Just thought I'd give thanks for taking the time to submit your comments on
freeze-dried and vacuum drying. Lots of negative responses could leave you
with the impression it was a waste of time.

Probably more of us than you might think appreciate the material and the
responses of the others as well.

Good discussion.
TomNie

I think so too, Tom. Fred is tremendous resource for turning knowledge
and has been for years. I personally am glad to see him back on the
group more these days.

Robert

Thank you Tom and Robert for the support. I and others have somewhat withdrawn
from the group because of those who seem to feel that they must criticize every
post that does not agree with their thinking. I originally started withdrawing
because of a fellow, whose name I've forgotten, started attacking me on almost
every post that I made and claimed that I was only posting to promote my
business. He even began writing very critical e-mails to me. I believe he was
possibly responsible for others withdrawing from the group.

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things. I simply try them, if
they work, I like to share the information with others. I have never completely
withdrawn from the group, simply stopped posting as much as I did before there
were a number of attacks of my posts. I post occasionally because I feel that
something if being overlooked in the discussions. That was the case with freeze
drying, alcohol drying, and vacuum drying.

Now, to my qualifications, I'm not a scientist, I am a writer and reporter. I've
been a technical writer for over 40 years. I've written extensively on
woodturning and blacksmithing and on electronics. I have written four books on
woodturning subjects, one currently in the publishing stage. I have published
More Woodturning for almost 10 years. I have never missed an issue and often had
to write every word in the publication myself. I have published Blacksmith's
Gazette continuously since 1994 and am responsible for starting the
alt.crafts.blacksmithing newsgroup several years ago.

I've been actively turning wood since 1988 and have always been experimental
with my work. I turn a few bowls, but mostly turn other things, which not many
others are doing, like the Chinese Ball and hand thread chasing. I attend the
Utah Woodturning Symposium each year (have been doing so since 1997) and will be
demonstrating this year for the first time. I've attended several of the AAW
symposiums and have been a member of AAW for many years. I've demonstrated
woodturning in Norway, England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Canada, New Zealand,
and extensively in the United States.

I've also been a woodcarver for a goodly number of years, but turning is still
my love. However, I think my real love is writing about woodturning.

Well, I've gone on way too long, so thanks for the support.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article .com,
says...

I think so too, Tom. Fred is tremendous resource for turning knowledge
and has been for years. I personally am glad to see him back on the
group more these days.

Robert



--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

Thanks for coming back. I just joined this group because I bought my
first lathe (delta midi lathe). I'm glad to see someone with so much
experience is here. I also am a blacksmith and will be joining your
mentioned news group.
Fred Holder wrote:
Thank you Tom and Robert for the support. I and others have somewhat withdrawn
from the group because of those who seem to feel that they must criticize every
post that does not agree with their thinking. I originally started withdrawing
because of a fellow, whose name I've forgotten, started attacking me on almost
every post that I made and claimed that I was only posting to promote my
business. He even began writing very critical e-mails to me. I believe he was
possibly responsible for others withdrawing from the group.

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things. I simply try them, if
they work, I like to share the information with others. I have never completely
withdrawn from the group, simply stopped posting as much as I did before there
were a number of attacks of my posts. I post occasionally because I feel that
something if being overlooked in the discussions. That was the case with freeze
drying, alcohol drying, and vacuum drying.

Now, to my qualifications, I'm not a scientist, I am a writer and reporter. I've
been a technical writer for over 40 years. I've written extensively on
woodturning and blacksmithing and on electronics. I have written four books on
woodturning subjects, one currently in the publishing stage. I have published
More Woodturning for almost 10 years. I have never missed an issue and often had
to write every word in the publication myself. I have published Blacksmith's
Gazette continuously since 1994 and am responsible for starting the
alt.crafts.blacksmithing newsgroup several years ago.

I've been actively turning wood since 1988 and have always been experimental
with my work. I turn a few bowls, but mostly turn other things, which not many
others are doing, like the Chinese Ball and hand thread chasing. I attend the
Utah Woodturning Symposium each year (have been doing so since 1997) and will be
demonstrating this year for the first time. I've attended several of the AAW
symposiums and have been a member of AAW for many years. I've demonstrated
woodturning in Norway, England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Canada, New Zealand,
and extensively in the United States.

I've also been a woodcarver for a goodly number of years, but turning is still
my love. However, I think my real love is writing about woodturning.

Well, I've gone on way too long, so thanks for the support.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article .com,
says...
I think so too, Tom. Fred is tremendous resource for turning knowledge
and has been for years. I personally am glad to see him back on the
group more these days.

Robert

Fred Holder wrote:

However, I think my real love is writing about woodturning.


And you do a good job of that.

"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things.

Then why should it trouble you that others do? You could, and possibly even
should learn something. Which, is one reason why the information is
presented in analysis and rebuttal. The other being to warn others against
believing a magic feather will save them when jumping from the tower when
they could save themselves by using their ears and minds.

