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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Part P inspections
All going well, in a couple of months we will be the new owners of a
nice big old Victorian house. Plenty of DIY :-) Anyway, the electric's are in ok order AFAICT, however the installation dates back to I think the 70's (maybe '60's) and at the very least will be up for some upgrading. Rather than a big all in one go job I anticipate a rolling program lasting a few years. How does the Building control / inspection business work in this situation, is there some sort of time limit within which a specific works must be completed. when deciding how legal I want to be, I like to know what I should be doing..... -- Chris French, Leeds |
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:55:46 +0000, chris French wrote:
How does the Building control / inspection business work in this situation, is there some sort of time limit within which a specific works must be completed. when deciding how legal I want to be, I like to know what I should be doing..... Hi Chris, Here's a copy of something I posted to the IEE forums, based on the same question I put to two building control depts, one in Kent, the other in East Sussex. It's only a phone conversation, and it would remain to see how either LBA worked out in practise (well, one of them, the other LBA would never get to hear of anything I did, you'll see why Copy of previous post to another forum made on 28 January 2005. [To answer one of your points, is there a time limit, answer: No, starting must be done withing a certain time, finishing has no limit). Tim ************* Going with the subject of DIY and Part P, I conferred with two LBA's recently about the exact procedure for DIY electrical work. Both wanted 117.50 pounds inc VAT for a building notice application. One LBA seemed to be making a right hash of the whole thing. They want to inspect at first fix and would only guarantee a visit with 2 days notice. They did make the concession (as far as I understood from their reply) that one could use conduit and replaster any wall chases, as long as they could see the cable ends. I believe though that they implied that I couldn't reinstate the circuit nor complete the connection of any fittings until after the first inspection. To their credit, the 2nd inspection would lead to a domestic installation inspection certificate at no further cost. Effectively, if redecorating several rooms seperately, and if I wished to complete any notifiable electrical work upon finishing other DIY in each room (in order to make the room habitable), I could need to make the same number of BNA's as rooms (at the requisite cost!). The second council seemed to be much more pragmatic. It was suggested that a first fix inpection could be made with everything complete and wired into the CU on the grounds that (especially if conduit was used) it was trivial to remove the odd plate an inpect the workmanship, cable type etc. I would be required by them to get a Periodic Inspect Cert at the end (apparantly from any competant + qualified person, which I took to mean C&G 2391) at my cost and present that to them. At this stage they may make a further inspection of their own and sign off the job. Both said there was no time limit to completetion under a BNA, so upon pushing the point with the second LBA, using the "redecorating several rooms, one at a time" scenario above I drew the following conclusion: If I am expecting to do 3 rooms this year plus other random bits, eg shed supply, I could submit a BNA covering the lot and proceed piecemeal as is usual for DIY. At the end of all the work, I call in an electrician to inspect/certify and send in the paperwork to the LBA. The latter case does lead to extra short term cost. As a conciensious person I have no problem with a Period Inspection (I have a family and I'm not reckless) and the approach taken by this council seemed to be the least disruptive and least inconvenient to go along with. Effectively cheaper in the long run if I could combine itty bitty jobs under one BNA. There was some degree of vagueness in both discussions, partly because I don't think either LBA has had time to settle down with the procedure yet. My genuine view was that the latter LBA were trying very hard to make the whole thing as undisruptive as possible for the DIYer (though I suppose it would benefit equally a non-self certifying electrician undertaking a series of jobs in one house over a medium period of time). My final thoughts were that the first LBA's approach was more likely to put people off declaring work whilst the second (if you can stomach the 117.50) was more likely to encourage people to declare and get a periodic done. Fortunately the house I'm moving to comes under the second LBA Tim ************* |
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Tim S wrote:
My genuine view was that the latter LBA were trying very hard to make the whole thing as undisruptive as possible for the DIYer (though I suppose it would benefit equally a non-self certifying electrician undertaking a series of jobs in one house over a medium period of time). My final thoughts were that the first LBA's approach was more likely to put people off declaring work whilst the second (if you can stomach the 117.50) was more likely to encourage people to declare and get a periodic done. So by extending that concept a little, the DIYers procedure henceforth shall be: 1) Move into house 2) Issue notice to LA that you plan to rewire entire property piecemeal and pay your 117.50 3) Carry out any works you fancy as and when you see fit over arbitary time frame.... You are now back to the pre Part taking the P scheme! 4) If you later move out of the house, and if you have finished the rewire, you notify them to get your cert, else declare it to the new buyer as an ongoing work for the next owner to pick up. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:57:24 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: So by extending that concept a little, the DIYers procedure henceforth shall be: 1) Move into house 2) Issue notice to LA that you plan to rewire entire property piecemeal and pay your 117.50 3) Carry out any works you fancy as and when you see fit over arbitary time frame.... You are now back to the pre Part taking the P scheme! 4) If you later move out of the house, and if you have finished the rewire, you notify them to get your cert, else declare it to the new buyer as an ongoing work for the next owner to pick up. I see it all now. These applications and papers could be a traded commodity. We could have an exchange for them, an index, buy and sell futures and derivatives...... The exchange could have those silly little boys with their red braces and Porsches and cocaine habits running around and throwing tantra and cutting plastic pipes with hacksaws. A senior government minister could be caught doing insider trading, tough it out but eventually have to resign. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Andy Hall wrote:
