I live in a rented house, village location, oil fired, detached, old and
Grade A listed (yeah, Scotland...)

Been here since last July and the heating oil costs are scaring me a bit!

Filled the tank three times so far! 2300 litre tank at roughly £430 a
fill....

So it's heading for £1700 for the year. House is four beds, 18 radiators of
various sizes and parentage. The boiler is fairly new and is a Trianco
Eurostar. We have lots of draughty windows and doors, all single glazed.

I just wonder if that's what's to be expected with a house of this size and
age or whether the system need an overhaul. I certainly hear a lot of
gushing noises from it when it's coming on and going off.

Now we are lighting coal fires, never done it before but I remember my mum
doing it years ago!

Thanks for any help!

Steve

Ste Kearney wrote:

Hello Ste

SK| So it's heading for £1700 for the year. House is four beds,
SK| 18 radiators of various sizes and parentage. The boiler is
SK| fairly new and is a Trianco Eurostar. We have lots of
SK| draughty windows and doors, all single glazed.

I think you're entitled to be scared. That'd scare me.

For comparison, our 3-bed 1960 bungalow with ~9 rads in an exposed
position at relatively high elevation, heating and water - approx 300-
400/year. (Oil, 85kbtu Grant Euroflame)

SK| I just wonder if that's what's to be expected with a house
SK| of this size and age or whether the system need an overhaul.
SK| I certainly hear a lot of gushing noises from it when it's
SK| coming on and going off.

Possibly, but I bet you cut down your costs hugely by doing the
following:

STOP THE FECKING DRAUGHTS! No excuse these days, draft-proofing is
fast, cheap and instantly effective.

Improve roof insulation. 100mm minimum, go to 200 if you can. Again,
cheap, fast and instantly effective.

Lag hot water pipes, hot (and cold if liable to freeze) water tanks
including underfloor heating pipes.

The above will pay for themselves very quickly.

Then move onto double glazing if possible. Less likely to pay for
itself quickly and may not suit the character of the house.

If you have a cavity wall, you could insulate that - but I'm not
altogether sure that you can recoup the costs of that in a realistic
timespan.

If the rads are getting hot quickly then chances are your boiler's
working alright. I'd sort the quick stuff out first.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

Huge wrote:

We have a large (5 bed) house, exposed to the elements and we use about
2000 litres a *year*.

2000l a year for us too - 3 bed exposed and relatively uninsulated house
(but recently double glazed).

Something definitely wrong with the OP's house/system.

--
Grunff

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:13:51 +0000, Grunff wrote:

Huge wrote:

We have a large (5 bed) house, exposed to the elements and we use about
2000 litres a *year*.

2000l a year for us too - 3 bed exposed and relatively uninsulated house
(but recently double glazed).

Something definitely wrong with the OP's house/system.

I think it's the draughts. The difference a few quid's worth of "P"
profile rubber draught excluder made to my house was amazing. Don't
use the foam stuff. It's useless. You could try the "E" profile rubber
variety instead. But I like the aesthetic nature of "P" profile and
you can get it in white (I've seen the "E" profile only in brown).

MM

Subject: Heating Costs - scary!
From: Ste Kearney
Date: 24/03/04 19:21 GMT Standard Time
Message-id:

I live in a rented house, village location, oil fired, detached, old and
Grade A listed (yeah, Scotland...)

Been here since last July and the heating oil costs are scaring me a bit!

Filled the tank three times so far! 2300 litre tank at roughly £430 a
fill....

So it's heading for £1700 for the year. House is four beds, 18 radiators of
various sizes and parentage. The boiler is fairly new and is a Trianco
Eurostar. We have lots of draughty windows and doors, all single glazed.

I just wonder if that's what's to be expected with a house of this size and
age or whether the system need an overhaul. I certainly hear a lot of
gushing noises from it when it's coming on and going off.

Unless you're trying to keep it at 30 degrees C I would have thought one tank a
year would do you. Maybe there's a leak in the tank or pipework outside. If
it's rented that ought to be the owner's responsibility.

Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk)
I'm not at all sure why women like men. We're argumentative, childish,
unsociable and extremely unappealing naked. I'm quite grateful they do though.

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
Unless you're trying to keep it at 30 degrees C I would have thought one
tank a
year would do you. Maybe there's a leak in the tank or pipework outside.
If
it's rented that ought to be the owner's responsibility.

I think the key word here is Scotland !

I used to use huge amounts of gas when I lived there and was still always
cold.

