I am in the process of building a new woodworking shop. Its a new
24x40 pole barn that will have a 24' x 24' well insulated area that
will need to be heated during Michigan winters. I have not put the
floor (concrete) in yet and wonder if it is worth the cost to put in
radiant floor heat? I have a cousin that will help put in the pipeing
under the floor so I only need to pay for materials. I have a propane
gas tank about 50 feet from the barn. Some questions:

1. Is an open gas flame (from a boiler or furnace) a concern with a
lot of sanding and woodcutting?

2. Should I built a small separate compartment in the workshop to hold
the furnace or boiler to keep the sawdust, etc away from the flame?

3. Is radiant floor heat that much better and that much more
economical than other heating options like a forced air furnace?

4. Should I consider a heating system that doesn't vent into the
workshop to avoid burning dust?

Thanks for any input,
Ted

Ted wrote:
I am in the process of building a new woodworking shop. Its a new
24x40 pole barn that will have a 24' x 24' well insulated area that
will need to be heated during Michigan winters. I have not put the
floor (concrete) in yet and wonder if it is worth the cost to put in
radiant floor heat? I have a cousin that will help put in the pipeing
under the floor so I only need to pay for materials. I have a propane
gas tank about 50 feet from the barn. Some questions:

1. Is an open gas flame (from a boiler or furnace) a concern with a
lot of sanding and woodcutting?


Sure can be (remember the formula: heat+oxygen+fuel=combustion)


2. Should I built a small separate compartment in the workshop to hold
the furnace or boiler to keep the sawdust, etc away from the flame?


Depends (and this applies to #4 as well)on the system you buy. If I'm
not mistaken, the new gas fired furnaces are essentially "closed"
systems, i.e. they draw their combustion air from outside and then vent
the exhaust outside. If you're firing a boiler vs. forced air, your
problem in #1 is non-existent but I would still worry about dust build
up on the unit. If I were doing this I would certainly create a utility
closet to house the boiler - especially since you're dealing with new
construction.


3. Is radiant floor heat that much better and that much more
economical than other heating options like a forced air furnace?


More even heat that's "just there" no dust blowing around when you're
trying to finish a piece. FA might be nice if you were going to install
AC as well but, what the heck, I have a 9600 BTU unit I mounted through
the wall that chills my 24X13 shop down very quickly. You could do the
same if you install radiant heat.


4. Should I consider a heating system that doesn't vent into the
workshop to avoid burning dust?

With a modern furnace you're pretty much assured of that, I think. The
problem arises with forced air heat where you're drawing in the dust and
distributing it via the system. Think of a big fan blowing over your
shoulder as you sand down a piece.

In article .com,
"Ted" wrote:

I am in the process of building a new woodworking shop. Its a new
24x40 pole barn that will have a 24' x 24' well insulated area that
will need to be heated during Michigan winters. I have not put the
floor (concrete) in yet and wonder if it is worth the cost to put in
radiant floor heat?

If the slab has not been poured yet, the answer is _always_ yes, IMHO,
at least for the tubing itself that goes in the slab. Once it becomes a
retrofit job, the answer is often no. Put a separate loop under the area
you are not heating at this time, and it will be easy to hook it up if
you ever change your mind about that... In the meantime, put a thermal
break between the two parts of the slab (heated now and not heated now)
or you'll waste a bunch of heat out in the "unheated area" by conduction
through the slab.

I have a cousin that will help put in the pipeing
under the floor so I only need to pay for materials.

It's easy to do yourself with or without a helpful cousin.

1. Is an open gas flame (from a boiler or furnace) a concern with a
lot of sanding and woodcutting?

Yes. A separately enclosed boiler room with it's own outside entrance is
a nice solution to this, or a "sealed burner" combustion system with
it's own outside air supply. Dust explosions suck, even if they are
generally rare in woodworking shops, so some people feel they are no
concern at all. Solvent fires also suck.

3. Is radiant floor heat that much better and that much more
economical than other heating options like a forced air furnace?

That very much depends. Radiant is not really much more economical for
the same temperature in the shop (if you insulated the same for it as
for other types of heat), but it may (due to qualities like having a
nice warm slab rather than a nasty cold one) make you comfortable at a
lower thermostat setting, which would save a bit. If you do a bad job
insulating the slab, you might burn more heat on radiant - so do a good
job insulating the slab.