I see it all now. These applications and papers could be a traded commodity. We could have an exchange for them, an index, buy and sell futures and derivatives...... The exchange could have those silly little boys with their red braces and Porsches and cocaine habits running around and throwing tantra and cutting plastic pipes with hacksaws. You don't mean instead of: http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/imm.jpg We would have: http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/dr-yuppy.jpg -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Andy Hall wrote: I see it all now. These applications and papers could be a traded commodity. We could have an exchange for them, an index, buy and sell futures and derivatives...... The exchange could have those silly little boys with their red braces and Porsches and cocaine habits running around and throwing tantra and cutting plastic pipes with hacksaws. You don't mean instead of: http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/imm.jpg We would have: http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/dr-yuppy.jpg This is disgusting. This is racist. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:57:24 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
Tim S wrote: My genuine view was that the latter LBA were trying very hard to make the whole thing as undisruptive as possible for the DIYer (though I suppose it would benefit equally a non-self certifying electrician undertaking a series of jobs in one house over a medium period of time). My final thoughts were that the first LBA's approach was more likely to put people off declaring work whilst the second (if you can stomach the 117.50) was more likely to encourage people to declare and get a periodic done. So by extending that concept a little, the DIYers procedure henceforth shall be: 1) Move into house 2) Issue notice to LA that you plan to rewire entire property piecemeal and pay your 117.50 Don't forget to include vague plans of garden/shed wiring... 3) Carry out any works you fancy as and when you see fit over arbitary time frame.... You are now back to the pre Part taking the P scheme! 4) If you later move out of the house, and if you have finished the rewire, you notify them to get your cert, else declare it to the new buyer as an ongoing work for the next owner to pick up. Exactly what I concluded. But only with one LBA you will note. The other, if you did that, you would have no working electrics at all. What I was wondering would happen if I got bored, called in the period inspection and told the LBA I'd cancelled a number of items on the BNA 'cos I couldn't be bothered... Tim |
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Tim S wrote: My genuine view was that the latter LBA were trying very hard to make the whole thing as undisruptive as possible for the DIYer (though I suppose it would benefit equally a non-self certifying electrician undertaking a series of jobs in one house over a medium period of time). My final thoughts were that the first LBA's approach was more likely to put people off declaring work whilst the second (if you can stomach the 117.50) was more likely to encourage people to declare and get a periodic done. So by extending that concept a little, the DIYers procedure henceforth shall be: 1) Move into house 2) Issue notice to LA that you plan to rewire entire property piecemeal and pay your 117.50 3) Carry out any works you fancy as and when you see fit over arbitary time frame.... But that's no different to other renovation work. I put in for a huge raft of work over two years ago (with no mention of electrics of course) and am still going strong. |
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:40:34 +0000, Mike wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... 3) Carry out any works you fancy as and when you see fit over arbitary time frame.... But that's no different to other renovation work. I put in for a huge raft of work over two years ago (with no mention of electrics of course) and am still going strong. So your LBA don't mind doing multiple "first fix" inspections? Tim |
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Tim S wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:40:34 +0000, Mike wrote: But that's no different to other renovation work. I put in for a huge raft of work over two years ago (with no mention of electrics of course) and am still going strong. So your LBA don't mind doing multiple "first fix" inspections? I had mine out, oh, must have been about 8 times during 12 months, for an application costing 117 quid. Once or twice it was just for visiting to clarify some query or other which I phoned up about. They were perfectly happy about it. David |
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"Tim S" wrote in message news On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:40:34 +0000, Mike wrote: "John Rumm" wrote in message ... 3) Carry out any works you fancy as and when you see fit over arbitary time frame.... But that's no different to other renovation work. I put in for a huge raft of work over two years ago (with no mention of electrics of course) and am still going strong. So your LBA don't mind doing multiple "first fix" inspections? That's his problem. 'First fix' is something for pros. This is a personal renovation and so jobs are done one at a time. |
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"Tim S" wrote in message news On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:55:46 +0000, chris French wrote: How does the Building control / inspection business work in this situation, is there some sort of time limit within which a specific works must be completed. when deciding how legal I want to be, I like to know what I should be doing..... Hi Chris, Here's a copy of something I posted to the IEE forums, based on the same question I put to two building control depts, one in Kent, the other in East Sussex. It's only a phone conversation, and it would remain to see how either LBA worked out in practise (well, one of them, the other LBA would never get to hear of anything I did, you'll see why Copy of previous post to another forum made on 28 January 2005. [To answer one of your points, is there a time limit, answer: No, starting must be done withing a certain time, finishing has no limit). Tim ************* Going with the subject of DIY and Part P, I conferred with two LBA's recently about the exact procedure for