"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:26:02 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:

IMM wrote:

May as well remove the roof. run up the bricks and replace the
roof
with a
warm roof made of SIP panels. This does not have supports so a
clear
area
tat can be easily used as an extension.

Can all be done in a day.

On which planet?

With a _very_ large work crew, and all the prep work ready, perhaps?

Yep. I have seen it done, even in parts of Little Middle England too.

I bet those Huf Haus builders could do it in a day!

They would do a block of flats in a day.

"Owain" wrote in message ...
"N. Thornton" wrote
| Let me take a wild tack here, something I've always wondered.
| Usable area depends on available height, which is often deficient
| or at best tight. If one added a foot onto the brick wall height
| it would make a great difference to what one could do up
| there. So... here goes: is it possible to jack up the entire
| roof structure - or perhaps one side at a time - and build
| up the brickwork course by course?

It is possible to jack up the entire roof structure (NOT one side at a time,
or it will go squint) and rebuild underneath and this is not unusual in
renovation work. However the costs and difficulty in doing this are only
worthwhile where it would be extremely expensive or impractical to rebuilt
the roof. You might not get any extra height, because the joists holding up
the ceiling of the storey below are often an integral part of the roof
structure, preventing spreading, so you couldn't remove them.

I kinda forgotted that

You would also
have the difficulty of matching the existing wall finish or having a band of
different colour wall all round the house.

I guess if matching bricks could not be found, complementary bricks
could be used with a little decorative patterning. Then it forms a
mildly decorative band along the top.

And because you would be building
above the existing ridge line you would need full planning permission.

For a loft conversion, the structural work involved in modifying the roof
mean that it's as easy to rebuild the roof with alterations as it would be
to lift it; if it can't be rebuilt it probably won't be much use after
lifting.

What can sometimes be done, where the ceilign joists aren't part of the roof
structure or their function can be replaced, is drop the ceiling level in
the first floor bedrooms a couple of ft to gain extra headroom in the loft.

So how could the roof structure be modified to not need to use the
joists? The only structure I can think of would be an A shaped one,
which would require stronger woodwork and lose head height. As well as
be less stable.

Now I see why its not very practical.


Regards, NT

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:52:33 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:26:02 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:

IMM wrote:

May as well remove the roof. run up the bricks and replace the roof
with a
warm roof made of SIP panels. This does not have supports so a clear
area
tat can be easily used as an extension.

Can all be done in a day.

On which planet?

With a _very_ large work crew, and all the prep work ready, perhaps?

Yep. I have seen it done, even in parts of Little Middle England too.

I bet those Huf Haus builders could do it in a day!

MM


They huf and they puf and they blow your house down.... :-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Just starting a loft conversion my self - if you are a semi competent
diyer consider this.
Planning should not be a problem for a bungalow.
New joists can be placed on existing wall plate or hung from wall plate
- I'm using the new composite I beam wooden joists - go to Travis Perkins
etc and they design and quote for you - all accepted by the Building
Control Officer - also lightweight and straight so can be handeled by one
person.
Insulation will be a large part of the cost - needs to be 0.3 for
refurbishment. Mines going to cost 4-5k (proably 15k if done by a builder).
Neil

"Niel A. Farrow" wrote in message
...
Just starting a loft conversion my self - if you are a semi competent
diyer consider this.
Planning should not be a problem for a bungalow.
New joists can be placed on existing wall plate or hung from wall plate
- I'm using the new composite I beam wooden joists - go to Travis Perkins
etc and they design and quote for you - all accepted by the Building
Control Officer - also lightweight and straight so can be handeled by one
person.
Insulation will be a large part of the cost - needs to be 0.3 for
refurbishment. Mines going to cost 4-5k (proably 15k if done by a
builder).
Neil

Thanks - this is just the kind of information I was looking for!
Will go to our local Travis P. and see if they have details.

Cheers
Dave R

"Niel A. Farrow" wrote in message
...
Just starting a loft conversion my self - if you are a semi competent
diyer consider this.
Planning should not be a problem for a bungalow.
New joists can be placed on existing wall plate or hung from wall plate
- I'm using the new composite I beam wooden joists - go to Travis Perkins
etc and they design and quote for you - all accepted by the Building
Control Officer - also lightweight and straight so can be handeled by one
person.

