"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
But they still have clean water by other means, whether it is from well,
spring or stream.

Living without mains electricity would be fine if you had a generator,
or
hydro plant.

Electricity isn't essential. If it were we wouldn't be here.

I never claimed otherwise. (Leaving aside electrical impulses in the
nervous
system...)

You can have too many of those too :-(

Mary

Christian.

"Vera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:34:31 +0000, Kieran Mansley
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:12:31 +0000, Vera wrote:

Try giving up clean water...

Quite a few places around where I was brought up (rural Yorkshire) have no
mains water, and they manage just fine.

Try it in Hackney

I wouldn't try anything in Hackney.

That's not fair, I've never been to Hackney, I apologise unreservedly.

Mary

"Vera" wrote in message
...



How about having just pure drinking water metered? It would be expensive
of
course ... but worthwhile.


If you meant that as a troll or a joke I apologise but if not...

Certainly not as a troll, not a joke either, I think it's always worth
thinking about alternatives which aren't obvious. Devil's advocate if you
like.

That's a great idea to keep the rich healthy and reduce the numbers of
the poor. Think about it again.

You're not clear. Do you mean think about your previous sentence? That's
obvious. If you mean think about my question, I have thought about it again.
I can't see any drawbacks.

The rich - whoever they are - aren't always healthy and the poor - whoever
they are - seem to be able to afford things which aren't healthy.

And since we are ruled by New Labour Our Glorious Leader will ensure that
pure drinking water will be affordable for the poor - won't he?

Mary

"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...

snip deja vu

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
But they still have clean water by other means, whether it is from
well,
spring or stream.

Living without mains electricity would be fine if you had a generator,
or
hydro plant.

Electricity isn't essential. If it were we wouldn't be here.

I never claimed otherwise. (Leaving aside electrical impulses in the
nervous
system...)

.... which if I recall my lessons correctly are actually
chemical reactions involving Potassium and Sodium Ions
permeating across inter-cellular membranes - which we
'perceive as 'electrical activity' using our oscilloscopes.
It's like saying Lightening is Sound-impulses when all you
can perceive is Thunder.

--

Brian

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Vera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:35:52 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Vera" wrote in message

Why should metered water be any different from metered gas,
electricity,
telephone -- or cabbages at Tesco for that matter?

We can live without gas, electricity and the telephone.

I wonder how you'd feel if they were witdrawn?

It'd be dreadful to lose electricity. I could easily do without gas.
The telephone could go as long as I had electricity.

Try giving up clean water...

I have done. Animals and Man have done for most of Time, some still do.

The only use for clean water which could be considered *essential* is for
drinking. I could do without elecricity or gas, my life would be
different,
that's all.

How about having just pure drinking water metered? It would be expensive
of
course ... but worthwhile.

How about utilising the Milkman-network to deliver
_free_ potable water in containers -as much as the
household needs. Then utilising the water distribution
pipery to deliver a non-potable but 'clean' water
supply for washing, garden-irrigation, etc.

--

Brian

"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...


Quite. They don't feel the need to wash cars, water gardens, fill
paddling
pools, flush lavatories - especially all done with purified drinking
water.

Mary


Normally I find myself agreeing with what you say, Mary. For once I don't
think I do. Purifying water does not so far I know use a lot of energy.
Bacteria do all the work. The energy is only needed to turn the spray bars
and do some pumping. I think that water is so central and essential that
it
should be sold as cheaply as possible without profit. I was on a Chamber
of
Commerce commitee when the whole shebang was being privatised. There were
only two of us who had doubts about it. I could not see what benefit there
was. If profits have to be distributed then prices would go up. Efficiency
in private companies is often poor. Councils generally ran water plants
well.

As so it has come to pass. We are now made to feel bad about watering our
gardens, giving our kids a bit of fun in the summer and *flushing the
bog*.
Oh tempera, oh mores!

Just as with rail, water should be nationalised. The whole privatisation
idea is a disaster and this lot of industrial lap-dogs are worse than the
Tories. At least the Tories could smell a rat from their mates and knew
that
they were only doing it to make a buck. This lot of preachers don't know
their a**es from their apices.

