Fwom:Owain )
"N. Thornton" wrote

| I thought you said it was the customers responsiobility to go get
| paperwork, not the tricians, in which case there would be nothing
| illegal about an electrician doing a job and leaving it upto the
| customer to do the paperwork. Am I wrong?

Not wrong; obtaining building control approval comes down to the
householder. BUT if that is approval is not pre-arranged then the
illegality
would be committed by the electrician at the time of doing the work.

Ahhh, NT finally gets it, ty.


(This
also means that only registered contractors could offer an
'emergency'
service.) Illegal work can be regularised afterwards, of course, but
that
might involve opening up finished works.

| To a fair extent one can get past that with legal phrasing on the
| quote paperwork, something along the lines of in some cases
| you might need to register it or have it inspected by the LA.

"Quote paperwork"...? For the jobbing electrician whose paperwork is
a
duplicate book written on the job, making out a 'quote' for changing
a
socket in a kitchen will add 5 minutes to the job. Eight jobs a day,
that's
an extra 40 minutes' work for no remuneration.

Yup, as is ever the way with paperwork, but its required more and more
now. If its a way to operate legally post-part-p then it would be
worth it, but I gather its not.

So does this mean all the domestic sparks that dont partake in the
part p schemes now are working illegally? I suspect if govt starts
prosecuting there would soon be a pretty big backlash.


NT

"N. Thornton" wrote
| So does this mean all the domestic sparks that dont partake in
| the part p schemes now are working illegally? I suspect if govt
| starts prosecuting there would soon be a pretty big backlash.

From whom? The trade organisations and consumer groups would be united in
wanting to clamp down on 'cowboy' tradespeople, and many householders will
also be glad of a way of identifying 'reputable' (hahahaha) tradespeople.

Even the articles I've seen in DIY and self-building magazines don't
question the legislation (or even explain the exemptions and limitations of
the regulations). But even the serious magazines seem to be becoming more
'lifestyle' with "here are some pictures of some pretty switches and sockets
you can ask your electrician to install for you".

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"N. Thornton" wrote
| So does this mean all the domestic sparks that dont partake in
| the part p schemes now are working illegally? I suspect if govt
| starts prosecuting there would soon be a pretty big backlash.

From whom? The trade organisations and consumer groups would be united in
wanting to clamp down on 'cowboy' tradespeople, and many householders will
also be glad of a way of identifying 'reputable' (hahahaha) tradespeople.

Even the articles I've seen in DIY and self-building magazines don't
question the legislation (or even explain the exemptions and limitations
of
the regulations). But even the serious magazines seem to be becoming more
'lifestyle' with "here are some pictures of some pretty switches and
sockets
you can ask your electrician to install for you".

Owain


I've been following this thread with great interest, and I must admit that
my feelings about this legislation are a mixture of rage and depression. I'm
a pretty serious DIY-er and have done all my own wiring over many years,
taking care to adhere to IEEE regs. As it happens I'm in the middle of a
pretty major (kitchen, as it happens!) project at present. I have a number
of questions/comments either relating to points made here or in other parts
of the thread, so if it's OK I'll just list the ones at the front of my
mind:

1. Politics. I'm a classical floating voter so I am NOT trying to grind any
political axes here, but I did E-mail the Tories asking them what their
attitude to Part P was. Wait a little while (it was over Christmas to be
fair..) and I've got a slightly arse-covering reply that comes out strongly
for making a bonfire of unnecessary regulations as soon as they get in, as
follows:
" Thank you for your email. I agree with you that this is a costly
and meddlesome piece of regulation. It is on our list items for
consideration for repeal/amendment in our first year in office. I will
be announcing the likely contents of our first deregulation bill nearer
the time of the election. Thank you for writing to us and confirming our
view that regulation is now over the top and often damaging.
Yours sincerely John Redwood"

I guess if anyone is ever to repeal this, it would be the Tories, but
nothing is certain in this world, certainly not their winning the next
election.....

2. A public stink? Who knows - it could go either way really. ISTRM a
statistic quoted early on in this (?) thread that last year there were 2M
'paid' domestic electrical jobs done in the UK, and 1M DIY ones. (I may have
got the definitions wrong here, but my impression was that all tradesmen &
cowboy work was lumped into the 'paid' category.) What % of that 1M will be
seriously ****ed? - assuming that there are multiple jobs in there and so
on - my guess would be 10-25%. How many upset people does it take to make a
stink? - it really all depends on whether they have a voice and are
articulate or not. The problem here is that we are all individuals and not
represented by any official body with a voice.