It all depends on the size, type of house construction, internal
temperature, the control system and so on. If its old all these things could
work against you. 18 radiators is a lot of heat load. We have a Victorian
farmhouse with 7 bedrooms and use a similar amount of oil (with an oil fired
Aga too) and heat the house modestly. Dealing with draughts and sealing the
cellar made a huge difference to both comfort and oil consumption, but we
also improved the insulation in places as well. If you are keep the house
really warm then it could easily use this much, although if it is a normal
sized four bedroom house it does sound a lot.

Given the heating bills I would make sure the boiler is well serviced - even
a small improvement could pay for itself. TRVs are likely to pay for
themselves very quickly and could be worth fitting. However, if you are
renting, then why not try another property.

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:25:50 -0000, G&M wrote:

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
Unless you're trying to keep it at 30 degrees C I would have thought one
tank a
year would do you. Maybe there's a leak in the tank or pipework outside.
If
it's rented that ought to be the owner's responsibility.

I think the key word here is Scotland !

I used to use huge amounts of gas when I lived there and was still always
cold.

I have a 3 bed detached house with 11 radiators in the South East. I burn
about 3,500 litres pa. My weekly consumption varies very much according to
the outside temperature, from zero in the summer to 125Lites pw in the
winter. I heat the house all day.

My Trianco boiler does not make gushing noises. Maybe the odd small gurgle
when its stops.

Oil boilers need an annual service.

Michael Chare

On 24/3/04 10:31 pm, in article , "Harry
Ziman" wrote:

It all depends on the size, type of house construction, internal
temperature, the control system and so on. If its old all these things could
work against you. 18 radiators is a lot of heat load. We have a Victorian
farmhouse with 7 bedrooms and use a similar amount of oil (with an oil fired
Aga too) and heat the house modestly. Dealing with draughts and sealing the
cellar made a huge difference to both comfort and oil consumption, but we
also improved the insulation in places as well. If you are keep the house
really warm then it could easily use this much, although if it is a normal
sized four bedroom house it does sound a lot.

Given the heating bills I would make sure the boiler is well serviced - even
a small improvement could pay for itself. TRVs are likely to pay for
themselves very quickly and could be worth fitting. However, if you are
renting, then why not try another property.



Thanks for the responses, I'll give more information before I actually act
on it!

The house is old, the newest part is 1844. Although only four beds, the
house feels bigger than the six bed house I had before. I quick pacing out
and I reckon the floorplan is roughly 12m by 17m, four beds upstairs plus
largish bathroom and two separate toilet rooms, one tiny! Downstairs we have
a farmhouse kitchen, dining room, living room, study, shower/toilet and a
strange inner room that doesn't seem to have any purpose.

Although we live in Scotland it's never that cold here (Dumfriesshire).
Certainly no different than Bolton where I am from. Having said that, this
winter has been colder than usual. House is on a hill, a bit exposed but not
high up it.

The gushing and gurgling I hear are from the radiators, when the system
comes on and goes off. The boiler itself makes all the normal noises!

I normally set the thermo in the hall to 72F, I have tried to go to 80F to
see but the boiler can't keep up and reach that.

Despite this, I do love this house, and there is nowhere else around of
similar size to rent. I have five kids, and have recently jumped off the
mortgage trail with no desire to go back.

The letting agents and previous tenants, and indeed the man who fill the
tank up (vested interest!) tell me 'it's always been like that' and
'normally need to fill it four times a year..'

I don't know whether landlords have a legal responsibility to ensure heating
costs are reasonable but armed with this ammo I'm gonna find out!

I can afford the heating costs at the moment but I don't see why I should
pay for someone elses inefficient system.

There are a few draughty windows and one set of french windows behind me
particularly bad. The worst are the sash windows in the living room - they
rattle!

Thanks again!

Steve

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:13:51 +0000, Grunff wrote:


Huge wrote:


We have a large (5 bed) house, exposed to the elements and we use about
2000 litres a *year*.

2000l a year for us too - 3 bed exposed and relatively uninsulated house
(but recently double glazed).

Something definitely wrong with the OP's house/system.


I think it's the draughts. The difference a few quid's worth of "P"
profile rubber draught excluder made to my house was amazing. Don't
use the foam stuff. It's useless. You could try the "E" profile rubber
variety instead. But I like the aesthetic nature of "P" profile and
you can get it in white (I've seen the "E" profile only in brown).

MM


Definitely. 2000 quid a year is not unusual for a poorly insulated large
house.

