On 11/04/2021 20:38, NY wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
...

my father hadÂ* a Rootes car (Sceptre?). It had a bench front seat, so
the
handbrake had to fit between the driver's seat and the door.


No €œhad to€� about it. Youre forgetting under dash €œumbrella€� style
handbrakes that you pulled (and foot operated parking brakes although Im
not sure these were ever popular in the UK).

Foot operated parking brakes are a pain because you need an extra leg to
release the brake at a time which is precisely coordinated with the
clutch and accelerator when doing a hill start. They also latch on and
have to be pressed down to release them. So you can't release them or
apply them as quickly or with as much control. The same is true of
electric handbrakes, controlled by a switch which uses an electric motor
to apply/release. A good hill start is one where at the moment of
setting off the handbrake bites only just enough to hold the car back,
and not so much that it prevents the car going forwards - that needs a
non-binary control of the brake.

OK, so automatic cars don't strictly speaking need a handbrake to be
coordinated during a hill start, because the transmission with idling
engine will (hopefully) hold the car from rolling back unless the hill
is very steep - but as with handbrake assist on a manual car, I haven't
the guts to rely on it. I'll have to try it on a hill when there's
nothing behind me and see if our car's handbrake assist actually *does*
hold the car if it is released *before* the clutch is engaged and the
power is applied. With my hand on the handbrake lever , just in case ;-)

Anyway, I will not, as a service to the car behind me, use my footbrake
to stay stopped at a junction etc. That would dazzle him with my brake
lights. I want to shoot other drivers who do it to me, so I won't do it
to them. "Footbrake to stop the car. Handbrake to *stay* stopped." Wise
Saw number 387 from my driving instructor all those years ago.

I think that what is recommended now is to come to a stop, apply the
handbrake, but keep your foot on the footbrake, only releasing it when
you are sure that the driver behind has seen your brake lights and is
slowing to stop.

Tricky Dicky wrote in
:

On Sunday, 11 April 2021 at 19:29:58 UTC+1, Mark Carver wrote:
On 07/04/2021 14:09, JohnP wrote:
Similar annoyance is Mr Kind who stops to let cars out of every
side road - preferably before they have to stop. What about some
consideration to those behind?
Never mind that. People wanting to make a right turn in front of me
are so annoying.

I'm writing to Grant Shaps to suggest making the manoeuvre illegal.
I once read an account about a woman who only made left turns going
miles out of her way to get to destinations without doing a right
turn.

Richard


A bit extreme - but sometimes a bit of planning on a regular journey can
lead to avoiding an awkward turn. Hence I tend to avoid a particular rat-
run as it involves 2 right turns and I prefer to go to a traffic light
controlled junction to take one safer right turn.

"JohnP" wrote in message
. ..
Tricky Dicky wrote in
:
I once read an account about a woman who only made left turns going
miles out of her way to get to destinations without doing a right
turn.

Richard


A bit extreme - but sometimes a bit of planning on a regular journey can
lead to avoiding an awkward turn. Hence I tend to avoid a particular rat-
run as it involves 2 right turns and I prefer to go to a traffic light
controlled junction to take one safer right turn.

Yes, whenever I'm taking a load of garden waste and Amazon cardboard to the
tip (sorry, "recycling centre") I take a slightly longer way round to avoid
having to turn right from a minor road onto a major road where there isn't
very good visibility either way because the junction is on a long bend. At
quiet times, it's not a problem but as soon as there's a stream of cars
going to the coast, it's a dead loss because there's almost nose-to-tail
traffic and it's rare for anyone to stop to let me out.


Where I used to live, there was a crossroads where my road joined a busy
trunk A road. If I wanted to turn right, I had to check for two streams of
traffic coming from my right because the road narrowed from two-lane
dual-carriageway to one lane at the junction, and from the left some cars
were preparing to overtake others as the dual carriageway started.

https://i.postimg.cc/MTwKYxZ7/Scan-12-04-2021-1030.png (I'm approaching from
the bottom of the map)

I quickly worked out that there was an easier way. There was another road, a
little dead-end into a hamlet, about 300 yards to my left. I would turn left
(only need to check for traffic from my right), pull into the centre
turning-right lane, do a U turn around the island in the mouth of the
dead-end (having checked there was nothing coming from that direction) and
pull out again into the direction I originally wanted. People from the
hamlet did the converse with U turns in my road.

I got a *very* funny look from a car that was waiting (and waiting and
waiting) to turn right when I did my turn-left-U-turn manoeuvre and went
past him, still waiting. I would have slowed down and flashed him out ahead
of me, but there was traffic coming from his right so he wouldn't have been
able to get out even if I'd let him - and anyway, there's too much risk of
someone overtaking me at the junction and hitting him.


