"Dr. Know" wrote:
I am totally new to both wood turning and this forum. However, I see
a number of familiar "faces" from the wreck.
Anyhow, I want to practice making small segmented and open segmented
turnings. Tweaking the jigs and such as I go.
Is it possible to use cheap materials like southern yellow pine for
practice before moving on to ruin more expensive woods?

Hi. If you're "totally new to wood turning", you're putting the
horse before the horse. Start out with spindle work and learn the
use and feelof your turning tools. Go from that to simple
faceplate work and then to deeper bowls and hollow forms. When
you've got that under your belt, try the segmenented bowls. If
you haven't gotten any of the basic books on turning, do that to
help you get a leg up. Better yet, find someone local and have
them help you learn.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

dave in Fairfax said:

"Dr. Know" wrote:
I am totally new to both wood turning and this forum. However, I see
a number of familiar "faces" from the wreck.
Anyhow, I want to practice making small segmented and open segmented
turnings. Tweaking the jigs and such as I go.
Is it possible to use cheap materials like southern yellow pine for
practice before moving on to ruin more expensive woods?

Hi. If you're "totally new to wood turning", you're putting the
horse before the horse. Start out with spindle work and learn the
use and feelof your turning tools. Go from that to simple
faceplate work and then to deeper bowls and hollow forms. When
you've got that under your belt, try the segmenented bowls. If
you haven't gotten any of the basic books on turning, do that to
help you get a leg up. Better yet, find someone local and have
them help you learn.

Well, "totally" may have been inaccurate. I have done spindles, pens,
and small bowls. But by the same token, I approach everything this
way - Jump in with both feet running.

You're right about the books! However, I've read much of the last 6
months of this group and numerous websites. A small lathe and turning
tools (which cost twice as much), and holidays approaching doesn't
leave much room for extra expendatures - yet. Time for another
disapointing trip to the local library - so I can look at 10,000 tomes
on personal improvement, weight loss, and make-up application - only
to go home and buy something off Amazon :-\

Thanks,


Greg G.

Greg, G. wrote:
Well, "totally" may have been inaccurate. I have done spindles, pens,
and small bowls. But by the same token, I approach everything this
way - Jump in with both feet running.

Then I guess the answer is yes SYP can be used, but you've got to
have SHARP tools. Hardwoods air-dried, cut easiest after wet
wood. Then kiln-dried hardwoods. Softwoods require very sharp
tools. All this in general, some rules to be broken, but good
enough for a thumbnail sketch. Free, wet wood cuts easiest,
remember the anchorseal.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

In article , wrote:


Anyhow, I want to practice making small segmented and open segmented
turnings. Tweaking the jigs and such as I go.

Is it possible to use cheap materials like southern yellow pine for
practice before moving on to ruin more expensive woods?

I don't know why you can't use whatever you have on hand for setting up
and tweaking your jigs. The jigs are for getting the correct angles so there
is no need to actually turn the ring. Once you are satisfied with the jig then
switch to an inexpensive hardwood to get some practice gluing up the actual
pieces.

Good luck.

Stuart Johnson
Red Oak, Texas

Stuart Johnson said:

In article , wrote:


Anyhow, I want to practice making small segmented and open segmented
turnings. Tweaking the jigs and such as I go.

Is it possible to use cheap materials like southern yellow pine for
practice before moving on to ruin more expensive woods?

I don't know why you can't use whatever you have on hand for setting up
and tweaking your jigs. The jigs are for getting the correct angles so there
is no need to actually turn the ring. Once you are satisfied with the jig then
switch to an inexpensive hardwood to get some practice gluing up the actual
pieces.

No reason for the jigs, but I want to practice *turning* the end
result as well. I am assuming that segmented bowls - or worse, an
open segmented bowl - may place varying (even impact) loads on the
tool, and that a technique has to be developed to compensate for
varying wood grain, hardness, and the transition from wood to air.

Of course, I could be assuming incorrectly... ;-)


Greg G.

dave in Fairfax said:

Greg, G. wrote:
Well, "totally" may have been inaccurate. I have done spindles, pens,
and small bowls. But by the same token, I approach everything this
way - Jump in with both feet running.

Then I guess the answer is yes SYP can be used, but you've got to
have SHARP tools. Hardwoods air-dried, cut easiest after wet
wood. Then kiln-dried hardwoods. Softwoods require very sharp
tools. All this in general, some rules to be broken, but good
enough for a thumbnail sketch. Free, wet wood cuts easiest,
remember the anchorseal.

