Walking through the house to the utility room, I spied Norm at the
lathe! I rarely get to watch any of these woodworking shows, and
don't have much interest in them, but if they mount a piece of wood on
a lathe they have me.

I was surprised to see how much better the end result was for Norm
than his previous efforts. I remember a previous project that had
huge tearout and probably enough heavy sanding to ruin his originally
desired shape or profile. It was awful, and nothing short.

They didn't really show him turning anything, but they did show him
using a flat scraper almost at a 45 angle, on a spindle profile so
they could shoot him at the lathe. He was doing finish cuts, but I
don't know how they could get anything smooth the way he held the tool
with the butt of the handle almost at his waist. I am wondering if
he is up to his old heavy sanding tricks, starting with the 60 grit
finishing gouge.

I only use scrapers to clean up the inside of a bowl or vase. I don't
*ever* remember using a scraper on the outside of a spindle profile.
I rememer some talking about this as they used the scraper to rough,
profile, and finish on the outside, not just refine the finish.

Years ago we had this debate in our club.... scrape or cut spindles?
There were a few scrapers, and sadly I am not sure how they did it.
But they roughed with giant scrapers and then just worked their way
down as needed to smaller ones. They looked at "cutting" with a
spindle gouge as something you did for the last, final details. Some
of these guys turned out nice work, and they knew how to use both
scraper and gouge and preferred the scraper.

So where do you guys land on this? Are you scrapers or cutters when
spindle turning? And of course the big question... why?

Robert

Hi Robert, Good question that deserves a better answer. Sometimes I
get true spindles and exteriors of end grain boxes etc. mixed up. I
admit that I have held a skew level with the centerline or even dipped
it slightly below center on the exterior of boxes. Why? No logic. The
skew wasn't working so I tried gently scraping with it. It sometimes
helped, more often didn't. Probably depended on the species and physical
state of the wood ...and whether the skew was sharp.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

" wrote:

So where do you guys land on this? Are you scrapers or cutters when
spindle turning? And of course the big question... why?

I'm a scraper. Probably because I did flat work before ever using a lathe,
and very often the only way to get a reasonable finish on gnarly stock is
with a card scraper. When I got to the lathe it just seemed sensible to use
what I knew.

As far as spindles go I live with a skew, or actually several skews, and the
occasional spindle gouge. Interestingly enough, for spindle oriented face
plate work I like an Oland for most of the turning with hook tools inside. I
do use scrapers as shear scrapers on the outside before sanding, but that is
not really what you are asking, methinks.
Darrell

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS
http://aroundthewoods.com
"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:qzvWh.1173$dM1.21@trndny07...
" wrote:

So where do you guys land on this? Are you scrapers or cutters when
spindle turning? And of course the big question... why?

I'm a scraper. Probably because I did flat work before ever using a lathe,
and very often the only way to get a reasonable finish on gnarly stock is
with a card scraper. When I got to the lathe it just seemed sensible to
use
what I knew.

wrote in message
ups.com...

They didn't really show him turning anything, but they did show him
using a flat scraper almost at a 45 angle, on a spindle profile so
they could shoot him at the lathe. He was doing finish cuts, but I
don't know how they could get anything smooth the way he held the tool
with the butt of the handle almost at his waist. I am wondering if
he is up to his old heavy sanding tricks, starting with the 60 grit
finishing gouge.


At an angle? As in "shear scraping?" Since, best I can determine, that's
cutting without bevel support, it'd probably work if you could control the
tool, and it'd make a nice surface as long as he was cutting down hill. On
a piece of hard maple even a broadside scrape is not cause for anything
coarser than 150, though I'd hesitate to try it on softwood or a ring-porous
hardwood.

As to holding the handle of the tool at the waist, are you saying it was a
long-handled tool, or was it a short-handled tool and he was cutting way
above the navel? All those folks who cut with the wings of their "bowl"
gouges ought to be used to that.

