I tried to post this in USA, but I could not find any intelligent
response to the issues I brought up. It looks like most of Americans
operate on the "if it ain't broken do not fix it" principle, comes
from proper upbringing and excellent educational system. Please try to
bear with me and my lack of knowledge on the subject as I am not a
specialist in this particular field.

Here is what I have:

1. I have 4000 sq. ft residence in Chicago land with many glass
windows facing west (this helps a lot in the winter and is absolutely
miserable during summer)
2. Two older (10 years) Carrier or Bryant (who cares) A/C units 3 ton
each per floor
3. Two considerably oversized 110000 Input BTU Carrier 80 plus 2
forced air gas heaters
4. Two 50 Gal gas water heaters
5. Well water (private well) bringing very hard water at 53F all year
6. A retention pond outside the residence where I can hopefully
discharge processed water.

Here is the list of known issues which I have to resolve before I
embark on this project:

1. Ensure consistent supply of well water inside the house @ 30-40
GPM??!!
2. Provide adequate well water conditioning (can't use chemical water
softener due to prohibitive cost and maintenance) in order to avoid
any scaling and possible damage to extensive future plumbing set up,
heat exchangers, etc.. I heard that there was a new development in
water treatment by Honeywell available only in Europe.
3. Find very efficient water/air and air/air heat exchangers which of
course would be a function of size, material, GPM input and output T.
4. Find very efficient all electrical on-demand hot water boiler, I am
open to all suggestions from your guys because this technology is
light years ahead in Europe.
5. Install proper attic ventilation (Attic Fans)

Here is my plan of revamping the whole set-up: First of all, I am
planning to use water as a main cooling and heating media. Secondly, I
would like to use extensively smart ventilation in order to reduce
heat/cooling load and conserve well water as much as I can (I know
that I have a pretty strong well but still pulling 15-30 GPM to cool a
house is a scary prospect).

While most builders concern is focused on home air tightness and size
of the mechanical systems, proper ventilation of the home is often
overlooked. Also, in terms of indoor air quality and pollution
control, ventilation may be even more important. For instance, in my
house, the only mechanical ventilation systems installed are 3 poorly
made and noisy bathroom fans (two upstairs and one downstairs). These
fans are seldom used for extended periods due to their high noise
level, and are completely inadequate for ensuring proper ventilation
to an entire house.

I am also planning to take the air from solar heated areas of the
house (including the attic) and distribute it all around the house
during the winter time. Obviously, during summer I would like to use
strategically installed exhaust fans to pull very hot and humid air
from those areas of the house were I have high vaulted ceilings.
However in this particular case I am not sure what size heat exhaust
fans I need as well as how to deal with the problem of creating
negative air pressure when system is not running.

I also decided to implement forced air ventilation where I can bring
an ample quantity of fresh outside air to keep my house under
comfortable temperature condition when keeping the windows open is not
really an option due to heavy rain or those situations when open
windows pose some serious security concerns. In addition to forced air
ventilation, I would like to use the same delivery mechanism for
air/air heat exchange instead of water/air as another alternative to
well water when the outside temperature is good enough to completely
shut off the well water supply. I would also like to conserve the
water table whenever it is possible; therefore, if the outside
temperature is close to 50F I would want to use an air/air heat
exchange rather than a water/air one. Obviously, if the temperature
drops below a certain point, such as 40F (I leave the decision of that
optimal temperature to those professionals who are more knowledgeable
than myself), I would have to cut off the air supply and turn on the
water loop to increase energy efficiency of the future unit.