OK - that makes sense. I know the grain variation from soft to hard
resinous wood makes pine somewhat difficult to deal with.

As for the end-grain sealer - I started collecting some wood a few
weeks ago, and have been using paraffin mixed with mineral spirits - I
had it on hand. Used it on magnolia, cherry and pin oak. Seemed to
stop the severe checking in the cherry...

I have also seen numerous mentions of LDD - what is that?

Thanks,

Greg G.

Greg wrote:

No reason for the jigs, but I want to practice *turning* the end
result as well. I am assuming that segmented bowls - or worse, an
open segmented bowl - may place varying (even impact) loads on the
tool, and that a technique has to be developed to compensate for
varying wood grain, hardness, and the transition from wood to air.

When your wood is spinning at hundreds of RPM's, it's going too fast for
you to think about "the transition from wood to air"--for God sakes,
don't be so cerebral about it! :-)
Sure, the tool technique is just slightly different for interupted cuts
compared to solid wood. You are still rubbing the bevel as recommended
by all the books, videos, and websites on gouge technique, but with some
restraint on advancing the tool into the cut. If your speed is high
enough, and tool is very sharp with an appropriate grind, it will be a
piece of cake with the biggest difference from turning solid wood being
the sound of the cut.

Also, when starting out with segmented turning using different woods, it
helps to use only woods with similar working characteristics. Walnut and
cherry are perfect matches not only because of the color differences and
similar hardness, but they have very close rates of
expansion/contraction during seasonal changes in humidity so are not
likely to delaminate over time.

Ken Grunke
http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/





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Gotta disagree with Ken a touch. High speed is not a requirement, and in my
opinion, not even desirable. It doesn't improve your edge, and the
increased kinetic energy may help the wood flex away from an improperly
placed gouge, starting a chatter pattern. You position your tool _firmly_
on a close toolrest, set the heel so it touches the wood as it comes round,
then move the handle until the edge enters the wood before advancing in the
direction of cut. As you become more familiar with the cutting angle for
your gouge of preference, you'll be able to start the nose directly. To
visualize, rotate the piece by hand and take a few shavings to see what's
working.

Oh yes, rubbing the bevel doesn't mean at right angles to it. That's
chopping. Rubbing parallel to the point of contact gives you your best
shaving, one with a clean exit. Depending on your gouge choice you may
strive for a continuous twisted shaving, produced when you're shearing,
versus dust and shave when you're chopping. Let the rotating wood do the
work by coming to your edge, don't push the tool.

"Ken G." wrote in message
...
Greg wrote:

No reason for the jigs, but I want to practice *turning* the end
result as well. I am assuming that segmented bowls - or worse, an
open segmented bowl - may place varying (even impact) loads on the
tool, and that a technique has to be developed to compensate for
varying wood grain, hardness, and the transition from wood to air.

When your wood is spinning at hundreds of RPM's, it's going too fast for
you to think about "the transition from wood to air"--for God sakes,
don't be so cerebral about it! :-)
Sure, the tool technique is just slightly different for interupted cuts
compared to solid wood. You are still rubbing the bevel as recommended
by all the books, videos, and websites on gouge technique, but with some
restraint on advancing the tool into the cut. If your speed is high
enough, and tool is very sharp with an appropriate grind, it will be a
piece of cake with the biggest difference from turning solid wood being
the sound of the cut.

George said:

Gotta disagree with Ken a touch. High speed is not a requirement, and in my
opinion, not even desirable. It doesn't improve your edge, and the
increased kinetic energy may help the wood flex away from an improperly
placed gouge, starting a chatter pattern. You position your tool _firmly_
on a close toolrest, set the heel so it touches the wood as it comes round,
then move the handle until the edge enters the wood before advancing in the
direction of cut. As you become more familiar with the cutting angle for
your gouge of preference, you'll be able to start the nose directly. To
visualize, rotate the piece by hand and take a few shavings to see what's
working.

I've tried higher speeds, and I don't see any reason you would ever
use them - other than for buffing or sanding. This thing goes up to
3900 RPM. I've used the bottom two speeds. The first thing I created
was a miniature column - a doll house sized replica of the columns
holding our porch up. And as the speed increased, so did the whipping
of the part. It also seems to aggravate the consequences of a
misplaced cut. And for roughing out 8" tree blanks, even the slowest
speed of 500 RPM seems none too slow...