Now I like to do all my cutting with the tool handle as horizontal as
possible, because it gives me shorter extension over the rest and greater
support against the thrust of the work, both of which foster control for the
cut and take strain from my arm. But my tools are ground to do that kind of
cutting, so it's no real trouble.

Personally I think Norm's a wizard at the tablesaw and presents the flow of
work very well. In his use of the "routah," he's definitely behind old Bob
and Rick, and in his knowledge of the lathe, not up to Hout, or even my boy
Roy. Not that it makes a difference, because I don't come close to any of
them either.

On Apr 21, 6:03 pm, "George" wrote:

At an angle? As in "shear scraping?" Since, best I can determine, that's
cutting without bevel support, it'd probably work if you could control the
tool, and it'd make a nice surface as long as he was cutting down hill. On
a piece of hard maple even a broadside scrape is not cause for anything
coarser than 150, though I'd hesitate to try it on softwood or a ring-porous
hardwood.

As to holding the handle of the tool at the waist, are you saying it was a
long-handled tool, or was it a short-handled tool and he was cutting way
above the navel? All those folks who cut with the wings of their "bowl"
gouges ought to be used to that.

Let me elaborate. He had a (looked to me) 3/4"x14" scraper with a
traditional looking grind on the end. I am aware that some burr, and
some don't, but I didn't see that on the TV. But looking to be
somewhere between 20 - 30 degrees, he held a long handled scraper on
the tool rest (1/4" from the work) at about 45 degrees (sorry Norm,
if I missed the exact angle due to TV camera distortion). The scraper
was completely supported, and he pushed it right into the work like he
was using a gouge.

I had not seen a scraper used that way. I have seen them drug
(unsupported, with a good burr) across a bowl with the tail of the
scraper being at about 80 degrees, almost straight up, the gouge
slipping along the surface (I'll bet like Arch is using his) and
taking off whiskers.

I use mine to clean up sides on a deep, straight sided cylinder by
cleaning out with a gouge, then pushing the scraper straight in with
the scraper being horizontal and the placement at 9:30 or less.

Norm was turning a bun style foot for an ottoman. I just hadn't seen
anyone use a scraper to cut profiles on spindles, and since he is kind
of a mainstream guy I was wondering if I was missing something.

Personally I think Norm's a wizard at the tablesaw and presents the flow of
work very well. In his use of the "routah," he's definitely behind old Bob
and Rick, and in his knowledge of the lathe, not up to Hout, or even my boy
Roy. Not that it makes a difference, because I don't come close to any of
them either.

He does indeed have that tablesaw down cold. And you know, I keep
waiting, but no one is calling me, so I don't guess I'll have a show
soon myself.

Robert

On Apr 21, 5:02 pm, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:

As far as spindles go I live with a skew, or actually several skews, and the
occasional spindle gouge. Interestingly enough, for spindle oriented face
plate work I like an Oland for most of the turning with hook tools inside. I
do use scrapers as shear scrapers on the outside before sanding, but that is
not really what you are asking, methinks.
Darrell

Still working on my skewage, Darrell. I do well when the skewmaster I
know is at my elbow, but soon after I lose the touch. I think it is
because I don't do much spindle turning at all. I like bowls, lamps,
etc, and even when I went through the pen stage some years back I used
a "continental gouge" because one of my buddies had one and I liked
it.

I was actuall shooting for more on the idea of what tool is being used
on a true spindle, like a table leg, baluster, gavel, etc. Do you use
your Olands on those, too?