Ste Kearney wrote:

I live in a rented house, village location, oil fired, detached, old and
Grade A listed (yeah, Scotland...)



Remember another thing. If you are heating to say 20C, an average sort
of autumn spring outside temp is 10 C, but cold weeks where the average
is below zero are going to DOUBLE your heat loss. Or more. The calcs on
my house reckoned peak heating demand would be 9Kw. Burn that for a few
weeks and it really costs.

There is also factors like sun shining in and warming the place - better
down south.

I can't quite remember what my sisters old house in sweden took to heat
- over 2 grand a year I think. Modern, fully insulated etc etc.

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:06:20 GMT, Simon Avery wrote:

Ste Kearney wrote:

Hello Ste

SK| So it's heading for £1700 for the year. House is four beds,
SK| 18 radiators of various sizes and parentage. The boiler is
SK| fairly new and is a Trianco Eurostar. We have lots of
SK| draughty windows and doors, all single glazed.

I think you're entitled to be scared. That'd scare me.

For comparison, our 3-bed 1960 bungalow with ~9 rads in an exposed
position at relatively high elevation, heating and water - approx 300-
400/year. (Oil, 85kbtu Grant Euroflame)

SK| I just wonder if that's what's to be expected with a house
SK| of this size and age or whether the system need an overhaul.
SK| I certainly hear a lot of gushing noises from it when it's
SK| coming on and going off.

Possibly, but I bet you cut down your costs hugely by doing the
following:

STOP THE FECKING DRAUGHTS! No excuse these days, draft-proofing is
fast, cheap and instantly effective.

Improve roof insulation. 100mm minimum, go to 200 if you can. Again,
cheap, fast and instantly effective.

Lag hot water pipes, hot (and cold if liable to freeze) water tanks
including underfloor heating pipes.

The above will pay for themselves very quickly.

Then move onto double glazing if possible. Less likely to pay for
itself quickly and may not suit the character of the house.

Proper double glazing with sealed units (as opposed to some secondary
glazing systems) is likely to cost £1000s maybe £4,000 - £12,000 or more
for a larger house which this clearly is.


If you have a cavity wall, you could insulate that - but I'm not
altogether sure that you can recoup the costs of that in a realistic
timespan.

You can get this done for £225 for a 3 bed house. (with £170 grants that
are available to anyone.)

A programmable thermostat which allows you to vary the temperature during
the day can also help.

Michael Chare

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:47:29 +0000 (UTC), Michael Chare
wrote:

Proper double glazing with sealed units (as opposed to some secondary
glazing systems) is likely to cost £1000s maybe £4,000 - £12,000 or more
for a larger house which this clearly is.

And £12,000 is roughly 30 years of heating bills! I'd rather keep my
slimline steel windows, maybe with double-glazed panes, which
Crittalls can supply nowadays, than put in some horrid, ugly PVC
replacements. I don't think I have seen any modern replacement windows
that look "nice".

MM

Mike Mitchell wrote:

And £12,000 is roughly 30 years of heating bills! I'd rather keep my
slimline steel windows, maybe with double-glazed panes, which
Crittalls can supply nowadays, than put in some horrid, ugly PVC
replacements. I don't think I have seen any modern replacement windows
that look "nice".

Another take - our 8 windows cost ~£1600 including fitting, and have
made a very large difference to the heating mainly by reducing draughts.

I love our clean uPCV windows which open and shut properly and keep us
warm. They're great. And I don't think they look out of place on our old
cottage at all.

--
Grunff

Mike Mitchell wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:47:29 +0000 (UTC), Michael Chare
wrote:


Proper double glazing with sealed units (as opposed to some secondary
glazing systems) is likely to cost £1000s maybe £4,000 - £12,000 or more
for a larger house which this clearly is.


And £12,000 is roughly 30 years of heating bills! I'd rather keep my
slimline steel windows, maybe with double-glazed panes, which
Crittalls can supply nowadays, than put in some horrid, ugly PVC
replacements. I don't think I have seen any modern replacement windows
that look "nice".

MM
and the OP's house is rented so I don't think he's going to double glaze it!

nick Brooks

"Ste Kearney" wrote in message
...
I live in a rented house, village location, oil fired, detached, old and
Grade A listed (yeah, Scotland...)

Been here since last July and the heating oil costs are scaring me a bit!

Filled the tank three times so far! 2300 litre tank at roughly £430 a
fill....

So it's heading for £1700 for the year. House is four beds, 18 radiators
of
various sizes and parentage. The boiler is fairly new and is a Trianco
Eurostar. We have lots of draughty windows and doors, all single glazed.

