With my conventional, american standard oil burner for a hot water
furnace I am experiencing infrequent, delayed ignition.
At times it ignites properly and most of the time the ignition is more
or less delayed by 3 - 5 or even more seconds, resulting in fueloil
fumes residue.
All settings for the electrode are proper.
The nozzle is new and was installed without bare-hand touching.
Could the deminished quality of the oil have anything to do with it, or
is the cause to be found somewhere else?
A positive answer will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.

webster72n wrote:
With my conventional, american standard oil burner for a hot water
furnace I am experiencing infrequent, delayed ignition.
At times it ignites properly and most of the time the ignition is more
or less delayed by 3 - 5 or even more seconds, resulting in fueloil
fumes residue.
All settings for the electrode are proper.
The nozzle is new and was installed without bare-hand touching.
Could the deminished quality of the oil have anything to do with it, or
is the cause to be found somewhere else?
A positive answer will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.


I'm afraid it's unlikely anyone here will be familiar with that
particular burner, so you may not get a specific answer.

However, in general, if you're experiencing delayed/unreliable ignition
it will be due to (surprise!) poor ignition system. What do the
electrodes look like? Are they in good condition? Corroded? Is the gap
ok? How about the ignition module? how old is that? Insulation in the
transformer can degrade with age, so it may need replacing. What about
the HV cable from the ignition module to the electrode? Is the
insulation on that intact?

--
Grunff

Grunff wrote:
webster72n wrote:
With my conventional, american standard oil burner for a hot water
furnace I am experiencing infrequent, delayed ignition.
At times it ignites properly and most of the time the ignition is
more
or less delayed by 3 - 5 or even more seconds, resulting in fueloil
fumes residue.
All settings for the electrode are proper.
The nozzle is new and was installed without bare-hand touching.
Could the deminished quality of the oil have anything to do with
it, or
is the cause to be found somewhere else?
A positive answer will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.


I'm afraid it's unlikely anyone here will be familiar with that
particular burner, so you may not get a specific answer.

However, in general, if you're experiencing delayed/unreliable
ignition
it will be due to (surprise!) poor ignition system. What do the
electrodes look like? Are they in good condition? Corroded? Is the
gap
ok? How about the ignition module? how old is that? Insulation in the

transformer can degrade with age, so it may need replacing. What
about
the HV cable from the ignition module to the electrode? Is the
insulation on that intact?

--
Grunff


Thank you Grunff:

The electrodes are not corroded, just black at the end from incorrect

firing and the gap with 1/8"+ perfect & according to instructions.
The ignition module is 36 years old, but where located?
Also where is the transformer? Are they both located in the relay?
I will have to check the HV cable's insulation.

The burner itself is quite basic and contemporary, because I found
some
pertaining information on the internet.

I very much appreciate your assistance here which, to a degree, is
lifesaving.

webster72n

"webster72n" wrote in message
oups.com...
With my conventional, american standard oil burner for a hot water
furnace I am experiencing infrequent, delayed ignition.
At times it ignites properly and most of the time the ignition is more
or less delayed by 3 - 5 or even more seconds, resulting in fueloil
fumes residue.
All settings for the electrode are proper.
The nozzle is new and was installed without bare-hand touching.
Could the deminished quality of the oil have anything to do with it, or
is the cause to be found somewhere else?
A positive answer will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.


From your use of the term hot water furnace you sound as though you are at
the other side of the pond. I do not know what you mean by an american
standard type oil burner but on the off-chance it might be a simple?
pressure jet burner you could check that the positional settings of the
electrodes in relation to the burner nozzle and the blast tube/swirl plate
are correct. Also the high tension connections and the ignition transformer.
Some newer burners use an electronic ignition generator (Danfoss EB1 or
equivalent) which can and does give intermittent problems when warm. Also
the sequence control unit and the solenoid valve/coil connections.
Have you checked the mechanical coupling between the motor and oil pump and
any filters or valves between the oil tank and the pump?
You may be better off asking the burner manufacturers for advice

webster72n wrote:

The ignition module is 36 years old, but where located?
Also where is the transformer? Are they both located in the relay?

