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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

The LiPo battery in a tiny remote controlled helicopter toy has
failed. I can tell it's failed because it has blown itself up like a
party balloon! I was surprised at how low the capacity was - 200mAh
was printed on the side. I've now replaced it with a similar 350mAh
LiPo battery.

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?

Nick
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.


I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?
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On 17/04/2021 13:31, Nick Odell wrote:
The LiPo battery in a tiny remote controlled helicopter toy has
failed. I can tell it's failed because it has blown itself up like a
party balloon! I was surprised at how low the capacity was - 200mAh
was printed on the side. I've now replaced it with a similar 350mAh
LiPo battery.

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?

Nick

123s are about 50% heavier and have lower terminal voltages (3.3 v 3.7
average) although they are more bombproof

I think they are LiFePo technology



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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.


I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?


A123

https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf


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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?


I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is
non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for
EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current
that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a
camera.

Theo


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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?


I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is
non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for
EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current
that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a
camera.

Theo

model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is
simply better than either.

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.


I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?


I've been using rechargeables like these:
https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg
in cameras for years.

I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I
deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of
about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just
over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh

Nick
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.


I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?


A123

https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf


At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are
talking about the same thing?

Nick
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:25:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?


I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is
non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for
EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current
that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a
camera.

Theo

model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is
simply better than either.


In what respect better? Are the LiPos better able to sustain a high
current drain? It was my suspicion that they might not be equal to
several minutes sustained flight that made me ask the question rather
than lash one up in the helicopter body.


Nick
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:59:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 16:30, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.

I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?


I've been using rechargeables like these:
https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg
in cameras for years.

I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I
deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of
about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just
over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh

Nick

Apples and oranges - you have about 5 Wh there. (3.3 x 1.5)
And I am certain they don't weigh 14g

40g is more like it

https://docs.rs-online.com/1683/0900766b812fdd11.pdf

This 5Wh LIPO pack

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...x-hr-tech.html

weighs in at 26g


I have an electronic balance which measures in 0.1g intervals and is
accurate to +/- 0.1g (according to reference weights). The 123 cells
each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter
LiPo about 10.2g.

These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve.

Nick


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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On 17/04/2021 16:30, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.


I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?


I've been using rechargeables like these:
https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg
in cameras for years.

I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I
deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of
about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just
over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh

Nick

Apples and oranges - you have about 5 Wh there. (3.3 x 1.5)
And I am certain they don't weigh 14g

40g is more like it

https://docs.rs-online.com/1683/0900766b812fdd11.pdf

This 5Wh LIPO pack

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...x-hr-tech.html

weighs in at 26g



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To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On 17/04/2021 16:32, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.

I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?


A123

https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf


At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are
talking about the same thing?

Nick

I would weigh your cells. They are NOT 14g.
At that capacity they HAVE to be around 2 oz - 40g+


--
It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.
Sir Roger Scruton
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On 17/04/2021 16:36, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:25:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?

I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is
non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for
EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current
that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a
camera.

Theo

model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is
simply better than either.


In what respect better? Are the LiPos better able to sustain a high
current drain?


more energy to weight and as much power to weight

It was my suspicion that they might not be equal to
several minutes sustained flight that made me ask the question rather
than lash one up in the helicopter body.

Well I've had nearly half an hours sustained flight out of LIPOS. Not an
a chopper tho


Nick



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the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

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On 17/04/2021 18:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:32, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.

I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?

A123

https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf


At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are
talking about the same thing?

Nick

I would weigh your cells. They are NOT 14g.
At that capacity they HAVE to be around 2 oz - 40g+


If these are rechargeable 'CR123 equivalents' they certainly weigh a lot
more than 14g - and they are not 3.3v LiFePo technology they are 3.7 v
Li-ion...


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On 17/04/2021 18:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 18:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:32, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare
with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.

I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?

A123

https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf


At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are
talking about the same thing?

Nick

I would weigh your cells. They are NOT 14g.
At that capacity they HAVE to be around 2 oz - 40g+


If these are rechargeable 'CR123 equivalents' they certainly weigh a lot
more than 14g - and they are not 3.3v LiFePo technology they are 3.7 v
Li-ion...


