In article ,
Lurch writes:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:17:11 -0000, "Bert Coules"
strung together this:

And then mark for the securing screw, remove the box and drill and plug the
hole, you mean?

No, that's the daft persons way! Leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

Use bonding coat plaster -- that will hold the box in the wall
sronger than the screw would have done anyway. It can be useful
too if the brick behind has cracked to 1000 pieces in sinking
the hole, so there's nothing to screw into.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
You don't need to. Simply make it large enough and slop in a dollop of
quickset mortar. Wedge the box in place until it dries.

And then mark for the securing screw, remove the box and drill and plug
the hole, you mean? I have tried that in the past with reasonable
results; perhaps I'll give it another go. Thanks.

If you use enough mortar so it squidges up the sides, you'll not need any
fixing screws.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
They do look good from the picture. I think it is worth the fiddling
to prevent the wall being butchered out. The cable can go in the
cable
void
behind the cupboard. Surely they can be secured well, even if it
means drilling a few holes behind the units here and there.

Be easier - and neater - to make a

It woudn't.

An 'expert' on electrics and taste now. Does your hacksaw make a good job
of cutting cable too?

--
*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Lurch wrote:
Nice idea, which I have done before but only on council jobs, more
particularly in schools, rather than anywhere else.
It's not quite as rigid a structure as you imagine, although it's
still fairly rigid, it does need levelling up before fixing.
Distances between shouldn't be a problem as couplers are 35mm long,
way more than a couple of overlaps.

Also, I like to set sockets exactly equidistant between tiles on both
planes. Would mean cutting the couplers accurately - or using threaded
conduit with backing nuts, which is my preferred way.

If using tiles larger than the sockets, and cutting out the channel
reasonably accurately, you might get away without making good afterwards -
simply bridge the channel with the tiles. Using this method you can part
tile - say the bottom row - before installing the boxes, for that perfect
'catalogue' look...

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
No, that's the daft persons way! Leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

And how exactly do I plug the wall with the box in situ?

Use a masonry drill the same size as the hole, then a suitable plug and
screw. It won't have to do much. And isn't really needed if you've used a
decent mortar mix.

--
*Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
No, that's the daft persons way! Leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

Use bonding coat plaster -- that will hold the box in the wall
sronger than the screw would have done anyway.

Only snag is bonding only comes in large bags - so you'll have to dispose
of the majority as it won't keep.

Quick set cement comes in small bags and will keep for a while if kept dry.

--
*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
No, that's the daft persons way! Leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

Use bonding coat plaster -- that will hold the box in the wall
sronger than the screw would have done anyway.

Only snag is bonding only comes in large bags - so you'll have to dispose
of the majority as it won't keep.

Whilst it might become unusable for scratch coat (although I've
still used it a year past the date without problems), it will be
fine for this purpose for ages. Actually older plaster will be
better because it will set more quickly, which is normally what
you want for small patching quantities. Keep it in a dry and
preferably warm place though, with the bag resealed as well as
possible.

Quick set cement comes in small bags and will keep for a while if kept dry.


--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
They do look good from the picture. I think it is worth the fiddling
to prevent the wall being butchered out. The cable can go in the
cable
void
behind the cupboard. Surely they can be secured well, even if it
means drilling a few holes behind the units here and there.

Be easier - and neater - to make a

It woudn't.

An 'expert' on electrics and taste now.

Thank you.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:28:16 -0000, "Bert Coules"
strung together this:

Lurch,

No, that's the daft persons way! Leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

And how exactly do I plug the wall with the box in situ?

I'll say it again, leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.
Drill a hole, with a drill and masonry drill bit, through the box, and
into the masonry. Put a plug in this hole and put a screw into the
middle af the plug. Turn the screw clockwise with a suitably sized
screwdriver until tight.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch,

Thank you for your reply, if not for your sarcasm.

I'll say it again, leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

I concede that this will work if (a) the head of the screw is larger than
the outside diameter of the plug, or (b) a washer is used. But since
neither of these conditions was mentioned by either of us, it seems to me
that my question was perfectly valid and your tone quite unnecessary. I
thought this group existed for mutual support and advice, not rudeness.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

Bert Coules wrote:
Lurch,

No, that's the daft persons way! Leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

And how exactly do I plug the wall with the box in situ?