DIY electrical work. Both wanted 117.50 pounds inc VAT for a building notice application. One LBA seemed to be making a right hash of the whole thing. They want to inspect at first fix and would only guarantee a visit with 2 days notice. They did make the concession (as far as I understood from their reply) that one could use conduit and replaster any wall chases, as long as they could see the cable ends. I believe though that they implied that I couldn't reinstate the circuit nor complete the connection of any fittings until after the first inspection. To their credit, the 2nd inspection would lead to a domestic installation inspection certificate at no further cost. Effectively, if redecorating several rooms seperately, and if I wished to complete any notifiable electrical work upon finishing other DIY in each room (in order to make the room habitable), I could need to make the same number of BNA's as rooms (at the requisite cost!). The second council seemed to be much more pragmatic. It was suggested that a first fix inpection could be made with everything complete and wired into the CU on the grounds that (especially if conduit was used) it was trivial to remove the odd plate an inpect the workmanship, cable type etc. I would be required by them to get a Periodic Inspect Cert at the end (apparantly from any competant + qualified person, which I took to mean C&G 2391) at my cost and present that to them. At this stage they may make a further inspection of their own and sign off the job. Both said there was no time limit to completetion under a BNA, so upon pushing the point with the second LBA, using the "redecorating several rooms, one at a time" scenario above I drew the following conclusion: If I am expecting to do 3 rooms this year plus other random bits, eg shed supply, I could submit a BNA covering the lot and proceed piecemeal as is usual for DIY. At the end of all the work, I call in an electrician to inspect/certify and send in the paperwork to the LBA. The latter case does lead to extra short term cost. As a conciensious person I have no problem with a Period Inspection (I have a family and I'm not reckless) and the approach taken by this council seemed to be the least disruptive and least inconvenient to go along with. Effectively cheaper in the long run if I could combine itty bitty jobs under one BNA. There was some degree of vagueness in both discussions, partly because I don't think either LBA has had time to settle down with the procedure yet. My genuine view was that the latter LBA were trying very hard to make the whole thing as undisruptive as possible for the DIYer (though I suppose it would benefit equally a non-self certifying electrician undertaking a series of jobs in one house over a medium period of time). My final thoughts were that the first LBA's approach was more likely to put people off declaring work whilst the second (if you can stomach the 117.50) was more likely to encourage people to declare and get a periodic done. Fortunately the house I'm moving to comes under the second LBA Tim ************* Can a DIYer do all the electrics, in kitchens, etc, as long as the LBA are notified in advance, paid, check and issue a certificate? _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:58:53 +0000, Doctor Evil wrote:
Can a DIYer do all the electrics, in kitchens, etc, as long as the LBA are notified in advance, paid, check and issue a certificate? Yes. Kitchens (and bathrooms, areas outside of the equipotential zone) are only "special" with regard to exempted works. eg: you may add a spur to an existing ring main without telling anyone, but not in a kitchen or bathroom or (presumably) your detached shed (I am unclear on the last point). You may, however, with the appropriate planning permission and building control, knock down your house, and build a completely new one, make the foundations (with cellar), fit the electrics, gas, structural members, roof etc all by your own fair hand. Many people do varying degrees of this all the time. Theoretically, I suppose you could build a skyscraper as a DIY job, but the PP would be tricky (Norman Foster has enough trouble) and the building control people probably want to see calculations slightly more sophisticated than the printout of a "Superbeam" screenshot ;- Tim |
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"Tim S" wrote in message news On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:58:53 +0000, Doctor Evil wrote: Can a DIYer do all the electrics, in kitchens, etc, as long as the LBA are notified in advance, paid, check and issue a certificate? Yes. Kitchens (and bathrooms, areas outside of the equipotential zone) are only "special" with regard to exempted works. eg: you may add a spur to an existing ring main without telling anyone, but not in a kitchen or bathroom or (presumably) your detached shed (I am unclear on the last point). Many DIYers have fitted unvented cylinders and the BCO has signed it off. So, you can do an unvented cylidner as long as you inform the LBA and pay the fee. You may, however, with the appropriate planning permission and building control, knock down your house, and build a completely new one, make the foundations (with cellar), fit the electrics, gas, structural members, roof etc all by your own fair hand. Many people do varying degrees of this all the time. Theoretically, I suppose you could build a skyscraper as a DIY job, but the PP would be tricky (Norman Foster has enough trouble) and the building control people probably want to see calculations slightly more sophisticated than the printout of a "Superbeam" screenshot ;- Tim _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:58:53 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote: Can a DIYer do all the electrics, in kitchens, etc, as long as the LBA are notified in advance, paid, check and issue a certificate? Yes, as long as they don't use a hacksaw to cut and strip the cable. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:40:00 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:58:53 -0000, "Doctor Evil" wrote: Can a DIYer do all the electrics, in kitchens, etc, as long as the LBA are notified in advance, paid, check and issue a certificate? Yes, as long as they don't use a hacksaw to cut and strip the cable. What about teeth...? |
#17
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:58:53 -0000, "Doctor Evil" wrote: Can a DIYer do all the electrics, in kitchens, etc, as long as the LBA are notified in advance, paid, check and issue a certificate? Yes, as long as they don't use a hacksaw to cut and strip the cable. Frank, the LBA would cut your wires with a hacksaw? My oh my! _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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