It was a weird junction for traffic doing odd things. If I was turning right
into my road (coming from the left), I'd indicate a few seconds before and
pull over into the centre turning-right lane, carrying on indicating. And
I've lost count of the number of people who have nearly rear-ended me and
then swerved left to avoid me - presumably because they thought I was going
to accelerate to move into lane 2 of the dual carriageway rather than slow
down and turn right. I must have been doing something wrong for it to happen
so often. Maybe the signage is such that people see the "start of dual
carriageway n-hundred yards" signs but not the "cross roads" sign and don't
realise that a right indicator might mean "turning right" rather than
"moving right to overtake". https://goo.gl/maps/fZFyenzoxRyY4CRs9 (I start
to indicate somewhere between the dual carriageway and cross roads signs)
and then slightly further on https://goo.gl/maps/F99Dua6AFXeVSofN6 (I pull
into the centre lane as soon as the hatching ends and start to brake).

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 17:58:36 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

snip

I was following a very clean 1988 Rolls Royce Silver Spirit yesterday
and from the back, it really didnt look any bigger than a Mondeo. Back
in 88 Im sure it was huge but its now only €œmedium-big€�.

Tim

I bought a second-hand Mondeo estate (55 plate Mk3) a few years back. The
guy I bought it off had just bought a Mini which was both taller and wider
than the Mondeo.

In article , Mark Carver
writes
On 07/04/2021 14:09, JohnP wrote:
Similar annoyance is Mr Kind who stops to let cars out of every side road -
preferably before they have to stop. What about some consideration to those
behind?
Never mind that. People wanting to make a right turn in front of me are
so annoying.

I'm writing to Grant Shaps to suggest making the manoeuvre illegal.
Suggest he sets up a telephone hot line so you can ring in in real time
on your mobile...oh hang on, hands free mobile and have a good rant.
--
bert

On 11/04/2021 16:06, williamwright wrote:
On 08/04/2021 11:14, Andrew wrote:
If we all still drove BMC minis, Hillman imps and Bond bugs the
increased number of cars would be less of a problem.

There'd be more deaths.

Bill

would help the shortage of organs for donation though

On 11/04/2021 18:05, charles wrote:


my father had a Rootes car (Sceptre?). It had a bench front seat, so the
handbrake had to fit between the driver's seat and the door.


The Vauxhall Victor FB with a bench front seat had the handbrake
under the steering wheel. You pulled it out to apply and twisted it
to release it.

In message , Andrew
writes
The Vauxhall Victor FB with a bench front seat had the handbrake
under the steering wheel. You pulled it out to apply and twisted it
to release it.

Dad used to have a 1972 Datsun (with seats rather than a bench) that had
the same handbrake arrangement.

Adrian
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On 13/04/2021 20:40, Adrian wrote:
In message , Andrew
writes
The Vauxhall Victor FB with a bench front seat had the handbrake
under the steering wheel. You pulled it out to apply and twisted it
to release it.

Dad used to have a 1972 Datsun (with seats rather than a bench) that had
the same handbrake arrangement.

Adrian

I suspect the migration of the handbrake from under the dash to
between the front seats was motivated by cost savings. Shorter
cable run to the rear wheels and no need for lever arrangement
under the bonnet that converted the action of pulling the handbrake
out into a much-reduced movement of the cables going to the rear
but with more tension.

On Thu, 08 Apr 2021 14:45:22 +0100, T i m wrote:

snip

I thought you weren't supposed to enter the box unless you could exit it
cleanly? That doesn't seem to be what Scion is stating though.

The actual wording is:
"... a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that
the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of
stationary vehicles ..."

So my interpretation is not necessarily correct.


On Thu, 08 Apr 2021 13:14:58 +0100, NY wrote:

A lot depends on where the box junction is: if you are overhanging at
traffic lights, the car from your left that you are blocking will be
starting from rest. You may get verbal and horn abuse, but it's not a
safety issue unless he fails to stop to avoid you. At a level crossing,
where the vehicle that you are blocking will be a train that is already
moving (maybe very fast!) it's a very different story ;-)

Interestingly, it seems that box junctions over level crossings have no
legal authority, unless the road is 4.5m wide:

"For the purposes of this paragraph €œbox junction€� means an area of the
carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is€”

(a)at a junction between two or more roads;

(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;

(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the
carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest
point; or

(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the
premises of a fire, police or ambulance station."


