Finally fed up with the un-reliability of my Potterton Envoy 80
Condensing Boiler, I asked the BG chap who was fixing it (for the 3rd
time this year) what it would cost to replace.
He replied that he was aware that BG was bit dear but he thought that
they had now seen sense and could do a very simple boiler swop for a
sensible price.
His guess was that it could be done for a price which looked to me
like the full retail price for the new boiler (inc VAT) plus 75% for
labour. It seemed OK, say £800 + £600 = £1400. Dear but OK-ish,
despite the fact that BG would be charging about £600 for probably a
day's work and minimal materials, I agreed to get a quote. The
chap from BG today quoted £2370 inc VAT, net of all sorts of discounts
since I have a 3-star contract.

Yes, it includes their magical Powerflush, "mandatory", it seems, to
meet the boiler manufacturer's performance reqs (?). "How long does
the flush take?", I asked. "Maybe as long as 4 hours", he replied.
£300 plus VAT! What an hourly rate, I should be so lucky.
The the first item on the quote, installing the boiler, a BG RD 428
(can't find the price for it 'cos it's their own but it can't be worth
more than £700-800 inc VAT wholesale), is £ 1647 +VAT = £1,935! This
implies over a thousand pounds for labour and the almost no parts
needed!

Before you ask, the flue is not included in the price above, it's
another £153 installed for what's probably only a £40-60 item.
Additionally , of course, there's the "Connect Boiler Electrics &
test" @ £68.18 +VAT = £80ish. Not part of the "Install Boiler" stuff
above. No, naturally, installing a boiler does not involve conecting
the wires, too.

How about the £32 " Waste disposal" charge. The old boiler, I
suppose, but VAT will also be added to this as well. I could drive it
to the dump for less than £1, indeed the old boiler is so small I
could break it up and put in my wheelie-bin!

The only concession I could gain was that I could do the earth bonding
on the meter and boiler, "'cos that would be very expensive and since
I didn't have it on the old bolier and it didn't matter that much".

Oh, I've just noted "Fit filling loop" @ £68 +VAT . I suppose that
the one I've got already isn't good enough or the one they want to fit
has more gold plate!

SO:

Assume a boiler costs £800 full retail inc VAT, what is a fair total
price (given that the fitter gets the trade discount on the boiler).
Also assume that it can go into an outside boiler-room on a reasonably
like-for-like basis?
Any extras can be added on.

PS I do get the services of a "Quality Control Manager".
Someone to inspect the work done by the subs they dump such simple
lobs onto!

"Timbrook99" wrote in message
om...

Snip snip
Assume a boiler costs £800 full retail inc VAT, what is a fair total
price (given that the fitter gets the trade discount on the boiler).
Also assume that it can go into an outside boiler-room on a reasonably
like-for-like basis?
Any extras can be added on.

PS I do get the services of a "Quality Control Manager".
Someone to inspect the work done by the subs they dump such simple
lobs onto!

We've just had our old boiler (28 year old Glow-worm) replaced and had a
similar quote from BG. The great difficulty we had was finding someone to
quote, some engineers we called didn't turn up. Finally we found someone
local on the Corgi website. He was very professional, and did the whole job
on his own.

He took out the old floor mounted boiler from the kitchen and fitted the new
Bosch R28 HE System Condensing boiler in the airing cupboard on the 1st
floor, upgraded the system to fully pumped, fitted new chimney through a
chimney breast, fitted new electronic control and thermostat to the
cylinder, TRVs around the house, did the electrics and removed all the
rubbish. He charged £1,735 incl. VAT. We did get a quote a bit cheaper from
a young guy a couple of years out of school, but we decided to go for
experience.

Peter.

In message , Timbrook99
writes
Finally fed up with the un-reliability of my Potterton Envoy 80
Condensing Boiler, I asked the BG chap who was fixing it (for the 3rd
time this year) what it would cost to replace.
He replied that he was aware that BG was bit dear but he thought that
they had now seen sense and could do a very simple boiler swop for a
sensible price.
His guess was that it could be done for a price which looked to me
like the full retail price for the new boiler (inc VAT) plus 75% for
labour. It seemed OK, say £800 + £600 = £1400. Dear but OK-ish,
despite the fact that BG would be charging about £600 for probably a
day's work and minimal materials, I agreed to get a quote. The
chap from BG today quoted £2370 inc VAT, net of all sorts of discounts
since I have a 3-star contract.