The media might get hold of it, but given their generally trivial and
brainless approach to this sort of domestic topic I don't hold out many
hopes. There are two obvious and opposite lines of attack:
i) Some poor old dear sitting freezing in her house because she can't get
anyone to wire up her boiler because no-one will touch Part P in her
locality. Would require some well informed and joined up research (!)
I) The guy in court. If he had done an A1 job and a particularly diligent
local council was prosecuting him on principle, then this could be good; but
more likely it will be a guy who has done a bloody awful job, someone got a
shock, the council prosecutes and everyone applauds and says how jolly good
Part P is.


3. The rebel. I'd like to get a better understanding of the powers in play
here, so here are a few questions:

i) What rights of access does yer local BCO have on private property? Are
they the same as the police where - with suitable paperwork completed - they
can insist on entry, or are they the same as - say - a planning department,
who have to be invited on by the householder? (Of course, if they are
invited on for another job, there is a risk the whole can of worms might
open up, so a prospective rebel needs to do some seriously joined up
thinking and very good work...)
ii) Sale time and sellers packs. So I eventually sell this place and get all
these surveys done, and the electrical one finds something (I'd be
surprised, but you never know surveyors) that raises an issue. Do I have to
fix this before I am allowed to sell - or do I just have to negotiate with
my buyer saying 'OK, there's this item on the report, say £500 off for you
getting an electrician to sort it out..'?
iii) Means of detection. Unless I'm missing something the private
householder (as opposed to the cowboy) has very little risk of being
detected indeed. The only routes seem to be either by BCO visit (i above),
by sale (bit late by then) or by getting it wrong and having an incident of
some nature (fire/shock) which draws official attention (there is the
insurance dimension here as well, but that's another story). Am I right?


Quietly seething

Tim

draws official attention (there is the insurance dimension here as well,
but that's another story). Am I right?


Quietly seething

Tim

I think thats the one which will come in, the insurance co will see
another way of making money for nothing and insist on a yearly check of
electrics, gas etc. Rather like MOT's. You can argue either way of course,
but we will all end up paying for it.

Dave

--

Some people use windows, others have a life.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:16:35 +0000 (UTC), "timycelyn"
wrote:



1. Politics. I'm a classical floating voter so I am NOT trying to grind any
political axes here, but I did E-mail the Tories asking them what their
attitude to Part P was. Wait a little while (it was over Christmas to be
fair..) and I've got a slightly arse-covering reply that comes out strongly
for making a bonfire of unnecessary regulations as soon as they get in, as
follows:
" Thank you for your email. I agree with you that this is a costly
and meddlesome piece of regulation. It is on our list items for
consideration for repeal/amendment in our first year in office. I will
be announcing the likely contents of our first deregulation bill nearer
the time of the election. Thank you for writing to us and confirming our
view that regulation is now over the top and often damaging.
Yours sincerely John Redwood"

I guess if anyone is ever to repeal this, it would be the Tories, but
nothing is certain in this world, certainly not their winning the next
election.....

John Redwood is very aware of Part P. He's my local MP and I have
written to him about it on several occasions as well as discussing it
with him personally a couple of times.




2. A public stink? Who knows - it could go either way really. ISTRM a
statistic quoted early on in this (?) thread that last year there were 2M
'paid' domestic electrical jobs done in the UK, and 1M DIY ones. (I may have
got the definitions wrong here, but my impression was that all tradesmen &
cowboy work was lumped into the 'paid' category.) What % of that 1M will be
seriously ****ed? - assuming that there are multiple jobs in there and so
on - my guess would be 10-25%. How many upset people does it take to make a
stink? - it really all depends on whether they have a voice and are
articulate or not. The problem here is that we are all individuals and not
represented by any official body with a voice.

The media might get hold of it, but given their generally trivial and
brainless approach to this sort of domestic topic I don't hold out many
hopes. There are two obvious and opposite lines of attack:
i) Some poor old dear sitting freezing in her house because she can't get
anyone to wire up her boiler because no-one will touch Part P in her
locality. Would require some well informed and joined up research (!)
I) The guy in court. If he had done an A1 job and a particularly diligent
local council was prosecuting him on principle, then this could be good; but
more likely it will be a guy who has done a bloody awful job, someone got a
shock, the council prosecutes and everyone applauds and says how jolly good
Part P is.