From https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...dule/9/part/7/
paragraph/11/made?view=plain

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:50:19 +0100, NY wrote:

snip

It was a weird junction for traffic doing odd things. If I was turning
right into my road (coming from the left), I'd indicate a few seconds
before and pull over into the centre turning-right lane, carrying on
indicating. And I've lost count of the number of people who have nearly
rear-ended me and then swerved left to avoid me - presumably because
they thought I was going to accelerate to move into lane 2 of the dual
carriageway rather than slow down and turn right. I must have been doing
something wrong for it to happen so often. Maybe the signage is such
that people see the "start of dual carriageway n-hundred yards" signs
but not the "cross roads" sign and don't realise that a right indicator
might mean "turning right" rather than "moving right to overtake".
https://goo.gl/maps/fZFyenzoxRyY4CRs9 (I start to indicate somewhere
between the dual carriageway and cross roads signs) and then slightly
further on https://goo.gl/maps/F99Dua6AFXeVSofN6 (I pull into the centre
lane as soon as the hatching ends and start to brake).

There's an odd junction for joining the westbound A27 from the A280 just
outside Worthing.

The A27 is a two-lane dual carriageway at that point. The A280 merges into
lane one from a slip road. Nothing unusual about that so far.

The oddity is, about 100 yards further on from the end of the slip road
the A27 gets a third lane split off from lane two.

I've never been able to work out why the slip road doesn't simply become
the new lane one on the left.

"Scion" wrote in message
...
The actual wording is:
"... a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that
the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of
stationary vehicles ..."

So you cannot enter unless there is a car-length gap on the far side - or
will be by the time you get there. And if another car is closer to the gap,
because it's coming from a side road, then you always lose your chance.
There have been times when I *have* entered before the gap exists, because I
plan to crawl forwards slowly (not actually stopping!) until the car ahead
has moved far enough. But that requires confidence that the really *will*
move. And I aim always to move quickly while I'm blocking an oncoming car
turning right into the side road, and only crawl while I'm blocking a
left-turning car from side to main road.

Box junctions are great for letting cars turn across your path without you
blocking them, or to let emergency vehicles out of a fire station etc. But
they are open to abuse with side roads because drivers on the side road
often don't respect the normal rule of "driver on side road gives way to
driver on main road". They are one of the times when I will flash a car on a
side road to say "we've had long enough on the main road, time to let at
least *one* car out from the side road even if you don't have priority". At
all other times I hope that side road cars will give way and not try to
sneak out ahead just because they can get to the space quicker than I can.

It's where a dashcam can help fight a fine for misuse of a box junction. If
the video shows that I set off as soon as there is a big enough gap and a
side-road car sets off at the same time and gets there first, it can be seen
that I was waiting correctly and set off as soon as I was allowed and not
before, so if I'm stopped on the box, it's only because the other car got
there first.

I suppose it's down to semantics: at the precise second that you set off,
there was no stationary vehicle preventing you leave, even though there was
one a split-second later.

There is a breed of driver who seem to regard a box junction as conferring
actual *priority* to the side road and *they* will hoot at *you* and give
*you* the evil eye, V sign, "the finger" or whatever because you have set
off (when you should) instead of letting them go first (as you are not
obliged to). And in Oz (and maybe NZ) you have also to look out for oncoming
cars which are indicating right (your left) and which (whether or not there
is a box junction) have priority over you. I bet there are a lot of
accidents when people from outside Oz forget about that rule.

"Scion" wrote in message
...
There's an odd junction for joining the westbound A27 from the A280 just
outside Worthing.

The A27 is a two-lane dual carriageway at that point. The A280 merges into
lane one from a slip road. Nothing unusual about that so far.

The oddity is, about 100 yards further on from the end of the slip road
the A27 gets a third lane split off from lane two.

I've never been able to work out why the slip road doesn't simply become
the new lane one on the left.

One of the most dangerous and misleading junctions I've encountered is this
one in Ryde on the Isle of Wight: https://goo.gl/maps/22KPv63YyAYZU7Jc6

As you approach, it looks like a roundabout. It also looks like one on a map
(paper or satnav). You might think "why does the car on the right have a
give way line" but unless you are very quick on the uptake, you enter the
roundabout to turn right, and are suddenly faced with a give-way sign (only
visible side-on as you approach the not-roundabout) and have to give way to
traffic from your left.

It really needs one of two things - either say "sod it" and convert it to a
proper roundabout with normal rules, or else erect signs at each entrance to
say "Roundabout rules do NOT apply - GIVE WAY to traffic from left".