Well, that sounds a good price to me

.... For BG, of course

--
geoff

"Timbrook99" wrote in message
om...
Finally fed up with the un-reliability of my Potterton Envoy 80
Condensing Boiler, I asked the BG chap who was fixing it (for the 3rd
time this year) what it would cost to replace.
He replied that he was aware that BG was bit dear but he thought that
they had now seen sense and could do a very simple boiler swop for a
sensible price.
His guess was that it could be done for a price which looked to me
like the full retail price for the new boiler (inc VAT) plus 75% for
labour. It seemed OK, say £800 + £600 = £1400. Dear but OK-ish,
despite the fact that BG would be charging about £600 for probably a
day's work and minimal materials, I agreed to get a quote. The
chap from BG today quoted £2370 inc VAT, net of all sorts of discounts
since I have a 3-star contract.


We had exactly the same thing. Obviously they have to charge for all the
time it takes to come up with some of the rubbish they tell you when they
quote. We eventually got it fitted by a local company for just under £1000
cheaper than BG (although to be fair I did board and put the light up in the
loft myself to save a bit of cash). Interesting thing was, the bloke who
fitted it said that they do fitting for BG and there was a fair chance that
if we'd gone with BG we'd have probably ended up with him fitting it anyway.

You have to laugh. Which I did when the BG man showed me the "powerflush"
video on his laptop...

Jon

If you want an Envoy for spares (working when removed) let me
know. Collect SW London.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Well, that sounds a good price to me

... For BG, of course

--
geoff

The problem is that whilst British Gas frequently perform a poor to mediocre
job, and make a high charge, their salesmen will visit, and they seem to be
able to procure the labour to carry out the work. Getting anyone else to
quote, let alone carry out the work can be difficult.

Most gas installers seem to have far more work than time to carry it out,
whilst British Gas have to pay for expensive adverts to intimidate people
into changing their boilers for fear they will be without heat in the
winter. (I am referring the "When is knock knock not funny - when it is
your boiler packing in" advert.)

James




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 12/07/2004

Unbelievable..
I just bought a new Vaillant combi for £700 (inc vat) With the flue kit
(rear kit + 90 deg elbow + 500mm extension), Horstmann timer and digital
thermostat it brought that to about £800. Changed the old Potterton and
cylinder system to a combi with my father who has done a fair bit of
plumbing.
The boiler came fitted with a filling loop, but I had already bought one for
£6.
Used that to connect the mains to the rad circuit and we did a d.i.y
'powerflush' of each rad, worked a treat.
Sounds like BG could sell double glazing..

Graham

"Timbrook99" wrote in message
om...
Finally fed up with the un-reliability of my Potterton Envoy 80
Condensing Boiler, I asked the BG chap who was fixing it (for the 3rd
time this year) what it would cost to replace.
He replied that he was aware that BG was bit dear but he thought that
they had now seen sense and could do a very simple boiler swop for a
sensible price.
His guess was that it could be done for a price which looked to me
like the full retail price for the new boiler (inc VAT) plus 75% for
labour. It seemed OK, say £800 + £600 = £1400. Dear but OK-ish,
despite the fact that BG would be charging about £600 for probably a
day's work and minimal materials, I agreed to get a quote. The
chap from BG today quoted £2370 inc VAT, net of all sorts of discounts
since I have a 3-star contract.

Yes, it includes their magical Powerflush, "mandatory", it seems, to
meet the boiler manufacturer's performance reqs (?). "How long does
the flush take?", I asked. "Maybe as long as 4 hours", he replied.
£300 plus VAT! What an hourly rate, I should be so lucky.
The the first item on the quote, installing the boiler, a BG RD 428
(can't find the price for it 'cos it's their own but it can't be worth
more than £700-800 inc VAT wholesale), is £ 1647 +VAT = £1,935! This
implies over a thousand pounds for labour and the almost no parts
needed!