I'm afraid I really have no idea where the ignition module might be
located. The transfromer is the main component inside the ignition
module. Follow the high voltage wire from the electrode - it will take
you to the ignition module.


I will have to check the HV cable's insulation.

Good plan - at that age, it may well be very degraded.


I very much appreciate your assistance here which, to a degree, is
lifesaving.

Good luck!


--
Grunff

John wrote:
"webster72n" wrote in message
oups.com...
With my conventional, american standard oil burner for a hot water
furnace I am experiencing infrequent, delayed ignition.
At times it ignites properly and most of the time the ignition is
more
or less delayed by 3 - 5 or even more seconds, resulting in fueloil
fumes residue.
All settings for the electrode are proper.
The nozzle is new and was installed without bare-hand touching.
Could the deminished quality of the oil have anything to do with
it, or
is the cause to be found somewhere else?
A positive answer will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.


From your use of the term hot water furnace you sound as though you
are at
the other side of the pond. I do not know what you mean by an
american
standard type oil burner but on the off-chance it might be a simple?
pressure jet burner you could check that the positional settings of
the
electrodes in relation to the burner nozzle and the blast tube/swirl
plate
are correct. Also the high tension connections and the ignition
transformer.
Some newer burners use an electronic ignition generator (Danfoss EB1
or
equivalent) which can and does give intermittent problems when warm.
Also
the sequence control unit and the solenoid valve/coil connections.
Have you checked the mechanical coupling between the motor and oil
pump and
any filters or valves between the oil tank and the pump?
You may be better off asking the burner manufacturers for advice


Thank you for your input, John. Which side of the pond do you mean?
I am right here in the good old USA, Pennsylvania, to be specific.
American Standard is the make of the burner, which you correctly
assumed to be a jet burner. All my positional settings are accurate.
Everything else seems to be in order.
I clean and service both, the burner and the furnace, quite
thoroughly.
I tried to get in touch with the manufacturer, but they were
incorporated by
another company and so far I was unsuccessful. Maybe on the internet
with a
little more research.
Thanks again.

It's in the relay, Grunff, I am sure, because that's were the wires
lead to.
What puzzles me is the fact that it shuts off perfectly,only the
ignition shows problems.
To be sure, I am going to replace the two electrodes.
The quality of the fuel oil then doesn't have anything to do with my
problem?
I certainly can use some luck, Grunff.
Thank you.

webster72n

webster72n wrote:
It's in the relay, Grunff, I am sure, because that's were the wires
lead to.

Right, so the 'relay' is more than just a relay; it's an ignition module.


What puzzles me is the fact that it shuts off perfectly,only the
ignition shows problems.

No, that would be typical of a failing ignition system.


To be sure, I am going to replace the two electrodes.

Really need to check the coltage output of the ignition module - but
without specs, this is not easy.


The quality of the fuel oil then doesn't have anything to do with my
problem?

Oil is a very crude fuel anyway - it has to get pretty bad before you
start experiencing ignition problems. What makes you think you have a
quality issue?



--
Grunff

"webster72n" wrote in message
oups.com...

John wrote:
"webster72n" wrote in message
oups.com...
With my conventional, american standard oil burner for a hot water
furnace I am experiencing infrequent, delayed ignition.
At times it ignites properly and most of the time the ignition is
more
or less delayed by 3 - 5 or even more seconds, resulting in fueloil
fumes residue.
All settings for the electrode are proper.
The nozzle is new and was installed without bare-hand touching.
Could the deminished quality of the oil have anything to do with
it, or
is the cause to be found somewhere else?
A positive answer will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.


From your use of the term hot water furnace you sound as though you
are at
the other side of the pond. I do not know what you mean by an
american
standard type oil burner but on the off-chance it might be a simple?
pressure jet burner you could check that the positional settings of
the
electrodes in relation to the burner nozzle and the blast tube/swirl
plate
are correct. Also the high tension connections and the ignition
transformer.
Some newer burners use an electronic ignition generator (Danfoss EB1
or
equivalent) which can and does give intermittent problems when warm.
Also
the sequence control unit and the solenoid valve/coil connections.
Have you checked the mechanical coupling between the motor and oil
pump and
any filters or valves between the oil tank and the pump?
You may be better off asking the burner manufacturers for advice


Thank you for your input, John. Which side of the pond do you mean?

