We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated

Suzanne

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" A
Einstein

Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?

It is efficient, provided it is done properly with the correct insulation
sequence. If you are getting a new boiler, get a condensing type. They will
particularly benefit from the low output temperature required and will
condense like anything, particularly if you have no radiators, or can
arrange mixing valves, to get a return temp of 30C or thereabouts.

Christian.

SC wrote:
we wanted to look at underflooor heating.

Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?
I like the idea as this will be a family room and we have
3 kids under 4, they spend so much time rollling round the
floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated

I'm afraid that every time I have visited someone whose
house had underfloor, I have been very glad to get out
of it! I find it a horrible, very uncomfortable way of
heating. I wouldn't worrk about the children playing on
the floor, use clothes or carpets.


__________________________________________________ ______________
Sent via the PAXemail system at paxemail.com

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:35:35 +0100, "SC" wrote:



Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

There are two common forms of underfloor heating, electric and hot
water. Electric systems tend to be found in older properties (apart
from single room floor warmers) and are generally not liked. They
were often fitted in council properties, badly designed and installed
and arranged to come on at night to use cheap rate electricity so
rooms were always too hot during the day.

Hot water systems are now the most common and are normally cheaper to
run than conventional systems by about 10% because the temperatures
they run at suit condensing boilers well and because room
temperatures can be set a degree or so cooler than with conventional
systems for the same level of comfort.

As far as room comfort is concerned having now had underfloor heating
for 10 years I would be most reluctant to return to any other form of
heating. Whenever surveys of user liking of heating systems are
carried out underfloor heating invariably scores the highest of all
systems.

One thing you will need to bear in mind is that the underfloor heated
area will need its own controls, both to mix water to maintain the
effectiveness of the older parts of the system as others have
explained and to compensate for its thermal mass. The underfloor
heating will need to start heating earlier than the rest of the house
but can be turned down earlier as well. To maintain a pleasant
temperature in our house in the winter between 18:00 and 22:00 the
heating effectively comes on at about 15:00 but goes off at about
19:00.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:35:35 +0100, "SC" wrote:



Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea
as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

There are two common forms of underfloor heating, electric and hot
water. Electric systems tend to be found in older properties (apart
from single room floor warmers) and are generally not liked. They
were often fitted in council properties, badly designed and installed
and arranged to come on at night to use cheap rate electricity so
rooms were always too hot during the day.

Hot water systems are now the most common and are normally cheaper to
run than conventional systems by about 10%
because the temperatures they run at suit
condensing boilers well

Any figures to back up this article of faith? Rads systems can be designed
to get the best from a condensing boiler as well.

and because room temperatures can be set
a degree or so cooler than with conventional
systems for the same level of comfort.

If a house is near permanently occupied then underfloor "can", not always,
work out cheaper to run. But the problem is that they require long heatup
and cool down time, so are left on 24/7 wit a night temperature setback. If
your house occupancy is erratic, you require a fast heatup system, which
underfloor is not.

As far as room comfort is concerned
having now had underfloor heating
for 10 years I would be most reluctant
to return to any other form of
heating.

Comfort depends on the design and controls used. A floor that is designed
to have even heat and expensive controls will perform far, far better than a
cheap system with basic controls.

Whenever surveys of user liking of heating systems are
carried out underfloor heating invariably scores the highest of all
systems.

Link please?

The underfloor heating will need to start
heating earlier than the rest of the house
but can be turned down earlier as well.
To maintain a pleasant temperature in our
house in the winter between 18:00 and 22:00 the
heating effectively comes on at about 15:00
but goes off at about 19:00.

Because of this lag, I know some people who are well ****ed off with
underfloor hearting having a gas fire to fill-in in the warm up gaps.

Underfloor can be fine, but you have to know what you are getting into.



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"SC" wrote in message
...
We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea
as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated

Look at http://www.polyplumb.co.uk and go to their underfloor heating
section. They have dedicated zone control boxes for partial underfloor
heating as you propose. Contact them and they will send all the underfloor
heating brochures. Speedfit do a similar thing.

Make sure the floor you install it in has thick high performing insulation
underneath as you don't want to heat the earth under. The insulation should
be like a tray, coming up at the sides. The tray is filled in with a cement
screed with the side exposed to the same level as the screed, then the final
floor finish is over.

It will work fine from a combi.



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Thanks for that Peter

This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor coverings
with underfloor heating, carpets etc. Surely underfelt would act like an
insulator?

Suzanne

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:35:35 +0100, "SC" wrote:



Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea
as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

There are two common forms of underfloor heating, electric and hot
water. Electric systems tend to be found in older properties (apart
from single room floor warmers) and are generally not liked. They
were often fitted in council properties, badly designed and installed
and arranged to come on at night to use cheap rate electricity so
rooms were always too hot during the day.

Hot water systems are now the most common and are normally cheaper to
run than conventional systems by about 10% because the temperatures
they run at suit condensing boilers well and because room
temperatures can be set a degree or so cooler than with conventional
systems for the same level of comfort.

As far as room comfort is concerned having now had underfloor heating
for 10 years I would be most reluctant to return to any other form of
heating. Whenever surveys of user liking of heating systems are
carried out underfloor heating invariably scores the highest of all
systems.

