Loose Tenon mortise and tenon joinery is becoming more accessible to,
though not necessarily affordable for, the amateur woodworker thanks
to several products that have become available over the last several
years. Right now, I'm aware of three router based - non CNC - jigs /
tools that will cut end grain mortises - the TREND M&T JIG, the Leigh
FMT jig and the MultiRouter - along with the new Festool DOMINO that's
not router based.

What I hope to do is show, with simple annotated diagrams, the
procedure
for doing end grain mortises with each jig / tool and describe the
strenghths and weaknesses (if any) of the available jigs / tools when
it comes to this specific application.

I know the procedure for cutting mortises in end grain using the TREND
M&T JIG and the Festool DOMINO. I've never used the Leigh FMT jig or
the MultiRouter. I'm working on the Leigh FMT jig first, trying to
under-
stand how it works and the procedure for using it - in real basic steps.

The goal is to provide info that can help other woodworkers, looking
into ways to make loose tenon M&T joinery part of their joints arsenal,
with their purchasing decision. I'll put the stuff up on my woodworking
site after "peer review" is completed and post the URL to it in
rec.woodworking.

I have NO connection or affiliation with any of the jigs /tools makers
or sellers of any of the jigs / tool noted above, and paid the going
price
for the TREND M&T JIG and the DOMINO. - no freebies or discounts
to influence the evaluation. (When I got the DOMINO I gave the TREND
M&T JIG to a woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short on Cash.
If you have a tool or jig that's been replaced by a New AND Improved
one and don't feel like hasseling with selling or swapping it - find a
woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short On Cash and
make his/her day. What YOU get - priceless).

Attached is an illustration of the Leigh FMT procedure as I think it
works.
Need someone who HAS used the FMT - preferably successfully - to look
over the attachment and let me know if I've missed something significant
or got something wrong. Comments can be posted here under this
post's subject line, or to rec.woodworking using this post's subject
line
or e-mailed directly to me (my e-mail address is real, and the only one
I have - no HotMail or Yahoo drop outs).

Thanks for reading all this and hope to thank some of you for
helping out.

charlie b

Now that this post finally appeared, and I have looked at it, I believe that
everything that you have shown in your diagram for morticing on the FMT is
true except that it isn't necessary to mark the placement of the second
mortice (on the bottom) if it is going to be placed in the center of the
part. The FMT has a guide that you can lock in place to position parts at
the same XY location and the second mortice will come out in the correct
position without marking for it. If you wanted to place mortices off center
or mirror imaged from each other on each end it's a bit more involved but
you can avoid marking the follow on pieces if you use the FMT's top table
positioning capability to locate each of the 2 mortices.

For Mirror Image Morticing of both ends of a part.

1. You would have to mark the center positions of the mortices on both ends
of the first part.
2. Position the part so that it's face side is toward the FMT and the
mortice to be cut is left of the part's center.
3. Locate the part roughly centered in the FMT's XY table range, clamp the
part in position and position with the top end touching the crosshair piece
and the locating rail along the left edge of the part.
4. Position the FMT's XY table to align the crosshairs with the mortice
center marks on the part and lock the XY table in this position.
5. Set and lock the left end stop and the forward stop of the XY table.
6. Retract the Crosshair piece and cut this mortice.
7. Unclamp and rotate the part so the bottom end is now the top and it's
face is still toward the FMT. Position it against the side rail and clamp it
in place with the top end touching the crosshair piece.
6. Unlock and move the XY table to the right and position the crosshairs on
the center mark of the mortice. Now lock the XY table in position.
7. Set and lock the right and rear table stops.
8. Retract the crosshair piece and cut this mortice.

The FMT is now set up to make mirror positioned mortices on the next and
follow on parts without the need to mark the mortice positions.

1. Extend the crosshair piece, position and clamp the part against the
locating rail with it's face toward the FMT. Retract the crosshair piece
(now used only for a vertical stop)
2. Unlock and move the XY table to the left and front stops and lock it in
position.
3. Cut the mortice.
4. Unclamp and rotate the part keeping it's face side toward the FMT. Extend
the crosshair piece and position the part against the crosshair piece and
the side guide rail. Clamp the part in position and retract the crosshair
piece.
5. Unlock and move the XY table to the right and rear stops and lock it in
position.
6. Cut the mortice.
Done

Once the FMT has been set up it's easier to make mortices and then make the
matching tenons to fit them than it is to make just mortices and then make
floating tenons separately. The only time that I make floating tenon joints
now is when I want to make M&T joints at a significant angle to the grain,
such as when joining 45 degree mitered pieces. Since the tenons made on the
part would end up with significant cross grain and would not be very strong
I would make mortices in each piece and then cut a floating tenon from
straight grained stock to go between them.

It's really quite simple but a bit difficult to describe. Watching their
Demo DVD explains everything.
--
Charley


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Loose Tenon mortise and tenon joinery is becoming more accessible to,
though not necessarily affordable for, the amateur woodworker thanks
to several products that have become available over the last several
years. Right now, I'm aware of three router based - non CNC - jigs /
tools that will cut end grain mortises - the TREND M&T JIG, the Leigh
FMT jig and the MultiRouter - along with the new Festool DOMINO that's
not router based.

What I hope to do is show, with simple annotated diagrams, the
procedure
for doing end grain mortises with each jig / tool and describe the
strenghths and weaknesses (if any) of the available jigs / tools when
it comes to this specific application.

I know the procedure for cutting mortises in end grain using the TREND
M&T JIG and the Festool DOMINO. I've never used the Leigh FMT jig or
the MultiRouter. I'm working on the Leigh FMT jig first, trying to
under-
stand how it works and the procedure for using it - in real basic steps.