If you use the shop regularly, radiant slab is a good setup. If you use
it once a week, it's less of a good deal, since it heats up slowly, and
cools slowly. A system which heats the air rather than the slab can heat
up and cool down more quickly. Some folks set up both, so the radiant
system keeps he shop at at least 45 F, and the other system can quickly
bring the shop to 60 or 70 for short work periods, or the radiant can be
turned up for longer periods of work. Others just learn to think ahead -
if you always use the shop on the weekend, a programmable thermostat can
be set to turn the heat up and down so it's always comfortable on the
weekend.

Not having lots of air currents as with a hot air furnace or even
baseboard hot water is a good thing in a woodshop because it keeps the
random dust relocation down - helpful for finishing, for instance. Also,
the heat delivery takes up no space in the shop itself, and the
equipment is kept warm (and does not get covered with condensate) by
contact with the floor. You also have much less in the way of warm and
cold spots.

If you are so inclined, radiant also works well with solar heat to
supplement the fueled heat, since the temperature of the fluid in the
slab is not so high.

If you're considering under floor heating for a workshop, be very, very
(did I say very?) careful should you decide in the future to drill any
holes in the floor for mounting bolts for heavy machinery Failure to
do so may well result in a few swear words being uttered!

--
Alun Saunders

Alun wrote:

If you're considering under floor heating for a workshop, be very, very
(did I say very?) careful should you decide in the future to drill any
holes in the floor for mounting bolts for heavy machinery Failure to
do so may well result in a few swear words being uttered!

The big problem with in-slap heat is that if you ever break a pipe you have
to rip up the slab. Friend of mine lives in a house that her father (an
architect--see for example Hatcher Square in Savannah) designed that had
in-floor heat. Managed to break a pipe and it turned out to be cheaper to
put in warm-air than to fix the in-floor.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Alun wrote:


If you're considering under floor heating for a workshop, be very, very
(did I say very?) careful should you decide in the future to drill any
holes in the floor for mounting bolts for heavy machinery Failure to
do so may well result in a few swear words being uttered!


The big problem with in-slap heat is that if you ever break a pipe you have
to rip up the slab. Friend of mine lives in a house that her father (an
architect--see for example Hatcher Square in Savannah) designed that had
in-floor heat. Managed to break a pipe and it turned out to be cheaper to
put in warm-air than to fix the in-floor.

Not sure that is as much of a concern as it was fifty years ago when
copper tubing was used exclusively.

My parents built a home with radiant heat in the floor (concrete slab)
provided by a network of copper tubing. Built it in 1952, sold it 1958,
heard that it started leaking in 1961 and the new owners wound up
converting to forced air (not a bad idea since they could also have
central air). Not sure what caused the failure, seems to me it was some
sort of reaction between the copper and the concrete rather than a
literal breakage of the lines.

Current practice is some form of plastic/nylon/last forever material so
other than physical trauma you should be okay. Just watch what you
mount to the floor and how you mount it as Alun wrote.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Alun wrote:

If you're considering under floor heating for a workshop, be very, very
(did I say very?) careful should you decide in the future to drill any
holes in the floor for mounting bolts for heavy machinery Failure to
do so may well result in a few swear words being uttered!

The big problem with in-slap heat is that if you ever break a pipe you
have
to rip up the slab. Friend of mine lives in a house that her father (an
architect--see for example Hatcher Square in Savannah) designed that had
in-floor heat. Managed to break a pipe and it turned out to be cheaper to
put in warm-air than to fix the in-floor.


First, as others have mentioned, are you going to heat it all the time? If
so, insulate and go with floor heat. Insulate, because the heat flows by
conduction better than by convection - into the slab and what's contacting
the slab rather than up in the air to you. If you're going to up the heat
to use, and maintain low otherwise, forced air. Heats you, and you insulate
your feet. You see, the first couple of hours will go into raising the slab
temperature.

There's also another method out there which runs the tubes above the
insulated slab but below the flooring. Saw it on TOH. Might be better.

George wrote:

There's also another method out there which runs the tubes above the
insulated slab but below the flooring. Saw it on TOH. Might be better.

What they usually do here in Europe is to first lay the concrete floor
as per normal. Then a layer of insulating material is laid on top of
that, and then special plastic tiles with pegs that stick upwards,
through which plastic pipes are threaded in a zig-zag fashion. Then a
screed layer is laid on top of that. If localized repairs are necessary,
it's a *relatively* easy matter to chip out the affected area, at least
easier than if it's concrete. Such a construction might not be suited to
a workshop though because the screed layer would probably be too soft.