One thing you will need to bear in mind is that the underfloor heated
area will need its own controls, both to mix water to maintain the
effectiveness of the older parts of the system as others have
explained and to compensate for its thermal mass. The underfloor
heating will need to start heating earlier than the rest of the house
but can be turned down earlier as well. To maintain a pleasant
temperature in our house in the winter between 18:00 and 22:00 the
heating effectively comes on at about 15:00 but goes off at about
19:00.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

SC wrote:

We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...


It is a bit complex to add on, because you need to use somewhat cooler
water for it than for teh rest of teh CH, AND to do it properly iut
needs to be timed a little in advance of normal heating, so you end up
with things like 3 way controllers, (UF/CH/HW) extra valves or pumps and
some form of temp. reduction valve.

On the other hand, if you ar a bit cavalier, you can just lay some
flexible butyl pipe in the screed, and pretend its a huge radiator. Its
a lot bettr than nothing especially if you have other heating n teh kitchen.

See www.poloyplumb.co.uk for lots of ideas on how to do it the (rather)
expensive way.


Any sane thoughts appreciated

Suzanne

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" A
Einstein

jerrybuilt wrote:

SC wrote:

we wanted to look at underflooor heating.


Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?
I like the idea as this will be a family room and we have
3 kids under 4, they spend so much time rollling round the
floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated


I'm afraid that every time I have visited someone whose
house had underfloor, I have been very glad to get out
of it! I find it a horrible, very uncomfortable way of
heating. I wouldn't worrk about the children playing on
the floor, use clothes or carpets.



I have to say I entirely disagree. The warmth is just simply all
pervasive: There are no cold spots and its a delight to walk on with
bare feet.

The scret is to have a lot of pipework in there, and not to run it too hot.



__________________________________________________ ______________
Sent via the PAXemail system at paxemail.com

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
SC wrote:

We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a
dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add
new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas
combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?


Cheaper than rads as a lot less heat loss due to convection - and no
convection draughts.

Freedom to put furniture anywhere, no hot spots - even warmth.

Very much a DIY install - Nu-Heat for example make an add-on pack for adding
underfloor heating to a conservatory, by tapping off existing rad circuit.

Control is different - not on/off, but set back temp, i.e. you set it to go
to for example 10 deg lower when unoccupied rather than off - that way it
only has to bring up from a background temp rather than from cold.
This helps negate the slow response time.

Anybody who has had UFH .... will never go back to rads.

Rick

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
SC wrote:

We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a
dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add
new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas
combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?


Cheaper than rads as a lot less heat loss due to convection - and no
convection draughts.

Freedom to put furniture anywhere, no hot spots - even warmth.

Very much a DIY install - Nu-Heat for example make an add-on pack for
adding
underfloor heating to a conservatory, by tapping off existing rad circuit.

Control is different - not on/off, but set back temp, i.e. you set it to
go
to for example 10 deg lower when unoccupied rather than off - that way it
only has to bring up from a background temp rather than from cold.
This helps negate the slow response time.

Anybody who has had UFH .... will never go back to rads.

That's if its designed well, installed so no cold spots on the floor and
well controlled. If not then they can be very uncomfortable and nighmare to
live with. Having weather compensation helps to alleviate the warm and cold
periods, due to the slow response, when the weather suddenly changes.


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IMM wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

jerrybuilt wrote:


SC wrote:


we wanted to look at underflooor heating.


Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?
I like the idea as this will be a family room and we have
3 kids under 4, they spend so much time rollling round the
floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated


I'm afraid that every time I have visited someone whose
house had underfloor, I have been very glad to get out
of it! I find it a horrible, very uncomfortable way of
heating. I wouldn't worrk about the children playing on
the floor, use clothes or carpets.



I have to say I entirely disagree. The warmth is just simply all
pervasive: There are no cold spots and its a delight to walk on with
bare feet.

The scret is to have a lot of pipework in there, and not to run it too

hot.

The secret is:

- not to have cold spots in the floor.


Yes.

Lots of pipework can give sold spots.


Usual strange language and gibberish from the resident moron.

The trick is to lay planty of pipe in a pattern that alternates warmer
incoming with coooler ougoing. Double wound spirals do this. See
www.polyplumb.co.uk



Santoprene double two-way pipe eliminates cold spots.


And cots a bloody fortune, and is completely unnecessary. Once again IMM
is seduced by plausible sales literature.

When I was self-levelling the floor, I switched on teh UF to get it to
dry faster. The psaces between the pipes were in all cases colder than
the pipes - no matter whether on the flow or return side.

Conclusion. Double pipe is a waste of money. Close laying of a lot of
pipe is what gets you the most even heat.


Also what
configuration of pipework layout matters.


Yep. Running pipes up the walls does not heat your floor.

One does assume teh abuilty to read the polyplumb website, which has a lot

of general rarher useful hints on how to achieve uniform heating as well

as some product specific stuff youy can ignore if you want.




- Have it well controlled. This may be a pump with a modulating mixer valve
for each zone . Some zones may be slaved to others.

- Having it at low temp does of course help.

Underfloor heating is not to everyone's taste. The prime reason for having
it is to eliminate rads.




********. Its a good reason, but not necessarily the prime one.
Underfloor heating IS a radiotor - a floor sized one. Because the
heating is uniform and low, there are no real convection currents and
cold low level draughts. It gives the feeling of a mild summers day,
rather than a cold winters one, if the house is adequately insulated.