Before you ask, the flue is not included in the price above, it's
another £153 installed for what's probably only a £40-60 item.
Additionally , of course, there's the "Connect Boiler Electrics &
test" @ £68.18 +VAT = £80ish. Not part of the "Install Boiler" stuff
above. No, naturally, installing a boiler does not involve conecting
the wires, too.

How about the £32 " Waste disposal" charge. The old boiler, I
suppose, but VAT will also be added to this as well. I could drive it
to the dump for less than £1, indeed the old boiler is so small I
could break it up and put in my wheelie-bin!

The only concession I could gain was that I could do the earth bonding
on the meter and boiler, "'cos that would be very expensive and since
I didn't have it on the old bolier and it didn't matter that much".

Oh, I've just noted "Fit filling loop" @ £68 +VAT . I suppose that
the one I've got already isn't good enough or the one they want to fit
has more gold plate!

SO:

Assume a boiler costs £800 full retail inc VAT, what is a fair total
price (given that the fitter gets the trade discount on the boiler).
Also assume that it can go into an outside boiler-room on a reasonably
like-for-like basis?
Any extras can be added on.

PS I do get the services of a "Quality Control Manager".
Someone to inspect the work done by the subs they dump such simple
lobs onto!

In message , James
writes



Well, that sounds a good price to me

... For BG, of course

--
geoff

The problem is that whilst British Gas frequently perform a poor to mediocre
job, and make a high charge, their salesmen will visit, and they seem to be
able to procure the labour to carry out the work. Getting anyone else to
quote, let alone carry out the work can be difficult.

Most gas installers seem to have far more work than time to carry it out,
whilst British Gas have to pay for expensive adverts to intimidate people
into changing their boilers for fear they will be without heat in the
winter. (I am referring the "When is knock knock not funny - when it is
your boiler packing in" advert.)

On a slightly different tack,

Anyone thinking of replacing their boiler should get it done now,
otherwise, winter will be upon us and then April and then it will be a
condensing boiler or nothing

--
geoff

In message , Jon
writes

We had exactly the same thing. Obviously they have to charge for all the
time it takes to come up with some of the rubbish they tell you when they
quote. We eventually got it fitted by a local company for just under £1000
cheaper than BG (although to be fair I did board and put the light up in the
loft myself to save a bit of cash). Interesting thing was, the bloke who
fitted it said that they do fitting for BG and there was a fair chance that
if we'd gone with BG we'd have probably ended up with him fitting it anyway.

You have to laugh. Which I did when the BG man showed me the "powerflush"
video on his laptop...

Right ...

I HAVE to get them in for a quote, I cant resist any longer

--
geoff

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:32:09 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jon
writes

We had exactly the same thing. Obviously they have to charge for all the
time it takes to come up with some of the rubbish they tell you when they
quote. We eventually got it fitted by a local company for just under £1000
cheaper than BG (although to be fair I did board and put the light up in the
loft myself to save a bit of cash). Interesting thing was, the bloke who
fitted it said that they do fitting for BG and there was a fair chance that
if we'd gone with BG we'd have probably ended up with him fitting it anyway.

You have to laugh. Which I did when the BG man showed me the "powerflush"
video on his laptop...

Right ...

I HAVE to get them in for a quote, I cant resist any longer


Don't forget to park the Merc round the corner and claim poverty.

Also make sure that you arrange the seating approximating a triangle
such that you sit at one point, your wife at another and the salesman
at the third and such that he can't look at both of you at the same
time. This is a very disarming technique and you will find that DG
and possibly BG salesmen are taught to make sure that both partners
are there and sitting together.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:32:09 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jon
writes

We had exactly the same thing. Obviously they have to charge for all the
time it takes to come up with some of the rubbish they tell you when they
quote. We eventually got it fitted by a local company for just under £1000
cheaper than BG (although to be fair I did board and put the light up in the
loft myself to save a bit of cash). Interesting thing was, the bloke who
fitted it said that they do fitting for BG and there was a fair chance that
if we'd gone with BG we'd have probably ended up with him fitting it anyway.