Oh yes, rubbing the bevel doesn't mean at right angles to it. That's
chopping. Rubbing parallel to the point of contact gives you your best
shaving, one with a clean exit. Depending on your gouge choice you may
strive for a continuous twisted shaving, produced when you're shearing,
versus dust and shave when you're chopping. Let the rotating wood do the
work by coming to your edge, don't push the tool.

Having a new toy sitting in the garage pretty much precluded reading
anything on the subject, I'm one of those stubborn, diehard, figure it
out the hard way kinda people. ;-) So I pretty much discovered the
tool angle deal on my own. On the first turning I played with each
tool and experimented with it's behavior. It brought a smile to my
face when the scrapings turned to ribbons of wood shooting out like a
fountain - "Hey, this is pretty neat." Pressure on the tool is
*definitely* not needed - and would probably result in gouging, hangs,
tool breakage and at minimum, bending of thin work pieces.

After the column experiment, I moved on to a lidded vessel turned from
a green cherry limb. As it was kind of intuitive what each tool was
designed to accomplish, I practiced leveling, beading, parting,
rounding, etc. It turned out pretty well and I plan to post a pix to
a.b.p.w. later today - look for it!

I am amazed at the power and heart the little Jet mini lathe
exhibited. With this huge misshapen limb spinning precariously in
it's jaws, I have yet to have the lathe even hint at slowing or
stalling.

My last observation is this - What A Mess! There are ribbons of wood
under, around and on top of everything within 10 feet! I would be
most interested in other's ideas of dust/ribbon control! I have a DC
for the all the flat woodworking tools, but there is not dust port on
the lathe. ;-) I had to keep brushing piles of wood from under the
lathe bed, for fear they would choke off the cooling air to the motor!

Now that I have some experience with these things, I can read up on
the subject and better understand what the writer is explaining.

Thanks for the information!


Greg G.

Ken G. said:

When your wood is spinning at hundreds of RPM's, it's going too fast for
you to think about "the transition from wood to air"--for God sakes,
don't be so cerebral about it! :-)

It's just my nature, I'm afraid. Having an electronics and computer
programming background, I plan everything and worry over every nuance
of every possible complication. :-\

Sure, the tool technique is just slightly different for interupted cuts
compared to solid wood. You are still rubbing the bevel as recommended
by all the books, videos, and websites on gouge technique, but with some
restraint on advancing the tool into the cut. If your speed is high
enough, and tool is very sharp with an appropriate grind, it will be a
piece of cake with the biggest difference from turning solid wood being
the sound of the cut.

That's good to know. I'm going to experiment with a few segmented
vessels - possibly next week.

Also, when starting out with segmented turning using different woods, it
helps to use only woods with similar working characteristics. Walnut and
cherry are perfect matches not only because of the color differences and
similar hardness, but they have very close rates of
expansion/contraction during seasonal changes in humidity so are not
likely to delaminate over time.

Thanks for the info! BTW, I looked at your site - nice work! I
especially liked the Spalted Maple lidded box with locking lid. I
aspire to be a purveyor of fine artistic items to family, friends, and
anyone with large amounts of cash... ;-)


Greg G.

OK, now use that analytical expertise and ask if you _want_ the shavings to
fly. If they're flying, Newton says they're running from something. Only
one place for a properly made shaving to go - down the flute of the gouge,
or, if the gouge is cutting almost vertically, to the floor. While hogging
the interior of a bowl they are carried away from you, but even there you
can keep things neat by grabbing and bagging a double handful each time you
move the toolrest.

When you get the twist and drop, three grits of sandpaper will become
superfluous.

Greg G. wrote in message
...
George said:

Oh yes, rubbing the bevel doesn't mean at right angles to it. That's
chopping. Rubbing parallel to the point of contact gives you your best
shaving, one with a clean exit. Depending on your gouge choice you may
strive for a continuous twisted shaving, produced when you're shearing,
versus dust and shave when you're chopping. Let the rotating wood do the
work by coming to your edge, don't push the tool.

Having a new toy sitting in the garage pretty much precluded reading
anything on the subject, I'm one of those stubborn, diehard, figure it
out the hard way kinda people. ;-) So I pretty much discovered the
tool angle deal on my own. On the first turning I played with each
tool and experimented with it's behavior. It brought a smile to my
face when the scrapings turned to ribbons of wood shooting out like a
fountain - "Hey, this is pretty neat." Pressure on the tool is
*definitely* not needed - and would probably result in gouging, hangs,
tool breakage and at minimum, bending of thin work pieces.