Robert

Robert
I am sort of a "whatever tool works use it" kind of guy but I usually keep
to only a couple on a project because I am too lazy to keep going back to
the rack. For "true" spindle work I use mostly skews, even for table legs
and the like. Typically on something like a gavel I would rough with
roughing gouge, size with a parting tool or 3/16" Oland, bead with a skew
and groove with a small spindle gouge or a 3/16" Oland.
Darrell
---
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS
http://aroundthewoods.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 21, 5:02 pm, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:

As far as spindles go I live with a skew, or actually several skews, and
the
occasional spindle gouge. Interestingly enough, for spindle oriented face
plate work I like an Oland for most of the turning with hook tools
inside. I
do use scrapers as shear scrapers on the outside before sanding, but that
is
not really what you are asking, methinks.
Darrell

Still working on my skewage, Darrell. I do well when the skewmaster I
know is at my elbow, but soon after I lose the touch. I think it is
because I don't do much spindle turning at all. I like bowls, lamps,
etc, and even when I went through the pen stage some years back I used
a "continental gouge" because one of my buddies had one and I liked
it.

I was actuall shooting for more on the idea of what tool is being used
on a true spindle, like a table leg, baluster, gavel, etc. Do you use
your Olands on those, too?

Robert

wrote in message
ups.com...
Let me elaborate. He had a (looked to me) 3/4"x14" scraper with a
traditional looking grind on the end. I am aware that some burr, and
some don't, but I didn't see that on the TV. But looking to be
somewhere between 20 - 30 degrees, he held a long handled scraper on
the tool rest (1/4" from the work) at about 45 degrees (sorry Norm,
if I missed the exact angle due to TV camera distortion). The scraper
was completely supported, and he pushed it right into the work like he
was using a gouge.


Sounds like he was trying to duplicate the profile of the scraper. Sort of
using it like a molding cutter.

I had not seen a scraper used that way.

What you describe is the traditional way scrapers are used, if I'm understanding
your correctly. Handle about flat, or slightly higher than the cutting edge,
blunt grind (about 15° relief), using the natural burr from the grindstone to
remove small shavings.

This is how I always teach newbies. I get them started on scrapers first. No
chance of a dig-in and the skill level is low so they don't get discouraged. It
takes longer to get the shape, but that's OK.

Just so you know, scraping is the method of choice for foundry patternmakers.
Scraping gives them dimensional accuracy you can't get with shearing tools.
Patternmakers regularly work to tolerances of plus-or-minus 1/100 inch.


I have seen them drug
(unsupported, with a good burr) across a bowl with the tail of the
scraper being at about 80 degrees, almost straight up, the gouge
slipping along the surface

This sounds like shear scraping.

Robert, I think Lobby got what you were shooting at better than I did as
he mentioned a card scraper. Not being an ex-flattie, I think of a
scraper as a robust handled tool. Truth is I use a set of burred hand
held cabinet scrapers to finish cleaning up curved exteriors frequently.

As an OT aside, maybe we should consider a consensus glossary so that
these words mean the same to all of us: "face turning" including cross,
end and burl grain orientations. Same with "spindle turning", Also words
like bowl turning, hollow turning, scraping, shear scraping, cutting,
European style tools, scrapers, bowl gouges, spindle gouges. detail
gouges, spindle roughing gouges.


Maybe we are all on the same page already or never can be, but the
responses to your thread re scraping raises the question.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Normally, I wouldn't think of using a scraper on a spindle tool, but
then there was this demo at the Umpqua Woodturning Club in Roseburg,
Or. Fred Ugla was the demonstrator, and he was using a local tool
called the 'Big ugly tool'. You silver solder a piece of tantung (very
hard and brittle steel that keeps an edge forever) onto a piece of 3/4
inch square steel stock. The traditional version has a cutter on both
ends, and you wear a heavy glove to protect your hands. It was
developed by the Oregon coastal myrtle wood turners. Fred was turning
these 2 to 3 inch long finials about the diameter of a pencil with all
sorts on nice beads, coves, ogees and points with the big ugly tool,
and the end results needed no sanding. Intrigued, I made one with a
wood handle, and have tried to learn how to use it. The more I use it,
the more I like it. I can't use it for a finish tool, but I can see
how with practice it is possible. I should get hold of Fred and see if
I can spend a day with him and learn how to use the tool. I don't know
if there is any official info about it anywhere, but you have to see
it to believe it.
robo hippy
On Apr 22, 7:32 am, (Arch) wrote:
Robert, I think Lobby got what you were shooting at better than I did as
he mentioned a card scraper. Not being an ex-flattie, I think of a
scraper as a robust handled tool. Truth is I use a set of burred hand
held cabinet scrapers to finish cleaning up curved exteriors frequently.