Well we are in the UK since you have asked your question in the UK d-i-y
newsgroup g


I am right here in the good old USA, Pennsylvania, to be specific.
American Standard is the make of the burner, which you correctly
assumed to be a jet burner. All my positional settings are accurate.
Everything else seems to be in order.
I clean and service both, the burner and the furnace, quite
thoroughly.
I tried to get in touch with the manufacturer, but they were
incorporated by
another company and so far I was unsuccessful. Maybe on the internet
with a
little more research.
Thanks again.

I wonder if your oil pump is starting to wear and not giving constant
pressure allways. Try fitting a pressure gauge to the test point and
observing the pressure over a longish running period. What sort of
diminished oil quality were you referring to?

"webster72n" wrote
| From your use of the term hot water furnace you sound as
| though you are at the other side of the pond.
| Thank you for your input, John. Which side of the pond do you mean?
| I am right here in the good old USA, Pennsylvania, to be specific.

We're right here in the even older Yoonited Kingdome. There's a subtle hint
in the newsgroup name. Feel free to ask about any problems you have with
electrics, blocked toilets, or deep frying turkeys :-)

Owain

Now there's a thought, John, I'll try that pressure test, yet the oil
is being fed, but not ignited properly at all times. To tell you the
truth, I've been giving all these possibilities consideration, only to
keep coming back to the ignition factor itself. and that could be
influenced by the quality of the fuel oil in my opinion. You see, John,
over here they sell you the oil "from the bottom of the barrel" so to
speak, which contains water. It is not supposed to happen, but it does.
Also for quite some time the oil contained cleaning agents to make it
burn more cleanly. That has been omitted, even though they assure me ,
it not to be so.
Where location is concerned, I figured yours correctly and exactly for
the reasons you mentioned.
What amazes me is, my search for answers "on the other side of the
pond" led me to your NG. None to be found in the whole
US of A. Nevertheless I will keep digging 'til I find my answer
and once I do, I shall let you, Grunff and Owain know about it.
Thanks to all three of you.

Cheers,

webster72n.

Hello Grunff:

If the ignition system were failing, shouldn't the symptoms be constant
instead of the unpredictable infrequency it shows?
In any event, I will check the voltage output of the ignition module.
No problem - I think.
For the rest of the story, please have a look at my last reply to John.
Thanks for your readyness to help beyond expectations.
Cheers to you too, Grunff.

webster72n.

webster72n wrote:

If the ignition system were failing, shouldn't the symptoms be constant
instead of the unpredictable infrequency it shows?

Not at all - ignition problems can be very intermittent. Various
environmental factors (temperature, humidity etc) can affect the
developed voltage, and the ability to generate a sufficient spark.


In any event, I will check the voltage output of the ignition module.
No problem - I think.
For the rest of the story, please have a look at my last reply to John.

I wouldn't rule out oil quality at this stage, but I'd want to be sure
the ignition was working 100% before digging deeper.


Thanks for your readyness to help beyond expectations.

You're welcome.


--
Grunff

Hello Grunff, John and Owain:

As promised, here is the solution to my problem, as simple as it may
sound:
According to recommendations, the ignitor tip is supposed to be 5/8"
above the nozzle center (American Standard) and 1/2" (Internet). The
gap between the two tip ends is 1/8". Those dimensions are critical, as
my manual states.
When I called the serviceman today, he went right to
the ignitor and bent the tips down to within 3/8" above the center of
the nozzle. That's all there was to it. Can you imagine my reaction?
Those recommendations in all probability are tailored for clean fuel
oil.
After going through countless trials and tribulations,
one tiny action restored normalty, even without the need of any new
parts.
But, I look at the bright side, it gave me a much better insight into
the workings of my furnace
and will enable me to service it more efficiently.
Thank you again for your assistance and may you have the best of
holidays and a healthy and prosperous New Year.

webster72n.