George wrote:

"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things.


Then why should it trouble you that others do? You could, and possibly even
should learn something. Which, is one reason why the information is
presented in analysis and rebuttal. The other being to warn others against
believing a magic feather will save them when jumping from the tower when
they could save themselves by using their ears and minds.



George, You are an irritating pompous ass. Your comments for the most
part are derogatory, unwanted and more fit for the WRECK. I am sure
that if you tried very hard you could share your wisdom(?) in a manor
that would be interesting to read.

"George" George@least wrote:


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things.

Then why should it trouble you that others do? You could, and possibly
even should learn something. Which, is one reason why the information
is presented in analysis and rebuttal. The other being to warn others
against believing a magic feather will save them when jumping from
the tower when they could save themselves by using their ears and
minds.




Clue: sometimes it's the singer, not the song.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:02H2g.2906$BO2.1368@trnddc02...
"George" George@least wrote:


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things.

Then why should it trouble you that others do? You could, and possibly
even should learn something. Which, is one reason why the information
is presented in analysis and rebuttal. The other being to warn others
against believing a magic feather will save them when jumping from
the tower when they could save themselves by using their ears and
minds.




Clue: sometimes it's the singer, not the song.

With Fred, absolutely. He's made the statement directly. It's the
messenger, not the message. Halo effect is the limit of his "research."
Someone has accidental success with something - but a reputation - then as
the original "spielendoktor" has it, it becomes truth by repetition. The
hobby is full of turning legends originated by turning legends that are
plain false. One immediately to mind is that wax will "harden" soft wood
for sanding. I suppose, had the first little pig used some wax to bond that
straw house, the wolf would be a vegetarian today.

Personally, I don't think Michael Jordan, fine player he was, knows much
about jockey shorts that we haven't discovered on our own.

"George" George@least writes:

The other being to warn others against
believing a magic feather will save them when jumping from the tower when
they could save themselves by using their ears and minds.

That's a terrible analogy and you should be ashamed for using it.
The implication is that Fred's method will NEVER works, yet it does.
You imply that Fred is 100% wrong or else flat-out lying with that analogy.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

It's amazing to me that a guy that isn't 'scientific' can write about
complex turnings like Chinese balls and well fitted threads with
intricately interrelated parts and can describe holding methods with
such clarity. I bet the other person who designed them, turned them and
photographed them before giving them to the writer used science, even if
he felt no need to claim doing so.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they turn out to be one and the same
person. If so, this fellow has a lot of intuitive and scientific
knowledge and is secure enough to use both without posturing.

I say this because this guy has contributed an awful lot to this ng
without resort to low comedy, pompous sarcasm or insulting abuse as
others, including me, have to varying degrees. As for science, this
fellow cuts & tries logically to see what works before making
assumptions; sort of like the scientific method isn't it.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

George,
I've valued a number of your posts. And will look forward to others, I'm
sure.
Still I have to say that if you could just take a chill pill to calm your
righteousness it would make listening to you so much easier. "Singer/song"
"Irritating/pompous ass" are descriptions that too often are accurate. This
isn't a personal attack but a simple "wake up" comment.

As the years have passed and my expertise grown in so many areas I have
observed that, at times, all the scientific documentation and logic that I
tend to use don't explain certain phenomena. Some factor is not included. So
an open-minded acceptance of practical reality is reasonable to consider
until further evidence is acquired.

So, add data and some great reference links but just try to be less
value-judging while we other folks explore. Discoveries are often the
combination of data, green-light thinking, and comfortable, respectful,
no-fault discussions. If everything was already decided and determined we'd
be wasting our money on new research.

TomNie


Clue: sometimes it's the singer, not the song.

With Fred, absolutely. He's made the statement directly. It's the
messenger, not the message. Halo effect is the limit of his "research."
Someone has accidental success with something - but a reputation - then as
the original "spielendoktor" has it, it becomes truth by repetition. The
hobby is full of turning legends originated by turning legends that are
plain false. One immediately to mind is that wax will "harden" soft wood
for sanding. I suppose, had the first little pig used some wax to bond
that straw house, the wolf would be a vegetarian today.

Personally, I don't think Michael Jordan, fine player he was, knows much
about jockey shorts that we haven't discovered on our own.

In article ,
Fred Holder wrote:

Thank you Tom and Robert for the support. I and others have somewhat
withdrawn from the group because of those who seem to feel that they
must criticize every post that does not agree with their thinking. I
originally started withdrawing because of a fellow, whose name I've
forgotten, started attacking me on almost every post that I made and
claimed that I was only posting to promote my business. He even began
writing very critical e-mails to me. I believe he was possibly
responsible for others withdrawing from the group.