What's needed is to stop wasting water. It should be recycled through
multiple purifiers rather than piped down to the sea and thrown away. Yes,
we are short of rain in some parts of this country but by re-use we could
all have all we wanted.

I was interested by the comment about meters and resale. Meters are yet
another family-unfriendly device. I won't have one because I have a large
family-type house and don't want to put people off with a meter. I chuckle
when I hear people congratulating themselves on the savings they've made.
Just wait to see what impact there will be on the price of the house.

It's only anecdotal, but; Our Water Board ^W Company did a
no-cost optional change from Rates ~ Metered-charging
a few years ago. It's very easy to see which households
opted for the change as the inspection-covers are different
sizes. Guy down the road, ten houses away, changed his.
House went on the market, at unbelievable high cost,
the four-bedroomed family house went for the full asking-price
within four days on the market.

From memory we're paying about a pound a ton for water.
Seems more fair than "because your heridament has a rateable
value of £XXX we'll charge you £xxx * fudgefactor for
water - whether you use it or not"

--

Brian

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
But they still have clean water by other means, whether it is from
well,
spring or stream.

Living without mains electricity would be fine if you had a generator,
or
hydro plant.

Electricity isn't essential. If it were we wouldn't be here.

I never claimed otherwise. (Leaving aside electrical impulses in the
nervous
system...)

.... which if I recall my lessons correctly are actually
chemical reactions involving Potassium and Sodium Ions
permeating across inter-cellular membranes - which we
'perceive as 'electrical activity' using our oscilloscopes.
It's like saying Lightening is Sound-impulses when all you
can perceive is Thunder.

Tell that to epileptics.

Mary

--

Brian

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...



Try giving up clean water...

I have done. Animals and Man have done for most of Time, some still do.

The only use for clean water which could be considered *essential* is for
drinking. I could do without elecricity or gas, my life would be
different,
that's all.

How about having just pure drinking water metered? It would be expensive
of
course ... but worthwhile.

How about utilising the Milkman-network to deliver
_free_ potable water in containers -as much as the
household needs. Then utilising the water distribution
pipery to deliver a non-potable but 'clean' water
supply for washing, garden-irrigation, etc.

That's an excellent idea - or wold be if there was still a nation-wide
milkman network :-( It could be revived. When I shopped in supermarkets I ws
absolutely amazed at the shelf space given to bottled water. It suggests
that few people drink tap water. Needless to say, I do.

In the late 1980s or early 1990s a bottled water company DID use the network
to distribute water. I wouldn't have known about it except that I worked for
a professional photographer who did some publicity shots - with my hand and
white overall cuff playing the milkman.

My breath was also in some bubbles for a Boots bath product advert ... but
I'm fairly modest about my modelling career ...

Back to water, some years ago there was also a bottled water club - along
the lines of wine clubs. Wonder what happened to that?

Mary

Mary

--

Brian

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...


From memory we're paying about a pound a ton for water.
Seems more fair than "because your heridament has a rateable
value of £XXX we'll charge you £xxx * fudgefactor for
water - whether you use it or not"

Is that the Plain English Campaign translation?

Mary

--

Brian

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:08:27 +0000, Vera wrote:

On 14 Mar 2005 07:47:17 -0800, wrote:


Vera wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:54:08 +0000, chris French
wrote:



I am sure you are wrong once the whole country is metered.

I just hate the idea that one day, some people will not be able to
afford clean, fresh drinking water and that WILL happen once the whole
country is metered. I know I am tilting at windmills but I will never
have a water meter until I am forced to.

Surely paying £50/year for metered water. Which is cost for a modest
single consumer. Has got to be more affordable than a flat rate fixed fee
of typically £200/year (or more).

There are already people who can't afford water, making the water charges
related to consumption gives them the possibility being sparing, but
probably won't make the slightest difference.