The big drawback is the lag. From utter cold (been away from Xmas sort
of cold, with no heating on) it make take almost a day to get up to
temperature. Answer is to leave running at 'frost stat' settings.
Conversely it stays warmer longer - in screed designs anyway - so you
may end up losing heat whilst you are out, that you didn't want to. Its
not 'instant' heat. Its slow gentle warmth. There is nowhere to hang
your wet socks either. In general winter use it seems to want an hour or
so lead time from the rest of the heating if you are using a mixire of
rads towel rals and UF, hence the 3 channel controller. I also find the
fluctuations and hysteresis of the thermostat more detactable with UF -
perhaps because it IS so even.

By far and away the nicest form of heating I havbe ever had, and I wish
I could have done it under the wood floors upstairs, but mostly they
had'nt the depth for it.





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SC wrote:

Thanks for that Peter

This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor coverings
with underfloor heating, carpets etc. Surely underfelt would act like an
insulator?



Yes, you can BUT unless you insulate DOWNWARDS as well, you will lose
more heat downwards than upwards if you see what I mean. and also in
order to get THROUGH the carpet etc you have to run at a higher floor
temperature than e.g. slates or tiles - or even laminate. This reduces
the efficiency a fair bit and needs to be thought about in the design.


Ideal is stone, tiles or laminate with thin rugs. Or wood boards. But
beware warping! Parquet is probably as good as it gets!


The key is to have the downwards insulation ten timje or more better
than teh upwards, so that you only lose 10% downwards. Well thtas a very
simplistic view, but serves to illustrate the point.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

jerrybuilt wrote:


SC wrote:


we wanted to look at underflooor heating.


Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run?
I like the idea as this will be a family room and we have
3 kids under 4, they spend so much time rollling round the
floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated


I'm afraid that every time I have visited someone whose
house had underfloor, I have been very glad to get out
of it! I find it a horrible, very uncomfortable way of
heating. I wouldn't worrk about the children playing on
the floor, use clothes or carpets.



I have to say I entirely disagree. The warmth is just simply all
pervasive: There are no cold spots and its a delight to walk on with
bare feet.

The scret is to have a lot of pipework in there,
and not to run it too hot.

The secret is:

- not to have cold spots in the floor.

Yes.

You are getting it.

Lots of pipework can give cold spots.

Usual strange language and gibberish
from the resident moron.

You know nothing of UFH.

The trick is to lay planty of pipe in a pattern that alternates warmer
incoming with coooler ougoing. Double wound spirals do this. See
www.polyplumb.co.uk

You are are learning.

Santoprene double two-way pipe eliminates cold spots.

And cots a bloody fortune, and is
completely unnecessary. Once again IMM
is seduced by plausible sales literature.

Santoprene works wonderfully. The only problem is that there is no oxygen
barrier. Once again you display ignorance.

When I was self-levelling the floor,
I switched on teh UF to get it to
dry faster.

Never do that!!!

The psaces between the pipes were
in all cases colder than
the pipes - no matter whether on the
flow or return side.

Conclusion. Double pipe is a waste of money.

What experience do you have of this? He means counterflow two-way
santoprene pipe. There is also three-way santoprene. It works brilliantly.

Close laying of a lot of
pipe is what gets you the most even heat.

Using a counterflow spiral is the best, but more difficult to lay,
arrangement.

Also what
configuration of pipework layout matters.


Yep. Running pipes up the walls does
not heat your floor.

Failed!

One does assume teh abuilty to read
the polyplumb website, which has a lot

of general rarher useful hints on how
to achieve uniform heating as well

as some product specific stuff youy can ignore if you want.

Ployplumb offer a very basic system, which is not recommended.

- Have it well controlled. This may be a pump with a modulating mixer
valve
for each zone . Some zones may be slaved to others.

- Having it at low temp does of course help.

Underfloor heating is not to everyone's taste. The prime reason for
having
it is to eliminate rads.

********.

Do you mean you want rads?

Its a good reason, but not necessarily the prime one.

Failed again! It is.

Underfloor heating IS a radiotor - a floor
sized one.

You don't say.

Because the heating is uniform

If it is designed and installed correctly.

and low, there are no real convection currents

What!!! failed again!

and cold low level draughts. It gives the feeling of a mild summers day,
rather than a cold winters one, if the house is adequately insulated.

The big drawback is the lag.

Good, encouraging.

From utter cold (been away from Xmas sort
of cold, with no heating on) it make take almost
a day to get up to temperature.

A big negative indeed.

Answer is to leave running at 'frost stat' settings.
Conversely it stays warmer longer - in screed
designs anyway - so you may end up losing
heat whilst you are out, that you didn't want to.

??? Uh!

Its not 'instant' heat. Its slow gentle warmth.

Good, encouraging.

There is nowhere to hang
your wet socks either.

A big disadvantage of course.

In general winter use it seems to want an hour or
so lead time from the rest of the heating if you
are using a mixire of rads towel rals and UF,
hence the 3 channel controller. I also find the
fluctuations and hysteresis of the thermostat
more detactable with UF - perhaps because
it IS so even.

Uh!! ?? Do you eamn yoiu feel cold spots? This is the problem. You need
proper PID controllers to get a proper even temp from UFH.