To prevent impact sound travelling through, have the ceiling on the ground
floor on the existing joists and the floor above on the TJI "I" beams. Do
not have the "I" beams touch the existing joists or the ceiling below. Fill
the void with Rockwool bats tight up against the "I" beams.

Insulation will be a large part of the
cost - needs to be 0.3 for
refurbishment.

Best go way over building regs ininsulation. The levels are to increase in a
few years so bets get to those levels at least. You are saving 10K so extra
on insulation is nothing.

Mines going to cost
4-5k (proably 15k if done by a builder).
Neil

Read this report. It give the insulation levels for various countries, etc.
It virtually castigates the British way of doing things.

http://www.ukace.org/pubs/reportfo/BuildIgn.pdf

In article ,
David W.E. Roberts wrote:

"Niel A. Farrow" wrote in message
...
Just starting a loft conversion my self - if you are a semi competent
diyer consider this.
Planning should not be a problem for a bungalow.
New joists can be placed on existing wall plate or hung from wall plate
- I'm using the new composite I beam wooden joists - go to Travis Perkins
etc and they design and quote for you - all accepted by the Building
Control Officer - also lightweight and straight so can be handeled by one
person.
Insulation will be a large part of the cost - needs to be 0.3 for
refurbishment. Mines going to cost 4-5k (proably 15k if done by a
builder).
Neil

Thanks - this is just the kind of information I was looking for!
Will go to our local Travis P. and see if they have details.

There are lots of other considerations such as tieing the wall plate to
new joists, if the old ceiling joists are removed, insulating walls etc. etc.
Neil

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




Read this report. It give the insulation levels for various countries, etc.
It virtually castigates the British way of doing things.

http://www.ukace.org/pubs/reportfo/BuildIgn.pdf


From this paper:

"The Association for the Conservation of Energy (ACE) is a lobby
organization which also carries out policy research on energy
conservation."

"Membership of ACE is limited to twenty-four UK based companies which
have substantial interest in energy conservation equipment and
services. Current members include controls manufacturers, energy
service companies, and manufacturers and distributors of insulation
materials."


Not exactly impartial or without vested interest.......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:42:28 +0000 (UTC), a particular chimpanzee
named (Niel A. Farrow) randomly hit the
keyboard and produced:

New joists can be placed on existing wall plate or hung from wall plate
- I'm using the new composite I beam wooden joists - go to Travis Perkins
etc and they design and quote for you - all accepted by the Building
Control Officer - also lightweight and straight so can be handeled by one
person.

Bear in mind that these type of joists have their limitations; looking
at the literature
(http://www.apa-europe.org/Languages/...sts/A725UK.pdf), the
minimum depth is over 240mm, which causes problems in loft conversions
where headroom is usually at a premium. AIUI they can't be chamfered
nor can they can't be simply supported by resting on a wallplate, they
have to be either hung from proprietary joist hangers, built-in or
noggined. Both of which situations are more likely to arise in loft
conversions where the joists have to be inserted between the existing
ceiling joists on top of the existing wallplate under the existing
roofing felt.
--
Hugo Nebula
'What you have to ask yourself is,"if no-one on the internet wants
a piece of this, just how far from the pack have you strayed?"'

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Best go way over building regs ininsulation. The levels are to increase in a
few years so bets get to those levels at least.

If they keep on increasing, we will eventually be buying blocks of
insulation, not houses...

When I was a lad there was ice on the INSIDE of the windows in winter.

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Best go way over building regs ininsulation. The levels are to increase
in a
few years so bets get to those levels at least.

If they keep on increasing, we will eventually be buying blocks of
insulation, not houses...

When I was a lad there was ice on the INSIDE of the windows in winter.

Same here. I miss watching the crystals grow, like feathers or flowers ...
and pressing a warm penny (a proper penny) on the patterns (like fractals)
to make a peephole.

We do still get ice on the inside of the single glazed windows of our old
caravans, in winter. We solved that by clipping woolen car blankets to the
OUTSIDE of the windows overnight and we can still have the windows open a
little.

Mary

MM

Mike Mitchell wrote:


When I was a lad there was ice on the INSIDE of the windows in winter.

