molds and metal bending machines must be paid for by now.
Innovate - or someone else will.

Companies like Grizzly and Jet have not only built cheaper products,
but in some cases, more innovative tools at increasing levels of
quality with better end user support.

See? I warned you...

Compare old imported iron to the current offerings. It's all kind of
like comparing a '75 Corolla to a new one. No matter if it's cars or
tools, consumer markets are moving targets.

Targets. Hmm - I wish I could get away with using them as targets. ;-)

I bought a blown up '68 Toyota back in '74 and rebuilt the engine for
my sister - long before anyone considered foreign import cars a
threat. I could tell we were in trouble. If they hadn't been so
damned ugly, they would have been more of a threat. But they have
fixed that nicely, Thank You. Incidentally, that '68 Toyota ran for
over 300,000 miles, and finally died in 1986. Never gave a minutes
trouble until then.

Later,


Greg G.

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
But then again, consider Toyota. G

Toyota is a case where most of the product line costs more than the
competition, but generate a real sentiment of getting what you pay
for. Comparing a Corolla to a Cavalier, a 4Runner to a Trail Blazer,
a Tacoma to a Colorado, a Malibu to a Camry, and a Prius, to well...
NOTHING, it's very easy to see why one company is growing in leaps and
bounds and the other is dying. One pays engineers, the other pays
marketeers.

Interesting you pick Toyota. Many of their cars are built in the US too.
As is some industrial products like forklift trucks (I've bought 4 of them).
My plan was to "buy American" but the American brand had imported engines
and the foreign brand was made in Kentucky so that idea had no merit. In
side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
drove them in our plant.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
as of late.

Well Delta has had a problem with Unisaws in the last 7 or 8 years. The
factory was blaming the shippers and apparently they have finally admitted
to improper assembly methods. Trunions have been breaking at what I would
call an alarming rate. If the saw looks like new you have ask yourself why
it had to be refurbished as it should have lasted many many years. I would
say it is a good bet that the trunion had to be replaced. Something to
thhink about.

"mogura" wrote in message
t...

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

I hear great things about the 1023SLX Grizzly, but really horrible
stories about the delivery process. Much down time and broken/damaged
parts from freight handlers.

When have you heard this? I can't recall anything but good stories about
their deliveries in the past couple of years.

Deliveries of wrecked equipment from Grizzly was a serious problem a few
years ago.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message news:ZC39f.5009

Interesting you pick Toyota. Many of their cars are built in the US too.
As is some industrial products like forklift trucks (I've bought 4 of
them).
My plan was to "buy American" but the American brand had imported engines
and the foreign brand was made in Kentucky so that idea had no merit.

The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the construction
materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior?
Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop
management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are the
same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?

side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
drove them in our plant.

The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction
quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message news:ZC39f.5009

The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the
construction
materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior?

I think he was indicating that the quality remains high despite the fact
that they are built in the US. Edwin was commenting on Barrys comparison of
Japaneese Owned products to US owned products. Edwin pointed out that many
Toyotas are built in the US.
I think the Japanese products are superior regardless of country of origin
because of engeneering and QC. I do not doubt that the US can build a great
product as long as the design is great.





Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop
management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are
the
same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?

side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
drove them in our plant.

The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction
quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Edwin Pawlowski said:

joe2 wrote:

Personally, I boycott anything marked "made in China", been doing so
for most of two decades, but it's getting harder and harder to get
around.

About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
$250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England.
I
could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.

I hear you - we faced the same situation very recently. Our trusty
old US made toaster oven finally gave it up after 20 odd years, and I
couldn't fix it due to parts unavailability. Looked high and low, but
could not find anything made outside of China. Ended up paying too
much for a crappy GE Toaster Oven from China that I fear is going to
burn the house down. I hate it - it's crap. But what choice did I
have?! None.

I wore ragged jeans for years before the seams literally left my ass
hanging out in the wind because the last US manufacturer (Wrangler)
moved from the US to China - and I refused to buy their product
anymore. I finally broke down in a moment of weakness and bought a
pair, and they sucked! You can blame Wal-Mart and other economic
pressures for that.

Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China,
I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that
were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this
winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an
alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....

Visit your local thrift shop - it may be used but usually is still in good
working order and you will benefit the group that they are supporting. . .

BB

"Upscale" wrote in message

The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the
construction
materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior?
Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop
management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are
the
same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?

My point is that although we like to buy American, some foreign makes are
superior. So superior that they now justify putting assembly plants in the
US. EVERY country is capable of making junk or making a quality product. It
is the management philosophy of the company that makes the difference,
followed by training and quality control To stay in business, a company has
to make a profit. To sustain sales, they have to make a product people want
to buy. While I've never owned a Japanese car, there are a couple of my
list to check out for my next purchase, probably next summer. It may be
another nail in the coffin for GM as most of my cars have been for many
years.


side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
drove them in our plant.

The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction
quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?

Ease of use and operability too. Toyota has the best view through the mast
when driving forward, a big plus. Buying forklifts is worse than buying a
used car. The two salesmen were fiercely competing down to the last minutes.
I had one in the conference room and the other called twice trying to better
his deal. When both trucks were in our plant for test use, each salesman
pointed out why his was better in complete contradiction to the other. One
has a high air intake, the other low. Each says the other sucks in more
dust. One has controls low, the other high, each says his were less tiring
to use and more ergonomic.

We went from one truck to two, then to four in the past six years, but the
real price negotiation was for the first. We maintain the same price level.
They make very little on the truck sale , but they make money on the
quarterly service for years.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/