Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?


In a word - No. It isn't just the speed difference that's the problem;
the size of the groove is completely different. If it plays at all the
quality will be abysmal and it may damage your stylus.

Another Dave

--
Change nospam to techie

On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim


I should wash it thoroughly but gently. Then play it on the 45. It might
be distorted though because the angle of the groove sides will be wrong.

Bill

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record (hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard 'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...) then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for 78s. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N

On Thu, 1 Apr 2021 19:11:04 +0100, williamwright
wrote:


On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:

Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim



I should wash it thoroughly but gently. Then play it on the 45. It might
be distorted though because the angle of the groove sides will be wrong.

Bill


You might even find that the groove is so deep that the stylus doesn't
touch it, held aloft by its mount scraping the top surface.
--
Dave W

On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim


Don't do it, it will **** your stylus right royally. It will be
rattling around like a loose thing on international
loose-things-rattling-around day.

Context: Former broadcast engineer servicing and repairing 'record
players' among other things for a major UK corporation of British
broadcasting fame.

--
Cheers
Clive

jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record (hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard 'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...) then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for 78s. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N


Cheers. I did think about buying the €œcheap and cheerful€� double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 9:52:02 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record (hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard 'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...) then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for 78s.. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N

Cheers. I did think about buying the €œcheap and cheerful€� double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.
Tim

(digging some of this out of the memory banks...) The amplification, loading and
equalisation needed for a ceramic cartridge are different to those for magnetic ones;
I don't think it is worth trying unless your preamp is already capable. Unless you have
a *really* good reason to want to hear what is on the '78...

On 01/04/2021 06:47 pm, Tim+ wrote:

Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Provided that you have software which is up to the job, yes.

In fact, it is a common practice in professional circles to transcribe
from disc at the slowest speed possible and adjust speed later.

But... are you sure you can't find the track on Spotify or Amazon Music?
There are fifty three of his tracks available on Spotify and one on an
ordinary Amazon Prime sub (with the promise of more for an Unlimited
account).

AAMOI, what's the track?

Or rather, what are the tracks?

On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record (hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard 'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...) then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for 78s. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N


Cheers. I did think about buying the €œcheap and cheerful€� double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro or
BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You
can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get
something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm
record (hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will
be swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic
cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency
equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the
standard 'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are
charts available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...)
then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better
result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for
78s. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a
moving coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HTH, Jon N


Cheers. I did think about buying the €œcheap and cheerful€� double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro or
BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You
can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

You might loose quite a bit of bass depending on the input impedance. I
guess an sound equaliser can make up some of the loss.

On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim


If you hold the corner of a plastic banknote in the groove and rotate
the record you will hear the music. Yes really. It does work.

Bill

On 02/04/2021 08:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , williamwright
writes
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.
Â*I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.
Â*Would this work?
Â*Tim

If you hold the corner of a plastic banknote in the groove and rotate
the record you will hear the music. Yes really. It does work.

My Aunt's wind up gramophone worked quite well using a sewing pin
attached to a stiff paper cone:-)

Bored childhood!




A darning needle gripped between your front teeth worked well, too !

I've played 78s using a microgroove stylus. It didn't do any visible
(under a microscope) damage to the stylus.

PA

In message , williamwright
writes
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.
I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.
Would this work?
Tim

If you hold the corner of a plastic banknote in the groove and rotate
the record you will hear the music. Yes really. It does work.

My Aunt's wind up gramophone worked quite well using a sewing pin
attached to a stiff paper cone:-)

Bored childhood!



--
Tim Lamb

On 01/04/2021 22:47, jkn wrote:
(digging some of this out of the memory banks...) The amplification, loading and
equalisation needed for a ceramic cartridge are different to those for magnetic ones;

in general a ceramic cartridge will play into a high impedance (1Mohm +)
preamp with no equalisation at all

On a 78 you have more equalization than that to worry about as typically
recording techniques are not that good


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get
something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm
record (hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will
be swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic
cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency
equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the
standard 'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are
charts available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...)
then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better
result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for
78s. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a
moving coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HTH, Jon N


Cheers. I did think about buying the €œcheap and cheerful€� double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro or
BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You
can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

if you don't mind no bass at all.

You need a high impedance input


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 02/04/2021 08:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , williamwright
writes
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.
Â*I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.
Â*Would this work?
Â*Tim

If I remember correctly on old `record players` the stylus was flipped
over for 78s or 33/45s (I think)

On 01/04/2021 23:24, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 06:47 pm, Tim+ wrote:

Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

snip

But... are you sure you can't find the track on Spotify or Amazon Music?
There are fifty three of his tracks available on Spotify and one on an
ordinary Amazon Prime sub (with the promise of more for an Unlimited
account).