I echo Tom, Robert and others', enjoyment and appreciation of your
participation here, Fred. (I also noticed a post by Tony Manella the
other day... stick around Tony!) Please don't let the current crop of
individuals distance you again. We lost some fine talent and
well-spoken, friendly folks a couple years ago - at the time you pulled
back too. I still miss Lyn's posts and his in-depth analysis of all the
turning stuff he had - and continue to reread his past posts and More
Woodturning articles when I have a purchase decision.

(For those unfamiliar with what I'm referring to, look up posts by Lyn
Mangiameli on, say, hollowing tools. He would actually try out a half
dozen "systems" and report his likes and dislikes with each. He
approached it as a hands-on evaluation with just a touch of his
science/medical background thrown in.

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things. I simply try
them, if they work, I like to share the information with others.

BINGO! Who cares whether something is grounded with solid scientific
reasoning - if it works for you (the generalized "you") then WOOHOO! -
you found something to aid your turning. If waxing tearout works to get
a better cut, then who cares whether it stiffens or lubricates or makes
the fibers smell good? It works for those who swear by it.

A simple dissenting: "I don't believe it's a stiffening action of the
wax that results in a better cut but I'm glad it works for you" reply is
all that is necessary. Let's keep things civil and, unless it's a life
and death situation, sometimes we can just keep our keyboards quiet when
we disagree. Just smile and let the poor sap believe what he believes
and confine your commentary to more important issues, such as how to
solve our own problems.

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

"George" George@least wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:02H2g.2906$BO2.1368@trnddc02...
"George" George@least wrote:


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things.

Then why should it trouble you that others do? You could, and
possibly even should learn something. Which, is one reason why the
information is presented in analysis and rebuttal. The other being
to warn others against believing a magic feather will save them when
jumping from the tower when they could save themselves by using
their ears and minds.




Clue: sometimes it's the singer, not the song.

With Fred, absolutely. He's made the statement directly. It's the
messenger, not the message. Halo effect is the limit of his
"research." Someone has accidental success with something - but a
reputation - then as the original "spielendoktor" has it, it becomes
truth by repetition. The hobby is full of turning legends originated
by turning legends that are plain false. One immediately to mind is
that wax will "harden" soft wood for sanding. I suppose, had the
first little pig used some wax to bond that straw house, the wolf
would be a vegetarian today.

Personally, I don't think Michael Jordan, fine player he was, knows
much about jockey shorts that we haven't discovered on our own.



Not Quite what I had in mind. G Up front, I'll say that I enjoy your
posts and I usually learn something from each of them. However, you are
sometimes so abrupt and concise, it may seem to be rudeness. Now, before
we get into a ****ing contest, I have had the same said about me - in
verbal communication. I'm also known to be Brutaly Honest. "Honey, how do
I look?" "Like Tootsie on a bad hair day." WHAP!

The singer, not the song. "Tootsie on a bad hair day." said with a jokey
smile might just make it.

Well said Owen!

I've learned a lot from hanging out here and I read this newsgroup
posts when ever I can.

I too miss some of the old bunch that used to frequent this place,
including Fred, Tony, Lynn, Ruth, and several others.

Bertie




On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:14:38 -0700, Owen Lowe
wrote:

In article ,
Fred Holder wrote:

Thank you Tom and Robert for the support. I and others have somewhat
withdrawn from the group because of those who seem to feel that they
must criticize every post that does not agree with their thinking. I
originally started withdrawing because of a fellow, whose name I've
forgotten, started attacking me on almost every post that I made and
claimed that I was only posting to promote my business. He even began
writing very critical e-mails to me. I believe he was possibly
responsible for others withdrawing from the group.

I echo Tom, Robert and others', enjoyment and appreciation of your
participation here, Fred. (I also noticed a post by Tony Manella the
other day... stick around Tony!) Please don't let the current crop of
individuals distance you again. We lost some fine talent and
well-spoken, friendly folks a couple years ago - at the time you pulled
back too. I still miss Lyn's posts and his in-depth analysis of all the
turning stuff he had - and continue to reread his past posts and More
Woodturning articles when I have a purchase decision.

(For those unfamiliar with what I'm referring to, look up posts by Lyn
Mangiameli on, say, hollowing tools. He would actually try out a half
dozen "systems" and report his likes and dislikes with each. He
approached it as a hands-on evaluation with just a touch of his
science/medical background thrown in.

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things. I simply try
them, if they work, I like to share the information with others.

BINGO! Who cares whether something is grounded with solid scientific
reasoning - if it works for you (the generalized "you") then WOOHOO! -
you found something to aid your turning. If waxing tearout works to get
a better cut, then who cares whether it stiffens or lubricates or makes
the fibers smell good? It works for those who swear by it.

A simple dissenting: "I don't believe it's a stiffening action of the
wax that results in a better cut but I'm glad it works for you" reply is
all that is necessary. Let's keep things civil and, unless it's a life
and death situation, sometimes we can just keep our keyboards quiet when
we disagree. Just smile and let the poor sap believe what he believes
and confine your commentary to more important issues, such as how to
solve our own problems.