I am looking at converting my loft (3 bed semi) into a bedroom. I
know about all the building regs issues, & intend to do the job
properly with a full-plans building regs submission. The problem is
that the property has a hip-roof with quite a shallow pitch, so that
the maximum distance from the top of the existing bedroom ceiling
joists to the ridge plate is only about 2 metres, as it stands at the
moment the useable area of the room will be so small as to make it not
worth converting. Would it be possible to lower the existing bedroom
ceilings to create more room in the loft, and/or install dormer
windows at the back. The problem(!!!) with the dormer windows idea is
that there are three large purlins running round the loft space which
would be in the way. Would it be possible to remove the purlin at the
back and replace it with some othe form of support for the roof? Has
anybody done a loft conversion with these issues, or should I just
give up the plan all together?

Thanks in advance,
Chris.

Chris Allmark wrote:
I am looking at converting my loft (3 bed semi) into a bedroom. I
know about all the building regs issues, & intend to do the job
properly with a full-plans building regs submission. The problem is
that the property has a hip-roof with quite a shallow pitch, so that
the maximum distance from the top of the existing bedroom ceiling
joists to the ridge plate is only about 2 metres, as it stands at the
moment the useable area of the room will be so small as to make it not
worth converting. Would it be possible to lower the existing bedroom
ceilings to create more room in the loft, and/or install dormer
windows at the back. The problem(!!!) with the dormer windows idea is
that there are three large purlins running round the loft space which
would be in the way. Would it be possible to remove the purlin at the
back and replace it with some othe form of support for the roof? Has
anybody done a loft conversion with these issues, or should I just
give up the plan all together?

After doing all that it almost sounds like you'd be better with a new roof
instead.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

Chris Allmark wrote:
the maximum distance from the top of the existing bedroom ceiling
joists to the ridge plate is only about 2 metres, as it stands at the
moment the useable area of the room will be so small as to make it not
worth converting. Would it be possible to lower the existing bedroom
ceilings to create more room in the loft, and/or install dormer

Considering each problem has a £££ solution, this may work out as an
expensive conversion.
The floors in the loft would be about 120mm higher than the existing level
as your existing ceiling joists are likely to be a lot smaller than the ones
required to support a floor. Installing 220mm joists lower down is a good
solution and one commonly done on properties in this 1900s terrace with
almost 3m room heights.

The dormer is a sensible option to create usable space, and a couple of well
placed steels can solve most purlin problems.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

Chris Allmark wrote:

I am looking at converting my loft (3 bed semi) into a bedroom. I
know about all the building regs issues, & intend to do the job
properly with a full-plans building regs submission. The problem is
that the property has a hip-roof with quite a shallow pitch, so that
the maximum distance from the top of the existing bedroom ceiling
joists to the ridge plate is only about 2 metres, as it stands at the
moment the useable area of the room will be so small as to make it not
worth converting. Would it be possible to lower the existing bedroom
ceilings to create more room in the loft, and/or install dormer
windows at the back. The problem(!!!) with the dormer windows idea is
that there are three large purlins running round the loft space which
would be in the way. Would it be possible to remove the purlin at the
back and replace it with some othe form of support for the roof? Has
anybody done a loft conversion with these issues, or should I just
give up the plan all together?

I am just about to embark on a similar conversion - although I have a
little more headroom under the ridge beam.

To get any real floor space you would need to convert the hipped roof to
a gable end, and then stick a full width dormer on the back.

Having the hip away, and the rear dormer added, will get rid of two of
the purlins for you. It is normal to build a dwarf internal wall to the
front of the property (usually approx one meter high - that will likely
coincide with the front purlin - thus hiding that.

The only major issue you will need to address is the available height
(or lack of it). The new floor level will add 6 or 7 inches to the
existing floor height - meaning a ceiling height of only 6' by the
sounds of it. Sounds a bit low to me. How high are the ceilings in the
rooms below?