The goal is to provide info that can help other woodworkers, looking
into ways to make loose tenon M&T joinery part of their joints arsenal,
with their purchasing decision. I'll put the stuff up on my woodworking
site after "peer review" is completed and post the URL to it in
rec.woodworking.

I have NO connection or affiliation with any of the jigs /tools makers
or sellers of any of the jigs / tool noted above, and paid the going
price
for the TREND M&T JIG and the DOMINO. - no freebies or discounts
to influence the evaluation. (When I got the DOMINO I gave the TREND
M&T JIG to a woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short on Cash.
If you have a tool or jig that's been replaced by a New AND Improved
one and don't feel like hasseling with selling or swapping it - find a
woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short On Cash and
make his/her day. What YOU get - priceless).

Attached is an illustration of the Leigh FMT procedure as I think it
works.
Need someone who HAS used the FMT - preferably successfully - to look
over the attachment and let me know if I've missed something significant
or got something wrong. Comments can be posted here under this
post's subject line, or to rec.woodworking using this post's subject
line
or e-mailed directly to me (my e-mail address is real, and the only one
I have - no HotMail or Yahoo drop outs).

Thanks for reading all this and hope to thank some of you for
helping out.

charlie b

Before I get to Charley's great response - note that in my earlier
attachment,
#8 has an error, The "back view" is wrong. The mortises should be
shown
at the front left corner of the part in that view.

Charley wrote:

snip

it isn't necessary to mark the placement of the second
mortice (on the bottom) if it is going to be placed in the center of the
part. The FMT has a guide that you can lock in place to position parts at
the same XY location and the second mortice will come out in the correct
position without marking for it. If you wanted to place mortices off center
or mirror imaged from each other on each end it's a bit more involved but
you can avoid marking the follow on pieces if you use the FMT's top table
positioning capability to locate each of the 2 mortices.

Ah - and there's "the rub" - the Devil in The Details. While
perfectly
centered mortises make using jigs a LOT easier, you don't need to
keep
track of parts orientation in the jig since things are symetric on
both X & Y, there are times when you need an "offset" mortise.
THAT's where things get a bit trickier - requiring that you mark the
mortise center on BOTH ends, another jig set up (which on the FMT
is quick and easy but you still have to do it) AND the need to pay
very close attention to parts orientation. I hate when I spend the
time to get the show face grain working together then blow an
orientation when doing the mortises on one part resulting in the
non show face showing. Despite the odds, when that happens,
the non show face has an ugly pitch pocket or the like right in
the middle of it

snip

Once the FMT has been set up it's easier to make mortices and then make the
matching tenons to fit them than it is to make just mortices and then make
floating tenons separately.

With traditional mortise and tenon joints, it's those damned tenons
that
complicate thing. You have to account for the length of the two
tenons.
And god forbid you don't cut all the tenons for all the parts that
are
supposed to be the same length BEFORE you change the depth of cut
on the router. I never seem to be able to reproduce a set up I
changed,
even 10 minutes ago.

The only time that I make floating tenon joints
now is when I want to make M&T joints at a significant angle to the grain,
such as when joining 45 degree mitered pieces. Since the tenons made on the
part would end up with significant cross grain and would not be very strong
I would make mortices in each piece and then cut a floating tenon from
straight grained stock to go between them.

I found angle tenons a bit tricky when using the TREND M&T JIG. The
layout
requires more time since the center of the mortise at the top of the
tenon
is not centered on the part - the bottom, at the shoulders, is.

It's really quite simple but a bit difficult to describe. Watching their
Demo DVD explains everything.

Will request the DVD - thanks for the info.

charlie b

Charlieb,

You could just re-orient the part in the FMT or whatever tool to cut a
mirror mortise, but then you would be referencing the position of the
mortises from opposite sides of the part, which is a basic no-no of
woodworking. To get accuracy I always pick a face side and then mark one
edge and one end on that face side with chalk. The face side and the marked
edges are where I derive all measurements from to machine that part. Working
from opposite edges or opposite faces will induce board thickness and
measurement errors and result in a poorly machined part that will require
all kinds of sanding and manual fitting adjustments. This will be true no
matter what kind of tool that you use to machine your parts, even a table
saw. I prefer to make my parts without these accumulating errors so that my
joints fit with little or no sanding, and that's why I always mark and
reference from the face side only. Many steps can be eliminated if you don't
follow this rule, but quality will suffer.

--
Charley


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Before I get to Charley's great response - note that in my earlier
attachment,
#8 has an error, The "back view" is wrong. The mortises should be
shown
at the front left corner of the part in that view.

Charley wrote:

snip

it isn't necessary to mark the placement of the second
mortice (on the bottom) if it is going to be placed in the center of the
part. The FMT has a guide that you can lock in place to position parts
at
the same XY location and the second mortice will come out in the correct
position without marking for it. If you wanted to place mortices off
center
or mirror imaged from each other on each end it's a bit more involved
but
you can avoid marking the follow on pieces if you use the FMT's top
table
positioning capability to locate each of the 2 mortices.

Ah - and there's "the rub" - the Devil in The Details. While
perfectly
centered mortises make using jigs a LOT easier, you don't need to
keep
track of parts orientation in the jig since things are symetric on
both X & Y, there are times when you need an "offset" mortise.
THAT's where things get a bit trickier - requiring that you mark the
mortise center on BOTH ends, another jig set up (which on the FMT
is quick and easy but you still have to do it) AND the need to pay
very close attention to parts orientation. I hate when I spend the
time to get the show face grain working together then blow an
orientation when doing the mortises on one part resulting in the
non show face showing. Despite the odds, when that happens,
the non show face has an ugly pitch pocket or the like right in
the middle of it

snip

Once the FMT has been set up it's easier to make mortices and then make
the
matching tenons to fit them than it is to make just mortices and then
make
floating tenons separately.