By far and away the nicest form of heating
I havbe ever had,

I find that amazing , as yours appear naff.

and I wish I could have done it under the
wood floors upstairs, but mostly they
had'nt the depth for it.



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On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:25:19 +0100, "SC" wrote:

This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor coverings
with underfloor heating, carpets etc.

More or less, some types of flooring don't like the raised
temperature but any modern flooring material will state if its
suitable for UF heating.

Surely underfelt would act like an insulator?

Yes it does - but it isn't a very good one and in practice makes no
noticeable difference. We have carpets, tiles and wood on various
floors in the house and all work. All have been tested and approved
for heat by the cats.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:03:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
.. .

Hot water systems are now the most common and are normally cheaper to
run than conventional systems by about 10%
because the temperatures they run at suit
condensing boilers well

Any figures to back up this article of faith? Rads systems can be
designed
to get the best from a condensing boiler as well.

I presume you are familiar with the works of Cattell in the area of
hot cold perception and the later works of Hart,Blumberg et al. If
heat comes from a floor level source the body will feel comfortable
at a temperature about 2 deg C lower than it will if heated by
radiant heat alone and about 3-4 deg lower than if heated by hot air.

Forced air and underfloor can mean the stat can be turned down a few
degrees. Both about the same. Forced air is highly responsive, unlike
underfloor heating.

Ever heard of Mean Radiant Temperature?

Assuming similar insulation levels
(easily achieved by any competent
installer) it follows that an underfloor
heating system will maintain
equivalent comfort levels at air temperatures
2 to 4 degrees lower
than other heating systems.

Forced air and underfloor about the same. Insulation levels? In the
building fabric?

Whilst it is possible, given big enough radiators, to achieve
similar boiler efficiencies with radiators it isn't possible to
overcome this basic perception of comfort at a lower temperature.

It is. Install perimeter skirting heating. Room temps can be lowered too.

Underfloor heating can be run 2 to 4 degrees lower in room
temperature than any other system to maintain equivalent levels of
comfort. This accounts for the well established lower running costs
of underfloor systems compared with other heating methods.

Only for all day occupation. The erratic lifestyles of modern people means
underfloor is unsuitable for many in running costs and warm up.

If a house is near permanently occupied
then underfloor "can", not always,
work out cheaper to run. But the problem
is that they require long heatup
and cool down time, so are left on 24/7
with a night temperature setback. If
your house occupancy is erratic, you
require a fast heatup system, which
underfloor is not.

If you only use the house at weekends,
and then only at short notice,
you would have a point.

In today's instant society, of instant communication and next day
deliveries, underfloor will not suit most people.

The lag of the system we have is about 3 to
5 hours and in practice this causes no
significant problems.

It suits your lifestyle. That is the prime point.

As far as room comfort is concerned
having now had underfloor heating
for 10 years I would be most reluctant
to return to any other form of
heating.

Comfort depends on the design and
controls used. A floor that is designed
to have even heat and expensive controls
will perform far, far better than a
cheap system with basic controls.

This of course is absolute nonsense.

You haven't a clue.

I think it is correct to say
you have never lived in a house
with underfloor heating

I have. Electric. The control naff on-off stats and made it uncomfortable.
Yet is did have an even heated floor.

and gain most
of your "knowledge" from manufacturers
pamphlets is it not?

No a pro in the game sonny boy. Listen and learn!

The most basic competent design will
give even heat throughout the
floor.

Not so. The reason why Santoprene pipe was invented in Canada was that
running a spiral of plastic pipe caused uneven floor temps. The floor would
be far hotter on the flow side and at time very cool on the return after it
released its heat to the floor.

Whilst the controls must be carefully
planned they do not need to be complicated
and certainly not expensive. The thermal lag
of the system cannot be overcome by fancy
controls

It can be greatly minimised. You know little of control. Even our snotty
uni man mentioned the cold spots in on-off stat switching.

and makes it easy to design a simple but effective system assuming you
understand the
underlying physics.

Whenever surveys of user liking of heating systems are
carried out underfloor heating invariably scores the highest of all
systems.

Link please?

A number of articles in BSEE have covered
this over the years, I assume you subscribe
to that publication and have access to them.

I have access to most HVAC mags and browse them all.

A fairly recent survey in "Build It"
magazine came up with a result
which showed some 95% of people
with (water) underfloor heating were
satisfied with them, about 80 % with
radiator systems and some 50%
with blown air systems were equally
satisfied with them and 30 % with
night storage systems liked them.

"Build IT". Ever browsed that mag? Full of UFH adds. They are pandering to
their advertisers. The best system is forced air ventilation, which can
humidify very easily and give constant fresh air. No wet heating system can
do that. It can de-humidify, but a small chiller has to be installed.

I will need to find you the issue
number as I do not have it immediately
to hand.

Forget it mate.

Having had all the systems listed above
in one or more of the 20 odd
houses I have lived in courtesy of
HMG my experience is in
accordance with those results.

You have "never" lived in properly designed and installed up to date forced
air and vent system. Fresh air all the time and silent. Yu experiences are
limited.

Because of this lag, I know some
people who are well ****ed off with
underfloor hearting having a gas fire
to fill-in in the warm up gaps.

I'm sure there are some people of
your acquaintance incapable of the
mental arithmetic necessary to work
out you need to put the heating
to go on 3 hours before you need it.