MM

You had windows? You were lucky . . .

(Apologies to Monty Python)

In article ,
Nick Brooks wrote:
When I was a lad there was ice on the INSIDE of the windows in winter.

You had windows? You were lucky . . .

Oh, we had windows. Glass, now...

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Nick Brooks wrote:
When I was a lad there was ice on the INSIDE of the windows in winter.

You had windows? You were lucky . . .

Oh, we had windows. Glass, now...

At least the ice will have stopped the winter winds.

Mary

Hugo Nebula wrote:
Bear in mind that these type of joists have their limitations....

minimum depth is over 240mm, which causes problems in loft conversions
where headroom is usually at a premium. AIUI they can't be chamfered
nor can they can't be simply supported by resting on a wallplate, they

There might be a plan C....

conversions where the joists have to be inserted between the existing
ceiling joists on top of the existing wallplate under the existing
roofing felt.

The new joists may be able to go perpendicular & under the existing joists.
Loft headroom is maintained at the expense of first floor headroom, of
course a new ceiling is also required. This route seems to work quite well
in standard Victorian / Edwardian terraces at low material cost although
arguably greater disruption.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

In article ,
Hugo Nebula wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:42:28 +0000 (UTC), a particular chimpanzee
named (Niel A. Farrow) randomly hit the
keyboard and produced:

New joists can be placed on existing wall plate or hung from wall plate
- I'm using the new composite I beam wooden joists - go to Travis Perkins
etc and they design and quote for you - all accepted by the Building
Control Officer - also lightweight and straight so can be handeled by one
person.

Bear in mind that these type of joists have their limitations; looking
at the literature
(http://www.apa-europe.org/Languages/...sts/A725UK.pdf), the
minimum depth is over 240mm, which causes problems in loft conversions
where headroom is usually at a premium. AIUI they can't be chamfered
nor can they can't be simply supported by resting on a wallplate, they
have to be either hung from proprietary joist hangers, built-in or
noggined. Both of which situations are more likely to arise in loft
conversions where the joists have to be inserted between the existing
ceiling joists on top of the existing wallplate under the existing
roofing felt.

Mine will be 9" deep so hanging from the 3" wall plate I loose 6" height
from the rooms below (ceilings are dropping, lath and plaster needs to
come down anyway). However, they will be flush with the wall plate so that
when I remove the old ceiling joists I gain 3". These joists are also
straight, don't warp, can be set at 600mm centres, have knock outs for
cables and pipes, and come in lengths up to 45 feet?. Being much lighter
than solid wood they can be handled by one person. To get them you
take in your rough plans which are sent out to the firm that supplies
them (Travis Perkins do it in house) who design the floor and produce a
laminated plan which is accepted by Building Control. They are more
expensive but they do have many advantages.
Neil

IMM wrote:

To prevent impact sound travelling through, have the ceiling on the ground
floor on the existing joists and the floor above on the TJI "I" beams. Do
not have the "I" beams touch the existing joists or the ceiling below. Fill
the void with Rockwool bats tight up against the "I" beams.

Nice trick if you can do it. What I found was that to insert the new
floor joists, I needed to cut away tie beams that run perpendicular to
the original joists. These were typically placed in the middle of the
span of the longer ceiling joists to give lateral support and also to
spread the load of the ceiling over several adjacent beams.

To stop the ceilings sagging when you cut through the ties you need to
replicate the function of these beams. The usual way to do this is to
add noggins between the new joists that can be fixed to the old ceiling
joists to brace them. You also need to make sure that you strap each
ceiling joist to something solid before you take out the tie beam, and
until you have fixed it to the noggin.

The down side of doing this is you now have a point of contact between
the floor and ceiling joists.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Best go way over building regs ininsulation. The levels are to increase
in a
few years so bets get to those levels at least.

If they keep on increasing, we will eventually be buying blocks of
insulation, not houses...

Exactly. That is what SIP panels are. Insulation sandwiched between OSB
boards. They are strong enough to form the structure of a house. So the
insulation holds up the house.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

To prevent impact sound travelling through, have the ceiling on the
ground
floor on the existing joists and the floor above on the TJI "I" beams.
Do
not have the "I" beams touch the existing joists or the ceiling below.
Fill
the void with Rockwool bats tight up against the "I" beams.