.... by doing as I do (and explained in a long thread about wall
fixings recently), use smaller wall plugs than most people seem in the
habit of using.

You don't need a *very* strong fixing for a socket back box anyway.

I just drill a 4 (or maybe 4.5) mm hole through the hole in the back
box and put a yellow plug in it. Then use a 4 x 30 or 4 x 40
TurboGold screw.

--
Chris Green

Bert Coules wrote:
Lurch,

Thank you for your reply, if not for your sarcasm.

I'll say it again, leave the cement to set then drill,
plug and screw through the box.

I concede that this will work if (a) the head of the screw is larger than
the outside diameter of the plug, or (b) a washer is used. But since
neither of these conditions was mentioned by either of us, it seems to me
that my question was perfectly valid and your tone quite unnecessary. I
thought this group existed for mutual support and advice, not rudeness.

If the head of the screw *isn't* larger than the O/D of the plug then,
to my mind, the plug is *way* too large for the screw. As I keep
repeating I use 3.5 and 4mm screws in yellow plugs which go in 4mm
diameter holes in the wall. Why use anything larger?

--
Chris Green

Chris,

Thank you for the courteous replies.

If the head of the screw *isn't* larger than the O/D of the plug then,
to my mind, the plug is *way* too large for the screw. As I keep
repeating I use 3.5 and 4mm screws in yellow plugs which go in 4mm
diameter holes in the wall. Why use anything larger?

In the case of socket boxes I'd say that the thinking behind wanting to use
a larger plug is psychological: the fixing has to hold against what seems to
be a considerable force frequently exerted against it, when plugs are
removed from sockets. What's more, that force is in the exact direction
which could pull the plug from the wall - not like, say, a wall unit or a
picture, where the force is at ninety degrees.

Given all that, those 4mm yellow plugs just seem somewhat flimsy.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
I concede that this will work if (a) the head of the screw is larger than
the outside diameter of the plug, or (b) a washer is used.

You'll need a number 6 drill, plug and screw.

But if the drill size is the same as the hole, the appropriate screw will
always have a larger head. Indeed, you'll be hard pushed to find any
woodscrew easily where the head is smaller than the hole in a backing box.

But since
neither of these conditions was mentioned by either of us, it seems to me
that my question was perfectly valid and your tone quite unnecessary. I
thought this group existed for mutual support and advice, not rudeness.

Don't worry about it. It's the way things are.
Put on your thick skin before reading.

--
*Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
In the case of socket boxes I'd say that the thinking behind wanting to
use a larger plug is psychological: the fixing has to hold against what
seems to be a considerable force frequently exerted against it, when
plugs are removed from sockets

Considerable force? *Any* wall plug and screw correctly fitted is way more
than capable of withstanding this.

Also, making good round the box even with Polyfilla type stuff will make
it plenty strong enough.

--
*Proofread carefully to see if you any words out or mispeld something *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Bert Coules wrote:
Chris,

Thank you for the courteous replies.

If the head of the screw *isn't* larger than the O/D of the plug then,
to my mind, the plug is *way* too large for the screw. As I keep
repeating I use 3.5 and 4mm screws in yellow plugs which go in 4mm
diameter holes in the wall. Why use anything larger?

In the case of socket boxes I'd say that the thinking behind wanting to use
a larger plug is psychological: the fixing has to hold against what seems to
be a considerable force frequently exerted against it, when plugs are
removed from sockets. What's more, that force is in the exact direction
which could pull the plug from the wall - not like, say, a wall unit or a
picture, where the force is at ninety degrees.

Given all that, those 4mm yellow plugs just seem somewhat flimsy.

Well you certainly can't pull my yellow plugs out.

What is more important to my mind is how tight the screw is in the
plug. As long as the plug is a snug fit in the hole in the wall (I
like to have to just tap the plugs in gently with a small hammer or
the handle of the screwdriver) and the screw is the right size for the
plug then it's going to be tight whether it's a 4mm screw in a yellow
plug or a 5mm screw in a red plug. Given that it's tight the
difference in grip between a yellow and a red one will be quite small
I would have thought.

--
Chris Green

Thanks to Dave and Chris. I'm now both educated and convinced.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:51:36 -0000, "Bert Coules"
strung together this:

it seems to me
that my question was perfectly valid and your tone quite unnecessary. I
thought this group existed for mutual support and advice, not rudeness.

Apologies, the sarcasm is a family trait I'm afraid, you should meet
my Dad, he's even worse!
Anyway, to clear up any confusion this is what I always, (95% of the
time), do when fixing metal boxes, and I do fit hundreds.
Place box on wall, drill through box and into masonry with 5.5mm
masonry bit. Insert red plug through box and into masonry and fit no.
8 screw into plug, sometimes giving it a little tap so the top of the
plug sits behind the box, and tighten.
I haven't come across another sparky yet who doesn't do this so it's a
well proven technique!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch,

Thanks for the apology, willingly accepted.

I was thrown because I tend always to think in terms of this sequence: drill
the hole, insert the plug, tap home. Thread the screw through whatever it
is you're securing, offer up the whatever-it-is and the screw together,
insert screw in plug, tighten.

So you see it hadn't occurred to me that it could be done in the way that
you described - but now that it *has* occurred to me, I'll certainly try it.
So thanks for the tip.

Incidentally, my sample of the ritzy wedge-shaped kitchen socket mounting
has just arrived. I'm off to take a look at it...

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
I was thrown because I tend always to think in terms of this sequence:
drill the hole, insert the plug, tap home. Thread the screw through
whatever it is you're securing, offer up the whatever-it-is and the
screw together, insert screw in plug, tighten.

So you see it hadn't occurred to me that it could be done in the way
that you described - but now that it *has* occurred to me, I'll
certainly try it. So thanks for the tip.

Door etc frame fixings work in this way - you drill through the frame and
then the wall at the same time, and hammer a special fixing through them
both. It give a more accurate location than doing it separately.

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave,

Door etc frame fixings work in this way - you drill through the frame and
then the wall at the same time, and hammer a special fixing through them
both. It give a more accurate location than doing it separately.

I've come across this technique with exactly that sort of special fixing;
what I hadn't realised was that it's also done with standard wallplugs.
Thanks to everyone who put me right.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
I've come across this technique with exactly that sort of special fixing;
what I hadn't realised was that it's also done with standard wallplugs.

Many people of course won't have a small enough masonry drill, as this
size is probably rather small for general use.

Thanks to everyone who put me right.

You're very welcome. ;-)

--
*When cheese gets it's picture taken, what does it say?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:49:34 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
strung together this:

Many people of course won't have a small enough masonry drill, as this
size is probably rather small for general use.

What size? If the hole in the box is smaller than 5.5mm then the
masonry bit will make it 5.5mm, or have I misunderstood what you were
saying?
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In article ,
Lurch wrote:
Many people of course won't have a small enough masonry drill, as this
size is probably rather small for general use.

What size? If the hole in the box is smaller than 5.5mm then the masonry
bit will make it 5.5mm, or have I misunderstood what you were saying?

I was just sort of rambling that perhaps most uses of wall plugs will
involve a larger size - fixing shelves etc. So all may not have small
enough plugs and a suitable drill lying around.

IIRC, the standard size hole in a metal box is 4.5mm.

--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
I've come across this technique with exactly that sort of special fixing;
what I hadn't realised was that it's also done with standard wallplugs.

Many people of course won't have a small enough masonry drill, as this
size is probably rather small for general use.

For a long time the smallest SDS drill I could find was 5mm (or even
5.5mm) but then ScrewFix suddenly added two ranges which had both 4mm
and 4.5mm ones, ideal for yellow plugs.

--
Chris Green

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Lurch wrote:
Many people of course won't have a small enough masonry drill, as this
size is probably rather small for general use.

What size? If the hole in the box is smaller than 5.5mm then the masonry
bit will make it 5.5mm, or have I misunderstood what you were saying?