With traditional mortise and tenon joints, it's those damned tenons
that
complicate thing. You have to account for the length of the two
tenons.
And god forbid you don't cut all the tenons for all the parts that
are
supposed to be the same length BEFORE you change the depth of cut
on the router. I never seem to be able to reproduce a set up I
changed,
even 10 minutes ago.

The only time that I make floating tenon joints
now is when I want to make M&T joints at a significant angle to the
grain,
such as when joining 45 degree mitered pieces. Since the tenons made on
the
part would end up with significant cross grain and would not be very
strong
I would make mortices in each piece and then cut a floating tenon from
straight grained stock to go between them.

I found angle tenons a bit tricky when using the TREND M&T JIG. The
layout
requires more time since the center of the mortise at the top of the
tenon
is not centered on the part - the bottom, at the shoulders, is.

It's really quite simple but a bit difficult to describe. Watching their
Demo DVD explains everything.

Will request the DVD - thanks for the info.

charlie b

Charlieb,

It's me again.

I didn't provide my thoughts about the Trend M&T jig when I responded
yesterday. I purchased one before I bought the FMT and used it for about 48
hours before deciding that it was unacceptable and took it back. I found
that figuring out which pieces to use to determine the movement of the
router to make the right sixe mortice and then changing it all to make a
tenon to fit the mortice that I had just cut was very frustrating. I had to
be very careful not to let the router move away from the template guide even
slightly or the tenon would be ruined. I also discovered that there was no
way to precisely adjust for the tightness of the joint. You just had to live
with whatever you got. The other thing that bothered me was how unstable the
whole assembly was. It was easy to distort the frame significantly if you
pushed the router a bit harder to keep it against the guides and this
distorting transfered to the joint being cut. Way too much hocus pocus and
Kentucky windage was required for me to get good joints. The guys that
demonstrated it at the shows aparently had hundreds of hours of experience
to get good joints, but after trying one myself and then going back and
watching another demonstration I realized that they didn't get tight joints
very often either. It made good mortices for floating tenons, but was
lacking when it came time to make mortices and then tenons to fit them.

I once watched a demonstration of a JDS Multi-router. It made great mortices
and tenons, but getting a tighter joint fit required switching to a slightly
oversized template to cut the matching tenon. They had over and under sized
templates that they switched to whenever it was needed. This helped get a
better fit, but there were only a few over and under sizes available, so
sometimes the result was either too loose or too tight with no ability for a
slightly tighter or looser adjustment. A similar cheaper design of the
multi-router exists. It's marketed by Woodworkers Supply. This one has many
plastic parts and no over/under sized templates. At a demonstration of this
one I caught the demonstrator wrapping the template follower with scotch
tape to adjust for joint tightness. It worked, but not very precisely, and
wore out after making only a few joints. I consider this one a hobby toy and
not a serious tool but it's price is almost as high as an FMT if you include
the templates.

--
Charley

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Loose Tenon mortise and tenon joinery is becoming more accessible to,
though not necessarily affordable for, the amateur woodworker thanks
to several products that have become available over the last several
years. Right now, I'm aware of three router based - non CNC - jigs /
tools that will cut end grain mortises - the TREND M&T JIG, the Leigh
FMT jig and the MultiRouter - along with the new Festool DOMINO that's
not router based.

What I hope to do is show, with simple annotated diagrams, the
procedure
for doing end grain mortises with each jig / tool and describe the
strenghths and weaknesses (if any) of the available jigs / tools when
it comes to this specific application.

I know the procedure for cutting mortises in end grain using the TREND
M&T JIG and the Festool DOMINO. I've never used the Leigh FMT jig or
the MultiRouter. I'm working on the Leigh FMT jig first, trying to
under-
stand how it works and the procedure for using it - in real basic steps.

The goal is to provide info that can help other woodworkers, looking
into ways to make loose tenon M&T joinery part of their joints arsenal,
with their purchasing decision. I'll put the stuff up on my woodworking
site after "peer review" is completed and post the URL to it in
rec.woodworking.

I have NO connection or affiliation with any of the jigs /tools makers
or sellers of any of the jigs / tool noted above, and paid the going
price
for the TREND M&T JIG and the DOMINO. - no freebies or discounts
to influence the evaluation. (When I got the DOMINO I gave the TREND
M&T JIG to a woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short on Cash.
If you have a tool or jig that's been replaced by a New AND Improved
one and don't feel like hasseling with selling or swapping it - find a
woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short On Cash and
make his/her day. What YOU get - priceless).

Attached is an illustration of the Leigh FMT procedure as I think it
works.
Need someone who HAS used the FMT - preferably successfully - to look
over the attachment and let me know if I've missed something significant
or got something wrong. Comments can be posted here under this
post's subject line, or to rec.woodworking using this post's subject
line
or e-mailed directly to me (my e-mail address is real, and the only one
I have - no HotMail or Yahoo drop outs).

Thanks for reading all this and hope to thank some of you for
helping out.

charlie b

"Charley" wrote in message

I once watched a demonstration of a JDS Multi-router. It made great
mortices
and tenons, but getting a tighter joint fit required switching to a
slightly
oversized template to cut the matching tenon. They had over and under
sized
templates that they switched to whenever it was needed. This helped get a
better fit, but there were only a few over and under sizes available, so
sometimes the result was either too loose or too tight with no ability for
a
slightly tighter or looser adjustment.

Not exactly ... as with ANY router method/jig, sharpening a bit will change
the size of the routed mortise or tenon, as will using cheaper erratically
manufactured, damaged or excessively worn bits.

With the M-R, as with any router based "jig", template requirements are a
function of bit size.

The M-R has two tenon template sets, the standard set designed to be used
with precisely manufactured bits/endmills, and a master tenon template set
for odd/worn/sharpened bits.