Since the water companies are obligated to get people on to metering, and
they want to do the blocks of flats last (where the savings for the
consumer would be vast) we can expect that increasingly better incentives
to go for metering will emerge in the next few years.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Vera wrote:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:35:52 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Vera" wrote in message

Why should metered water be any different from metered gas, electricity,
telephone -- or cabbages at Tesco for that matter?

We can live without gas, electricity and the telephone.

I wonder how you'd feel if they were witdrawn?


It'd be dreadful to lose electricity. I could easily do without gas.
The telephone could go as long as I had electricity.

Try giving up clean water...

You pay for food that is equally necessary.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Since the water companies are obligated to get people on to metering,

I wouldn't dream of challenging you, Ed, but isn't the above because of
environmental considerations and not consumer costs? I suspect so. I hope
so.

Mary

"Vera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:52:01 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Since the water companies are obligated to get people on to metering,

I wouldn't dream of challenging you, Ed, but isn't the above because of
environmental considerations and not consumer costs? I suspect so. I hope
so.


I doubt it...

Why?

What other reason can you suggest?

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:
Electricity isn't essential. If it were we wouldn't be here.

If it wasn't for electrically powered incubator I almost certainly
wouldn't be here.

Should I have died as a baby Mary ;-)

Owain

In message , Mary
Fisher writes

"chris French" wrote in message

We are buying a house in Cambridgeshire, meter or not really wasn't an
issue for us (though as it happens, most did seem to have meters) I'm sure
there are few people who would be deterred, but I think the impact is
limited.

I'm sorry you're leaving the broad acres, Chris.

Me too.

Will you be telling us
where your new abode is?


All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village nearish
to Huntingdon.
--
Chris French, Leeds

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:52:01 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Since the water companies are obligated to get people on to metering,

I wouldn't dream of challenging you, Ed, but isn't the above because of
environmental considerations and not consumer costs? I suspect so. I hope
so.

Yes I believe that the offwat or government target to go for metering is
essentially environmental... but the suppliers have a diffeent agenda.

In the short term the costs of installing metering are being carried by
the water Cos. They are offering free or highly subsidized meter
installs. [1] The Cos are doing this (I presume) because

a) They otherwise they won't meet their targets and will suffer some
consequence/fine/knuckle rapping/ in the future.
b) They know with increasing population (and per capita water usage?) they
won't be able to meet demand (without increasing the unit charge for
water) so they are looking for a long term method to put the brakes on
consumption.

Currently the pricing structure is such that almost everyone (even quite
large families) will benefit being on a meter, unless they are into
lawn sprinklers and garden hoses. This (I presume) is not an act of
charity on the part of the supplier but a necessity. It is possible to put
forward a special case of a say a large family who are almost over-crowed
a modest older property (which has a low rateable value) who could be
losers under metering.


IIRC the chancellor had to put a differential of several pence/litre on
Unleaded Petrol (and IIRC had to increase it further) to get the public
putting the new fangled stuff into their cars. I think the situation is
similar there is a large degree of caution about going to a meter.

IMHO if the suppliers offered people an option to return to the old
flat tariff there would be less resistance to metering.

It seems that water consumption is more or less £50/year/per person the
reason for this lack of variation is that the WC is the biggest use and
that overwhelms cooking/bathing/washing variations.

Finally does it make any real difference because you choose not to water
your lawn in a drought (due to cost), or a prosecuted for watering it
during the inevitable hosepipe ban?

[1]
I think 3Valleys are charging £40 for something which costs them £200
(when the installation labour is accounted for. Others are even installing
them free.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
Electricity isn't essential. If it were we wouldn't be here.

If it wasn't for electrically powered incubator I almost certainly
wouldn't be here.

Should I have died as a baby Mary ;-)

No - but you don't know you'd have died. There's a trend towards mother heat
being used again for fragile babies.

I would have died, absolutely certainly, without the power tools which
opened my head to remove a tumour.

Or would I? Trepanning was used in very early times.

Of course all our lives have been enriched by electricity but the fact that
Mankind developed and lived until electricity was developed proves that it
isn't essential to life.

Just some individual lives ...