I am also planning to use heat pipe technology, if you are not
familiar with them you can visit their site at
http://www.heatpipe.com/ and learn about their products and technology
behind it. So in very simplified view my future system 1st stage will
consist of a heat pipe and two heat exchanges (water/air and air/air
between them). During the summer months, not even properly designed
water to air heat exchange (I am not talking about various car
evaporators) will be able to produce comfortable dry air in the hot
and humid Chicago climate; therefore, I am sure that I have to add a
dehumidification stage. It looks like I have to design the future
system (2nd stage) with a refrigeration circuit with Freon line being
cooled with the same water leaving water exchange. I want to stress
that I am not at all interested to buy a pre-packaged Water Furnace or
Florida Heat Pump geothermal heat pump because the only time I would
need them is in the winter and I never found a dual system capable of
working in both modes (water or air). Now you probably see all my
reasons why I have not even slightest interest in installing a
Geothermal Heat Pump operating with an Open Loop as it provides me
with no flexibility whatsoever.

So, the real question is, what do I do in winter time as I have a heat
sink coming to my house at 48-53F? Can I use a properly designed
dehumidification stage to reverse it and heat the air? I can leave the
current gas heaters but I hate to do that because local Gas Utility is
simply another monopoly which is charging whatever they want for gas
during the winter season (so, it is a matter of principal if you
will). I really want to get rid of gas utility all together and go
electric. Talking to numerous people, I realize that I have to build
the system without using pre-packaged solution unless somebody here
can direct me to the right people.

And the last wish, I would appreciate any input, constructive
criticism even flame regarding my proposed ideas and design, but
please spare me from any suggestions on other geothermal alternatives,
including closed loop systems as well as any single function
commercially available units.

On 26 Sep 2004 11:28:46 -0700,
(energy_freak) wrote:


So, the real question is, what do I do in winter time as I have a heat
sink coming to my house at 48-53F? Can I use a properly designed
dehumidification stage to reverse it and heat the air? I can leave the
current gas heaters but I hate to do that because local Gas Utility is
simply another monopoly which is charging whatever they want for gas
during the winter season (so, it is a matter of principal if you
will). I really want to get rid of gas utility all together and go
electric. Talking to numerous people, I realize that I have to build
the system without using pre-packaged solution unless somebody here
can direct me to the right people.

And the last wish, I would appreciate any input, constructive
criticism even flame regarding my proposed ideas and design, but
please spare me from any suggestions on other geothermal alternatives,
including closed loop systems as well as any single function
commercially available units.

Hi,

You may be able to adapt a split air conditioner/heat pump to use your
well water as a source, are you dead set against using a heat pump?

Whether a heat pump is better than gas for winter heating depends
largely on the relative cost of electricity to gas. How do they
compare in your area?

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote in message . ..
On 26 Sep 2004 11:28:46 -0700,
(energy_freak) wrote:


Hi,

You may be able to adapt a split air conditioner/heat pump to use your
well water as a source, are you dead set against using a heat pump?

Yes, I am against using a heat pump for all those good reasons I
mentioned in my post and I have no interest in split air
conditioner/heat pump either.

Whether a heat pump is better than gas for winter heating depends
largely on the relative cost of electricity to gas. How do they
compare in your area?

Definetely not in favor of gas as the cost of Natural gas is
absolutely out of reach during winter season.

cheers,
Pete.

(energy_freak) wrote in message om...
I tried to post this in USA, but I could not find any intelligent
response to the issues I brought up. It looks like most of Americans
operate on the "if it ain't broken do not fix it" principle, comes
from proper upbringing and excellent educational system. Please try to
bear with me and my lack of knowledge on the subject as I am not a
specialist in this particular field.

you definitely need to post this to alt.solar.thermal. The expertise
there is well beyond what it is here on this topic.


Here is what I have:

1. I have 4000 sq. ft residence in Chicago land with many glass
windows facing west (this helps a lot in the winter and is absolutely
miserable during summer)
2. Two older (10 years) Carrier or Bryant (who cares) A/C units 3 ton
each per floor
3. Two considerably oversized 110000 Input BTU Carrier 80 plus 2
forced air gas heaters
4. Two 50 Gal gas water heaters
5. Well water (private well) bringing very hard water at 53F all year
6. A retention pond outside the residence where I can hopefully
discharge processed water.