I just wonder if that's what's to be expected with a house of this size
and
age or whether the system need an overhaul. I certainly hear a lot of
gushing noises from it when it's coming on and going off.

Now we are lighting coal fires, never done it before but I remember my mum
doing it years ago!

Thanks for any help!

As you are renting, you can only draught strip the place. If your own
house, you will probably need to replace the windows to double glazed low
"e". New front door without a letter box, heavy insulation in the loft
300-400mm, maybe cavity wall insulation, seal up air cracks, etc.

When you do this, its also keeps out as well as keeping heat in, so all year
around the comfort levels will be superior. On the heating system, you could
put TRVs on each rad and superior controls.

Hi,

First draughtproof the doors and fit some secondary glazing film to
the windows.

Next if the roof insulation is inadequate see if there are grants
available and/or do a deal with the landlord to fit it.

cheers,
Pete.

In message , G&M
writes

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
Unless you're trying to keep it at 30 degrees C I would have thought one
tank a
year would do you. Maybe there's a leak in the tank or pipework outside.
If
it's rented that ought to be the owner's responsibility.

I think the key word here is Scotland !

I used to use huge amounts of gas when I lived there and was still always
cold.

Gaviscon and chili - just the job
--
geoff

Ste Kearney wrote in message ...

I live in a rented house, village location, oil fired, detached, old and
Grade A listed (yeah, Scotland...)

Been here since last July and the heating oil costs are scaring me a bit!

Filled the tank three times so far! 2300 litre tank at roughly £430 a
fill....

So it's heading for £1700 for the year. House is four beds, 18 radiators of
various sizes and parentage. The boiler is fairly new and is a Trianco
Eurostar. We have lots of draughty windows and doors, all single glazed.

I just wonder if that's what's to be expected with a house of this size and
age or whether the system need an overhaul. I certainly hear a lot of
gushing noises from it when it's coming on and going off.

Now we are lighting coal fires, never done it before but I remember my mum
doing it years ago!

Thanks for any help!

Steve


At this rate your landlord is going to lose tenant after tenant,
losing money. I'd put together an info pack for landlord explaining
a. how much theyre gonna lose dues to repeat quitters
b. how much heating cost could be saved with some not too pricey
measures
c. what thatll cost
d. what the payback period is for the landlord.

Oh, and then say if its not done in 2 months youre quitting.

Now with that there is a good chance your landlord may come along and
sort it out for you, free.



draught proofing windows, doors, letter boxes, any holes in walls, etc

floor might be a cause of cold if you have old floorboards over earth.
COld air flows under the floor and comes throught the gaps. Fill
cracks with papier mache or put sheet wood over or under the boards.

Secondary glazing, glass, plastic or even film (very cheap)

heavy curtains or liners

loft insulation 8"

fit TRVs

fit programmable thermostat.

and the obvious, wear a jacket and turn the heat down to 16.

Finally if he wants to go to town, batten insulate and board the outer
walls.


Some of this is so cheap to do it'll pay back within a year -
esecially with your bills.


Regards, NT

"Ste Kearney" wrote in message
. ..

SNIP

Thanks for the responses, I'll give more information before I actually act
on it!

The house is old, the newest part is 1844. Although only four beds, the
house feels bigger than the six bed house I had before. I quick pacing out
and I reckon the floorplan is roughly 12m by 17m, four beds upstairs plus
largish bathroom and two separate toilet rooms, one tiny! Downstairs we
have
a farmhouse kitchen, dining room, living room, study, shower/toilet and a
strange inner room that doesn't seem to have any purpose.

Although we live in Scotland it's never that cold here (Dumfriesshire).
Certainly no different than Bolton where I am from. Having said that, this
winter has been colder than usual. House is on a hill, a bit exposed but
not
high up it.

The gushing and gurgling I hear are from the radiators, when the system
comes on and goes off. The boiler itself makes all the normal noises!

That sounds as though you have a problem with air entrainment or hydrogen in
the system. It is undesirable but not likely to be the cause of your
phenomenal fuel consumption.

I normally set the thermo in the hall to 72F, I have tried to go to 80F to
see but the boiler can't keep up and reach that.

Now we come to a very considerable factor in your problem. Why are you
setting the hall thermostat that high? The hall is not usually a "living"
room so its more usual to expect lower temperature than that, somewhere in
the region of 60 to 65 degreesF.
Having said that it does require the radiator sizing to conform to certain
basic provisos.
You might find it a useful exercise to download the Myson Heat Loss Manager
program and run your rooms through it to determine what heatload the house
"should" have. Armed with that info you can determine whether your radiators
are in the right ballpark.