The latter uses graduated "inserts", which allow you vary the size of the
tenon based on erratic bit sizes ... this is what you saw demonstrated.

Simply using the correct size bit, or endmill, precludes that necessity.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Ok, but then how do you adjust for the difference resulting from switching
from hardwood to softwood stock. It results in a change of fit of several
thousandths, changing a good fit to a too snug fit, even when using the same
brand new router bit. This is what I was referring to and I didn't see a way
of adjusting for it. Their templates increment in too large of a step to
account for this, at least in my opinion.

I'm not interested in debating this point. I just commented on what I saw.
My FMT allows for this kind of precise adjustment, without the need to buy
additional templates, and that's all that matters to me. I can get the same
fit with a new bit, or an old bit in hardwood or in softwood with repeatable
accuracy and without buying anything extra to make it work.

--
Charley

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Charley" wrote in message

I once watched a demonstration of a JDS Multi-router. It made great
mortices
and tenons, but getting a tighter joint fit required switching to a
slightly
oversized template to cut the matching tenon. They had over and under
sized
templates that they switched to whenever it was needed. This helped get
a
better fit, but there were only a few over and under sizes available, so
sometimes the result was either too loose or too tight with no ability
for
a
slightly tighter or looser adjustment.

Not exactly ... as with ANY router method/jig, sharpening a bit will
change
the size of the routed mortise or tenon, as will using cheaper erratically
manufactured, damaged or excessively worn bits.

With the M-R, as with any router based "jig", template requirements are a
function of bit size.

The M-R has two tenon template sets, the standard set designed to be used
with precisely manufactured bits/endmills, and a master tenon template set
for odd/worn/sharpened bits.

The latter uses graduated "inserts", which allow you vary the size of the
tenon based on erratic bit sizes ... this is what you saw demonstrated.

Simply using the correct size bit, or endmill, precludes that necessity.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Charley" wrote in message

I'm not interested in debating this point.

There is nothing to "debate" ... simply pointing out the facts of an
experienced M_R user, as you did with the FMT.

I just commented on what I saw.
My FMT allows for this kind of precise adjustment, without the need to buy
additional templates, and that's all that matters to me. I can get the
same
fit with a new bit, or an old bit in hardwood or in softwood with
repeatable
accuracy and without buying anything extra to make it work.

So can I, with the M-R ... but then I have more experience with it than just
seeing it demo'ed, just as you have more experience with the FMT ... even
though I have also seen it demo'ed.



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Charley's observations about the TREND M&T JIG, and by extension
the Leigh FMT as well as the MultiRouter, and the difficulty in
doing
tenons where they're supposed to be - and the size you want for
the fit you're after - begs the question

WHY NOT GO WITH LOOSE TENON M&T JOINTS?

One router bit - and if it's +/- 0.005" - so what. The holes will be
the
same - and that's what's important. If you've got a planer - and bench
top planers that'll do the job, are available for $300 or less - mill
stock
to the bit diameter - whatever it is - and rip loose tenon stock to
width.
A pass or two with a block plane or even a sanding block on all for
edges
to chamfer them and you're ready to cut what ever length loose tenon
you need.. No worries about tenon shoulders either. AND you can make
the loose tenons in any wood you've got handy - or in the same wood
- or in a contrasting wood - if you want.

Of course, with any of the "router jigs"
a) you've got a dedicated router for it (OK - scratch that for the
TREND - but I think it's been ruled out - for tenon cutting
problems.
b) you've got to mark at least one mortise centerline-centerline
for each type of part in order to align the jig to it - and that's
if the mortise is layed out symetrically on two axis
or
if the mortise is offset from the centerline of the part's
thickness - then you have to mark the centerline-centerline
of BOTH ENDS of each type of part in order to align the jig
to it.

The more I reflect on the various ways to do loose tenon M&T
joints - the more I appreciate the DOMINO. I can plan what I
want to do - numerically - then - with NO LAYOUT - cut my mortises
where I want - with relatively (to the Leigh and MultiRouter) no
set up time.

Other than for the sheer fun of it, or for aesthetic reasons I
don't understand, I can't think of a reason for doing "real"
tenons - and I enjoy handcutting dovetails. Tenons - they aren't
even fun to do.

charlie b

charlieb wrote:
Other than for the sheer fun of it, or for aesthetic reasons I
don't understand, I can't think of a reason for doing "real"
tenons - and I enjoy handcutting dovetails. Tenons - they aren't
even fun to do.

Speak for yourself buddy! :-) I personally love cutting mortise and
tenon joints by hand. Of course, if I was going to quit my day job and
go into woodworking full time, I'd probably change my tune... :-)

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.

charlieb,

I agree with your attached comparison except for one point in the last part
of it and another point that you seem to have totally ignored.

I find that cutting both mortices AND MATCHING TENONS on the FMT to be both
fun and enjoyable. Maybe it's because I own an FMT, or maybe it's because
it's just so incredibly neat that I can make perfect mortices and then
perfect matching tenons with just one setup and one router bit. In other
words, I'm happy with my toy and I don't want your's. If your toy works good
for you, then there's nothing more to say.

Floating tenons are good joinery and relatively easy to do. In fact, that's
what I did for years before I got the FMT. I had built a great morticing
fixture out of wood for use with my router that let me put mortices almost
anywhere and almost any size. I made floating tenon stock with square edges
on my table saw and used them in the rounded mortices made with the router
because I found that the sides of the mortice/tenon joint were where the
real joint strength was. I let the open curved ends of the mortice become a
reservoir for the excess glue and I never had a joint failure using this
method of joinery. However, the setup took quite a bit longer than with the
FMT, and I couldn't get the precise fit that I wanted without custom making
my tenon stock. I justified the purchase of the FMT based on the overall
reduction of setup time and it's ability to make perfect fitting mortice and
tenon joints.