Here is the list of known issues which I have to resolve before I
embark on this project:

1. Ensure consistent supply of well water inside the house @ 30-40
GPM??!!

thats doable if you discharge the well water back into the well. Water
tends to stratify, so discharge warmed water to the top, and take cold
from the bottom.

Dont overloook earth pipes as well, theyre simple and will give you
lots of extra capacity. You can heat exchange the pipe output to avoid
any damp issues.


2. Provide adequate well water conditioning (can't use chemical water
softener due to prohibitive cost and maintenance) in order to avoid
any scaling and possible damage to extensive future plumbing set up,
heat exchangers, etc.. I heard that there was a new development in
water treatment by Honeywell available only in Europe.

Might be more logical to keep the well water to a separate circuit and
design it to work with the scaling and corrosion issues. Ie avoid iron
and steel, use an air separator, and add valves to enable you to flush
the system with acid if its ever needed. Plastic plumbing is not so
pricey.


3. Find very efficient water/air and air/air heat exchangers which of
course would be a function of size, material, GPM input and output T.
4. Find very efficient all electrical on-demand hot water boiler, I am
open to all suggestions from your guys because this technology is
light years ahead in Europe.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. I missed why you wanted to
use one though.


5. Install proper attic ventilation (Attic Fans)

Here is my plan of revamping the whole set-up: First of all, I am
planning to use water as a main cooling and heating media.

For cooling, good. I would look at earth pipes as well though.

Secondly, I
would like to use extensively smart ventilation in order to reduce
heat/cooling load

absolutely the way to go, had great success with that. Proper control
is all important though, you need to monitor temps on each side and
have it controlled automatically for it to work well.


and conserve well water as much as I can (I know
that I have a pretty strong well but still pulling 15-30 GPM to cool a
house is a scary prospect).

not if the water goes back to the well. I doubt theres any real hope
of it supplying enough if you discharge it elsewhere.

While most builders concern is focused on home air tightness and size
of the mechanical systems, proper ventilation of the home is often
overlooked. Also, in terms of indoor air quality and pollution
control, ventilation may be even more important.

I quite agree, it affects health and comfort signficantly.

For instance, in my
house, the only mechanical ventilation systems installed are 3 poorly
made and noisy bathroom fans (two upstairs and one downstairs). These
fans are seldom used for extended periods due to their high noise
level, and are completely inadequate for ensuring proper ventilation
to an entire house.

I am also planning to take the air from solar heated areas of the
house (including the attic) and distribute it all around the house
during the winter time. Obviously, during summer I would like to use
strategically installed exhaust fans to pull very hot and humid air
from those areas of the house were I have high vaulted ceilings.

yup, but always use a differential stat, otherwise its little good.

However in this particular case I am not sure what size heat exhaust
fans I need as well as how to deal with the problem of creating
negative air pressure when system is not running.

?

I also decided to implement forced air ventilation where I can bring
an ample quantity of fresh outside air to keep my house under
comfortable temperature condition when keeping the windows open is not
really an option due to heavy rain or those situations when open
windows pose some serious security concerns.

Good. Monitor temp and RH on both sides, and ventilate plentifully
when doing so will keep the house within your chosen temperature
comfort zone, and not make it damp. You can either fan vent, or use a
larger area of natural venting, with iron bars and mesh across it for
security. Of course this eats way less energy than a big fan, but it
is more work to put in. Use a motorised vent.


In addition to forced air
ventilation, I would like to use the same delivery mechanism for
air/air heat exchange instead of water/air as another alternative to
well water when the outside temperature is good enough to completely
shut off the well water supply. I would also like to conserve the
water table whenever it is possible; therefore, if the outside
temperature is close to 50F I would want to use an air/air heat
exchange rather than a water/air one.

I think with returning water to the well, which will be necessary, and
using a earth pipe, the above should not be an issue. It will come
more down to which takes less energy to run, and whether you ened to
run one or both.


Obviously, if the temperature
drops below a certain point, such as 40F (I leave the decision of that
optimal temperature to those professionals who are more knowledgeable
than myself), I would have to cut off the air supply and turn on the
water loop to increase energy efficiency of the future unit.

lost me there.