Nice trick if you can do it. What I found was that to insert the new
floor joists, I needed to cut away tie beams that run perpendicular to
the original joists. These were typically placed in the middle of the
span of the longer ceiling joists to give lateral support and also to
spread the load of the ceiling over several adjacent beams.

To stop the ceilings sagging when you cut through the ties you need to
replicate the function of these beams. The usual way to do this is to
add noggins between the new joists that can be fixed to the old ceiling
joists to brace them. You also need to make sure that you strap each
ceiling joist to something solid before you take out the tie beam, and
until you have fixed it to the noggin.

The down side of doing this is you now have a point of contact between
the floor and ceiling joists.

If the existing joists are only holding up the ceiling in the extension,
then they don't need strutting.

IMM wrote:

The down side of doing this is you now have a point of contact between
the floor and ceiling joists.


If the existing joists are only holding up the ceiling in the extension,
then they don't need strutting.

Actually they do (or did in our case) - for two reasons: Firstly if you
remove them then chances are you will sustain damage to the ceiling
below - because they will sag over time (even with the ties they had
already sagged a couple of inches in the centre of the span over the years.

Secondly, the BCO would insist they were there, are hence would not pass
the floor structure without.

If the existing joists were short enough (under 3m say) you may then get
away with removing the ties.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , IMM
writes
the floor and ceiling joists.

If the existing joists are only holding up the ceiling in the extension,
then they don't need strutting.


But they may well have a binder........
--
mark

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




Read this report. It give the insulation levels for various countries,
etc.
It virtually castigates the British way of doing things.

http://www.ukace.org/pubs/reportfo/BuildIgn.pdf


From this paper:

"The Association for the Conservation of Energy (ACE) is a lobby
organization which also carries out policy research on energy
conservation."

"Membership of ACE is limited to twenty-four UK based companies which
have substantial interest in energy conservation equipment and
services. Current members include controls manufacturers, energy
service companies, and manufacturers and distributors of insulation
materials."


Not exactly impartial or without vested interest.......

It gives indisputable facts and compares the UK to others. The Uk is
abysmal.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




Read this report. It give the insulation levels for various countries,
etc.
It virtually castigates the British way of doing things.

http://www.ukace.org/pubs/reportfo/BuildIgn.pdf


From this paper:

"The Association for the Conservation of Energy (ACE) is a lobby
organization which also carries out policy research on energy
conservation."

"Membership of ACE is limited to twenty-four UK based companies which
have substantial interest in energy conservation equipment and
services. Current members include controls manufacturers, energy
service companies, and manufacturers and distributors of insulation
materials."


Not exactly impartial or without vested interest.......

It gives indisputable facts and compares the UK to others. The Uk is
abysmal.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Not exactly impartial or without vested interest.......

It gives indisputable facts and compares the UK to others. The Uk is
abysmal.

Are those the same 'indisputable facts' you so often use in your posts?

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:23:44 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:14:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




Read this report. It give the insulation levels for various countries,
etc.
It virtually castigates the British way of doing things.

http://www.ukace.org/pubs/reportfo/BuildIgn.pdf


From this paper:

"The Association for the Conservation of Energy (ACE) is a lobby
organization which also carries out policy research on energy
conservation."

"Membership of ACE is limited to twenty-four UK based companies which
have substantial interest in energy conservation equipment and
services. Current members include controls manufacturers, energy
service companies, and manufacturers and distributors of insulation
materials."


Not exactly impartial or without vested interest.......

It gives indisputable facts and compares the UK to others. The Uk is
abysmal.


When somebody has a vested interest, "facts" are never indisputable
and are certainly selected to make the case for the interested party.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

When somebody has a vested interest, "facts" are never indisputable
and are certainly selected to make the case for the interested party.

A kind of eco "dodgy dossier" then... perhaps there should be an inquiry ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:02:21 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

When somebody has a vested interest, "facts" are never indisputable
and are certainly selected to make the case for the interested party.

A kind of eco "dodgy dossier" then... perhaps there should be an inquiry ;-)

Naturally.... and of course it won't be anybody's fault......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl