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LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
The LiPo battery in a tiny remote controlled helicopter toy has
failed. I can tell it's failed because it has blown itself up like a party balloon! I was surprised at how low the capacity was - 200mAh was printed on the side. I've now replaced it with a similar 350mAh LiPo battery. I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Nick Odell wrote:
The LiPo battery in a tiny remote controlled helicopter toy has failed. I can tell it's failed because it has blown itself up like a party balloon! I was surprised at how low the capacity was - 200mAh was printed on the side. I've now replaced it with a similar 350mAh LiPo battery. I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? Nick 123s are about 50% heavier and have lower terminal voltages (3.3 v 3.7 average) although they are more bombproof I think they are LiFePo technology -- "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) " Alan Sokal |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? A123 https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf -- "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them" Margaret Thatcher |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
Nick Odell wrote:
I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a camera. Theo |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote:
Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a camera. Theo model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is simply better than either. -- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift. |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? I've been using rechargeables like these: https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg in cameras for years. I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? A123 https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing? Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:25:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a camera. Theo model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is simply better than either. In what respect better? Are the LiPos better able to sustain a high current drain? It was my suspicion that they might not be equal to several minutes sustained flight that made me ask the question rather than lash one up in the helicopter body. Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:59:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: On 17/04/2021 16:30, Nick Odell wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? I've been using rechargeables like these: https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg in cameras for years. I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh Nick Apples and oranges - you have about 5 Wh there. (3.3 x 1.5) And I am certain they don't weigh 14g 40g is more like it https://docs.rs-online.com/1683/0900766b812fdd11.pdf This 5Wh LIPO pack https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...x-hr-tech.html weighs in at 26g I have an electronic balance which measures in 0.1g intervals and is accurate to +/- 0.1g (according to reference weights). The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g. These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve. Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 16:30, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? I've been using rechargeables like these: https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg in cameras for years. I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh Nick Apples and oranges - you have about 5 Wh there. (3.3 x 1.5) And I am certain they don't weigh 14g 40g is more like it https://docs.rs-online.com/1683/0900766b812fdd11.pdf This 5Wh LIPO pack https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...x-hr-tech.html weighs in at 26g -- To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote. |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 16:32, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? A123 https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing? Nick I would weigh your cells. They are NOT 14g. At that capacity they HAVE to be around 2 oz - 40g+ -- €œIt is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into, we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a power-directed system of thought.€ Sir Roger Scruton |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 16:36, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:25:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a camera. Theo model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is simply better than either. In what respect better? Are the LiPos better able to sustain a high current drain? more energy to weight and as much power to weight It was my suspicion that they might not be equal to several minutes sustained flight that made me ask the question rather than lash one up in the helicopter body. Well I've had nearly half an hours sustained flight out of LIPOS. Not an a chopper tho Nick -- €œThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 18:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:32, Nick Odell wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? A123 https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing? Nick I would weigh your cells. They are NOT 14g. At that capacity they HAVE to be around 2 oz - 40g+ If these are rechargeable 'CR123 equivalents' they certainly weigh a lot more than 14g - and they are not 3.3v LiFePo technology they are 3.7 v Li-ion... -- "In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is true: it is true because it is powerful." Lucas Bergkamp |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 18:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 18:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 16:32, Nick Odell wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 13:44, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? A123 https://www.horizonhobby.com/on/dema...s/A123FAQs.pdf At 70g vs the 14g of the ones I've been using, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing? Nick I would weigh your cells. They are NOT 14g. At that capacity they HAVE to be around 2 oz - 40g+ If these are rechargeable 'CR123 equivalents' they certainly weigh a lot more than 14g - and they are not 3.3v LiFePo technology they are 3.7 v Li-ion... FURTHERMORE if they are 1500mAH they are almost certainly NOT rechargeable viz: "Non-rechargeable CR123A batteries have nominal voltage of 3.0 volts and capacity around 1500 mAh. Shelf life of the best CR123A brands is usually in the 7-10 years range, making these batteries excellent choices for standby devices like EDC flashlights, security devices, military applications and similar. Non-rechargeable CR123A batteries also tolerate high drain currents, which is very important for high-power devices and for devices that require plenty of power for relatively short periods of time. Rechargeable CR123A batteries (or RCR123A batteries) usually have voltage in the 3.6-3.7 range and capacity in the 500-800 mAh range. Note that rechargeable 3.0 and 3.3 volts batteries are also present on the market." -- "In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is true: it is true because it is powerful." Lucas Bergkamp |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 17/04/2021 17:32, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:59:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 16:30, Nick Odell wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:44:41 +0100, Andy Burns wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. I thought CR123 were /not/ rechargeable? I've been using rechargeables like these: https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/a...ce6d-large.jpg in cameras for years. I'm not sure of the correct prefixes or suffixes for them so I deliberately avoided that. They weigh about 14g and have a capacity of about 1500mAh compared with the LiPos I have which seem to be just over 10g and, as I said 200/350mAh Nick Apples and oranges - you have about 5 Wh there. (3.3 x 1.5) And I am certain they don't weigh 14g 40g is more like it https://docs.rs-online.com/1683/0900766b812fdd11.pdf This 5Wh LIPO pack https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...x-hr-tech.html weighs in at 26g I have an electronic balance which measures in 0.1g intervals and is accurate to +/- 0.1g (according to reference weights). The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g. These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve. Nick well you had better get theme gold plated. They appear to be, if truly 1500mAh, somewhat akin to pixie dust, Either your scales are borked, or they are not 1500mAh, or they are not rechargeable 150mAh at that weight ... Are you sure you had the scales on grams and not oz? 1.4 oz i could believe And I can barely believe 10g on a 200mAh LIPO either One cell maybe. -- €œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€ H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:25:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/04/2021 15:01, Theo wrote: Nick Odell wrote: I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? I don't know what you mean by '123 cell' (as mentioned a CR123 is non-rechargeable. The company A123 Systems made lithium iron phosphate for EVs etc, probably a bit large for you!), but possibly the amount of current that can be drawn. A drone is going to take much more continuously than a camera. Theo model planes will fly on 123s. They are better than Nixx. But LIPO is simply better than either. In what respect better? Are the LiPos better able to sustain a high current drain? It was my suspicion that they might not be equal to several minutes sustained flight that made me ask the question rather than lash one up in the helicopter body. Nick I saw an article about RC cars, showing the "best" batteries available. You get effects like this: Storage Max-Current 1500mA 20000 ma 3000mA 10000 ma The reason a low capacity battery was fitted to the helicopter, could be to enhance available peak current flow. Making short trips work better. The peak current is not stamped on the battery. They only stamp the capacity on them (3500maH for Panasonic, compared to "10000maH" for a chinese one :-) ). You need the datasheet or website, to get the max-current value. You need to find vendors with complete tables of batteries for sale ("capacity" batteries versus "current" batteries), to discover how the specs and size, influence results. One site I checked, one of the results was entirely unintuitive. (One of their "current" batteries was just horrible max-current.) Then you need accurate weight values, to decide whether they're good for the job. Paul |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
Off the shelf availability?
Brian -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Nick Odell" wrote in message ... The LiPo battery in a tiny remote controlled helicopter toy has failed. I can tell it's failed because it has blown itself up like a party balloon! I was surprised at how low the capacity was - 200mAh was printed on the side. I've now replaced it with a similar 350mAh LiPo battery. I was just wondering how the performance of these LiPos compare with a more conventional rechargeable lithium 123 cell. The 123 only weighs 4g more than the LiPo yet seem to have many times the storage capacity so presumably there must be some reason why they aren't used in this application. Any thoughts? Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
Nick Odell wrote:
The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g. In the same way of measuring 18650 cells, a CR123A size is a 16340 cell. I have a Fenix torch that takes a 26650 cell, it has a Fenix branded cell 4800mAh (98g), according to my BT-C3100 charger, that capacity is accurate. Fenix sell various sized Li-ion cells, including a 16340 (19g), but only with a capacity of 700mAh https://www.torchdirect.co.uk/batteries-and-chargers.html The mAh/g is better for the larger cells, obviously the metal casing is dead weight, surface area to volume ratios and all that, which is one advantage to LiPo with their flimsy "bags". So I'd doubt any 16340 cell that claims 1500mAh capacity, if Fenix could make one with double the capacity, why wouldn't they? These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve. Did I squint and read on the photos that they have a minimum voltage of 2.75V? That seems quite low for Li-ion. |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 18/04/2021 09:07, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Odell wrote: The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g. In the same way of measuring 18650 cells, a CR123A size is a 16340 cell. I have a Fenix torch that takes a 26650 cell, it has a Fenix branded cell 4800mAh (98g), according to my BT-C3100 charger, that capacity is accurate. Fenix sell various sized Li-ion cells, including a 16340 (19g), but only with a capacity of 700mAh https://www.torchdirect.co.uk/batteries-and-chargers.html The mAh/g is better for the larger cells, obviously the metal casing is dead weight, surface area to volume ratios and all that, which is one advantage to LiPo with their flimsy "bags". So I'd doubt any 16340 cell that claims 1500mAh capacity, if Fenix could make one with double the capacity, why wouldn't they? I suspect these are cheap chinese cells that actually have reject 150mAh inside :-) 1500mAh is for a primary cell and even those weigh more. These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve. Did I squint and read on the photos that they have a minimum voltage of 2.75V? That seems quite low for Li-ion. I think that what is printed on the sleeve bears no resemblance to reality at all. Anyway total confusion because these are not the A123 Lifepo but LI-ION in a C132 size,any if they really weigh 14g, there is no way that they are 1500mAh. I found some similar discontinued on amazon with rather bad reviews. -- €œThe ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.€ Herbert Spencer |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:07:18 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote: Nick Odell wrote: The 123 cells each weigh something between 13.8-14.0 grammes, the little helicopter LiPo about 10.2g. In the same way of measuring 18650 cells, a CR123A size is a 16340 cell. I have a Fenix torch that takes a 26650 cell, it has a Fenix branded cell 4800mAh (98g), according to my BT-C3100 charger, that capacity is accurate. Fenix sell various sized Li-ion cells, including a 16340 (19g), but only with a capacity of 700mAh https://www.torchdirect.co.uk/batteries-and-chargers.html The mAh/g is better for the larger cells, obviously the metal casing is dead weight, surface area to volume ratios and all that, which is one advantage to LiPo with their flimsy "bags". So I'd doubt any 16340 cell that claims 1500mAh capacity, if Fenix could make one with double the capacity, why wouldn't they? Marketing? I have lots of pound shop NiMh AA rechargeable batteries - I know, they are completely different but when some similar cells are available at 2100mAh, the ones made for pound shops are invariably 350/750/800mAh These 123s say Li-ion and 3.7v on the sleeve. Did I squint and read on the photos that they have a minimum voltage of 2.75V? That seems quite low for Li-ion. The full text from one I have here (different brand) reads "The voltage of full charge and cut-off discharge is 4.2 and 2.75v" I use these cells in analogue cameras. I've never kept them going until the low battery light comes on in order to find out how long they really last because I tend to put freshly charged cells in before I go out. However, using auto-focus, auto-zoom and motor film transport, on-board flash and all the other gubbins, I can run through two or three films and the mechanical action is still as crisp and sharp as it was in the beginning. Nick |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
On 18/04/2021 13:46, Nick Odell wrote:
Marketing? I have lots of pound shop NiMh AA rechargeable batteries - I know, they are completely different but when some similar cells are available at 2100mAh, the ones made for pound shops are invariably 350/750/800mAh When a phone has a replacement battery capacity far in excess of that supplied with the phone you can be sure the higher capacity is a work of fiction. It's much the same with any other battery in that if the capacity is far in excess of that from reputable battery manufacturers then the no-name manufacturers are lying. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
LiPo vs Rechargeable Lithium 123
In article ,
alan_m wrote: On 18/04/2021 13:46, Nick Odell wrote: Marketing? I have lots of pound shop NiMh AA rechargeable batteries - I know, they are completely different but when some similar cells are available at 2100mAh, the ones made for pound shops are invariably 350/750/800mAh When a phone has a replacement battery capacity far in excess of that supplied with the phone you can be sure the higher capacity is a work of fiction. It's much the same with any other battery in that if the capacity is far in excess of that from reputable battery manufacturers then the no-name manufacturers are lying. I forget which manufacturer t was, but one firm said the reason that their phones weer catching fire was because people were fitting non OEM batteries. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
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