Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've
been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as
my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the
direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross
grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all
have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe
that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper
clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many
fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top
and then attached later.
Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with
the top and finial combined?

Kevin said:

Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've
been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as
my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the
direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross
grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all
have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe
that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper
clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many
fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top
and then attached later.
Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with
the top and finial combined?

I can't speak for everyone, and I'm surely no expert, but you can go
either way. Many use a contrasting wood for parts of the finial, so
that pretty much defines the turning and construction techniques.
Tight fitting is problematic for wood as it shrinks and swells with
humidity changes. Without a brass ring insert or similar, they
alternate between binding and somewhat loose over time. Of course,
some woods are better than others in this regard.

Granted, these are not excessively ornate, but...

This is a one tiny piece I turned from reclaimed cherry:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/images/Tu...iVessel01l.jpg

This is a multi part from various woods:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/images/cherry_pwalnut01l.jpg

Generally, the right answer is whatever works for you and achieves the
result you are after.

FWIW,

Greg G.

On Nov 9, 9:40 am, Kevin wrote:
Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've
been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as
my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the
direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross
grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all
have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe
that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper
clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many
fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top
and then attached later.
Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with
the top and finial combined?


Hello Kevin,

Most small boxes are made with the grain parallel to the axis of
rotation on the lathe (or endgrain). One reason for this is that the
wood in this orientation does not change with the weather as much as
in the other orientation. That said, if you put a lid on it, it is a
box.

However, if you seal the wood properly when you finish it, there is
generally less change with the weather, because more moisture can't
get in and any moisture remaining in the box is pretty well retained
there.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Nov 9, 4:46 pm, Fred Holder wrote:
On Nov 9, 9:40 am, Kevin wrote:

Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've
been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as
my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the
direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross
grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all
have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe
that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper
clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many
fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top
and then attached later.
Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with
the top and finial combined?

Hello Kevin,

Most small boxes are made with the grain parallel to the axis of
rotation on the lathe (or endgrain). One reason for this is that the
wood in this orientation does not change with the weather as much as
in the other orientation. That said, if you put a lid on it, it is a
box.

However, if you seal the wood properly when you finish it, there is
generally less change with the weather, because more moisture can't
get in and any moisture remaining in the box is pretty well retained
there.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net


Sorry Kevin,

I forgot to answer your question about finials. On side grain boxes
like you are making, it is always necessary to put on a finial with
the grain oriented in the spinal turning mode, otherwise they will
tend to break easily. You can turn a round knob on the lid, that will
generally stand up to use, but the fancy finials are all turned in
spindle fashion and attached after the box is completed.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Like Fred said, most boxes are made in the end grain orientation, Wood
movement will be pretty consistent so that when it does move, and it
will, the lid an bottom will move in the same directions so that you
may get an oval, but the lid will match the oval. Flat grain moves
differently. If the top and bottom are made from the same piece of
wood, when you get movement, they will match, but you will get both
oval/horizontal and height/up and down movement, so there can be gaps.
Boxes are generally small because if you make one bigger than about 2
to 3 inches, there is more wood movement, and it can cause problems
with fitting the lid.

As far as finials, you could use end grain on a flat grain box as the
finial is small, especially the tenon which you insert into a hole,
and movement will be very minimal. The thing I worry about is that
people tend to try to take the lid off using the finial. You do not
want a tight fit. You can make a finial out of one piece, but, if it
is flat grain, the finial will probably break before you finish
turning it as cross grain in a finial is weak. I do turn some simple
boxes where I make a knob for lifting the lid off, that is all from
one piece of wood. In most cases, finials are made from a contrasting
color of wood, which generally looks better.

robo hippy
On Nov 9, 4:54*pm, Fred Holder wrote:
On Nov 9, 4:46 pm, Fred Holder wrote:





On Nov 9, 9:40 am, Kevin wrote:

Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've
been turning bowls with tops/covers. *I hesitate to call them boxes as
my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the
direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross
grain. *Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all
have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. *I believe
that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper
clips, and what nots. *But now I consider the finial. *I've seen many
fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top
and then attached later.
Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with
the top and finial combined?

Hello Kevin,

Most small boxes are made with the grain parallel to the axis of
rotation on the lathe (or endgrain). One reason for this is that the
wood in this orientation does not change with the weather as much as
in the other orientation. That said, if you put a lid on it, it is a
box.