As an OT aside, maybe we should consider a consensus glossary so that
these words mean the same to all of us: "face turning" including cross,
end and burl grain orientations. Same with "spindle turning", Also words
like bowl turning, hollow turning, scraping, shear scraping, cutting,
European style tools, scrapers, bowl gouges, spindle gouges. detail
gouges, spindle roughing gouges.

Maybe we are all on the same page already or never can be, but the
responses to your thread re scraping raises the question.

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Apr 22, 8:29 am, "Dan Bollinger"
wrote:
I had not seen a scraper used that way.

What you describe is the traditional way scrapers are used, if I'm understanding
your correctly. Handle about flat, or slightly higher than the cutting edge,
blunt grind (about 15° relief), using the natural burr from the grindstone to
remove small shavings.

Actually, as I posted, this was the crux of my question:

He had a (looked to me) 3/4"x14" scraper with a
traditional looking grind on the end. I am aware that some burr, and
some don't, but I didn't see that on the TV. But looking to be
somewhere between 20 - 30 degrees, he held a long handled scraper on
the tool rest (1/4" from the work) at about 45 degrees (sorry Norm,
if I missed the exact angle due to TV camera distortion). The scraper
was completely supported, and he pushed it right into the work like he
was using a gouge.

Presentation was like a gouge. The angle of the tool itself, handle
inclusive of the body was at app. 30 to 45 degrees off perpendicular
to the material. In other words, he was using it like a gouge, the
handle not being remotely close to level with the work, and the non
business end of the tool being a few inches lower than the material.

This is how I always teach newbies. I get them started on scrapers first. No
chance of a dig-in and the skill level is low so they don't get discouraged. It
takes longer to get the shape, but that's OK.

You know, the vaunted teacher Mike Darlow just wrote a carefully
written article in one of the wood mags of scraping vs. cutting when
learning. He was pretty clear without saying it outright that he had
a fair amount of disdain for those that scrape. He acknowledged that
many find scraping to be their best bet, especially when starting
out. I know of more than one white knuckled turner that is scared to
death of a catch - and having a couple of heart stoppers myself, I
remember why. But I could sense that Darlow didn't think scraping was
a good thing.

I am in the Darrell club, I'll try anything that I think will work. I
turn a lot on my Jet mini, and I have a couple of lower end 3/8"
gouges that I bought that I uses for just about everything once I get
the piece roughed round. These gouges have really shallow, wide
flutes, and each is ground completely different. For spindle work, I
have one ground with about a 60 angle, well swept back. For hollowing
and scooping end grained (my favorite orientation), I have the same
one ground into something that looks like a shallow Ellsworth ground
tool. Since the flute is so shallow it has a lot of meat under the
grind and it doesn't vibrate until you get waaaay down into the form.
This grind is about useless on true spindle turning, though.

Just so you know, scraping is the method of choice for foundry patternmakers.
Scraping gives them dimensional accuracy you can't get with shearing tools.
Patternmakers regularly work to tolerances of plus-or-minus 1/100 inch.

I didn't know that, but it makes sense. And in that context, Norm was
trying to fit a brass wheeled socket caster on the bun foot. So maybe
he was fine tuning the shape of the foot to fit perfectly inside the
socket. That might actually make sense! Still... it was Norm's angle
of presentation that got me.


I have seen them drug
(unsupported, with a good burr) across a bowl with the tail of the
scraper being at about 80 degrees, almost straight up, the gouge
slipping along the surface

This sounds like shear scraping.

Classic shear scraping. It is like Arch's cabinet scrapers except
only the paltry width of the scraper.