I was just sort of rambling that perhaps most uses of wall plugs will
involve a larger size - fixing shelves etc. So all may not have small
enough plugs and a suitable drill lying around.

IIRC, the standard size hole in a metal box is 4.5mm.

So use a 4mm or 4.5mm drill and yellow plugs. No chance of blunting
the masonry drill on the box then.

I fix lots of quite heavy stuff with 4mm screws in yellow plugs, 4mm
screws are well strong enough (about 8 in old parlance) and they are
much more secure in yellow plugs than in red ones.

--
Chris Green

On 25 Nov 2004 13:03:56 GMT, strung together this:

(about 8 in old parlance)

Well, 4.5mm is close to no.8, so that makes 4mm a bit over no.7. (I
know you said about but for technical correctness in the archives of
google I thought I'd better point it out)!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In article ,
wrote:
I was just sort of rambling that perhaps most uses of wall plugs will
involve a larger size - fixing shelves etc. So all may not have small
enough plugs and a suitable drill lying around.

IIRC, the standard size hole in a metal box is 4.5mm.

So use a 4mm or 4.5mm drill and yellow plugs. No chance of blunting
the masonry drill on the box then.

It's what I do. Just surmising why others might not.

I fix lots of quite heavy stuff with 4mm screws in yellow plugs, 4mm
screws are well strong enough (about 8 in old parlance) and they are
much more secure in yellow plugs than in red ones.

Yup. Although as you pointed out in your other post, small SDS drills
weren't easily available. So I standardised on plugs and screws for the
smallest that was.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:12:39 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

I've ordered a sample double socket from TLC to have a look at. If they're
as dodgy as you say I'll probably give the whole idea a miss. A pity
though - they really do seem like the most stylish alternative to sinking
those damned galvanised boxes into the wall. The only other non-sinking
method I can think of is to use surface-mounted pattress boxes: terribly
ugly and intrusive.

Another way is to fix a panel over the entire wall between the worktop
and the wall cupboards, battened out to about 2"*. You can then fix as
many outlets/switches/whatever to this and the wiring is concealed
behind. In my kitchen I have 2 walls each with 4 double sockets and 2
appliance switches. I was able to fix all these to a ply panel *off* the
wall, wire it all up and then screw the panel to the battens. It is then
tiled or finished in whatever way you choose. We are very satisfied with
the results giving ample (just!) outlets for the various toasters,
grinders, kettles etc that accumulate there. I positioned standard flush
white outlets as low as possible consistent with being higher than the
majority of the likely occupiers of the worktop. In practice this turned
out to be 315mm measured to the height of the 13A earth pin.

This scheme has the bonus that it is modifiable should you want to add
any more outlets later.

* Needs to accommodate box depth plus 1/2 - 3/4" wiring clearance
behind.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
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In article ,
Phil Addison wrote:
Another way is to fix a panel over the entire wall between the worktop
and the wall cupboards, battened out to about 2"*. You can then fix as
many outlets/switches/whatever to this and the wiring is concealed
behind.

I suggested that earlier. Didn't meet with IMM's approval, so must be good.

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Phil,

Thanks for the reply.

Another way is to fix a panel over the entire wall between the worktop
and the wall cupboards, battened out to about 2"*...

Yes, that has occurred to me - and is currently the favourite method. It
does mean losing 2" or so of worktop depth, of course, but that's probably a
price worth paying.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Another way is to fix a panel over the entire wall between the worktop
and the wall cupboards, battened out to about 2"*...

Yes, that has occurred to me - and is currently the favourite method.
It does mean losing 2" or so of worktop depth, of course, but that's
probably a price worth paying.

Or as I suggested make it a fillet - ie between cupboards and wall at
approx 45 degrees, and fit the sockets into that. It could be made of
Contiboard to match the units, or tiled to match the walls. That way,
you'd not lose any worktop space.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:33:26 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Phil,

Thanks for the reply.

Another way is to fix a panel over the entire wall between the worktop
and the wall cupboards, battened out to about 2"*...

Yes, that has occurred to me - and is currently the favourite method. It
does mean losing 2" or so of worktop depth, of course, but that's probably a
price worth paying.