My last observation is this - What A Mess! There are ribbons of wood
under, around and on top of everything within 10 feet! I would be
most interested in other's ideas of dust/ribbon control! I have a DC
for the all the flat woodworking tools, but there is not dust port on
the lathe. ;-) I had to keep brushing piles of wood from under the
lathe bed, for fear they would choke off the cooling air to the motor!

George said:

OK, now use that analytical expertise and ask if you _want_ the shavings to
fly. If they're flying, Newton says they're running from something.

Good point! In defense of my ignorance, however, most of the *flying*
was while roughing the blank. There was still bark attached and chips
ended up everywhere. Then while cutting out the sapwood, I noticed
that the stock removal went faster when they "flew" from the tip of
the roughing gouge. During the actual shaping process, they did slide
down the flute and build up on my hand and on the bench below in great
mountains of curly ribbon waste. There was literally three inches of
curls under my feet by the time I finished. All I could think of was,
"what a waste of wood - what can I do with this stuff". Other than a
handful used to burnish the final turning, it all ended up in a bucket
and the shop-vac.

Only
one place for a properly made shaving to go - down the flute of the gouge,
or, if the gouge is cutting almost vertically, to the floor. While hogging
the interior of a bowl they are carried away from you, but even there you
can keep things neat by grabbing and bagging a double handful each time you
move the toolrest.

Didn't have time for such niceties - I just swept them aside onto the
floor! ;-) Maybe next time!

The thing I really had trouble with was keeping waste cleared out of
the interior of the vessel. Being wet, it seemed to want to build up
around the outer edges of the vessel and was hard to brush out. I
could use the tool in a fashion that would sweep most of them out of
the interior, but there were some stubborn bits.

When you get the twist and drop, three grits of sandpaper will become
superfluous.

I didn't use sandpaper. I did run a green 3M sanding pad over the
surface when finished, and then burnished it with some of the turning
waste. But I found that a gentle, controlled application of various
tools resulted in a very nice finish all on it's own.

I mostly need to get more experience and read up on various tip and
techniques.

Thanks again,

Greg G.

No surprises there. Even dry, unless you have an outward taper, the
stuff'll want to stay due to centrifugal forces. One advantage to hollowing
with a pointy gouge is that you already have a path for the shavings - down
the flute. I like to use a pointy gouge for initial space even when I'm
going to transition to the Stewart tool, because it's self-ejecting.

You may find the burnish won't give you all you want. Though you've got wet
fiber, which is easy to compress, it's easily torn away with your wool, so
you may get some artifact as it dries, or as you add a polar solvent like
alcohol. Not to worry, as long as it isn't gross, because it'll sand.

Tips are someone else's mistakes, at best. Urban legend at worst. You're
just going to have to try, and never stop thinking as you weigh options.

Greg G. wrote in message
news

The thing I really had trouble with was keeping waste cleared out of
the interior of the vessel. Being wet, it seemed to want to build up
around the outer edges of the vessel and was hard to brush out. I
could use the tool in a fashion that would sweep most of them out of
the interior, but there were some stubborn bits.

When you get the twist and drop, three grits of sandpaper will become
superfluous.

I didn't use sandpaper. I did run a green 3M sanding pad over the
surface when finished, and then burnished it with some of the turning
waste. But I found that a gentle, controlled application of various
tools resulted in a very nice finish all on it's own.

I mostly need to get more experience and read up on various tip and
techniques.

George said:

No surprises there. Even dry, unless you have an outward taper, the
stuff'll want to stay due to centrifugal forces. One advantage to hollowing
with a pointy gouge is that you already have a path for the shavings - down
the flute. I like to use a pointy gouge for initial space even when I'm
going to transition to the Stewart tool, because it's self-ejecting.

Glad it's not just me having that problem. I'll try that when I *get*
a pointy gouge.

You may find the burnish won't give you all you want. Though you've got wet
fiber, which is easy to compress, it's easily torn away with your wool, so
you may get some artifact as it dries, or as you add a polar solvent like
alcohol. Not to worry, as long as it isn't gross, because it'll sand.

I noticed some of the grain tearing at the pad, so I'm sure that the
reverse happens as well. I also noticed that the time spent smoothing
the piece was basically wasted, as the drying process introduced
artifacts of it's own. It'll need sanding again.

Tips are someone else's mistakes, at best. Urban legend at worst. You're
just going to have to try, and never stop thinking as you weigh options.

I have a tome full of "tips" garnered by making hard-headed mistakes
in my youth. Actually, it's a never ending process. ;-)

Thanks,


Greg G.