Despite this, I do love this house, and there is nowhere else around of
similar size to rent. I have five kids, and have recently jumped off the
mortgage trail with no desire to go back.

The letting agents and previous tenants, and indeed the man who fill the
tank up (vested interest!) tell me 'it's always been like that' and
'normally need to fill it four times a year..'

I don't know whether landlords have a legal responsibility to ensure
heating
costs are reasonable but armed with this ammo I'm gonna find out!

I don't think they have a special requirements for old or existing systems
although a new system would be expected to conform to the new building regs
with attendant minimum efficiency standards. Please bear in mind that these
are based on assumed comfort temperatures and if you should choose to set
your thermostats at much higher levels then with the best will in the world
you will use excessive amounts of fuel

I can afford the heating costs at the moment but I don't see why I should
pay for someone elses inefficient system.

There are a few draughty windows and one set of french windows behind me
particularly bad. The worst are the sash windows in the living room - they
rattle!

Draughts will allow your expensive heat to leak away so you should take all
reasonable steps to minimise them. It is useful to have "some" adventitious
ventilation to supply combustion air to fires and allow the inhabitants to
breathe but you sound as though you are trying to heat Dumfries.
You should also take a look at the insulation levels and there are various
leaflets usually aimed at the elderly giving hints and tips about keeping
warm. Reading them may give some useful ideas in reducing your fuel usage by
saving heat.

In message , Ste Kearney
writes
Despite this, I do love this house, and there is nowhere else around of
similar size to rent. I have five kids, and have recently jumped off the
mortgage trail with no desire to go back.


snip.
I can afford the heating costs at the moment but I don't see why I should
pay for someone elses inefficient system.


surely the former is the answer to the latter......
--
Chris French, Leeds

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:47:29 +0000 (UTC), Michael Chare
wrote:


Proper double glazing with sealed units (as opposed to some secondary
glazing systems) is likely to cost £1000s maybe £4,000 - £12,000 or more
for a larger house which this clearly is.


And £12,000 is roughly 30 years of heating bills! I'd rather keep my
slimline steel windows, maybe with double-glazed panes, which
Crittalls can supply nowadays, than put in some horrid, ugly PVC
replacements. I don't think I have seen any modern replacement windows
that look "nice".


Unless you have very large windows, once draughtprrofed DG has very
little added effect on overall heatloss, but does reduce condensation
markedly.

The tricks to warm houses and low fuel bills are, in order of importance
and relative bang fopr teh buck

- draughtproofing
- loft insulation - lots
- new boiler
- wall inuslation
- floor insulation
- lined curtains
and last and very much least
- double glazing.


MM

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:47:29 +0000 (UTC), Michael Chare
wrote:


Proper double glazing with sealed units (as opposed to some secondary
glazing systems) is likely to cost £1000s maybe £4,000 - £12,000 or
more
for a larger house which this clearly is.


And £12,000 is roughly 30 years of heating bills! I'd rather keep my
slimline steel windows, maybe with double-glazed panes, which
Crittalls can supply nowadays, than put in some horrid, ugly PVC
replacements. I don't think I have seen any modern replacement windows
that look "nice".


Unless you have very large windows, once draughtprrofed DG has very
little added effect on overall heatloss, but does reduce condensation
markedly.

The tricks to warm houses and low fuel bills are, in order of importance
and relative bang fopr teh buck

- draughtproofing
- loft insulation - lots
- new boiler
- wall inuslation
- floor insulation
- lined curtains
and last and very much least
- double glazing.

Double glazing, double low "e" is better and triple glazed far better still,
reduces the cold spot in a room where windows are. This means you can use
the whole of your room space in winter. With single glazing, you find that
people naturally sit towards the inside of the room.

Double glazing is worth for many reasons.

Ste Kearney wrote:
There are a few draughty windows and one set of french windows
behind me particularly bad. The worst are the sash windows in
the living room - they rattle!

That's very irritating. Cut some small wedges of timber using
a tenon saw. They should be about 1" long, 1/2" wide, and
taper from about 1/8" down to 1/32". These can be pushed
between the sliding sashes and the parting/staff beads.
This will push the window up to the bead, and stop it
rattling. It will also cut down on draughts. If you can't
be bothered with cutting wedges, cut up some cardboard
with scissors, and push a few bits of that in.


J.B.