Yes, we don't really miss that 2 inches. 'spose you could pull the
worktop and units beneath forward by 2" to regain it though, layout
permitting

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:05:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Phil Addison wrote:
Another way is to fix a panel over the entire wall between the worktop
and the wall cupboards, battened out to about 2"*. You can then fix as
many outlets/switches/whatever to this and the wiring is concealed
behind.

I suggested that earlier.

Really? I'm coming late to this thread, but don't see that. Has the
thread had a change to the subject line? My newsreader treats that as a
new thread.

Didn't meet with IMM's approval, so must be good.

It is. All my ideas are brilliant. :-)

Phil
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Phil,

The only drawback that occurred to me about moving the base units away from
the wall is that some extra battening would presumably be required behind
the sides of the units for the fixings - that is, assuming that the standard
way of securing base units is by fixing the rear of the side panels to the
wall - is that right?

Dave,

I liked your angled fillet idea (didn't I say so at the time? If not, my
apologies) and it's still there in the list of possibilities.

Incidentally, the sample double socket I got from TLC is nicely made and
seems perfectly usable. All the fixings are concealed: the bolts which hold
the actual socket inserts into the stainless steel housing are hidden by the
push-fitting black plastic surround - as someone surmised earlier.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:50:42 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Phil,

The only drawback that occurred to me about moving the base units away from
the wall is that some extra battening would presumably be required behind
the sides of the units for the fixings - that is, assuming that the standard
way of securing base units is by fixing the rear of the side panels to the
wall - is that right?

Yes. Its usual to fix the side panels to the worktop here and there, as
well. Or is that fix the worktop to the side panels? - anyway, you
connect everything together with little plastic blocks; K-blocks, I
think they are called.

A batten behind is not a bad thing anyway - you only have to make a few
masonry plug holes into the wall, and can use wood screws to fix the
side panel brackets to the batten.

I didn't have that option because the kitchen units follow the 3 sides
of a U-shaped wall and the width of the connecting wall (which has the
kitchen window with sink under) was the exact width of the units +
standard worktop. If I had the extra 2" I would have done it.

Dave,

I liked your angled fillet idea (didn't I say so at the time? If not, my
apologies) and it's still there in the list of possibilities.

Incidentally, the sample double socket I got from TLC is nicely made and
seems perfectly usable. All the fixings are concealed: the bolts which hold
the actual socket inserts into the stainless steel housing are hidden by the
push-fitting black plastic surround - as someone surmised earlier.

Be careful - if you have worktop lights (highly recommended) under the
cupboards, and pelmets at the front (~3" deep), you will have to stoop
to see what you are doing when you plug anything into high level
sockets.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
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Phil,

Thanks for confirming about the fixings.

Be careful - if you have worktop lights (highly recommended) under the
cupboards, and pelmets at the front (~3" deep), you will have to stoop
to see what you are doing when you plug anything into high level
sockets.

I'll be placing the sockets at a height where that won't need to happen.
I'm having lights but no pelmet: I've seen a rather stylish range of lights
in individual pyramidal housings, designed to go in the angle where the
base of the wall unit meets the wall. The set of four lights plus
transformer doesn't include any sort of switch, which strikes me as slightly
odd; is it usual to connect them into the kitchen lighting circuit, so they
come on when the room lights are switched on?

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

is it usual to connect them into the kitchen lighting circuit, so they
come on when the room lights are switched on?

I prefer them on a separate switch. However, the switch might be
advantageously placed adjacent to the ceiling lighting on a dual gang switch
plate.

Christian.

Christian,

I prefer them on a separate switch. However, the switch might be
advantageously placed adjacent to the ceiling lighting on a dual gang
switch
plate.

Thanks for that thought.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:32:55 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

is it usual to connect them into the kitchen lighting circuit, so they
come on when the room lights are switched on?

I prefer them on a separate switch. However, the switch might be
advantageously placed adjacent to the ceiling lighting on a dual gang switch
plate.

That's how I have done mine. Also the kitchen light is on 2-way
switching, one by the back door and the other by the hall/kitchen door.

Phil
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