You have to laugh. Which I did when the BG man showed me the "powerflush"
video on his laptop...

Right ...

I HAVE to get them in for a quote, I cant resist any longer


Don't forget to park the Merc round the corner and claim poverty.

Also make sure that you arrange the seating approximating a triangle
such that you sit at one point, your wife at another and the salesman
at the third and such that he can't look at both of you at the same
time. This is a very disarming technique and you will find that DG
and possibly BG salesmen are taught to make sure that both partners
are there and sitting together.

.... Camcorder discretely placed on the piano

I didn't think of sitting apart, good point

Of course, it's academic since there's no way they'd make a sale.

My only worry would be that it would be someone I know

--
geoff

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:39:47 GMT, raden wrote:



I HAVE to get them in for a quote, I cant resist any longer


Don't forget to park the Merc round the corner and claim poverty.

Also make sure that you arrange the seating approximating a triangle
such that you sit at one point, your wife at another and the salesman
at the third and such that he can't look at both of you at the same
time. This is a very disarming technique and you will find that DG
and possibly BG salesmen are taught to make sure that both partners
are there and sitting together.

... Camcorder discretely placed on the piano

I didn't think of sitting apart, good point

Effective technique for any sell-in-the-home situation.

Another one is to arrange for a regular distraction outside the room
every 10 minutes or so that each of you alternately has to deal with.


Of course, it's academic since there's no way they'd make a sale.

My only worry would be that it would be someone I know

Do you think that they sub out the quoting as well as the fitting?

This would imply that the sub contract fitter would have sight of the
quote and know BG's margin. However, they can probably guess quite
well.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Timbrook99 wrote:

The
chap from BG today quoted £2370 inc VAT, net of all sorts of discounts
since I have a 3-star contract.

SNIP

I had a complete central heating install 4 years ago. One of the firms
who quoted was BG, a good comprehensive quote but way too expensive. In
the end I went with a large local firm, well under BG's price,not happy
with the local firm, but that is another story. Anyway over the next 6
months and more I kept receiving letters from BG asking if I wanted them
to do the work, each one was a lower price than the previous, until
eventually it was the second cheapest quote I had. so if you can wait,
do so and see what happens. ;-)

Andy Hall wrote:

Don't forget to park the Merc round the corner and claim poverty.

Also make sure that you arrange the seating approximating a triangle
such that you sit at one point, your wife at another and the salesman
at the third and such that he can't look at both of you at the same
time. This is a very disarming technique and you will find that DG and
possibly BG salesmen are taught to make sure that both partners are
there and sitting together.

Yes, it is a very powerful technique - but it's your home, so you can
make sure it works for you, not against you.

Remember that you have the initiative when the salesman arrives. You are
the one who graciously invites him to sit down... exactly where you
indicate.

The first time we did that, we were in the market for DG. Having been
amply warned by the pushy tone of the initial phone call, we rearranged
the furniture so that we could sit in armchairs on either side of the
sofa. We then seated the salesman in the middle of the sofa, so that we
could stay in eye contact very easily, but he could only work on us one
at a time.

This manipulative stuff is very much against our nature, and we had felt
quite guilty when setting it up. But then the guy rolled up in a
Porsche, registration something like "REP 2", and all our doubts
disappeared!

(A destabilising effect that we hadn't anticipated was that between the
two sofa cushions runs something like the San Andreas Fault. But how
could we have known that - we never sit there, do we? Oh well, too
bad... )

He didn't get the order either.


--
Ian White
Abingdon, England

Andy Hall wrote:
I didn't think of sitting apart, good point

Effective technique for any sell-in-the-home situation.

Another one is to arrange for a regular distraction outside the room
every 10 minutes or so that each of you alternately has to deal with.


And leave him in the perfect situation - one-on-one, and able to tell
different stories to each of you?


--
Ian White
Abingdon, England

Anyone thinking of replacing their boiler should get it done now,
otherwise, winter will be upon us and then April and then it will be a
condensing boiler or nothing

Is there anything "wrong" with condensers as such, or is it that there
more expensive or has a GORGI got to install it?....
--
Tony Sayer

On 30 Sep 2004 13:43:54 -0700, (Timbrook99)
wrote:

Finally fed up with the un-reliability of my Potterton Envoy 80
Condensing Boiler, I asked the BG chap who was fixing it (for the 3rd
time this year) what it would cost to replace.
Tale of woe re BG quote snipped...