That is the problem!!!

A plug-in electric fire or
wheeled Calor Gas heater is certainly more appropriate in that
situation.

Wheeled calor gas. Are you mad? You spend a fortune on a heating system and
you have to wheel in a box to heat the place. Juts put in a heating sytem
that doesn't have the response of the Queen Mary's steering. Then all is
fine.


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"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:25:19 +0100, "SC" wrote:

This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor coverings
with underfloor heating, carpets etc.

More or less, some types of flooring don't like the raised
temperature but any modern flooring material will state if its
suitable for UF heating.

Surely underfelt would act like an insulator?

Yes it does - but it isn't a very good one and in practice makes no
noticeable difference.

Except an even longer war up period.


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IMM wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:25:19 +0100, "SC" wrote:


This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor coverings
with underfloor heating, carpets etc.

More or less, some types of flooring don't like the raised
temperature but any modern flooring material will state if its
suitable for UF heating.


Surely underfelt would act like an insulator?

Yes it does - but it isn't a very good one and in practice makes no
noticeable difference.


Except an even longer war up period.


No. Don't confuse insulation with thermal inertia. Get an education i
instead.




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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:25:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Peter Parry" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:03:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


Forced air and underfloor can mean the stat can be turned down a few
degrees. Both about the same.

On the contrary, to quote from http://meanradianttemperature.com/

"Good Thermal Design Tips (extract)

Use hydronic radiant floors

Heat people, not air"


Richard Kadulski wrote the following on MRT in the Renewable Energy
Policy Project :-

"A simple formula has been developed that allows normal comfort level
of a room to be calculated by adding the two primary heating
components: air temperature and mean radiant temperature (average
room surface temperature).

The formula is: air temperature ( F) + mean radiant
temperature ( F) = 140 ( F).

For example, with a conventional forced warm air heating system we
can maintain comfortable conditions at an air temperature of about 72
deg F (22 C) with a mean radiant temperature of 68 F (72 + 68 =
140).

With a radiant heating system, comfort is achieved at 68 F air
temperature if the mean radiant temperature is 72 F (68 + 72 = 140)".

With blown air systems the radiant temperature of all surfaces must
always be equal to or below the air temperature and for equivalent
levels of comfort higher, not lower, temperatures are required.

Ever heard of Mean Radiant Temperature?

I would have thought you would have known that was the subject of the
references I quoted.

Whilst it is possible, given big enough radiators, to achieve
similar boiler efficiencies with radiators it isn't possible to
overcome this basic perception of comfort at a lower temperature.

It is. Install perimeter skirting heating. Room temps can be lowered too.

It still doesn't give you the large radiant surface.

Underfloor heating can be run 2 to 4 degrees lower in room
temperature than any other system to maintain equivalent levels of
comfort. This accounts for the well established lower running costs
of underfloor systems compared with other heating methods.

Only for all day occupation. The erratic lifestyles of modern people means
underfloor is unsuitable for many in running costs and warm up.

I don't know of many people whose "erratic lifestyle" means they have
in advance no idea whatsoever of the time of day they will be in or
out. Equally I don't know of many who have remotely controlled
heating controls or only switch the heating on when they get in.

For those few who don't know whether they will be in or out at any
time at all and who habitually leave the house unheated until they
get in and then want a very rapid response then underfloor heating
has little attraction. The running costs as I am sure you are aware
will still not differ markedly.

In today's instant society, of instant communication and next day
deliveries, underfloor will not suit most people.

I hadn't thought about the influence of next day deliveries on
heating systems I must admit.

I think it is correct to say
you have never lived in a house
with underfloor heating

I have. Electric.

Ah.

and gain most
of your "knowledge" from manufacturers
pamphlets is it not?

No a pro in the game sonny boy.

Plumber?

Listen and learn!

One waits. I have a feeling it will be a long wait however.

The most basic competent design will
give even heat throughout the
floor.

Not so. The reason why Santoprene pipe was invented in Canada was that
running a spiral of plastic pipe caused uneven floor temps. The floor would
be far hotter on the flow side and at time very cool on the return after it
released its heat to the floor.

For some reason that doesn't happen in mine or any other I have seen.
Might possibly have something to do with the way the pipe runs were
planned.

Whilst the controls must be carefully
planned they do not need to be complicated
and certainly not expensive. The thermal lag
of the system cannot be overcome by fancy
controls

It can be greatly minimised.

Could you explain the physics behind this assertion please?

A number of articles in BSEE have covered
this over the years, I assume you subscribe
to that publication and have access to them.

I have access to most HVAC mags and browse them all.

You will be able to read the articles then.

"Build IT". Ever browsed that mag? Full of UFH adds.

Possibly because it is popular with people more concerned about
quality than price?

They are pandering to their advertisers.

Are you suggesting the results were falsified?

You have "never" lived in properly designed and installed up to date forced
air and vent system. Fresh air all the time and silent. Yu experiences are
limited.

Possibly, but certainly greater than yours.

As has been explained to you before I have had some experience of a
very modern system near here with all the bells and whistles. It has
now been removed at considerable expense because the owner found it
to be far too uncomfortable.

A plug-in electric fire or
wheeled Calor Gas heater is certainly more appropriate in that
situation.

Wheeled calor gas. Are you mad? You spend a fortune on a heating system and
you have to wheel in a box to heat the place.