I have one question for you. Can you adjust the precise size of the Domino's
mortice or the tenon to make the fit between them a bit tighter? As I see
it, there is no capability in it's design to allow for this. This capability
is one of the main reasons that I bought the FMT, and I so far haven't seen
anything else on the market that can do this. As I see it, a Domino cuts one
size (thickness) mortice and the tenons that they provide are supposed to
fit properly into it, but there is no way to make any adjustment in their
tightness of fit. The glue just has to fill the void. This is one of the
problems that I had with every other jig that I tried before finding the
FMT, which does have a built-in dial to allow you to adjust for a precise
tightness of joint fit. Now I can make press fit M&T joints if I want to, or
I can set them for about .002" clearance to allow for a perfect glue joint.

Please, "I'm not trying to say that my way is better". It's just better for
me.

It's just the way that I found to make M&T joints that works great for me,
and I switched to it over 2 years before the Domino became available. If I
was making the same decision today I might be more interested in the Domino,
but I made my decision over 2 years ago and I'm still very happy with it. I
can't see that the Domino will do anything significantly better than what I
have now. In fact as I see it, it isn't as precise as the FMT, but it may be
a bit faster to set up.

You wanted comparison information from someone who owned an FMT and had
looked into a Multi-router and a Trend M&T jig and I tried to help you.
That's all. In fact, I'm now wondering why you are still comparing them,
after you have already made your big decision and bought the Domino. It's
almost like you aren't really sure that you made the right decision when you
bought it. Have you?

--
Charley


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Charley's observations about the TREND M&T JIG, and by extension
the Leigh FMT as well as the MultiRouter, and the difficulty in
doing
tenons where they're supposed to be - and the size you want for
the fit you're after - begs the question

WHY NOT GO WITH LOOSE TENON M&T JOINTS?

One router bit - and if it's +/- 0.005" - so what. The holes will be
the
same - and that's what's important. If you've got a planer - and bench
top planers that'll do the job, are available for $300 or less - mill
stock
to the bit diameter - whatever it is - and rip loose tenon stock to
width.
A pass or two with a block plane or even a sanding block on all for
edges
to chamfer them and you're ready to cut what ever length loose tenon
you need.. No worries about tenon shoulders either. AND you can make
the loose tenons in any wood you've got handy - or in the same wood
- or in a contrasting wood - if you want.

Of course, with any of the "router jigs"
a) you've got a dedicated router for it (OK - scratch that for the
TREND - but I think it's been ruled out - for tenon cutting
problems.
b) you've got to mark at least one mortise centerline-centerline
for each type of part in order to align the jig to it - and that's
if the mortise is layed out symetrically on two axis
or
if the mortise is offset from the centerline of the part's
thickness - then you have to mark the centerline-centerline
of BOTH ENDS of each type of part in order to align the jig
to it.

The more I reflect on the various ways to do loose tenon M&T
joints - the more I appreciate the DOMINO. I can plan what I
want to do - numerically - then - with NO LAYOUT - cut my mortises
where I want - with relatively (to the Leigh and MultiRouter) no
set up time.

Other than for the sheer fun of it, or for aesthetic reasons I
don't understand, I can't think of a reason for doing "real"
tenons - and I enjoy handcutting dovetails. Tenons - they aren't
even fun to do.

charlie b

"Charley" wrote in message

You wanted comparison information from someone who owned an FMT and had
looked into a Multi-router and a Trend M&T jig and I tried to help you.
That's all. In fact, I'm now wondering why you are still comparing them,
after you have already made your big decision and bought the Domino. It's
almost like you aren't really sure that you made the right decision when
you
bought it. Have you?

It certainly appears to me that there is no doubt in his mind that what
works for him is the Domino.

I've been following Charlie's ruminations on this particular issue since,
IIRC, around 2003, which is about the time I started also looking for ways
to do "production runs" of compound angled joinery.

I looked hard at the FMT, was impressed with its precision, but was turned
off by the width limitation and the hassle of doing joinery in long
workpieces.

Sounds like Charlie made the right choice for him (and has done a hell of a
job giving providing EXCELLENT information for comparison purposes), the FMT
suits you, and I wouldn't trade my M-R for either ... exactly the way it's
supposed to work, eh?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman,

Yup. We buy what we think will do the best job for us, and it may not be
what someone else thinks will do best for him. Charlieb just seems to be
still trying to convince himself that he made the right choice, even after
spending the money for it. I think he made a good choice and it will serve
him well. He just needs get on with making sawdust and stop torturing
himself over whether he made a good decision or not. That's why there are so
many different tools on the market that do the same or similar jobs, and
those companies all seem to be making money. To each his own I guess.

I spent several years dreaming about a MultiRouter but could never quite
justify the cost. I've watched several live demos of it and it would sure
make M&T production easy, although, in my opinion, it isn't quite as precise
as what I was looking for. The FMT is great for repeatable very close
tolerance joints and a little slower when it comes to setup and production
runs. Although I have only seen video demonstrations of the Domino, I think
it may be faster than the FMT and the MultiRouter, but we've already made
our choices, haven't we.

Do you really need M&T joints that are bigger than 1/2 x 5" ? (the limit for
FMT) What do you make that requires larger joints than this? I've found
that I get serious cross grain gluing problems when I try make larger M&T
joints. Most of what I make is furniture related and the FMT does all that
I've needed to do so far (but I didn't throw out my old wooden morticing jig
yet-just in case). I've also used my FMT for some production runs of
plantation and exterior shutters, where it performed really well.