Oh here i go again,,ok cards on the table, I started work as a BG
apprentice in 1980 and worked for them until the birth of Transco in
about 1995 was it?.

The way people talk about BG quotes, one could be forgiven for
thinking that they are still a nationalised industry. You do not have
to go to BG for your central heating installation, you can go anywhere
you like!. BG are a commercial operation, they are out there with all
the other heating installers and are not subsidised in any way shape
or form.

It follows that if they are quoting on the high side, they must still
be getting the work, otherwise they would quickly realise this and
would either adjust their quotes accordingly or lose such a large
amount of business that they would cease to trade.

They must therefore be getting the work. Why then?. Simply becuase
people trust them (rightly or wrongly) and becuase they are big enough
to provide a reliable backup should things go wrong.

I fitted central heating as a BG employee for years. At one stage they
took the decision that it was too costly for me to do it so they
engaged contractors to do it. Many an abortion was done, the most
appalling work, not even technically correct, houses messed up,
customers in tears. They did this for 3 or 4 years. Who went back to
put it right? me ,muggins.

Now then, BG run a big operation with big overheads. They have
associated big costs, hence quotes are higher. Thats it. Its a free
market so you can go where you like for your quote and accpet the one
you want.

joe

Change the 900 to 670 in the return email address to reply

On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:35:42 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Anyone thinking of replacing their boiler should get it done now,
otherwise, winter will be upon us and then April and then it will be a
condensing boiler or nothing

Is there anything "wrong" with condensers as such, or is it that there
more expensive or has a GORGI got to install it?....
no thres nothing wrong with them its just that its slightly more
complex technology and some people be afeared of em...!
Change the 900 to 670 in the return email address to reply

On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 09:57:20 +0100, Ian White
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
I didn't think of sitting apart, good point

Effective technique for any sell-in-the-home situation.

Another one is to arrange for a regular distraction outside the room
every 10 minutes or so that each of you alternately has to deal with.


And leave him in the perfect situation - one-on-one, and able to tell
different stories to each of you?

No... That's why you keep the time short and make it disruptive - and
ideally discuss the "distraction".

Of course this is for if you don't feel thast you can control the
situation.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 23:00:27 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

Also make sure that you arrange the seating approximating a triangle
such that you sit at one point, your wife at another and the salesman
at the third and such that he can't look at both of you at the same
time. This is a very disarming technique and you will find that DG
and possibly BG salesmen are taught to make sure that both partners
are there and sitting together.

We did that with the DG guy...great fun!

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!

In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 23:00:27 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

Also make sure that you arrange the seating approximating a triangle
such that you sit at one point, your wife at another and the salesman
at the third and such that he can't look at both of you at the same
time. This is a very disarming technique and you will find that DG
and possibly BG salesmen are taught to make sure that both partners
are there and sitting together.

We did that with the DG guy...great fun!


Who'd want to be a salesman;(

after all, a lot of us depend on them to keep us employed don't we?....
--
Tony Sayer

Follow-up
At the weekend I went to a local Co., where I live.. CORGI etc.

Very grown up chat about boiler sizing, whether to use existing
expansion thingy or buy a system boiler with it in-built and so on.

"Let's start with the fact that you know what the boilers cost", said
the bloke.
"We really do think power flushing is a good idea and since you've got
a biggish house with lots of rads the install will almost certainly go
into the second day", he added.

"So", he said, "I'm afraid we'll have to charge £4-500 for the labour
and bits on top of discounted price for the boiler".

This works better than £1,000 less than BG. These guys are CORGI
etc.,so warranties should be OK. When I asked when they could do it,
he said, (believe it or not!), "Well not next week, 'cos we're quite
busy but certainly by mid-end Oct!"

I've been treated like a grown up and I think I'm happy to give them
the business and since it' all been up-front, prepared to lob in a few
more quid, if necessary for unforeseens!