As usual you rather missed the point.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:26:55 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Except an even longer war up period.

Exactly the same amount of blood, body parts and general combat
detritus can be found on the kitchen (tiled) and lounge (carpeted)
floors so I doubt this is the case.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...

Richard Kadulski wrote the following on MRT in the Renewable Energy
Policy Project :-

"A simple formula has been developed that allows normal comfort level
of a room to be calculated by adding the two primary heating
components: air temperature and mean radiant temperature (average
room surface temperature).

I have one of his books. He attempts to simply explain MRT ina few paras
and fails and gives that formula you posted. He is a green architect and
attempts to be an expert on HVAC, but he does highlight pros and cons of
UFH, exactly as I have.



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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I wasn't design/installed properly.



That does seem to summarise it....

ROFL, ROLF. My, my. Just like Last of The Summers Wine. ROFL!


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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is what
is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.


--
John

"John Armstrong" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is
what
is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.

Then be in cold room then. No accounting for odd tastes.



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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:25:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On the contrary, to quote from http://meanradianttemperature.com/

The musing as an old unqualified American. Not very accurate.

He has a Bachelor of Science in mechanical engineering and majored in
HVAC. Your qualifications are what exactly?

With blown air systems the radiant temperature of all surfaces must
always be equal to or below the air temperature and for equivalent
levels of comfort higher, not lower, temperatures are required.

This is not accurate.

If you think it is inaccurate please explain how the surfaces in a
room can have a temperature greater than the air temperature with a
blown air system.

The air temp will eventually heat the surrounding surfaces

To never more than the air temperature and for exterior walls usually
less.

and the MRT will rise. Insulation helps a lot in MRT.

I don't think you really understand it at all. How does insulation
help?

BTW, I have read a total load of balls by many people on MRT.

I can certainly see that.

As long as the floor is well insulated this does matter that much.

I agree, it does matter quite a lot doesn't it.

Most people I know are in that category, and I was in that for years on end.
I needed heat ASAP when I walked in, not having the heating system
needlessly on just in case. That is wasteful.

I see, you have no idea if you will be returning to the house at all,
if it will be at 10:00, 13:00, 17:00, 20:00. Each day is totally new
- some you are in all day - others out day and night. I suppose
being an emergency plumber does have its down side.

For those few who don't know whether they will be in or out at any
time at all and who habitually leave the house unheated until they
get in and then want a very rapid response then underfloor heating
has little attraction. The running costs as I am sure you are aware
will still not differ markedly.

It will. If you don't know if you will be in at 6.00 or 10:00 and you time
the heating to be up to temp at 6:00, then you will pay more in heating
bills. A waste.

Do the sums. The difference is not terrible great.

Plumber?

I don't do drains or gutters. I don't work with my hands either.

That doesn't leave much else to make a living with.

It is best to run
two coils of pipe ina normal spiral. Have one the flow and the other the
return. Counter-flow. More pipe, so "may" have lower temps.

If I understood what you were trying to say I might be able to
comment.

Could you explain the physics behind this assertion please?

Nothing to do with physics. I is to with common sense.

Oh dear.

An exceptionally
slow system like underfloor required accurate modulating control, !and"
weather compensation.

Only in catalogue land. The great advantage of slow reaction systems
is the controls can be really simple _if_ the design is right in the
first place. If on the other hand the designer doesn't believe in
physics then I agree more complex controls will compensate to some
extent for the basic design errors they will make.

As long as users understand the inadequacies of UFH , then it is fine. But
don't be surprised if you have to open windows on some days because it is
too hot, or turn on the gas fire for an hour or so.

I have never had to add to the heating but have certainly had one or
two days in the year where we have opened a window or two. It
doesn't detract from the overall comfort of the system for the
remaining 363 days of the year.

It is popular with peopel who buld their own homes. UFH is a fad at the
mo,

It s been a "fad" for the last 15 years at least. (actually the last
2000 odd to be more precise)

Possibly, but certainly greater than yours.

Balls!!! Dream on. You have lived in army houses. Now the army don't put
state-of-the-art system in their homes. You have experience many bad
systems.

And you have experienced ?

As has been explained to you before
I have had some experience of a
very modern system near here with
all the bells and whistles. It has
now been removed at considerable
expense because the owner found it
to be far too uncomfortable.

I wasn't design/installed properly.

An assortment of far better qualified people than you including
engineers (not fitters) from the manufacturers have said it is well
designed and installed.

As usual you rather missed the point.

What point was that? You were on about heating the house when the UFH
can't.

I was suggesting a more appropriate heating system for people who
cannot add 3 to another number and come up with the correct answer.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:44:26 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



At a snotty uni?

Anywhere - as long as you get one.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:07:20 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"John Armstrong" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is
what
is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.

Then be in cold room then. No accounting for odd tastes.


20 deg or so is fine for me. Living in a room hot enough to cause heat
stroke is definitely an odd taste.


--
John

"SC" wrote
We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea
as
this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated

Suzanne

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" A
Einstein


Phew I've started World War III!!
But it has brought out a lot of good points.

To summerise: People like underfloor heating, but it needs to be put down
well.
Issues to consider: are heatup time lag (the changeable Autumn/Spring
weather point was good), avoid hotspots, good underfloor insulation,
separate controller at boiler, no radiator to hang your wet socks (sorry
this is important to me).
Good things a a comfortable heat at lower temps, warm bare toes,
radiators not hogging wall space, cosy warm floor for kiddies to roll on,
overall lower cost in my situation.