I have only had to cut tenons on the ends of a couple of excessively long
pieces with the FMT. For these few long pieces I needed to put tenons on
their ends, and I solved the problem by mounting the FMT to a deck railing,
letting the board hang off the edge of the deck, and I stood on the deck
behind the FMT while making the cuts. It worked out quite well.

--
Charley


"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Charley" wrote in message

You wanted comparison information from someone who owned an FMT and had
looked into a Multi-router and a Trend M&T jig and I tried to help you.
That's all. In fact, I'm now wondering why you are still comparing them,
after you have already made your big decision and bought the Domino.
It's
almost like you aren't really sure that you made the right decision when
you
bought it. Have you?

It certainly appears to me that there is no doubt in his mind that what
works for him is the Domino.

I've been following Charlie's ruminations on this particular issue since,
IIRC, around 2003, which is about the time I started also looking for ways
to do "production runs" of compound angled joinery.

I looked hard at the FMT, was impressed with its precision, but was turned
off by the width limitation and the hassle of doing joinery in long
workpieces.

Sounds like Charlie made the right choice for him (and has done a hell of
a
job giving providing EXCELLENT information for comparison purposes), the
FMT
suits you, and I wouldn't trade my M-R for either ... exactly the way it's
supposed to work, eh?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Charley wrote:

Yup. We buy what we think will do the best job for us, and it may not be
what someone else thinks will do best for him. Charlieb just seems to be
still trying to convince himself that he made the right choice, even after
spending the money for it. I think he made a good choice and it will serve
him well. He just needs get on with making sawdust and stop torturing
himself over whether he made a good decision or not.

I've had no second thoughts or "buyers remorse" about getting the
DOMINO. For most furniture applications it has more capabilities
than
I will probably never need - but I like to have options, even if I
never
use them. And sometimes having the option of doing something gets
me to do something I wouldn't have tried before - or even considered.
THAT's what I'm trying to convey. This thing is a solution looking
for
problems to solve.

Case in point:

I want to build something to hide the garbage can and recycling
containers I walk by several times a day going to and from the
shop. I COULD use redwood 4x4s with 2x4 stringers nailed
to them - and nail up some fence boards to the2x4s. And I could
make a gate with a 2x4 frame and nail up more fence boards.

BUT - nails are ugly - and they rust and streak the wood. Redwood
ages to a pleasant silver gray, It's pretty stuff.

SO - I'm gonna put it all together with loose tenons. The 2x4
stringers will go in 4" showing rather than the 2" - less flexing
and instead of nailing the fence boards I'll loose tenon them
between the stringers, leaving some slop in the mortises on the
ends of the fence board to allow for expansion/contraction since
it won't be protected from the elements. The gate will be done
the same way. The center board of each span will have one
tenon glued on each end to tie things together mid span.

This liitle project will involve joining 4x4s to 2x4s and 3/4" x 8"
x6'
fence boards to 2x4s - 64 loose tenons in two different sizes
and that's 128 mortises - also in two different sizes AND three
different offsets form a reference plane. Oh - and with two
two tenons per fence board end 52 end grain mortises in SIX
foot long boards (wouldn't even consider doing this without
the DOMINO)

Now THAT seems a bit nuts - it's a fence for heaven's sake.
It'll take days to layout all the mortises and cut them right?

WRONG!

Layout lines? I don't need no steenkin' layout out lines!

Set ups? I need just three - and I can do each set up in
maybe a minute - two max.

What about clamping and unclamping time? Don't need to.

I spent maybe an hour last night prototyping things - AND
writing down the settings for what I was doing. Now I've
got the settings that do what I want to do - and have them
written down on a sketch of the project. If it takes much over
an hour and a half to cut ALL of the mortises I'll be surprised.

I don't know if you were around when the HP came out with
the firts progammable pocket calculator - but it was described
as A Solution Looking For Problems To Solve. I paid over $400
for one shortly after they came out - and THAT's in '70s dollars.
Never regretted that purchase. That little sucker saved me
a hellacious amount of mind numbing grunt work.

And the first time I saw an Apple Mac computer - that you could
draw with - albeit like trying to draw with a pencil stuck in a
potato - I bought me one - again the chunk of change it took
was worth it because it allowed me to do things I was doing
with pencil, paper and a calculator so much faster and easier.
Being able to do artwork and drawings on it was a bonus I'm
still enjoying - three versions of the Mac later - and now I
can make the damned thing do things I wouldn't have even
thought of without it.

The DOMINO is a lever - allowing me to do things I couldn't
or wouldn't without it. Is it THE Silver Bullet - that will
do every conceivable type of mortise and tenon joint?
No - but for furniture work - and even crazy fence projects?
YUP.

That's why there are so
many different tools on the market that do the same or similar jobs, and
those companies all seem to be making money. To each his own I guess.

And ain't it nice to have all those options!

I spent several years dreaming about a MultiRouter but could never quite
justify the cost. I've watched several live demos of it and it would sure
make M&T production easy, although, in my opinion, it isn't quite as precise
as what I was looking for. The FMT is great for repeatable very close
tolerance joints and a little slower when it comes to setup and production
runs.

How precise do you need to be? It is wood we're playing with right?
And it is following a template so the mortise sizes are limited to
the templates available right. And router bits have a depth of cut
limit right?

So you have to adapt to the tools "presets" - mortise length, width
and the bit's depth of cut. What you can control is WHERE the
mortise is cut. And THAT is what you don't get "out of the box"
with the DOMINO. The retractable "stop pins" are preset to center
the mortise 37mm from the mortise side of the pin - referencing
off either pin (left/right). Once you have a mortise cut in a part
you can use either end of that mortise to reference the next
mortise. You CAN align the tool to a layout line - but that's a
hassle and takes time. You can make a bench hook with changeable
spacers to do the first mortise any distance you want from an
edge or end - and I have done just that - using the DOMINO to
provide the interchangeability.