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

James Hart wrote:

Chris Allmark wrote:

I am looking at converting my loft (3 bed semi) into a bedroom. I
know about all the building regs issues, & intend to do the job
properly with a full-plans building regs submission. The problem is
that the property has a hip-roof with quite a shallow pitch, so that
the maximum distance from the top of the existing bedroom ceiling
joists to the ridge plate is only about 2 metres, as it stands at the
moment the useable area of the room will be so small as to make it not
worth converting. Would it be possible to lower the existing bedroom
ceilings to create more room in the loft, and/or install dormer
windows at the back. The problem(!!!) with the dormer windows idea is
that there are three large purlins running round the loft space which
would be in the way. Would it be possible to remove the purlin at the
back and replace it with some othe form of support for the roof? Has
anybody done a loft conversion with these issues, or should I just
give up the plan all together?


After doing all that it almost sounds like you'd be better with a new roof
instead.



I agree. Strip teh roof, upgrade the celing joist, and build a new one a
bit higher with dormers. Buildin reghs otherwise will limit where the
staircase etc can go so muh there will be nothing left to use.

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The ceiling height of the
existing bedrooms is around 2.5m, so it would be possible to lower
these by 30cm or so. As regards changing the roof from a hip to a
gable - would that require planning permission as well as the building
regs? If the purlins were removed where would the steels have to be
placed ..... this all sounds like it is going to be v.costly and
slightly beyond the scope of a diy project !!!

"Chris Allmark" wrote in message
om...
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The ceiling height of the
existing bedrooms is around 2.5m, so it would be possible to lower
these by 30cm or so. As regards changing the roof from a hip to a
gable - would that require planning permission as well as the building
regs?

Almost cetainly.

If the purlins were removed where would the steels have to be
placed ..... this all sounds like it is going to be v.costly and
slightly beyond the scope of a diy project !!!

You will certainly need the services of a structural engineer to satisfy the
BCO that the work will be safe.

Peter Crosland wrote:

"Chris Allmark" wrote in message
om...

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The ceiling height of the
existing bedrooms is around 2.5m, so it would be possible to lower
these by 30cm or so. As regards changing the roof from a hip to a
gable - would that require planning permission as well as the building
regs?


Almost cetainly.

I was pleasantly surprised to find out that you don't!

You can have a dormer at the back, and the gable wall conversion, and
velux type windows to the front all without planning permission. The
only time you will need PP is if you want to stick a dormer on the front
as well.

If the purlins were removed where would the steels have to be

placed ..... this all sounds like it is going to be v.costly and
slightly beyond the scope of a diy project !!!

Depending on the size of the place there is probably not that much need
for steel work. The gable end and dormer obviously no longer have need
of a purlin, and the one on the front can be extended such that the end
left flopping about it taken to the new gable wall and hung from that.

It would be normal to put a RSJ/large timber beam in across the front of
the existing loft to which the new floor joists will then be attached
via joist hangers - but that would limit the amount you could lower the
floor level even by "stealing" space from the rooms below. At the rear
the new floor joists would be hung from the rear wall.

You will certainly need the services of a structural engineer to satisfy the
BCO that the work will be safe.

A good architect may also be able to draw up the plans and do the calcs
required.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Peter Crosland" wrote
| "Chris Allmark" wrote
| Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The ceiling height
| of the existing bedrooms is around 2.5m, so it would be possible
| to lower these by 30cm or so.

AFAIK there is no minimum headroom requirement for rooms but there *is* for
stairs, so you might not be able to bring your stairs up close under a
slopey bit of roof.

| As regards changing the roof from a hip to a gable - would
| that require planning permission as well as the building
| regs?
| Almost cetainly.

And is quite likely to be refused as the OP is in a semi, and the planners
are likely to be unhappy about changing the shape of one side but not the
other.

Owain

Owain wrote:

| As regards changing the roof from a hip to a gable - would
| that require planning permission as well as the building
| regs?

| Almost cetainly.

And is quite likely to be refused as the OP is in a semi, and the planners
are likely to be unhappy about changing the shape of one side but not the
other.