FURTHERMORE if they are 1500mAH they are almost certainly NOT
rechargeable viz:

"Non-rechargeable CR123A batteries have nominal voltage of 3.0 volts and
capacity around 1500 mAh. Shelf life of the best CR123A brands is
usually in the 7-10 years range, making these batteries excellent
choices for standby devices like EDC flashlights, security devices,
military applications and similar.

Non-rechargeable CR123A batteries also tolerate high drain currents,
which is very important for high-power devices and for devices that
require plenty of power for relatively short periods of time.

Rechargeable CR123A batteries (or RCR123A batteries) usually have
voltage in the 3.6-3.7 range and capacity in the 500-800 mAh range. Note
that rechargeable 3.0 and 3.3 volts batteries are also present on the
market."

--
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true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp


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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

On 17/04/2021 17:32, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:59:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 16:30, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Nick Odell wrote:

I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell.

I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable?

I've been using rechargeables like these:
https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg
in cameras for years.

I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I
deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of
about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just
over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh

Nick

Apples and oranges - you have about 5 Wh there. (3.3 x 1.5)
And I am certain they don't weigh 14g

40g is more like it

https://docs.rs-online.com/1683/0900766b812fdd11.pdf

This 5Wh LIPO pack

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...x-hr-tech.html

weighs in at 26g


I have an electronic balance which measures in 0.1g intervals and is
accurate to +/- 0.1g (according to reference weights). The 123 cells
each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter
LiPo about 10.2g.

These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve.

Nick

well you had better get theme gold plated. They appear to be, if truly
1500mAh, somewhat akin to pixie dust,

Either your scales are borked, or they are not 1500mAh, or they are not
rechargeable

150mAh at that weight ...


Are you sure you had the scales on grams and not oz? 1.4 oz i could believe

And I can barely believe 10g on a 200mAh LIPO either One cell maybe.




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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:25:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a
more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs
4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity
so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this
application. Any thoughts?
I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is
non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for
EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current
that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a
camera.

Theo

model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is
simply better than either.


In what respect better? Are the LiPos better able to sustain a high
current drain? It was my suspicion that they might not be equal to
several minutes sustained flight that made me ask the question rather
than lash one up in the helicopter body.


Nick


I saw an article about RC cars, showing the "best" batteries
available. You get effects like this:

Storage Max-Current
1500mA 20000 ma
3000mA 10000 ma

The reason a low capacity battery was fitted to the helicopter,
could be to enhance available peak current flow. Making short
trips work better.

The peak current is not stamped on the battery. They
only stamp the capacity on them (3500maH for Panasonic,
compared to "10000maH" for a chinese one :-) ). You need
the datasheet or website, to get the max-current value.

You need to find vendors with complete tables of batteries
for sale ("capacity" batteries versus "current" batteries),
to discover how the specs and size, influence results. One
site I checked, one of the results was entirely unintuitive.
(One of their "current" batteries was just horrible max-current.)
Then you need accurate weight values, to decide whether
they're good for the job.

Paul
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Default LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123

Nick Odell wrote:

The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the
little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g.


In the same way of measuring 18650 cells, a CR123A size is a 16340 cell.

I have a Fenix torch that takes a 26650 cell, it has a Fenix branded
cell 4800mAh (98g), according to my BT-C3100 charger, that capacity is
accurate.

Fenix sell various sized Li-ion cells, including a 16340 (19g), but only
with a capacity of 700mAh

https://www.torchdirect.co.uk/batteries-and-chargers.html

The mAh/g is better for the larger cells, obviously the metal casing is
dead weight, surface area to volume ratios and all that, which is one
advantage to LiPo with their flimsy "bags".

So I'd doubt any 16340 cell that claims 1500mAh capacity, if Fenix could
make one with double the capacity, why wouldn't they?

These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve.


Did I squint and read on the photos that they have a minimum voltage of
2.75V? That seems quite low for Li-ion.