I suspect that most DIYers who want to do electrical work will
continue to do so blissfully unaware or ignoring the legislation.



3. The rebel. I'd like to get a better understanding of the powers in play
here, so here are a few questions:

i) What rights of access does yer local BCO have on private property? Are
they the same as the police where - with suitable paperwork completed - they
can insist on entry, or are they the same as - say - a planning department,
who have to be invited on by the householder? (Of course, if they are
invited on for another job, there is a risk the whole can of worms might
open up, so a prospective rebel needs to do some seriously joined up
thinking and very good work...)
ii) Sale time and sellers packs. So I eventually sell this place and get all
these surveys done, and the electrical one finds something (I'd be
surprised, but you never know surveyors) that raises an issue. Do I have to
fix this before I am allowed to sell - or do I just have to negotiate with
my buyer saying 'OK, there's this item on the report, say £500 off for you
getting an electrician to sort it out..'?
iii) Means of detection. Unless I'm missing something the private
householder (as opposed to the cowboy) has very little risk of being
detected indeed. The only routes seem to be either by BCO visit (i above),
by sale (bit late by then) or by getting it wrong and having an incident of
some nature (fire/shock) which draws official attention (there is the
insurance dimension here as well, but that's another story). Am I right?

I would agree with you on point (iii). The additional one would be
that if a building notice/application is submitted for something else
then wiring may get swept into that.

However, if you are having something built that requires BCO
involvement - even if it's only that it's more obvious to the casual
passer by, then the electrical work can be included in it even if you
do it yourself.





Quietly seething

Tim





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

timycelyn wrote:

I've been following this thread with great interest, and I must admit that
my feelings about this legislation are a mixture of rage and depression. I'm
a pretty serious DIY-er and have done all my own wiring over many years,
taking care to adhere to IEEE regs. As it happens I'm in the middle of a
pretty major (kitchen, as it happens!) project at present. I have a number

You should be ok since you started before the deadline... not that that
makes the situation any better in general however.

2. A public stink? Who knows - it could go either way really. ISTRM a
statistic quoted early on in this (?) thread that last year there were 2M
'paid' domestic electrical jobs done in the UK, and 1M DIY ones. (I may have
got the definitions wrong here, but my impression was that all tradesmen &
cowboy work was lumped into the 'paid' category.) What % of that 1M will be
seriously ****ed? - assuming that there are multiple jobs in there and so
on - my guess would be 10-25%. How many upset people does it take to make a
stink? - it really all depends on whether they have a voice and are
articulate or not. The problem here is that we are all individuals and not
represented by any official body with a voice.

I would guess there are not going to be that many people who are going
to feel passionately enough about the issue directly. Perhaps over time
when people realise it is yet another (government inflected) reason why
it is so hard and expensive to find good trades people, then you may
find some more fuss being made.

From a DIY perspective I anticipate that most DIYers will not have the
faintest idea the legislation even exists, and hence carry on as before.
Those that are aware of it I expect in most cases will ignore it. I get
the impression that many people only have a faint idea about the whole
concept of building control and BCOs etc anyway, let alone the legal
requirements. Unless you have had building work done recently (or you
read this newsgroup) then that is not perhaps that surprising.

I guess the general "problem" (from the POV of raising a stink) is that
while part P is a general PITA, but it is not generally the sort of
thing that is going to threaten many peoples livelihoods in such a way
that cannot be circumvented (unlike some of the cloud 9 tax legislation
that Gorden likes to bash small businesses with).

There is a "time of plenty" for the trades in general at the moment (and
if two jabs gets his way and does manage to concrete over the whole of
the south east, it seems likely to continue). I expect most sparkies
will simply see complying with part P as another expense and hence a
reduction in profits. (for those keeping out of the tax man's eye, a big
reduction... hey do you think....). Hence many may simply resist it
since it buys them nothing.

The more astute sparkies may be thinking of it as a potential money
winner, given that they can cough up for registration etc, but then
charge a price premium for their service. They could also start to pull
other sparkies, who do not wish to register, into their business and use
it as a way of growing the business.

The group that is much harder to call is the army of "other" trades that
also do electrical work (i.e. gas fitters, kitchen fitters, network
installers etc).