It's a modified version of Form Follows Function - Joinery Selection
Follows The Available Tools To Make Them With.

Although I have only seen video demonstrations of the Domino, I think
it may be faster than the FMT and the MultiRouter, but we've already made
our choices, haven't we.

Don't "think" it's faster - it absolutely is faster. Think biscuit
joiner
speed. We're not talkin' twice as fast - but rather 6 to better than
10 times faster - with repeatable accuracy. Think in terms of what
the hand held router did for woodworking. OK so the router can do
a lot more and different types of things - but the DOMINO concept
is in that league - a completely different way of doing things.

Do you really need M&T joints that are bigger than 1/2 x 5" ? (the limit for
FMT)

Are you putting a router bit in a plunge router that is long enough
to cut a mortise 1/2" wide and 5 inches deep - and spin it at a
minimum of 10,000 rpms? I'm guessing you mean a bit that'll
cut 2 1/2" deep and you cut from both sides of the part.

What do you make that requires larger joints than this?

Though not 5" deep, I have done a door that required pairs of
1" thick by 2 1/2" deep mortises.

I've found
that I get serious cross grain gluing problems when I try make larger M&T
joints.

Which is why, at some some point you split up the single tenon
into narrower multiple tenons.

Most of what I make is furniture related and the FMT does all that
I've needed to do so far (but I didn't throw out my old wooden morticing jig
yet-just in case). I've also used my FMT for some production runs of
plantation and exterior shutters, where it performed really well.

AH - another problem the DOMINO can solve. WHAT IF - you could
cut the mortises as quickly as cutting a biscuit slot? You see, the
DOMINO mortise length is a function of one of three "presets" PLUS
the diameter of the bit being used.

Let's say your slats - or whatever they're called - are 6mm thick for
this example. The mortise width DOMINO "presets" would quickly cut
19mm (0.748") OR 25mm (0.984") or 29mm (1.142") mortises
at any of the following depths - 12, 15, 20, 25 and 28mm - you'll
have to do the math - 25.4mm/inch). Mill your "slats" to whatever
"snuggness you want - and skip tenoning them completely. Want
to angle them - shim one side of the DOMINO's "foot". Want them
to overlap? Change where the DOMINO will cut the mortise by
adjusting
the fence to mortise center line distance - using either the "presets
8mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12.5mm, 14mm or 20mm OR anywhere between
8 and 30mm if you're good at setting an arrow to a scale with lines
at 1mm increments.

This thing changes how you think about doing mortises. You don't
"Need" ANY layout lines - the reference face and reference end of
the part are what this thing is working from - AND - because the
retractable "stop pins" are symetric - 37mm to the mortise's
centerline - no matter how thick or how wide the mortise is -
you can work off EITHER end of the part to be mortised. If the
parts have the same length width and thickness you get the
mortise where it's supposed to go - on both ends if you're doing
end grain - like on a table apron.

I know this is getting a bit Evangelical - but I just don't seem to
be able to convey what this thing can do - or how easy it makes
it to do it. One Ofs or small productions pieces - this thing is
revolutionary - and - it's a single, handheld power tool - with a
slick case - that stacks on, and can be locked to, any other
Festool case - which they call a Systainer. Their loose tenons
- well at the moment their more expensive than biscuits - but
if money gets short I'll make my own version - I've got a router
table, planer and table saw.

I have only had to cut tenons on the ends of a couple of excessively long
pieces with the FMT. For these few long pieces I needed to put tenons on
their ends, and I solved the problem by mounting the FMT to a deck railing,
letting the board hang off the edge of the deck, and I stood on the deck
behind the FMT while making the cuts. It worked out quite well.

If I tried that I'd drop a board, trip on the stairs on the way down
to
get it, fall on the damned dog who'd bite me, throw out my back while
bending over and twisting to lift the board - AND get hit on the head
when the FMT jig fell off the deck rail - with a little assistance of
a
****ed off dog. But hey - sometimes - not often - things go "just
so". Did I mention that the folks in the Emergency Room know me
well enough to know my dog's name - and I don't get a bill mailed
to me. They just "put it on my tab" and will get their money the
next time I "stop by" - usually sooner than their "60 days overdue"
letters go out.

(I'm not really a klutz - but I like spinning a tale that might cause
a grin or two.)

The pity of it all is that the guys doing the demonstrations for
the DOMINO haven't really used the thing for a project. "See
it cuts a mortise just like this! Quick and easy. Now how many
would you like?" It looks like a biscuit joiner and that's the
impression they give the onlooker.

I'm doing a demonstration of the DOMINO for a woodworking
group this evening. I've got some handouts and some examples
of some of the things this thing will do. I'll cut some mortises
and have somebody from the group do a table with apron just
so they get an idea of the speed this thing does what it does.
But what I really hope to do is give them a good idea of what
does what and how all that can be applied.

Fun this woodworking thing.

charlie b

"Charley" wrote in message

Do you really need M&T joints that are bigger than 1/2 x 5" ? (the limit
for
FMT) What do you make that requires larger joints than this?

Granted, not often, but I've made a couple of "gates" (actually, more "door
like" than gates) that I don't think the FMT could have handled, and not the
Domino because of its tenon length limit (I didn't have the M-R then and did
it by hand, bandsaw, and hollow chisel mortiser, which I still keep, like
you, just in case).

The M-R would definitely handle that particular task, should it come up
again.

.... and, in all fairness, perhaps the FMT, if I knew more about it than what
I've simply read and seen demonstrated.

I've found
that I get serious cross grain gluing problems when I try make larger M&T
joints. Most of what I make is furniture related and the FMT does all that
I've needed to do so far (but I didn't throw out my old wooden morticing
jig
yet-just in case). I've also used my FMT for some production runs of
plantation and exterior shutters, where it performed really well.