My situation is: this is for a large L-shaped room 20'x20' which will be
kitchen/ dining/ living space. Ventilation/ heating are very important as
we are combining a cooking and living environment. I only work mornings,
home with after school childcare and quite often have to be up at night with
wains, so always on heating is fine. The back door will open into a sunroom
part of this area - draughts when the door is opened, plus condensation from
kitchen activity on sunroom windows.

My experience was of being brought up in a 200yr old farmhouse with only an
Rayburn Royal for heat, or open the airing cupboard in the bathroom to take
the chill of an enamal bath. Consequently I can stand too much heat, and
especially heat convection/hot air heaters. Turns me into a heat hogging
zombie with red legs.

What I think maybe good for us will be a separate controller for UF to the
combi (located just off this room) and a good control for settings. I will
not run the UF round the cooking and dishwasher/ sink area as I would
overheat. In addition I will run a slim radiator round under the windows in
the sunroom as this will be the coldest area, most prone to condensation,
and also give me somewhere to warm socks towels etc.

Whadda think??

NO scrapping boys

Ta Suzanne

"John Armstrong" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is
what
is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.

John

Don't get a job in Iraq then. Did you see they had 50 C??? How could you
hack that? It's 22C here tonight and I'm boiled.

"Peter Parry" wrote
| I needed heat ASAP when I walked in, not having the heating system
| needlessly on just in case. That is wasteful.
| I see, you have no idea if you will be returning to the house at all,
| if it will be at 10:00, 13:00, 17:00, 20:00. Each day is totally new
| - some you are in all day - others out day and night. I suppose
| being an emergency plumber does have its down side.

But an emergency plumber could afford to run the heating all day, the rates
they charge.

Owain

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"John Armstrong" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is
what
is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.

Then be in cold room then. No accounting for odd tastes.

You're missing the point. Body temperature is 37C ish. Comfortable room
temperature is between 18 and 21C. I know this because I work in a large
open plan office and sit beside the control. There is a constant battle
between different people jacking the heat and turning it down. So much so
the management brought in some bozo specialist to sort the whole thing out.
Hasn't made a blind bit of difference. The bit I sit at is colder and that
suits me just fine, especially since I have been pregnant 2 and quarter
years in the last 5.

You know, thats the warmest kind of heating you can have. Another entity
hatching inside you. And you boyos can't argue on that....

Suzanne

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Peter Parry" wrote
| I needed heat ASAP when I walked in, not having the heating system
| needlessly on just in case. That is wasteful.
| I see, you have no idea if you will be returning to the house at all,
| if it will be at 10:00, 13:00, 17:00, 20:00. Each day is totally new
| - some you are in all day - others out day and night. I suppose
| being an emergency plumber does have its down side.

But an emergency plumber could afford to run the heating all day, the
rates
they charge.

One certainly could. I couldn't.


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"SC" wrote in message
...

"John Armstrong" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is
what
is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.

John

Don't get a job in Iraq then. Did you see they had 50 C??? How could you
hack that? It's 22C here tonight and I'm boiled.

I lived over there for a while. The dry heat makes it bearable. You get
used to it.


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On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:16:15 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Phew I've started World War III!!

No just one know-it-all amateur pilock putting his oar in.

So why do you do it?

.

avoid hotspots,

Yes. Use ****erflow spirals

Interesting concept.





No need for the rad if using UFH. Is there a cheaper way of warming socks?

Yep. Use the Aga. It does great toasted bacon butties as well....




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:33:35 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Peter Parry" wrote in message


He has a Bachelor of Science in mechanical engineering and majored in
HVAC. Your qualifications are what exactly?

greater than that.

Go on - don't be shy - tell us.

With blown air systems the radiant temperature of all surfaces must
always be equal to or below the air temperature and for equivalent
levels of comfort higher, not lower, temperatures are required.

This is not accurate.

If you think it is inaccurate please explain

It is not accurate in his assumption comfort levels.

So you agree that with blown air systems the surface temperature of
interior surfaces will always be equal to or below air temperature?

The body is always
cooling. It is the rate of cooling that makes us feel hot or cold. Some
surfaces in line of sight of the body extract heat from the body more than
others. The surface type and colour also make a difference. Temperature of
the surface is just one aspect of MRT. If you read both authors, this is
said in a round about way.

Mean radiant temperature is simply the area weighted mean
temperature of all the objects surrounding the body. It will be
positive when surrounding objects are warmer than the average skin
temperature and negative when they are colder. It follows that hot
air systems, which cannot produce surface temperatures higher than
the air temperature will therefore require higher, not lower,
temperatures than radiant systems to achieve similar levels of
comfort. Radiant heat has a high MRT. Hot air has a lower MRT, it is
inescapable.

You can't. You don't understand MRT, and few actually do. It is regarded
as one of those things invented to explain something.

It is simply basic physics and physiology, nothing magic or
complicated about it.

Only in catalogue land. The great
advantage of slow reaction systems
is the controls can be really
simple _if_ the design is right in the
first place.

Nonsense!!! Do your physics make the concrete slab heat up faster or cool
faster?

no - which is why fancy controls are not usually needed.

