This post is in response to Arch's response to the thread
"Foreward/Reverse Options? Why?

"Not knowing any better, I find that reverse sanding can be useful when
sanding stringy wood or removing burnish marks. Some things 'seem' to
work for me that science insists can't, so I just keep on 'doing it
wrong' til science catches up.

I bet I'm not the only woodturner who not knowing any better, does
things that can't work. "

Until the advent of high speed filming, the bumble bee wasn't
supposed to be able to fly. The wings just weren't large enough
to provide enough lift given the mass of the bumble bee. All
the "known" rules of aerodynamics "proved" it couldn't fly - yet
bumble bees did in fact fly. "Known" is the key word here.

When filmed with a high speed movie camera, the reason the
bumble bee COULD, in fact, fly became obvious. The assumption
had been that the wings could only provide lift on the "down
stroke". WRONG! Turns out the wings can change their orientation
to get lift on both the down stroke and the "up stroke" - almost
doubling their "lift" capabilities.

When I was teaching lost wax casting of jewelry and small sculpture
I'd occassionally get a student who did something every thing I'd read
and seen and everything that I "knew" - was impossible - The Bumble
Bee Syndrome. Most of the time we couldn't reproduce the results.
BUT - sometimes we could figure out how and why the "impossible"
wasn't.

As is the case with most things, "conventional wisdom" has a long
set of DOs and DON'Ts. Turning seems to have more than its
share this. Now a lot of the DON'Ts have to do with safety -
spinning a chunk of wood and then poking it with a sharp tool
is "obviously" an insane thing to do. I'm sure there was an
observer watching the first turner about to spin some wood,
sharp rock ready to cut off wood - who was yelling "YOU'RE
GONNA DO WHAT?!!!!!!"

Now it might be because many woodturners are self taught
and didn't know any better, that there are so many tools
and techniques for doing the same thing, and some tools
and techniques that "conventional wisdom" wasn't aware
of. Then some guy in a little shed behind his house, or
in his basement, did something in a state of ignorant
bliss, which opened up a new turning possibility - or a new
way or doing things - or a trip to the emergency room
(or maybe even the morgue).

Take the "fingernail" grind on a bowl gouge. Someone,
probably in a hurry, may have ground a roughing gouge
"wrong" and used it anyway to get a job done. A light
bulb went off in his/her head - "Hey, if I grind the wings
back a bit more . . ."

You may have seen the bowl gouge with the asymetric
finger nail grind that is used to cut on both side of
centerline - the conventional "downward into the tool
rest" side AND the "upward away from the tool rest"
side - on the inside of a bowl. Now when you think about
it - on the outside of a bowl you use only one edge. One
the inside of the bowl you use the opposite edge. You
seldom alternate between inside turning and outside
turning on a bowl. That means you have to stop and
sharpen the edge you're using more often - even though
the other edge is still sharp.

I'm sure I've done things with a curved edge skew that
I probably shouldn't have done - loose rings for example.
Perhaps because I do smaller pieces the potential
danger was significantly lessened - larger could've
spelled disaster. Maybe scale is a factor in what can
and can't be done - or more accurately - should and
shouldn't be done.

I hollow lidded boxes and even some bowls with a
skew. Made sense to me at the time and I've found
it works well enough - for me. Drill a hole and then
shove the long point against it and push. Works
like a scraper - though a lot faster. The finish isn't
as nice but hey - that's what the "80 Grit Gouge" is
for.

So what have you come up with that "convntional
wisdom" says you can't or shouldn't do?

charlie b
member of the ATA (Anarchist Turners Association)
- a contradiction in terms? The motto
"There are no RULES, only recomendations"

What Charlieb said paraphrased is "We did it because we didn't know it
was impossible." and that reminds me of one of the old Bugs Bunny
cartoons where he runs off the end of the cliff and doesn't plummet.
Why? He never studied law (the law of gravity)


On Apr 13, 1:28 pm, charlieb wrote:
This post is in response to Arch's response to the thread
"Foreward/Reverse Options? Why?

"Not knowing any better, I find that reverse sanding can be useful when
sanding stringy wood or removing burnish marks. Some things 'seem' to
work for me that science insists can't, so I just keep on 'doing it
wrong' til science catches up.

I bet I'm not the only woodturner who not knowing any better, does
things that can't work. "

Until the advent of high speed filming, the bumble bee wasn't
supposed to be able to fly. The wings just weren't large enough
to provide enough lift given the mass of the bumble bee. All
the "known" rules of aerodynamics "proved" it couldn't fly - yet
bumble bees did in fact fly. "Known" is the key word here.