--
Alun Saunders

On 14 Jul 2005 18:52:07 -0700, "Ted" wrote:

I am in the process of building a new woodworking shop. Its a new
24x40 pole barn that will have a 24' x 24' well insulated area that
will need to be heated during Michigan winters. I have not put the
floor (concrete) in yet and wonder if it is worth the cost to put in
radiant floor heat? I have a cousin that will help put in the pipeing
under the floor so I only need to pay for materials. I have a propane
gas tank about 50 feet from the barn. Some questions:

1. Is an open gas flame (from a boiler or furnace) a concern with a
lot of sanding and woodcutting?

Yes. Ask your local FD.

2. Should I built a small separate compartment in the workshop to hold
the furnace or boiler to keep the sawdust, etc away from the flame?

Yes

3. Is radiant floor heat that much better and that much more
economical than other heating options like a forced air furnace?


Electric heating is expensive.

4. Should I consider a heating system that doesn't vent into the
workshop to avoid burning dust?


Venting to the shop from combustion heating presents some safety
concerns. Electrical heating doesn't need venting but is also $$$.

Thanks for any input,
Ted

Phisherman wrote:

On 14 Jul 2005 18:52:07 -0700, "Ted" wrote:

I am in the process of building a new woodworking shop. Its a new
24x40 pole barn that will have a 24' x 24' well insulated area that
will need to be heated during Michigan winters. I have not put the
floor (concrete) in yet and wonder if it is worth the cost to put in
radiant floor heat? I have a cousin that will help put in the pipeing
under the floor so I only need to pay for materials. I have a propane
gas tank about 50 feet from the barn. Some questions:

1. Is an open gas flame (from a boiler or furnace) a concern with a
lot of sanding and woodcutting?

Yes. Ask your local FD.

2. Should I built a small separate compartment in the workshop to hold
the furnace or boiler to keep the sawdust, etc away from the flame?

Yes

3. Is radiant floor heat that much better and that much more
economical than other heating options like a forced air furnace?


Electric heating is expensive.

Radiant floor heat is usually gas/ or oil/hot water, not electric.


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article .com,
"Ted" wrote:

I am in the process of building a new woodworking shop. Its a new
24x40 pole barn that will have a 24' x 24' well insulated area that
will need to be heated during Michigan winters. I have not put the
floor (concrete)

Insulate under the floor... worst mistake I ever made.

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

Ted,
I built a workshop in my 45 x 54 pole building that is 45 x 12, almost
the same square footage as you are planning. I used 2 x 6 studs and
ceiling rafters and 6 inch fiberglass insulation and used expanding foam
in all the joints. My heat source is a small electric furnace, $1100
installed, that has worked out very well although I do have the some
dust circulation but it's not a big problem (I also installed a dust
collection system) and I buy furnace filters by the case. I set the
thermostat on 50 when I leave and it takes about 10 - 15 minutes to
bring the temp up 70 the next morning. My cost in Jan and Feb are about
$1.50/day here in Kentucky (we have some zero days here). I'm sure
your's will be more in Michigan.

I think the key is insulation and a tight space. I did not insulate the
floor. I also like the flame free enviroment.

If you would like more info as to brand name, btu output let me know.

LB

Ted,
I have a 24 x36 pole barn here in Oregon. I use one of the small
electric oil radiators to keep it warm. On 32 degree days it stays at
about 60. If I have the dust collector running for half of the day (it
is amazing how big the pile of unsanded bowls can get) it gets up to a
balmy 70 by the end of the day. The amount of electricity used is
minimal.
robo hippy

If you're considering under floor heating for a workshop, be very, very
(did I say very?) careful should you decide in the future to drill any
holes in the floor for mounting bolts for heavy machinery Failure to
do so may well result in a few swear words being uttered!

Common practice is to plan your shop first, so you can lay the piping around
any eventual holes drilled in the slab.

The big problem with in-slap heat is that if you ever break a pipe you
have
to rip up the slab. Friend of mine lives in a house that her father (an
architect--see for example Hatcher Square in Savannah) designed that had
in-floor heat. Managed to break a pipe and it turned out to be cheaper to
put in warm-air than to fix the in-floor.

That hasn't been a problem for 20 years. In-slab heating uses a special
plastic tubing with an oxygen barrier. You will also want to get the
matching manifold to balance the system as well as the circulating pump.
Any plumbing supply house that caters to contractors can set you up with
what you need. Although there are dedicated boilers for these systems, most
people use a hot water heater that have inlet and outlet ports just for
heating. Get one of the 96% efficient units. Not only will you save money,
but the flame is contained within a combustion chamber and dust/fumes in the
shop can't reach it. Air for the flame is brought in with a pipe and fumes
are discharged by one, too. Both are plastic and usually co-axial.