Mary

Owain

"Vera" wrote in message
...

I wouldn't dream of challenging you, Ed, but isn't the above because of
environmental considerations and not consumer costs? I suspect so. I
hope
so.


I doubt it...

Why?

What other reason can you suggest?

Profit

That says more about you than about anything else.

Mary

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:52:01 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Since the water companies are obligated to get people on to metering,

I wouldn't dream of challenging you, Ed, but isn't the above because of
environmental considerations and not consumer costs? I suspect so. I hope
so.

Yes I believe that the offwat or government target to go for metering is
essentially environmental... but the suppliers have a diffeent agenda.

In the short term the costs of installing metering are being carried by
the water Cos. They are offering free or highly subsidized meter
installs. [1] The Cos are doing this (I presume) because

a) They otherwise they won't meet their targets and will suffer some
consequence/fine/knuckle rapping/ in the future.
b) They know with increasing population (and per capita water usage?) they
won't be able to meet demand (without increasing the unit charge for
water) so they are looking for a long term method to put the brakes on
consumption.

Currently the pricing structure is such that almost everyone (even quite
large families) will benefit being on a meter, unless they are into
lawn sprinklers and garden hoses. This (I presume) is not an act of
charity on the part of the supplier but a necessity. It is possible to put
forward a special case of a say a large family who are almost over-crowed
a modest older property (which has a low rateable value) who could be
losers under metering.


IIRC the chancellor had to put a differential of several pence/litre on
Unleaded Petrol (and IIRC had to increase it further) to get the public
putting the new fangled stuff into their cars. I think the situation is
similar there is a large degree of caution about going to a meter.

IMHO if the suppliers offered people an option to return to the old
flat tariff there would be less resistance to metering.

It seems that water consumption is more or less £50/year/per person the
reason for this lack of variation is that the WC is the biggest use and
that overwhelms cooking/bathing/washing variations.

Finally does it make any real difference because you choose not to water
your lawn in a drought (due to cost), or a prosecuted for watering it
during the inevitable hosepipe ban?

[1]
I think 3Valleys are charging £40 for something which costs them £200
(when the installation labour is accounted for. Others are even installing
them free.

Thanks, Ed, that's a reasoned and, I thnk, fair assessment of the position.

Mary

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"chris French" wrote in message

We are buying a house in Cambridgeshire, meter or not really wasn't an
issue for us (though as it happens, most did seem to have meters) I'm
sure
there are few people who would be deterred, but I think the impact is
limited.

I'm sorry you're leaving the broad acres, Chris.

Me too.

Will you be telling us
where your new abode is?


All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village nearish
to Huntingdon.

Ah, fairly close to where one of our sons lives and where we'll be staying
next week.

But he's moving to his house in Chippenham in April. I'm sorry, I like his
Cambs house and not his Wilts one, his wife hates living 'in the sticks' and
is looking forward to going back to a house with no drive and no parking for
either of their cars except where you can get it - sometimes a good walk
away.

It takes all sorts.

But at least in Wilts when we stay we shan't have to use the children's bunk
beds, which is getting harder as we age!

Mary
--
Chris French, Leeds

"chris French" wrote in message
...

Will you be telling us
where your new abode is?


All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village nearish
to Huntingdon.

Very hard water there...

Mary
--
Chris French, Leeds

In article . uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:52:01 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Since the water companies are obligated to get people on to metering,

I wouldn't dream of challenging you, Ed, but isn't the above because of
environmental considerations and not consumer costs? I suspect so. I hope
so.

Yes I believe that the offwat or government target to go for metering is
essentially environmental... but the suppliers have a diffeent agenda.

In the short term the costs of installing metering are being carried by
the water Cos. They are offering free or highly subsidized meter
installs. [1] The Cos are doing this (I presume) because

a) They otherwise they won't meet their targets and will suffer some
consequence/fine/knuckle rapping/ in the future.
b) They know with increasing population (and per capita water usage?) they
won't be able to meet demand (without increasing the unit charge for
water) so they are looking for a long term method to put the brakes on
consumption.