Also archive.org

--
Adrian C

It depends. If its one of the old type of brittle ones which were meant to
be played with steel needles I think accelerated wear, some groove rattle
and incorrect eq should be expected. Most sound editors these days seem to
have a speed change mode made for this case. I remember that if you have an
Ortofon cart then you can buy proper 78rpm stylii for those.
The groove deviation may well over run the normal parameters and cause
distortion, its very much a suck it and see situation I think. Myself I'd be
looking for an old autochanger deck from an old radiogram I think , to play
it on, one of those with the turn over needle made of sapphire and a
crystal cart.

In later years though when 78s were pressed in Vinyl, most people used
electronic playback gear, so you might find the surface noise a lot less if
its one of those.


Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

It will have a high level output, might be best into a line in or the line
in on a pc and then fiddle with it from there.
If you have a lot of rare 78s might be worth doing this with a relatively
cheap deck, like an old garrad sp25, some still running after all these
years.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at
45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get
something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record
(hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be
swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic
cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency
equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard
'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts
available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...)
then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for 78s.
If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving
coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N


Cheers. I did think about buying the "cheap and cheerful" double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as there's no phono input on my
amp.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

I think many line/mic inputs on pcs can be used with ceramic carts, but
there will be no eq, so you need an editor to do that and if you need to
change the speed as well. Golwave I used but others are very much the same.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"jkn" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 9:52:02 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at
45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get
something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record
(hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be
swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic
cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency
equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard
'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts
available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...)
then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better
result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for 78s.
If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving
coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N

Cheers. I did think about buying the "cheap and cheerful" double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as there's no phono input on my
amp.
Tim

(digging some of this out of the memory banks...) The amplification, loading
and
equalisation needed for a ceramic cartridge are different to those for
magnetic ones;
I don't think it is worth trying unless your preamp is already capable.
Unless you have
a *really* good reason to want to hear what is on the '78...

Of course the obvious thing to do is take a note of the titles the label
details and the number of the disc. The chances are that somebody has
already done the conversion and restored it. You would be surprised at what
a simple search can turn up. I had a horrible recoding from a 78 of Petula
Clark singing make Way, a very well known song with many different lyrics,
and it was dire, but a quick search found it already converted pretty
cleanly and even available from Amazon to stream. It was on what I used to
joking in latter years call the dead parrot label, called Polygon.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

For some version of 'work'...

If you don't mind the risk to your stylus, you would probably get
something out of it.
your 'LP' stylus will be sized for the 'microgroove' of a 33rpm record
(hence the phrase,
when the new Long-Playing technology came along). So the stylus will be
swamped
in the groove of the old 78. If you just have a cheap ceramic
cartridge(*) then I'd
probably give it a go regardless.

The other thing you will have to bear in mind is that the frequency
equalisation that
was applied to 78s was not standardised. This later became the standard
'RIAA' equalisation
that your record player electronics will implement, to a greater or
lesser degree. There were
a whole load of different curves defined before that - there are charts
available.

If you can use an audio editing program (Audacity, Adobe Audition...)
then you could apply
a combination of the LP RIAA curve and a 78 curve and get a better
result
(highs and lows balanced). It would be an interesting little project.

(*) some of these have a flip-over stylus, one side for LP, one for
78s. If you have a
moving magnet cartridge, you might take the risk. If you have a moving
coil cartridge,
then (a) you will know it, and (b) I wouldn't try any of this.

HTH, Jon N


Cheers. I did think about buying the "cheap and cheerful" double needled
ceramic cartridge but not sure how it will play with my AV amp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253059983279

We already have to have a small pre-amp as there's no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro or
BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You can
just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

You might loose quite a bit of bass depending on the input impedance. I
guess an sound equaliser can make up some of the loss.

On Thursday, 1 April 2021 at 18:47:47 UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls
Someone, somewhere will have an old wind up grams phone that can play the thing. Try asking your local Facebook group

Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 01/04/2021 23:24, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 06:47 pm, Tim+ wrote:

Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

snip

But... are you sure you can't find the track on Spotify or Amazon Music?
There are fifty three of his tracks available on Spotify and one on an
ordinary Amazon Prime sub (with the promise of more for an Unlimited
account).


Also archive.org


Of course I probably could. But thats rather missing the magic of €œplaying
a record€�, especially one found under a hedge. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 02/04/2021 01:07, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro or
BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You
can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

You might loose quite a bit of bass depending on the input impedance. I
guess an sound equaliser can make up some of the loss.