However, if you seal the wood properly when you finish it, there is
generally less change with the weather, because more moisture can't
get in and any moisture remaining in the box is pretty well retained
there.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Sorry Kevin,

I forgot to answer your question about finials. On side grain boxes
like you are making, it is always necessary to put on a finial with
the grain oriented in the spinal turning mode, otherwise they will
tend to break easily. You can turn a round knob on the lid, that will
generally stand up to use, but the fancy finials are all turned in
spindle fashion and attached after the box is completed.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

If you're thinking in terms of a short lid "pull" - then you're probably
ok making
it an integral part of the lid of an acrossed the grain piece. If, on
the other
hand, you have a taller, more delicate FINIAL in mind for lifting the
lid off
- probably not a good idea since the grain orientation will make it
pretty
easy for you or someone else to snap it off.

I get from other information that you provided that you're not real sure
about wood movement - as the piece dries - and once dry, how it will
change with changes in temperature and humidity. Not accounting for
those changes can be a real problem when you add a lid to something,
be it a bowl or a lidded box - especially when the piece isn't turned
"end grain".

You might want to have a look at this stuff on SHRINKAGE I'm working
on as an article on the importance - or not - of UNIFORM WALL THICKNESS
- a Common Knowledge Rule - which seems to be not quite true.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...inkageTOC.html

Comments, questions, suggestions for improving, missing critical
issues, flat out error detection, etc. would be appreciated.

On Nov 11, 4:15*am, charlie b wrote:
If you're thinking in terms of a short lid "pull" - then you're probably
ok making
it an integral part of the lid of an acrossed the grain piece. *If, on
the other
hand, you have a taller, more delicate FINIAL in mind for lifting the
lid off
- probably not a good idea since *the grain orientation will make it
pretty
easy for you or someone else to snap it off.

I get from other information that you provided that you're not real sure
about wood movement - as the piece dries - and once dry, how it will
change with changes in temperature and humidity. *Not accounting for
those changes can be a real problem when you add a lid to something,
be it a bowl or a lidded box - especially when the piece isn't turned
"end grain".

You might want to have a look at this stuff on SHRINKAGE I'm working
on as an article on the importance - or not - of UNIFORM WALL THICKNESS
- a Common Knowledge Rule - which seems to be not quite true.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...e/BowlShrinkag...

Comments, questions, suggestions for improving, missing critical
issues, flat out error detection, etc. *would be appreciated.

Kevin here, the OP.

First off, thanks to all that replied.
To be completely honest, I did not think of cross grain versus
parallel grain finials, or at least not in terms of the former
breaking easier than the latter. The bowl is about 6" and perhaps 2"
high. The top would have, well not a finial but more of a small knob
on top with a neck (?) of no more than .25" in length. I tend to make
the tops for my bowls loose fitting just so folks can get to the
goodies inside. I am aware of movement, warpage, and the relationship
to drying and do try to keep a uniform wall thickness but most of the
wood I have has been in my basement are about 2-3" thick slabs and
were cut July 2007.
Thanks again for reminding me of the need to consider wood grain in
finials.

Those slabs will still move a bit after you turn them. 3 inch thick
slabs will come close to drying, but never really reach equilibrium.
Wood is like that. You may want to rough turn them first, let them
'adjust' for a few days, then return them.

robo hippy

On Nov 11, 7:51*am, Kevin wrote:
On Nov 11, 4:15*am, charlie b wrote:





If you're thinking in terms of a short lid "pull" - then you're probably
ok making
it an integral part of the lid of an acrossed the grain piece. *If, on
the other
hand, you have a taller, more delicate FINIAL in mind for lifting the
lid off
- probably not a good idea since *the grain orientation will make it
pretty
easy for you or someone else to snap it off.

I get from other information that you provided that you're not real sure
about wood movement - as the piece dries - and once dry, how it will
change with changes in temperature and humidity. *Not accounting for
those changes can be a real problem when you add a lid to something,
be it a bowl or a lidded box - especially when the piece isn't turned
"end grain".

You might want to have a look at this stuff on SHRINKAGE I'm working
on as an article on the importance - or not - of UNIFORM WALL THICKNESS
- a Common Knowledge Rule - which seems to be not quite true.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...e/BowlShrinkag...

Comments, questions, suggestions for improving, missing critical
issues, flat out error detection, etc. *would be appreciated.

Kevin here, the OP.

First off, thanks to all that replied.
To be completely honest, I did not think of cross grain versus
parallel grain finials, or at least not in terms of the former
breaking easier than the latter. *The bowl is about 6" and perhaps 2"
high. *The top would have, well not a finial but more of a small knob
on top with a neck (?) of no more than .25" in length. *I tend to make
the tops for my bowls loose fitting just so folks can get to the
goodies inside. I am aware of movement, warpage, and the relationship
to drying and do try to keep a uniform wall thickness but most of the
wood I have has been in my basement *are about 2-3" thick slabs and
were cut July 2007.
Thanks again for reminding me of the need to consider wood grain in
finials.