I suppose, in perfect theory, they could also know exactly how much
water is lost in leaks, by comparing consumed water and supplied
water.

They are quite handy for showing post-meter leaks that customers
may not know about - until damp starts to appear (for meters outside
properties).

I read them for a few months a few years back. It's alarming to notice
that someone's meter is whizzing like mad and reading a thousand tonnes
of water higher than it should be. I saw a few cases like this.

As far as saving water for environmental reasons, then replacing leaking
pipes would make a much bigger difference than individual conscientious
usage. I can't recall the figure for water lost in leaks but it was
something horrendous, like one third.

--
Jamie

"Jamie" wrote in message
...

As far as saving water for environmental reasons, then replacing leaking
pipes would make a much bigger difference than individual conscientious
usage. I can't recall the figure for water lost in leaks but it was
something horrendous, like one third.

I believe that's being done, by Yorkshire Water at least.

Mary

--
Jamie

In message , Mary
Fisher writes

"chris French" wrote in message
...

Will you be telling us
where your new abode is?


All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village nearish
to Huntingdon.

Very hard water there...

Indeed it is, but I'm used to that, I've lived in hard water areas
before.

They already have one of those plumbed in water filters in the kitchen
IIRC. Might look into getting a water softener once we moved. Do people
find them useful?
--
Chris French, Leeds

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Surely paying £50/year for metered water. Which is cost for a modest
single consumer. Has got to be more affordable than a flat rate fixed fee
of typically £200/year (or more).


I entirely agree a water meter significantly cuts costs. But in my case the
standing charges (water supply/wastewater/surface water drainage/ highway
drainage) alone amount to £65. (this is Southern Water)

James

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:35:09 +0000, chris French
wrote:

All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village nearish
to Huntingdon.

I see you won't escape the DIY with this move then

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

In message , Anna Kettle
writes
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:35:09 +0000, chris French
wrote:

All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village nearish
to Huntingdon.

I see you won't escape the DIY with this move then

No.....

We did have a plan this time, with Helen's job, and the new baby to mvoe
to house that didn't really need too much doing, other than bit of
redeccing etc.

Of course once you start looking.......

Actually it's ok, much better than this house when we bought it.
Electrics are ok, a little bit dated, but can be updated as we see fit.
CH fine, decor mostly good/ok if not our taste.

But it's got lovely Victorian conservatory, which is of course wood and
will require a fair bit of maintenance, and it has great big window in
the hall/landing - lots of painting.... And we want to turn bathroom
back into bedroom, and put a en-suite in the ludicrously large dressing
room.

And....... :-)

Just wanting to get moved now.
--
Chris French, Leeds

"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Anna Kettle
writes
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:35:09 +0000, chris French
wrote:

All going well a nice big old Victorian house in a large village
nearish
to Huntingdon.

I see you won't escape the DIY with this move then

No.....

We did have a plan this time, with Helen's job, and the new baby to mvoe
to house that didn't really need too much doing, other than bit of
redeccing etc.

Of course once you start looking.......

Actually it's ok, much better than this house when we bought it. Electrics
are ok, a little bit dated, but can be updated as we see fit. CH fine,
decor mostly good/ok if not our taste.

But it's got lovely Victorian conservatory, which is of course wood and
will require a fair bit of maintenance, and it has great big window in
the hall/landing - lots of painting.... And we want to turn bathroom back
into bedroom, and put a en-suite in the ludicrously large dressing room.

And....... :-)

Just wanting to get moved now.
--
Chris French, Leeds

as the OP I would like to now add that I have fitted a water meter and time
will only tell if I will be able to save money. Oh, my water bill arrived
based on RV, it is for £276.58. standing charges alone are £144.75. now to
wait and see.

Dave

"dave" wrote in message
...


as the OP I would like to now add that I have fitted a water meter and
time will only tell if I will be able to save money. Oh, my water bill
arrived based on RV, it is for £276.58. standing charges alone are
£144.75. now to wait and see.

Let us know.

Mary

Dave