The media might get hold of it, but given their generally trivial and
brainless approach to this sort of domestic topic I don't hold out many
hopes.

I think you are right... I have yet to see many reasonable explanations
of the whole fiasco in any of the press. Much of the coverage is so far
of the mark to be even unrecognisable at times.

There are two obvious and opposite lines of attack:
i) Some poor old dear sitting freezing in her house because she can't get
anyone to wire up her boiler because no-one will touch Part P in her
locality. Would require some well informed and joined up research (!)
I) The guy in court. If he had done an A1 job and a particularly diligent
local council was prosecuting him on principle, then this could be good; but
more likely it will be a guy who has done a bloody awful job, someone got a
shock, the council prosecutes and everyone applauds and says how jolly good
Part P is.

The obvious danger is the press will look for the sensational "human
angle", "the government should protect the ....", "oh they did, cowboy
flouts the law etc". To get upset about the legislation itself, requires
a good deal more analysis and understanding of its implications and
how/why it came into being. You only need to look at the amount of time
we have spent discussing it in this forum, to know that it not going to
happen in a 20 second sound bite on the news.

3. The rebel. I'd like to get a better understanding of the powers in play
here, so here are a few questions:

i) What rights of access does yer local BCO have on private property? Are

I don't believe they have any statutery right of entry (unlike customs
and excise, or ironically, your electricity supplier).

they the same as the police where - with suitable paperwork completed - they
can insist on entry, or are they the same as - say - a planning department,
who have to be invited on by the householder? (Of course, if they are
invited on for another job, there is a risk the whole can of worms might
open up, so a prospective rebel needs to do some seriously joined up
thinking and very good work...)

Given that the majority of BCOs do not seem to come from the electrical
trades anyway, it seems unlikely they are going to be keen to get into
too much detailed discussion on the subject. They may ask questions
however and see where the householder leads them.

ii) Sale time and sellers packs. So I eventually sell this place and get all
these surveys done, and the electrical one finds something (I'd be
surprised, but you never know surveyors) that raises an issue. Do I have to
fix this before I am allowed to sell - or do I just have to negotiate with
my buyer saying 'OK, there's this item on the report, say ï½£500 off for you
getting an electrician to sort it out..'?

Guess it depends on the market. You may need to pay to have the various
works that have been done without notification "regularised". If they
are all to standard however they will not be instructing to to rip out
the work etc.

(in fact that seems like the best way forward for most DIYers, do as
many jobs as you want, when you want, over however many years. Then just
pay the one fee at the end to have the proverbial building control holy
water sprinkled on it when you sell the place. If anyone tell you that
you are a naughty boy you can simply say "Part P? never heard of it gov").

iii) Means of detection. Unless I'm missing something the private
householder (as opposed to the cowboy) has very little risk of being
detected indeed. The only routes seem to be either by BCO visit (i above),
by sale (bit late by then) or by getting it wrong and having an incident of
some nature (fire/shock) which draws official attention (there is the
insurance dimension here as well, but that's another story). Am I right?

I expect so...

(other options might be being "grassed up" by a busybody neighbour etc).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
I guess the general "problem" (from the POV of raising a stink) is that
while part P is a general PITA, but it is not generally the sort of
thing that is going to threaten many peoples livelihoods in such a way
that cannot be circumvented (unlike some of the cloud 9 tax legislation
that Gorden likes to bash small businesses with).

Even that appears to be circumventable with care. Heard the other day of a
software contracting agency offering people registered through a Luxembourg
office. Looked into it a bit more and it does currently appeat legit. One
presumes GB is working on closing this hole whilst not arguing with TB.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:16:35 +0000 (UTC), "timycelyn"
wrote:

I guess if anyone is ever to repeal this, it would be the Tories, but
nothing is certain in this world, certainly not their winning the next
election.....

John Redwood is very aware of Part P. He's my local MP and I have
written to him about it on several occasions as well as discussing it
with him personally a couple of times.

Ah, that's a little encouraging then. Glad to know that he's picking this up
from multiple sources, although there are just a few unknowns in the system
before we would gwt to a point when the Tories are in a position to repeal
this....

But I must admit that I'll take the trouble to look at their anti-red tape
paper when it comes out, to see what they say about part P.

Cheers

Tim

Mike wrote:

Even that appears to be circumventable with care. Heard the other day of a
software contracting agency offering people registered through a Luxembourg
office. Looked into it a bit more and it does currently appeat legit. One
presumes GB is working on closing this hole whilst not arguing with TB.