Does that means that a piezo cartridge has a very high impedance, suited
to valve amps? I used to have a transistorised table radio with the
obligatory "gram" input that worked all right with a piezo cartridge.
Maybe quality wasn't an issue.

--
Max Demian

Does Youtube have it?

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y+gordon+songs

On 01/04/2021 19:09, Another Dave wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?


In a word - No. It isn't just the speed difference that's the problem;
the size of the groove is completely different. If it plays at all the
quality will be abysmal and it may damage your stylus.

Another Dave

You could also play 78's using hawthorn thorns instead of the standard
steel ones (which were much the same length and diameter). Not sure if
this was for economy, or to reduce record wear, or whether some
considered that it gave a better tone.

On 02/04/2021 11:06, Max Demian wrote:
On 02/04/2021 01:07, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro
or BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You
can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

You might loose quite a bit of bass depending on the input impedance.
I guess an sound equaliser can make up some of the loss.

Does that means that a piezo cartridge has a very high impedance, suited
to valve amps? I used to have a transistorised table radio with the
obligatory "gram" input that worked all right with a piezo cartridge.
Maybe quality wasn't an issue.


You can get high impedance with transistors too.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?

It will work after a fashion. But the smaller stylus will bottom on the
groove and not give the best results. Which likely won't matter much.

--
*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:53:59 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2021 19:09, Another Dave wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?


In a word - No. It isn't just the speed difference that's the problem;
the size of the groove is completely different. If it plays at all the
quality will be abysmal and it may damage your stylus.

Another Dave

You could also play 78's using hawthorn thorns instead of the standard
steel ones (which were much the same length and diameter). Not sure if
this was for economy, or to reduce record wear, or whether some
considered that it gave a better tone.

A more "woody" sound. Otherwise you get a "tinny" sound.


--
Regards, Paul Herber
https://www.paulherber.co.uk/

On 02/04/2021 12:27, Paul Herber wrote:
On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:53:59 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2021 19:09, Another Dave wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?


In a word - No. It isn't just the speed difference that's the problem;
the size of the groove is completely different. If it plays at all the
quality will be abysmal and it may damage your stylus.

Another Dave

You could also play 78's using hawthorn thorns instead of the standard
steel ones (which were much the same length and diameter). Not sure if
this was for economy, or to reduce record wear, or whether some
considered that it gave a better tone.

A more "woody" sound. Otherwise you get a "tinny" sound.


AKA low-pass filter. I don't recall how effectively it reduced scratch
noise.

I rather enjoy the Paul Temple series on R4E with the little music
breaks for the record changes, and the still distinct sounds of
scratches in spite of all the wizardry when they were transferred
(presumably to tape before digital).

On 02/04/2021 11:06, Max Demian wrote:
On 02/04/2021 01:07, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro
or BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for swapping
between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp stage. You
can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

You might loose quite a bit of bass depending on the input impedance.
I guess an sound equaliser can make up some of the loss.

Does that means that a piezo cartridge has a very high impedance, suited
to valve amps? I used to have a transistorised table radio with the
obligatory "gram" input that worked all right with a piezo cartridge.
Maybe quality wasn't an issue.

They are effectively a voltage source in series with a capacitor, so
input resistance of the sounds-card is critical. They are normally made
a value to minimise pickup, high in terms of normal needs but low in
comparison with preferred input resistance for a ceramic/crystal cartridge.

This explains better than I can.

https://www.petervis.com/record_play...pacitance.html

Transistor amplifiers can be designed with very high input
impedance/resistances, certainly on par with valves.

On 02/04/2021 09:39, ss wrote:
On 02/04/2021 08:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , williamwright
writes
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.
Â*I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it
once at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.
Â*Would this work?
Â*Tim

If I remember correctly on old `record players`Â* the stylus was flipped
over for 78s or 33/45sÂ* (I think)

These were "turnover" styli, Others, including Philips, used a rocking
stylus. 180 degrees versus about 20 degrees.

One of the latter turned up on BBC Repair Shop a few weeks ago. The
bodge repair was to file down a turnover stylus that could then be
jammed into the de-gutted rocking's case.

PA

On 02/04/2021 10:34 am, Tim+ wrote:
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 01/04/2021 23:24, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 06:47 pm, Tim+ wrote:

Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

snip

But... are you sure you can't find the track on Spotify or Amazon Music?
There are fifty three of his tracks available on Spotify and one on an
ordinary Amazon Prime sub (with the promise of more for an Unlimited
account).


Also archive.org


Of course I probably could. But thats rather missing the magic of €œplaying
a record€�, especially one found under a hedge. ;-)

Fair enough.