I'm not sure why the priority is that way, anyway. The traffic that you have
to give way to is coming from a dead-end, whereas the road you are on is a
major through route.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 13/04/2021 20:40, Adrian wrote:
In message , Andrew
writes
The Vauxhall Victor FB with a bench front seat had the handbrake
under the steering wheel. You pulled it out to apply and twisted it
to release it.

Dad used to have a 1972 Datsun (with seats rather than a bench) that had
the same handbrake arrangement.

Adrian

I suspect the migration of the handbrake from under the dash to
between the front seats was motivated by cost savings. Shorter
cable run to the rear wheels and no need for lever arrangement
under the bonnet that converted the action of pulling the handbrake
out into a much-reduced movement of the cables going to the rear
but with more tension.

More likely to have been due to the demise of the bench front seat.

And separate seats are more expensive too.

On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 14:24:06 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Scion" wrote in message
...
The actual wording is:
"... a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that
the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of
stationary vehicles ..."

So you cannot enter unless there is a car-length gap on the far side - or
will be by the time you get there. And if another car is closer to the gap,
because it's coming from a side road, then you always lose your chance.

Well, not *always*, depending on what you are driving and what they
are driving and how good / brave they are. ;-)

There have been times when I *have* entered before the gap exists, because I
plan to crawl forwards slowly (not actually stopping!) until the car ahead
has moved far enough.

I have done that and assumed (dangerous I know) that the last car(s)
*will* 'pull up' to the cars in front but then don't.

But that requires confidence that the really *will*
move.

Or keep moving into the spaces that's clearly there. However, so many
only seem to think of themselves or best case be oblivious of others.

We had to go though some road works earlier that were quite long
meaning there was quite a dead-band between each side actually moving
and the lights were on a fairly short (for the small quantity of cars
that could get though each time) duty cycle.

So, given I was the front, I made sure I was both ready as soon as the
last car was though and our lights went green to be away and there is
*always* an ever increasing gap between me and the car behind. ;-)

And I aim always to move quickly while I'm blocking an oncoming car
turning right into the side road, and only crawl while I'm blocking a
left-turning car from side to main road.

It is a game to be sure.

Box junctions are great for letting cars turn across your path without you
blocking them, or to let emergency vehicles out of a fire station etc. But
they are open to abuse with side roads because drivers on the side road
often don't respect the normal rule of "driver on side road gives way to
driver on main road".

Yup. ;-(

They are one of the times when I will flash a car on a
side road to say "we've had long enough on the main road, time to let at
least *one* car out from the side road even if you don't have priority".

There are some 'known' junctions were the regulars know it's a bugger
and alternate / zip.

At
all other times I hope that side road cars will give way and not try to
sneak out ahead just because they can get to the space quicker than I can.

And most people don't, especially when they know they could land you a
fine. A minority WGAF of course.

It's where a dashcam can help fight a fine for misuse of a box junction. If
the video shows that I set off as soon as there is a big enough gap and a
side-road car sets off at the same time and gets there first, it can be seen
that I was waiting correctly and set off as soon as I was allowed and not
before, so if I'm stopped on the box, it's only because the other car got
there first.

Sounds 'fair' but I'm not sure if that matters?

I suppose it's down to semantics: at the precise second that you set off,
there was no stationary vehicle preventing you leave, even though there was
one a split-second later.

And where video might well show, yours or theirs.

Daughter followed a Council van (in her van) into what she assumed was
the left hand lane but turned out to still be a bus lane (and when it
was active). She was sent the fine and a picture of her van in the bus
lane and a link to a video of the previous 5 seconds or so. You would
have thought when the picture shows someone in or overhanging (as in
daughters case) the box junction they might check the video to see if
issuing a PCN is 'fair'. As I mention previously, I'm not sure 'fair'
really comes into it and they enjoy the revenue, until contested.

There is a breed of driver who seem to regard a box junction as conferring
actual *priority* to the side road and *they* will hoot at *you* and give
*you* the evil eye, V sign, "the finger" or whatever because you have set
off (when you should) instead of letting them go first (as you are not
obliged to).

Yup, they are lovely people indeed.

And in Oz (and maybe NZ) you have also to look out for oncoming
cars which are indicating right (your left) and which (whether or not there
is a box junction) have priority over you. I bet there are a lot of
accidents when people from outside Oz forget about that rule.

My maiden voyage driving on the wrong side of the road was in France,
co-driving with my boss in a van full of exhibition gear to be set up
in Nice. The Périphérique in rush hour was a baptism of fire (but we
survived). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 04:33:52 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/