As it said on maps, "there be dragons here"!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I'm pretty careful asbout bottom posting, but as I'm going to do an
'interleaved' reply I hope I'll be forgiven......
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
timycelyn wrote:


I'm in the middle of a pretty major (kitchen, as it happens!) project at
present. I have a number

You should be ok since you started before the deadline... not that that
makes the situation any better in general however.

I wonder how many projects I can call one project?? 'Well, nice Mr BCO, it's
all one seamless project called fix my house...' Sadly, ISTRM a time limit
too. Pity.

2. A public stink? I would guess there are not going to be that many
people who are going
to feel passionately enough about the issue directly. Perhaps over time
when people realise it is yet another (government inflected) reason why it
is so hard and expensive to find good trades people, then you may find
some more fuss being made.

From a DIY perspective I anticipate that most DIYers will not have the
faintest idea the legislation even exists, and hence carry on as before.
Those that are aware of it I expect in most cases will ignore it. I get
the impression that many people only have a faint idea about the whole
concept of building control and BCOs etc anyway, let alone the legal
requirements. Unless you have had building work done recently (or you read
this newsgroup) then that is not perhaps that surprising.

I guess the general "problem" (from the POV of raising a stink) is that
while part P is a general PITA, but it is not generally the sort of thing
that is going to threaten many peoples livelihoods in such a way that
cannot be circumvented (unlike some of the cloud 9 tax legislation that
Gorden likes to bash small businesses with).

There is a "time of plenty" for the trades in general at the moment (and
if two jabs gets his way and does manage to concrete over the whole of the
south east, it seems likely to continue). I expect most sparkies will
simply see complying with part P as another expense and hence a reduction
in profits. (for those keeping out of the tax man's eye, a big
reduction... hey do you think....). Hence many may simply resist it since
it buys them nothing.

The more astute sparkies may be thinking of it as a potential money
winner, given that they can cough up for registration etc, but then charge
a price premium for their service. They could also start to pull other
sparkies, who do not wish to register, into their business and use it as a
way of growing the business.

The group that is much harder to call is the army of "other" trades that
also do electrical work (i.e. gas fitters, kitchen fitters, network
installers etc).

Yep, the prognosis for any sort of mass revolt is poor the the point of
non-existent. Even if electricians become scarcer Joe Public won't associate
it with part P, but with some less well defined 'Things arn't as good as
when I was a youngster' malaise which isn't too helpful. Your analysis of
the motivators acting on the different tradesmen groups is interesting,
though. From other comment here I get the impression that it might be the
last group (multiskill fitters etc) who might make slightly bigger waves, as
they will be happy to blame part P for any attributable electrical woes
experienced by Joe P.



I think you are right... I have yet to see many reasonable explanations of
the whole fiasco in any of the press. Much of the coverage is so far of
the mark to be even unrecognisable at times.


The obvious danger is the press will look for the sensational "human
angle", "the government should protect the ....", "oh they did, cowboy
flouts the law etc". To get upset about the legislation itself, requires a
good deal more analysis and understanding of its implications and how/why
it came into being. You only need to look at the amount of time we have
spent discussing it in this forum, to know that it not going to happen in
a 20 second sound bite on the news.

Oh man, just starting to think about the 'human interest' angles the average
journalist will dig up to make a story out of what would be a pretty
technical issue makes me feel slightly sick. 'Shock horror scare, little
Lucy's gerbil had to wear mittens because some useless tradesman said he
couldn't wire up the elctric heater' (The alternative story is where same
gerbil becomes gerbil fricasee through malfunction of badly wired electric
heater by naughty cowboy etc etc)

3. The rebel.
I don't believe they have any statutery right of entry (unlike customs and
excise, or ironically, your electricity supplier).

That's what I thought - so we have a useful starting point here.


Guess it depends on the market. You may need to pay to have the various
works that have been done without notification "regularised". If they are
all to standard however they will not be instructing to to rip out the
work etc.

(in fact that seems like the best way forward for most DIYers, do as many
jobs as you want, when you want, over however many years. Then just pay
the one fee at the end to have the proverbial building control holy water
sprinkled on it when you sell the place. If anyone tell you that you are a
naughty boy you can simply say "Part P? never heard of it gov").