Robert

On 22 Apr 2007 11:41:34 -0700, "
wrote:

Presentation was like a gouge. The angle of the tool itself, handle
inclusive of the body was at app. 30 to 45 degrees off perpendicular
to the material. In other words, he was using it like a gouge, the
handle not being remotely close to level with the work, and the non
business end of the tool being a few inches lower than the material.

Ahhh... now I understand what you're saying. Yes, I do that- The
reasoning behind it in my case depends on the scraper. With the
round-nose scraper, I start perpendicular to the work, and swing it
about 10* every so often to present a fresh edge to the piece. It
just saves grinding time that way. In the case of the square scraper
(where the edges come off at 45* and meet at a 90* point in the
middle), why a guy would do that should be fairly obvious.

You know, the vaunted teacher Mike Darlow just wrote a carefully
written article in one of the wood mags of scraping vs. cutting when
learning. He was pretty clear without saying it outright that he had
a fair amount of disdain for those that scrape. He acknowledged that
many find scraping to be their best bet, especially when starting
out. I know of more than one white knuckled turner that is scared to
death of a catch - and having a couple of heart stoppers myself, I
remember why. But I could sense that Darlow didn't think scraping was
a good thing.

I am in the Darrell club, I'll try anything that I think will work. I
turn a lot on my Jet mini, and I have a couple of lower end 3/8"
gouges that I bought that I uses for just about everything once I get
the piece roughed round. These gouges have really shallow, wide
flutes, and each is ground completely different. For spindle work, I
have one ground with about a 60 angle, well swept back. For hollowing
and scooping end grained (my favorite orientation), I have the same
one ground into something that looks like a shallow Ellsworth ground
tool. Since the flute is so shallow it has a lot of meat under the
grind and it doesn't vibrate until you get waaaay down into the form.
This grind is about useless on true spindle turning, though.

I'm not in anybody's club- I just want to get the wood off
efficiently, without too much tedious sanding. Sometimes a good
cutter does that for me, sometimes a scraper is needed to keep the
work from tearing out. I even will use a power sander, in a pinch.


A guy can learn a lot of stuff from watching others work, but it's a
bad idea to simply accept that someone else's way is the best! There
are so many things to do just about anything, that limiting ones' self
to any set of tools or orthodoxies is really doing a disservice to
your efficiency.

I didn't know that, but it makes sense. And in that context, Norm was
trying to fit a brass wheeled socket caster on the bun foot. So maybe
he was fine tuning the shape of the foot to fit perfectly inside the
socket. That might actually make sense! Still... it was Norm's angle
of presentation that got me.


I have seen them drug
(unsupported, with a good burr) across a bowl with the tail of the
scraper being at about 80 degrees, almost straight up, the gouge
slipping along the surface

This sounds like shear scraping.

Classic shear scraping. It is like Arch's cabinet scrapers except
only the paltry width of the scraper.

Robert

Hi Robert

Robert have you ever looked at the bits they use in the wood lathe
copiers ??, I would classify them as scrapers, and are notorious for
their rough finish on softwood.
No I didn't see the NYW as I also rarely waste my time on the boob
tube.
However turning wood with a scraper I do know about, I started turning
as a hobby in the lathe 50ish, never seen anyone turn wood nor the
tools they used
I set out with what I knew in respect of metal turning, (I did never
see anyone turn wood until about 15 years ago) so I made my own tools,
and found the angles that worked for me, my family had/has a
blacksmith/machine shop and car repair/build garage, and I could use a
big old metal lathe to use for my wood turning.
I found real quick that the denser the wood the better a surface I
wood get off my tool, yes all sanding was hand sanding both with or
without the lathe turning.
Always did and still do more bowl turning than spindle turning, and I
could get a decent surface with a scraper on hard wood, still lots of
sanding though.
After I got the bowl and spindle gouges maybe 15 years ago, and
Raffans turning book and learned myself how to use them, I would never
go back to using scrapers as I used to do, if you can get a gouge
positioned so it is able to cut, you will get a much better surface
than using a scraper IMO.
On spindles the skew is by far the better tool for straight grained
softwood, but it does keep you on your toes with (for me) the
occasional #!@** runback screw thread cutting action, that was NOT
intended.
However there are times that the wood will not cut well or that it is
difficult to get the normal tool in a cutting positioning, that is
when the scraper will come to the rescue or the tool in hand is used
in a scraping way.