A bit of a no brainer really. He didn't try to sell the "British Gas
own brand" being the only boiler offered by the BG salesperson but
discussed their experience across the range.

Hooray for the liitle bloke!

In message , tony sayer
writes
Anyone thinking of replacing their boiler should get it done now,
otherwise, winter will be upon us and then April and then it will be a
condensing boiler or nothing

Is there anything "wrong" with condensers as such, or is it that there
more expensive or has a GORGI got to install it?....

Well I was thinking
1) more expensive
2) more expensive parts
3) most installers don't have a clue


--
geoff

In message , Ian White
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
I didn't think of sitting apart, good point

Effective technique for any sell-in-the-home situation.

Another one is to arrange for a regular distraction outside the room
every 10 minutes or so that each of you alternately has to deal with.


And leave him in the perfect situation - one-on-one, and able to tell
different stories to each of you?

There would be no perfect situation (well he might think he has for a
while)

It would be an evening's entertainment, no more

.... and I do like a good wind up

Not forgetting that I prolly know considerably more that the bod on the
other sofa, and will prolly have a brand new boiler sitting just outside
the kitchen door

--
geoff

In message , tarquinlinbin
writes

It follows that if they are quoting on the high side, they must still
be getting the work, otherwise they would quickly realise this and
would either adjust their quotes accordingly or lose such a large
amount of business that they would cease to trade.

Yes, they are playing on the name


Now then, BG run a big operation with big overheads. They have
associated big costs, hence quotes are higher.

So ?

They can't compete on a level playing field

--
geoff

raden Wrote:

Another one is to arrange for a regular distraction outside the room
every 10 minutes or so that each of you alternately has to deal with.


And leave him in the perfect situation - one-on-one, and able to tell
different stories to each of you?

There would be no perfect situation (well he might think he has for a
while)

It would be an evening's entertainment, no more

... and I do like a good wind up

Not forgetting that I prolly know considerably more that the bod on the
other sofa, and will prolly have a brand new boiler sitting just
outside the kitchen door

That's just evil, taking advantage of people who think they can sell
anything, even though they know absolutely nothing about...

Oh, all right then.


--
Ian White
Abingdon, England

In article , raden
writes
In message , tarquinlinbin
writes

It follows that if they are quoting on the high side, they must still
be getting the work, otherwise they would quickly realise this and
would either adjust their quotes accordingly or lose such a large
amount of business that they would cease to trade.

Yes, they are playing on the name


Now then, BG run a big operation with big overheads. They have
associated big costs, hence quotes are higher.

So ?

They can't compete on a level playing field


Its Joe public really, look at my little sis for example. Still get the
phone from good 'ole BT, though they have DAC'sed the phone line with
next door, so its screwed the net dial up to 28 K if that. Good old
Eastern electricity still provide the power, and good ole British gas
still provide the Gas, and guess what?, good old BG still have a
maintenance contract on the whole lot so she can sleep soundly at
night;(

I change me power suppliers more often than I have sock transplants
--
Tony Sayer

UPDATE

Follow-up
At the weekend I went to a local Co., where I live.. CORGI etc.

Very grown up chat about boiler sizing, whether to use existing
expansion thingy or buy a system boiler with it in-built and so on.

"Let's start with the fact that you know what the boilers cost", said
the bloke.
"We really do think power flushing is a good idea and since you've got
a biggish house with lots of rads the install will almost certainly go
into the second day", he added.

"So", he said, "I'm afraid we'll have to charge £4-500 for the labour
and bits on top of discounted price for the boiler".

This works better than £1,000 less than BG. These guys are CORGI
etc., so warranties should be OK. When I asked when they could do it,
he said, (believe it or not!), "Well not next week, 'cos we're quite
busy but certainly by mid-end Oct!"

I've been treated like a grown up and I think I'm happy to give them
the business and since it' all been up-front, prepared to lob in a few
more quid, if necessary for unforeseens!

A bit of a no brainer really. He didn't try to sell the "British Gas
own brand" being the only boiler offered by the BG salesperson but
discussed their experience across the range.

Hooray for the little bloke!