I am also planning to use heat pipe technology, if you are not
familiar with them you can visit their site at
http://www.heatpipe.com/ and learn about their products and technology
behind it. So in very simplified view my future system 1st stage will
consist of a heat pipe and two heat exchanges (water/air and air/air
between them). During the summer months, not even properly designed
water to air heat exchange (I am not talking about various car
evaporators) will be able to produce comfortable dry air in the hot
and humid Chicago climate; therefore, I am sure that I have to add a
dehumidification stage.

You might just be able to use the cold well water for that, I dont
know. Probably not.

It looks like I have to design the future
system (2nd stage) with a refrigeration circuit with Freon line being
cooled with the same water leaving water exchange. I want to stress
that I am not at all interested to buy a pre-packaged Water Furnace or
Florida Heat Pump geothermal heat pump because the only time I would
need them is in the winter and I never found a dual system capable of
working in both modes (water or air). Now you probably see all my
reasons why I have not even slightest interest in installing a
Geothermal Heat Pump operating with an Open Loop as it provides me
with no flexibility whatsoever.

So, the real question is, what do I do in winter time as I have a heat
sink coming to my house at 48-53F?

Obviously you dont want to bring the cold well water in in winter.
So far youve not mentioned solar flat plate space heating: this can
pay back at 25% pa and run in winter nicely.


Can I use a properly designed
dehumidification stage to reverse it and heat the air?

you could, but whether thats really the right move is another
question. I would far rather see flat plate solar thermal, it would be
way better.


I can leave the
current gas heaters but I hate to do that because local Gas Utility is
simply another monopoly which is charging whatever they want for gas
during the winter season (so, it is a matter of principal if you
will). I really want to get rid of gas utility all together and go
electric. Talking to numerous people, I realize that I have to build
the system without using pre-packaged solution unless somebody here
can direct me to the right people.

And the last wish, I would appreciate any input, constructive
criticism even flame regarding my proposed ideas and design, but
please spare me from any suggestions on other geothermal alternatives,
including closed loop systems as well as any single function
commercially available units.

Well I've got one that makes lots of difference to summer cooling:
shade the whole house. White paint is far from 100% reflective, the
sun heat load on a house in summer is enormous, so shade makes a great
difference. A separate metal frame with climbing plants is ideal, or
putting climbers direct on the house is cheap.

I would also add the suggestion of temperature comfort zones and
thermal storage. Ie your night time whole house fan should continue to
run until youre at the low end of your comfort zone, then you have
lots of coolth stored in teh structuer for automatic daytime cooling.
Thats if your house is brick/block.crete, if its timber then youve got
no significant thermal storage there.


Regards, NT

On 28 Sep 2004 22:19:17 -0700,
(energy_freak) wrote:

Hi,

You may be able to adapt a split air conditioner/heat pump to use your
well water as a source, are you dead set against using a heat pump?

Yes, I am against using a heat pump for all those good reasons I
mentioned in my post and I have no interest in split air
conditioner/heat pump either.

Okaaay! You can provide cooling with chilled water, this may also
provide dehumidification if the water temperature is below the
dewpoint of the cooled air.

It would be worth doing some trials to see how much cooling and
dehumdification a water/air exchanger will give.

If you can get some quite cheaply it should be doable. You may not get
scale deposits in them for cooling but the pH of the water needs to be
checked.

For minimising solar gain, as well as shading consider solar/blackout
blinds, and as well as attic ventilation consider a radiant barrier
such as foil stapled to the roof rafters.

Whether a heat pump is better than gas for winter heating depends
largely on the relative cost of electricity to gas. How do they
compare in your area?

Definetely not in favor of gas as the cost of Natural gas is
absolutely out of reach during winter season.

In that case you would be better off with electric heating. For 'on
demand' heating there should be electic showers and washroom heaters
that can do the job. If gas is a lot cheaper the rest of the year a
'multipoint' gas heater could be worth having too.

cheers,
Pete.