I think it depends on the area you're in. I've just done exactly this -
a hip to gable conversion - with no problems at all from Harrow council.
My architect, however, told that if I'd have been in Brent or Ealing -
neighbouring councils - he would have been most suprised if planning
permission had been granted. On the downside though, they did insist
that the back wall of the dormer was 100cm up the roofline, and that the
edge of the dormer near the gable end was brought inwards 100cm as well.

Regards
Paul

Owain wrote:

"Peter Crosland" wrote
| "Chris Allmark" wrote
| Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The ceiling height
| of the existing bedrooms is around 2.5m, so it would be possible
| to lower these by 30cm or so.

AFAIK there is no minimum headroom requirement for rooms



There is.
about 2.2m although its relaxable to an extent in lof conversions.

but there *is* for
stairs, so you might not be able to bring your stairs up close under a
slopey bit of roof.



Correct, tho agian loft conversions have slightly relaxed sets.


| As regards changing the roof from a hip to a gable - would
| that require planning permission as well as the building
| regs?
| Almost cetainly.

And is quite likely to be refused as the OP is in a semi, and the planners
are likely to be unhappy about changing the shape of one side but not the
other.

Owain

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

but there *is* for
stairs, so you might not be able to bring your stairs up close under a
slopey bit of roof.



Correct, tho agian loft conversions have slightly relaxed sets.

1.9m at the centre of the stair rings a bell, can be less at the edges
of the stair.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15 Feb 2004 11:54:03 -0800, a particular chimpanzee named
(Chris Allmark) randomly hit the keyboard
and produced:

I am looking at converting my loft (3 bed semi) into a bedroom.

A hipped roof wants to push the walls out as load is added from above
(wind, snow, etc). This is normally restrained by the ceiling joists
forming a tie from one side to the other at wall plate level, the
purlins and (hopefully) angle ties at the feet of the hips. By
removing the ceiling joists and installing floor joists, the natural
triangulation is removed. Further removing the purlin to install
dormers will create an 'unbalanced' roof.

None of these things are impossible to overcome, but will require the
advice of a structural engineer. As mentioned in another post, your
best bet may be to extend the side to form a gable. IANAPlanner, but
it will v. probably require permission.
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:29:15 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named The
Natural Philosopher randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Owain wrote:

AFAIK there is no minimum headroom requirement for rooms

There is.

There is no minimum headroom requirement in the Building Regulations
(except that for stairs and landings) and hasn't been for at least 20
years now.
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".

Hugo Nebula wrote:

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:29:15 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named The
Natural Philosopher randomly hit the keyboard and produced:


Owain wrote:


AFAIK there is no minimum headroom requirement for rooms


There is.


There is no minimum headroom requirement in the Building Regulations
(except that for stairs and landings) and hasn't been for at least 20
years now.



Mmm. Then why did my architect go nuts about making sure I had 2.2m
height rooms throughout?.

Certainly you have to have rooms atleast 1.75 m tall,

to satisfy e.g. trickle ventilation that requires some

part of the vent to be above 1.75m from floor level...


...perhaps you are right, in that as long as your landing is 6 feet tall,
and your doorways not much less, you can have a 1 inch high room,
provided its not equipped with electrical sockets (450mmm minimum
height) windows (mimum dimension for fire exit) trickle ventilation (min
height) etc etc.

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 11:46:22 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named The
Natural Philosopher randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

..perhaps you are right, in that as long as your landing is 6 feet tall,
and your doorways not much less, you can have a 1 inch high room,
provided its not equipped with electrical sockets (450mmm minimum
height) windows (mimum dimension for fire exit) trickle ventilation (min
height) etc etc.

Correct. Your one inch high room could have ventilation via a
mechanical ventilation system and your stair enclosure could be fitted
with fire doors on the ground and first floor removing the need for
external windows, and in any material alteration (such as a loft
conversion) there are no requirements relating to the height of
sockets.
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".