When filmed with a high speed movie camera, the reason the
bumble bee COULD, in fact, fly became obvious. The assumption
had been that the wings could only provide lift on the "down
stroke". WRONG! Turns out the wings can change their orientation
to get lift on both the down stroke and the "up stroke" - almost
doubling their "lift" capabilities.

When I was teaching lost wax casting of jewelry and small sculpture
I'd occassionally get a student who did something every thing I'd read
and seen and everything that I "knew" - was impossible - The Bumble
Bee Syndrome. Most of the time we couldn't reproduce the results.
BUT - sometimes we could figure out how and why the "impossible"
wasn't.

As is the case with most things, "conventional wisdom" has a long
set of DOs and DON'Ts. Turning seems to have more than its
share this. Now a lot of the DON'Ts have to do with safety -
spinning a chunk of wood and then poking it with a sharp tool
is "obviously" an insane thing to do. I'm sure there was an
observer watching the first turner about to spin some wood,
sharp rock ready to cut off wood - who was yelling "YOU'RE
GONNA DO WHAT?!!!!!!"

Now it might be because many woodturners are self taught
and didn't know any better, that there are so many tools
and techniques for doing the same thing, and some tools
and techniques that "conventional wisdom" wasn't aware
of. Then some guy in a little shed behind his house, or
in his basement, did something in a state of ignorant
bliss, which opened up a new turning possibility - or a new
way or doing things - or a trip to the emergency room
(or maybe even the morgue).

Take the "fingernail" grind on a bowl gouge. Someone,
probably in a hurry, may have ground a roughing gouge
"wrong" and used it anyway to get a job done. A light
bulb went off in his/her head - "Hey, if I grind the wings
back a bit more . . ."

You may have seen the bowl gouge with the asymetric
finger nail grind that is used to cut on both side of
centerline - the conventional "downward into the tool
rest" side AND the "upward away from the tool rest"
side - on the inside of a bowl. Now when you think about
it - on the outside of a bowl you use only one edge. One
the inside of the bowl you use the opposite edge. You
seldom alternate between inside turning and outside
turning on a bowl. That means you have to stop and
sharpen the edge you're using more often - even though
the other edge is still sharp.

I'm sure I've done things with a curved edge skew that
I probably shouldn't have done - loose rings for example.
Perhaps because I do smaller pieces the potential
danger was significantly lessened - larger could've
spelled disaster. Maybe scale is a factor in what can
and can't be done - or more accurately - should and
shouldn't be done.

I hollow lidded boxes and even some bowls with a
skew. Made sense to me at the time and I've found
it works well enough - for me. Drill a hole and then
shove the long point against it and push. Works
like a scraper - though a lot faster. The finish isn't
as nice but hey - that's what the "80 Grit Gouge" is
for.

So what have you come up with that "convntional
wisdom" says you can't or shouldn't do?

charlie b
member of the ATA (Anarchist Turners Association)
- a contradiction in terms? The motto
"There are no RULES, only recomendations"

Charlie b, there you go again, provoking us into thinking or in my case,
trying to. Crisscrossing your interesting threads, I wonder if there
is a sort of continuum with machining and woodturning at opposite ends
of the spectrum with no line drawn in the sand!. The farther toward the
woodturning end the larger the bumble bee swarm. The swarming (syndrome)
falling off as the increased precision, accuracy and need for assisted
tool control demanded in machining increases. This regardless of the
material being machined or the machinery being used. ie. hard wood or
plastic can be machined and soft copper or aluminum can be hand turned.


I imagine that conventional wisdom would frown on driving spindles with
a spur center without tail support. I sometimes use my fingers or hand
as a temporary tail center or as a steady rest without tail support. So
far I haven't needed a hand surgeon and a bumble bee hasn't stung me
yet. This technique works for me, but I'm only answering your query.
I'm sure not suggesting it for anyone else.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

charlieb wrote:
snip

Until the advent of high speed filming, the bumble bee wasn't
supposed to be able to fly. The wings just weren't large enough
to provide enough lift given the mass of the bumble bee. All
the "known" rules of aerodynamics "proved" it couldn't fly - yet
bumble bees did in fact fly. "Known" is the key word here.

When filmed with a high speed movie camera, the reason the
bumble bee COULD, in fact, fly became obvious. The assumption
had been that the wings could only provide lift on the "down
stroke". WRONG! Turns out the wings can change their orientation
to get lift on both the down stroke and the "up stroke" - almost
doubling their "lift" capabilities.

Not THIS again.

It was not "until the advent of high speed filming", it was until the
advent of sobriety on the part of the guy who did the calculation on a
napkin at a dinner party. That part, however, usually is forgotten.

snip

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)