Absolutely. A useful optional extra in this approach is to lay in a stock of
red/black TW&E now (Screwfix still have it) as although the dates don't
quite co-incide by a year or so, I would have thought it would be one
obvious way that work will be dated by BCO's in years to come. I know other
fittings, clips and so on slowly change over the years, but a reasonably
competent faker should be able to put some wiring in in (say) 5 yrs time
that, after a few months of wear and tear, could look just like vintage
2004.


.. The only routes seem to be either by BCO visit (i above),
by sale (bit late by then) or by getting it wrong and having an incident
of some nature (fire/shock) which draws official attention (there is the
insurance dimension here as well, but that's another story). Am I right?

I expect so...

(other options might be being "grassed up" by a busybody neighbour etc).

Mmm, that would be a way to win friends and influence people, for sure. But
such snurges do exist, so it would pay to bear this in mind and deploy the
correct amount of surreptition. Easy for me as I'm on a farm with my nearest
neighbour 1/2 mile away!

Speaking of which, I do wish there was a happy medium in all of this - like
insistance on a good idiot proof RCD setup at the CU, which I would readily
support - having a farm I'm very careful indeed in this respect. [Sigh] The
problem is that there are clowns out there, who ought to have something
biological done to them with theri screwdrivers. Take the farmer I bought
off 10 years ago. He had connected up his outbuildings with under-rated
buried cables, when he needed to join them he brought them above surface to
a domestic junction box mounted on a dinky little wooden post (it was
weatherproof, it had a slowly perishing Tesco carrier bag taped over it!!).
The wiring in the house roof space was rubber so perished that the live
conductor showed through in places, and he had gone mad with chocolate
blocks as well. I reckon he should have been nominated for some sort of
prize.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Thanks for a throughtful reply


Tim

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:20:07 +0000 (UTC), "timycelyn"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:16:35 +0000 (UTC), "timycelyn"
wrote:

I guess if anyone is ever to repeal this, it would be the Tories, but
nothing is certain in this world, certainly not their winning the next
election.....

John Redwood is very aware of Part P. He's my local MP and I have
written to him about it on several occasions as well as discussing it
with him personally a couple of times.

Ah, that's a little encouraging then. Glad to know that he's picking this up
from multiple sources, although there are just a few unknowns in the system
before we would gwt to a point when the Tories are in a position to repeal
this....

But I must admit that I'll take the trouble to look at their anti-red tape
paper when it comes out, to see what they say about part P.

It is encouraging, but I think that one has to set it in context.
There will undoubtedly be a long list with some rather more earth
shattering and affecting issues than part P higher up the list.

I'm fighting a few other battles with government departments at the
moment, so in one respect I can sympathise with politicians to a point
in that they are broadsided with so much stuff it can be very diffult
to set priorities.

On part P, it is very obvious that the industry interest groups waged
a successful propaganda campaign with both the politicians and the
civil servants. As individuals, it's quite hard to compete with
that, when data is selected to suit the desired outcome.




--

..andy

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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
John Redwood is very aware of Part P. He's my local MP and I have
written to him about it on several occasions as well as discussing it
with him personally a couple of times.

Ah, that's a little encouraging then. Glad to know that he's picking this
up
from multiple sources, although there are just a few unknowns in the
system
before we would gwt to a point when the Tories are in a position to
repeal
this....

But I must admit that I'll take the trouble to look at their anti-red
tape
paper when it comes out, to see what they say about part P.

It is encouraging, but I think that one has to set it in context.
There will undoubtedly be a long list with some rather more earth
shattering and affecting issues than part P higher up the list.

Well hopefully they will just press 'Reset' and get rid of all of Blair's
and Major's socialist nonsense in one day.

In article , Timycelyn wrote:
But I must admit that I'll take the trouble to look at their
anti-red tape paper when it comes out, to see what they say
about part P.

Don't get your hopes up. I quoted an article from House Builder
a month or two back that critically examined Tory planning
policies. The conclusion was that if HB's think that getting PP
is problematic now then they'd better be hoping that Labour gets
back in as it would be much worse with the alternative.

--
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In article , Mike wrote:
Well hopefully they will just press 'Reset' and get rid of
all of Blair's and Major's socialist nonsense in one day.

Part P is nothing to do with socialism. If anything it's a
throwback to the days of medieval guilds where only the selected
few could practice any trade or profession and the members of
same fiercely protected their monopoly. Go to Australia, which
has a seriously right-wing government, and you can't do any
electrical work unless qualified.