SO I'll cut if possible and scrape it necessary, and on spindles it is
skew, gouge, or if nothing else works, maybe a scraper, but it better
be hardwood.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On Apr 21, 3:18 pm, "
wrote:
Walking through the house to the utility room, I spied Norm at the
lathe! I rarely get to watch any of these woodworking shows, and
don't have much interest in them, but if they mount a piece of wood on
a lathe they have me.

I was surprised to see how much better the end result was for Norm
than his previous efforts. I remember a previous project that had
huge tearout and probably enough heavy sanding to ruin his originally
desired shape or profile. It was awful, and nothing short.

They didn't really show him turning anything, but they did show him
using a flat scraper almost at a 45 angle, on a spindle profile so
they could shoot him at the lathe. He was doing finish cuts, but I
don't know how they could get anything smooth the way he held the tool
with the butt of the handle almost at his waist. I am wondering if
he is up to his old heavy sanding tricks, starting with the 60 grit
finishing gouge.

I only use scrapers to clean up the inside of a bowl or vase. I don't
*ever* remember using a scraper on the outside of a spindle profile.
I rememer some talking about this as they used the scraper to rough,
profile, and finish on the outside, not just refine the finish.

Years ago we had this debate in our club.... scrape or cut spindles?
There were a few scrapers, and sadly I am not sure how they did it.
But they roughed with giant scrapers and then just worked their way
down as needed to smaller ones. They looked at "cutting" with a
spindle gouge as something you did for the last, final details. Some
of these guys turned out nice work, and they knew how to use both
scraper and gouge and preferred the scraper.

So where do you guys land on this? Are you scrapers or cutters when
spindle turning? And of course the big question... why?

Robert

wrote:

So where do you guys land on this? Are you scrapers or cutters when
spindle turning? And of course the big question... why?

Robert

Yes.

grin

I have a rack mounted to the legs of my lathe. I use whichever tool
looks sharpest and will get in where I need to get it. I usually make my
last cut with a skew unless I am having a day where the skew just isn't
working right.

If the burr is gone off the scraper I'll run a thumb over the gouge to
see if it will work. If I'm making a pen or similar, I'll just crank the
rpms up and grab the skew and go from rough to finish. If they are all
dull, I'll take a few licks with a diamond to see if I can revive
whatever I picked up last. If not, I'll grab a couple of 'em and walk
over to the belt sander.

It's just me in the basement. If I hadn't told you, you would never have
known that I don't do everything exactly perfect. ;-)

Some days I can work the skew like a symphony conductor works a baton.
Some days I make a lot of random single-lead screw threads. It's been a
while since I've had a really bad dig ... but that just means that the
next one is edging closer.

One thing is certain ... when the wood goes flying, that piece is done.

FWIW, I usually use a 3/4 Sorby oval skew with a slightly convex cutting
edge. But I also have a big fat flat skew that sometimes works when the
Sorby is having a bad day. The BFF skew actually has a slightly concave
edge from an over-zealous sharpening 'event'.

Bill

--
http://nmwoodworks.com/cube


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On Apr 23, 11:56 pm, Bill in Detroit wrote:

SNIP

It's just me in the basement. If I hadn't told you, you would never have known that I don't do everything exactly perfect. ;-)

WHAAAT? Not perfect? I would never have suspected.

;^)

You know, I think I am seeing a pattern here. Seems like everyone
just kinda grabs whatever is handy and starts.

I thought I was the only one...

Robert