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On 18/04/2021 09:07, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:

The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the
little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g.


In the same way of measuring 18650 cells, a CR123A size is a 16340 cell.

I have a Fenix torch that takes a 26650 cell, it has a Fenix branded
cell 4800mAh (98g), according to my BT-C3100 charger, that capacity is
accurate.

Fenix sell various sized Li-ion cells, including a 16340 (19g), but only
with a capacity of 700mAh

https://www.torchdirect.co.uk/batteries-and-chargers.html

The mAh/g is better for the larger cells, obviously the metal casing is
dead weight, surface area to volume ratios and all that, which is one
advantage to LiPo with their flimsy "bags".

So I'd doubt any 16340 cell that claims 1500mAh capacity, if Fenix could
make one with double the capacity, why wouldn't they?

I suspect these are cheap chinese cells that actually have reject 150mAh
inside :-)

1500mAh is for a primary cell and even those weigh more.


These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve.


Did I squint and read on the photos that they have a minimum voltage of
2.75V? That seems quite low for Li-ion.

I think that what is printed on the sleeve bears no resemblance to
reality at all.

Anyway total confusion because these are not the A123 Lifepo but LI-ION
in a C132 size,any if they really weigh 14g, there is no way that they
are 1500mAh.

I found some similar discontinued on amazon with rather bad reviews.


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fill the world with fools.

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On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:07:18 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Nick Odell wrote:

The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the
little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g.


In the same way of measuring 18650 cells, a CR123A size is a 16340 cell.

I have a Fenix torch that takes a 26650 cell, it has a Fenix branded
cell 4800mAh (98g), according to my BT-C3100 charger, that capacity is
accurate.

Fenix sell various sized Li-ion cells, including a 16340 (19g), but only
with a capacity of 700mAh

https://www.torchdirect.co.uk/batteries-and-chargers.html

The mAh/g is better for the larger cells, obviously the metal casing is
dead weight, surface area to volume ratios and all that, which is one
advantage to LiPo with their flimsy "bags".

So I'd doubt any 16340 cell that claims 1500mAh capacity, if Fenix could
make one with double the capacity, why wouldn't they?


Marketing?

I have lots of pound shop NiMh AA rechargeable batteries - I know,
they are completely different but when some similar cells are
available at 2100mAh, the ones made for pound shops are invariably
350/750/800mAh





These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve.


Did I squint and read on the photos that they have a minimum voltage of
2.75V? That seems quite low for Li-ion.


The full text from one I have here (different brand) reads "The
voltage of full charge and cut-off discharge is 4.2 and 2.75v"

I use these cells in analogue cameras. I've never kept them going
until the low battery light comes on in order to find out how long
they really last because I tend to put freshly charged cells in before
I go out. However, using auto-focus, auto-zoom and motor film
transport, on-board flash and all the other gubbins, I can run through
two or three films and the mechanical action is still as crisp and
sharp as it was in the beginning.

Nick
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On 18/04/2021 13:46, Nick Odell wrote:


Marketing?

I have lots of pound shop NiMh AA rechargeable batteries - I know,
they are completely different but when some similar cells are
available at 2100mAh, the ones made for pound shops are invariably
350/750/800mAh


When a phone has a replacement battery capacity far in excess of that
supplied with the phone you can be sure the higher capacity is a work of
fiction.

It's much the same with any other battery in that if the capacity is far
in excess of that from reputable battery manufacturers then the no-name
manufacturers are lying.




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In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 18/04/2021 13:46, Nick Odell wrote:



Marketing?

I have lots of pound shop NiMh AA rechargeable batteries - I know,
they are completely different but when some similar cells are
available at 2100mAh, the ones made for pound shops are invariably
350/750/800mAh


When a phone has a replacement battery capacity far in excess of that
supplied with the phone you can be sure the higher capacity is a work of
fiction.


It's much the same with any other battery in that if the capacity is far
in excess of that from reputable battery manufacturers then the no-name
manufacturers are lying.


I forget which manufacturer t was, but one firm said the reason that their
phones weer catching fire was because people were fitting non OEM batteries.

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