Stop prattling on about physics you fool. No designer look at his O levels
physics book when designing a heating system.

If he doesn't understand the physics of heat loss and gain how then
does he design it?

Because your house is occupied most of the time.

Is it?

It s been a "fad" for the last 15 years
at least. (actually the last
2000 odd to be more precise)

It is a fad. The number installed systems at the mo is in single %age
figures. When the building boom really starts it will be insignificant in
installed systems.

Of course - because developers want the cheapest quickest and
simplest systems they can stuff in their little boxes. Quality is
not an issue.

Balls!!! Dream on. You have lived in army
houses.

Most of my houses were not army houses.

And you have experienced ?

Design and installation of 1000s of them.

and never lived with the consequences of any, like most plumbers.

I wasn't design/installed properly.

An assortment of far better qualified
people than you

They are not better qualified or experienced than me.

If you care to let us know your qualifications and experience I'll
compare them for you. I'm interested to know you consider yourself
to be better experienced and qualified in these matters than the
manufacturers senior designer is.

including engineers (not fitters) from
the manufacturers have said it is well
designed and installed.

Balls!! If it was designed and installed well the user would love it.

It was, he doesn't.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:25:19 +0100, "SC" wrote:

This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor coverings
with underfloor heating, carpets etc.

More or less, some types of flooring don't like the raised
temperature but any modern flooring material will state if its
suitable for UF heating.

Surely underfelt would act like an insulator?

Yes it does - but it isn't a very good one and in practice makes no
noticeable difference. We have carpets, tiles and wood on various
floors in the house and all work. All have been tested and approved
for heat by the cats.

Ah the best test of all, the cat test. Just looking at an old video of a
holiday in S Ireland on a farm with stables. A flowerpot with soil sitting
on a sunny window had seven kittens piled into it. Every so often one
would struggle from the bottom of the heap and pile back on top. V cute.

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:55:06 +0100, "SC" wrote:


Ah the best test of all, the cat test.

It can make them very paranoid. Everywhere they sit gets nice and
warm. Cats as you know have to be in the warmest place so this
confuses them greatly - what if somewhere else is warmer? They won't
know until they sit on it so this entails setting up an extensive
research programme of sitting everywhere in turn.

They usually then settle for the one place you always trip over them
of course.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

IMM wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote:


"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...


On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:25:19 +0100, "SC" wrote:



This may be a dumb question but can you use all types of floor

coverings

with underfloor heating, carpets etc.


More or less, some types of flooring don't like the raised
temperature but any modern flooring material will state if its
suitable for UF heating.



Surely underfelt would act like an insulator?


Yes it does - but it isn't a very good one and in practice makes no
noticeable difference.


Except an even longer war up period.


No. Don't confuse insulation with thermal inertia. Get an education i
instead.


At a snotty uni?



You lack the attitude or aptitude to get in .



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IMM wrote:

"John Armstrong" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:16:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


On warm up,
forced air initially heats the air which then heats the body, which is

what

is needed.

I would rather not be in a room where the air is hotter than my body
temperature thank you very much.


Then be in cold room then. No accounting for odd tastes.


Hmm. Once again a total failure to actually grasp the point being made.





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SC wrote:

"SC" wrote

We are doing major changes to our kitchen to make it open plan to a dining
area and living room, and we are adding a sunroom. As we need to add new
floors we wanted to look at underflooor heating. We will have a gas combi
boiler system.
Any personal experience out there? Is it costly to run? I like the idea

as

this will be a family room and we have 3 kids under 4, they spend so much
time rollling round the floor I thought it may be a good idea to warm the
floor...

Any sane thoughts appreciated

Suzanne

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" A
Einstein



Phew I've started World War III!!
But it has brought out a lot of good points.

To summerise: People like underfloor heating, but it needs to be put down
well.
Issues to consider: are heatup time lag (the changeable Autumn/Spring
weather point was good), avoid hotspots, good underfloor insulation,
separate controller at boiler, no radiator to hang your wet socks (sorry
this is important to me).
Good things a a comfortable heat at lower temps, warm bare toes,
radiators not hogging wall space, cosy warm floor for kiddies to roll on,
overall lower cost in my situation.

My situation is: this is for a large L-shaped room 20'x20' which will be
kitchen/ dining/ living space. Ventilation/ heating are very important as
we are combining a cooking and living environment. I only work mornings,
home with after school childcare and quite often have to be up at night with
wains, so always on heating is fine. The back door will open into a sunroom
part of this area - draughts when the door is opened, plus condensation from
kitchen activity on sunroom windows.

My experience was of being brought up in a 200yr old farmhouse with only an
Rayburn Royal for heat, or open the airing cupboard in the bathroom to take
the chill of an enamal bath. Consequently I can stand too much heat, and
especially heat convection/hot air heaters. Turns me into a heat hogging
zombie with red legs.

What I think maybe good for us will be a separate controller for UF to the
combi (located just off this room) and a good control for settings. I will
not run the UF round the cooking and dishwasher/ sink area as I would
overheat. In addition I will run a slim radiator round under the windows in
the sunroom as this will be the coldest area, most prone to condensation,
and also give me somewhere to warm socks towels etc.

Whadda think??


I think, unlike IMM, you have grasped the essentials.

Go for it.



NO scrapping boys

Ta Suzanne