--
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Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article , Mike
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
John Redwood is very aware of Part P. He's my local MP and I have
written to him about it on several occasions as well as discussing it
with him personally a couple of times.

Ah, that's a little encouraging then. Glad to know that he's picking this
up
from multiple sources, although there are just a few unknowns in the
system
before we would gwt to a point when the Tories are in a position to
repeal
this....

But I must admit that I'll take the trouble to look at their anti-red
tape
paper when it comes out, to see what they say about part P.

It is encouraging, but I think that one has to set it in context.
There will undoubtedly be a long list with some rather more earth
shattering and affecting issues than part P higher up the list.

Well hopefully they will just press 'Reset' and get rid of all of Blair's
and Major's socialist nonsense in one day.

No chance. They would probably have wanted to introduce some of the
unpopular things if they'd been in power, it's a lovely opportunity to
quietly leave them in place without having to take the blame for
introducing them.

--
Mike Clarke

In article , Mike Clarke wrote:
No chance. They would probably have wanted to introduce some of
the unpopular things if they'd been in power, it's a lovely
opportunity to quietly leave them in place without having to take
the blame for introducing them.

Too true. How often in the last few years have you heard about the
unparalleled wickedness of Gordon Brown's £5bn 'raid' on pension
funds (for which there was some technical economic argument AIUI).
Yet when Oliver Letwin is asked whether reversing this will be his
first priority when it comes to tax cuts his response suggests that
it's not even on his list.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , Mike wrote:

Well hopefully they will just press 'Reset' and get rid of
all of Blair's and Major's socialist nonsense in one day.


Part P is nothing to do with socialism. If anything it's a
throwback to the days of medieval guilds where only the selected
few could practice any trade or profession and the members of
same fiercely protected their monopoly. Go to Australia, which
has a seriously right-wing government, and you can't do any
electrical work unless qualified.

AND in the union, which is more difficult!

Andrew

Tony Bryer wrote:

Part P is nothing to do with socialism. If anything it's a
throwback to the days of medieval guilds where only the selected
few could practice any trade or profession and the members of
same fiercely protected their monopoly. Go to Australia, which

I can certainly see that appealing to some of the traditional labour
factions, but I would expect the part the finally "sold" government on
the idea is the possibility it may drive some of the black economy into
positions where it may be more easily monitored (and ultimately taxed).

As in: "Dear Sparkie, give us some dosh", "Sorry retired, have not
worked in years", "Oh, that is interesting, because we just demanded a
full member list from NICIEC, and you are listed as a fully paid up
member for the year!"...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Clarke wrote:
No chance. They would probably have wanted to introduce some of
the unpopular things if they'd been in power, it's a lovely
opportunity to quietly leave them in place without having to take
the blame for introducing them.

Too true. How often in the last few years have you heard about the
unparalleled wickedness of Gordon Brown's £5bn 'raid' on pension
funds (for which there was some technical economic argument AIUI).
Yet when Oliver Letwin is asked whether reversing this will be his
first priority when it comes to tax cuts his response suggests that
it's not even on his list.

That's because Letwin is a closet socialist like Major was. Maggie would
have had this sorted in weeks.

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike wrote:
Well hopefully they will just press 'Reset' and get rid of
all of Blair's and Major's socialist nonsense in one day.

Part P is nothing to do with socialism. If anything it's a
throwback to the days of medieval guilds where only the selected
few could practice any trade or profession and the members of
same fiercely protected their monopoly. Go to Australia, which
has a seriously right-wing government, and you can't do any
electrical work unless qualified.

Socialism is about controlling what people can and cannot do in their lives.
Part P seems to fit the bill quite perfectly.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:16:35 +0000 (UTC), "timycelyn"
wrote:

2. A public stink?..............

I tend to agree with all your points, and especially, by implication,
that our country is now run by petty Neo Labour jobsworths who cannot
find enough red tape for all their daft plans. But in a country that
can't raise even a half-hearted protest about the shocking state of
affairs with British justice - Belmarsh, arse-licking over Guantanamo
and the Nazis running the US administration, jury-less trials,
becoming banged up for 'acts preparatory to terrorism', acquiescence
in 'torture-lite' provided it is done abroad - I don't hold out much
hope that the general public is going to rouse its usual apathetic
self over something as relatively trivial as Part P.

MM