I have only had to cut tenons on the ends of a couple of excessively long
pieces with the FMT. For these few long pieces I needed to put tenons on
their ends, and I solved the problem by mounting the FMT to a deck
railing,
letting the board hang off the edge of the deck, and I stood on the deck
behind the FMT while making the cuts. It worked out quite well.

Yep ... BTDT, sort of. Hung the Leigh D4 off an attic joist in the shop, and
stood on a stool, on top of the workbench, to cut dovetails. SWMBO is still
chucking at that picture.

Not to disparage the tool, but what turned me off the FMT is not really a
fair basement of the quality, convenience and precision of the jig, but the
fact that I just got soured on having to constantly rely on messing with a
handheld plunge router to do these tasks.

While the M-R indeed relies on a fixed base router, once equipped, it is
certainly more of a "milling machine" than a jig that uses a handheld plunge
router.

Many would say that is a personal problem ... and I would agree.

In any event, I appreciate both yours and Charlie's comparison of the pro's
and con's of all three tools. Let's hope that is the kind of stuff that
folks will find useful in deciding on what best suits them when they're
shopping around.

Enjoyed the discussion ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Thanks for your input Swingman. Your input was much appreciated as well.

When I referred to the FMT joint capacity I meant to say that it's 1/2 X 5"
(X and Y dimensions) by the length of the router bit flutes (which cuts the
mortice depth and the tenon length - Z dimension). The 1/2" dimension comes
from the largest upcut spiral router bit diameter that both the FMT and the
router can handle, and the 5" is the limit of router travel due to the size
of the opening in the top plate of the FMT. You can actually make wider than
1/2" mortices and tenons on it, but it requires some real tricks and
gimickery that results in some slight loss of precision. If I ever needed to
do this I think I would rather resort to cutting several M&T joints in close
clusters. The FMT can do up to 4 joints in a cluster with precision spacing
between them, if they don't exceed a roughly 3" X 5" footprint (the XY
positioning limits of the top plate.

--
Charley


"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Charley" wrote in message

Do you really need M&T joints that are bigger than 1/2 x 5" ? (the limit
for
FMT) What do you make that requires larger joints than this?

Granted, not often, but I've made a couple of "gates" (actually, more
"door
like" than gates) that I don't think the FMT could have handled, and not
the
Domino because of its tenon length limit (I didn't have the M-R then and
did
it by hand, bandsaw, and hollow chisel mortiser, which I still keep, like
you, just in case).

The M-R would definitely handle that particular task, should it come up
again.

... and, in all fairness, perhaps the FMT, if I knew more about it than
what
I've simply read and seen demonstrated.

I've found
that I get serious cross grain gluing problems when I try make larger
M&T
joints. Most of what I make is furniture related and the FMT does all
that
I've needed to do so far (but I didn't throw out my old wooden morticing
jig
yet-just in case). I've also used my FMT for some production runs of
plantation and exterior shutters, where it performed really well.

I have only had to cut tenons on the ends of a couple of excessively
long
pieces with the FMT. For these few long pieces I needed to put tenons on
their ends, and I solved the problem by mounting the FMT to a deck
railing,
letting the board hang off the edge of the deck, and I stood on the deck
behind the FMT while making the cuts. It worked out quite well.

Yep ... BTDT, sort of. Hung the Leigh D4 off an attic joist in the shop,
and
stood on a stool, on top of the workbench, to cut dovetails. SWMBO is
still
chucking at that picture.

Not to disparage the tool, but what turned me off the FMT is not really a
fair basement of the quality, convenience and precision of the jig, but
the
fact that I just got soured on having to constantly rely on messing with a
handheld plunge router to do these tasks.

While the M-R indeed relies on a fixed base router, once equipped, it is
certainly more of a "milling machine" than a jig that uses a handheld
plunge
router.

Many would say that is a personal problem ... and I would agree.

In any event, I appreciate both yours and Charlie's comparison of the
pro's
and con's of all three tools. Let's hope that is the kind of stuff that
folks will find useful in deciding on what best suits them when they're
shopping around.

Enjoyed the discussion ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Charley wrote:

Thanks for your input Swingman. Your input was much appreciated as well.

When I referred to the FMT joint capacity I meant to say that it's 1/2 X 5"
(X and Y dimensions) by the length of the router bit flutes (which cuts the
mortice depth and the tenon length - Z dimension). The 1/2" dimension comes
from the largest upcut spiral router bit diameter that both the FMT and the
router can handle, and the 5" is the limit of router travel due to the size
of the opening in the top plate of the FMT.

So the tenoning part of the FMT process only goes up to 1/2"
diameter
spiral router bits? AH - but if you go with loose tenon - you CAN
do 5/8
or 3/4 inch mortise thicknesses.

You can actually make wider than
1/2" mortices and tenons on it, but it requires some real tricks and
gimickery that results in some slight loss of precision. If I ever needed to
do this I think I would rather resort to cutting several M&T joints in close
clusters. The FMT can do up to 4 joints in a cluster with precision spacing
between them, if they don't exceed a roughly 3" X 5" footprint (the XY
positioning limits of the top plate.

Because most mortise and tenon joints a connecting grain at right
angles
to each other - expansion and contraction starts working against you
as the width - long axis - of the tenon goes up. At some point, it's
better
to split up one BIG tenon into two or more smaller ones - with some
meat
left between them.

Given that the DOMINO's fence gives you a range from about 8mm to
30mm
to the center of your mortise (0.315 to 1,181") and almost any length
you want up to 205mm ( a bit over 8") in 1mm discrete increments
between
100 and 205mm from the mortise's centerline.

Leigh FMT, MultiRouter, Chisel & Bit, DOMINO - nice to have options

charlie b