While an open flame could be a hazard, it is highly unlikely your shop will
ever get dusty enough or filled with enough combustion vapor to explode,
unless you use a lot of lacquer based adhesives and finishes. What WILL
happen is that hydrocarbon vapor, from varnishes, paints, and OMS, will
cause the combustion chamber in an open flame furnace or water heater to
corrode and fail.

Dan

My husband built a woodworking shop here in northern Minnesota (near the
Canadian border -- so it gets below zero for days at a time) and has radiant
heat in the concrete floor with the hot water tubes and an electric furnace.
He and his friends who work in there think it's the best thing they've
done -- even heat and no dust flying. He has a new furnace with a lot of
bricks to hold the heat and it can keep the shop warm for many hours even
when the off-peak electricity is shut off periodically when it gets very
cold.

never heard of that before i have seen the process done before and the
nice thing about radiant heat is some times concrete contractors can
regulate the cooling of the concrete by pumping water thru it ,if
concrete cures too quickly or too slowly it will not set properly by
having unevenes or worse cracks form and also the thickness matters too
,a couple garages i was in had a nice packed in base for the concrete
,and once the concrete had set even if the line cracked (considering the
regular stuff you can jump on it all day and not crack it) there is a
couple companys that will come out and pump a special sealant under
presssure thru the line to seal all the little leaks that since ,
but it sounds like your friend got screwed on his radiant heat if they
used metal lines they never will last and the concrete they used in a
house on the floors are usually no more than an inch or 2 thick ,unless
you meant in the basement then someone really screwed up the
installation on it really bad .my guess will be that your friend used
his hot water system for heating the floor which is a big no no in
radiant floor heating becuase there is no antifreeze in it at all to
keep it from freezing he should've had a seperate heating system for the
radiant floor heating cause the actual heater is only about 2 gallons
plus what is in the floor system itself ,if he used his hot water heater
to do it thats just waiting for something to go wrong.

A few years ago a friend of mine had gotten ahold of some plastic
fibrous material he had gotten from his one buddy thats in
construction,it had a very high therme rating and he said at the time it
was very expensive but very high r rating about three times or more than
fiberglass ,but he said he could heat the new room with a candle and it
was a big room with very high cathedral ceiling about 15-17 feet to it
highest point and it was nice and toasty and he said his heating bill
went down almost 20 percent .
Wish i could remember what the stuff was called but it was as thin as
external moisture barrier but it had a warning for indoor use only
,but just wanted to say is if you put your money into the right stuff
and get the best insulation you can then the radiant floor heater is all
youll really need and plus the radiant floor heater is easily adaptable
to upgrades of heater units if you need to do so in the future to more
efficient ones every ten -15 years.

badaztek wrote:

never heard of that before i have seen the process done before and the
nice thing about radiant heat is some times concrete contractors can
regulate the cooling of the concrete by pumping water thru it ,if
concrete cures too quickly or too slowly it will not set properly by
having unevenes or worse cracks form and also the thickness matters too
,a couple garages i was in had a nice packed in base for the concrete
,and once the concrete had set even if the line cracked (considering the
regular stuff you can jump on it all day and not crack it) there is a
couple companys that will come out and pump a special sealant under
presssure thru the line to seal all the little leaks that since ,
but it sounds like your friend got screwed on his radiant heat if they
used metal lines they never will last

So what _should_ Frank Lloyd Wright have used in the houses that he designed
with in-floor radiant heat? The new plastics might be OK or might not.
Look kind of thin to me. Maybe you _can_ jump on them. So what? Being
jumped on is not the usual cause of failure. And how much of the flow does
the sealant obstruct and how much does it reduce thermal efficiency?

and the concrete they used in a
house on the floors are usually no more than an inch or 2 thick

Still has to be ripped up to fix the leak.

,unless
you meant in the basement

They don't have basements in Georgia. At least not to speak of.

then someone really screwed up the
installation on it really bad .my guess will be that your friend used
his hot water system for heating the floor which is a big no no in
radiant floor heating becuase there is no antifreeze in it at all to
keep it from freezing he should've had a seperate heating system for the
radiant floor heating cause the actual heater is only about 2 gallons
plus what is in the floor system itself ,if he used his hot water heater
to do it thats just waiting for something to go wrong.

There was only one heating system in the house, and that was the radiant
floor. And I seriously doubt that any professional architect would use a
water heater rather than a proper furnace to provide heat for a house that
he intended to live in.

If it is your contention that in floor radiant heat is so reliable that
fixing it should not be even a consideration, then quite frankly, you're a
damned fool. Anything with moving parts can fail, and anything that water
flows through is eventually going to leak.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)