But I stopped restoring audio from my own vinyl for any track I found I
could get online!

On 02/04/2021 11:53 am, newshound wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:09, Another Dave wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:47, Tim+ wrote:
Weirdly I found an old 78rpm record of Harry Gordon stuffed under a
hedge
this morning whilst out for a run.

I have a conventional record deck and wondered about playing it once
at 45
rpm and recording it and then speeding up the playback.

Would this work?


In a word - No. It isn't just the speed difference that's the problem;
the size of the groove is completely different. If it plays at all the
quality will be abysmal and it may damage your stylus.

Another Dave

You could also play 78's using hawthorn thorns instead of the standard
steel ones (which were much the same length and diameter). Not sure if
this was for economy, or to reduce record wear, or whether some
considered that it gave a better tone.

The makers of fibrous (natural material) needles used to advertise them
as providing warmer tone and reducing wear.

On 02/04/2021 11:26, JohnP wrote:



Does Youtube have it?

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y+gordon+songs


If that's the kind of stuff he came out with I'd put the record back in
the hedge.

Another Dave

--
Change nospam to techie

On 02/04/2021 16:41, Another Dave wrote:
On 02/04/2021 11:26, JohnP wrote:



Does Youtube have it?

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y+gordon+songs


If that's the kind of stuff he came out with I'd put the record back in
the hedge.

Another Dave

Well its typical of the lower class entertainment of the times. Today we
have rap which is arguably even worse


--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

Fredxx wrote:
On 02/04/2021 11:06, Max Demian wrote:
On 02/04/2021 01:07, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 23:28, JNugent wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:51 pm, Tim+ wrote:

We already have to have a small pre-amp as theres no phono input
on my
amp.

The ceramic cartridge (eg, as found on the classic Garrard, Collaro
or BSR autochanger and fitted with a flip-over mechanism for
swapping between vinyl and shellac styluses) doesn't need a pre-amp
stage. You can just run the output direct to your soundcard input.

You might loose quite a bit of bass depending on the input impedance.
I guess an sound equaliser can make up some of the loss.

Does that means that a piezo cartridge has a very high impedance,
suited to valve amps? I used to have a transistorised table radio with
the obligatory "gram" input that worked all right with a piezo
cartridge. Maybe quality wasn't an issue.

They are effectively a voltage source in series with a capacitor, so
input resistance of the sounds-card is critical. They are normally made
a value to minimise pickup, high in terms of normal needs but low in
comparison with preferred input resistance for a ceramic/crystal cartridge.

This explains better than I can.

https://www.petervis.com/record_play...pacitance.html


Transistor amplifiers can be designed with very high input
impedance/resistances, certainly on par with valves.

The same site (arrived at by a Google search), has an amplifier
based on a 2N7000.

https://www.petervis.com/record_play...p-circuit.html

The analog R and C component values are near the bottom of the
page. R1 and R2 are 20 million ohms each (general purpose resistors
come in values up to 22 million ohms). Removal of C1 and C2
would change the frequency response of the circuit ("flat").
The value of R1 and R2 is meant to indicate what kind of high impedance
circuit this is (very high, suited to piezo cartridge). In a pinch,
the NP 4.7uF could be made from two polarized 10uF in series
(with opposing polarization). I just buy the NP ones instead.
I've only ever owned two or three of those.

The location of the amplifier is important too. The amplifier
and its nine volt battery, should be positioned near the
phono arm, where the wire comes off. The circuit doubles as
a "cable buffer", and then you can run a suitable cable from
there over to the Line In on the destination device. Without
that, if you put a hundred feet of cable right
off the phono cartridge, the frequency response would be
missing all treble. By using the amplifier up near the
arm, it functions as a low impedance cable driver. I still
would not try a hundred foot of cable though, six feet
would be plenty.

The phono cartridge is electrically floating. The amplifier
and nine volt battery are floating. A desktop computer sound card
has a grounded input, and it is the ground on the computer
sound card that is the only ground in the circuit. (We need
this knowledge, to avoid ground loops.) Any tube amplifiers
are not involved, as long as the phono cartridge is no longer
connected to any tube amp inside the player device.

In cases where a media device is ground referenced at the
source, and you seek to input to the computer Line In, a
"hum breaker" can be purchased, to isolate the source from
the computer. This is used to break the ground loop (stop hum),
but at the expense of mutilating the frequency response (passes up
to around 10KHz). The transformer must be carefully wound
for best results in those. When you use things like
battery powered cassette players, then those are floating,
and the computer is the only ground in the circuit.

There are softwares for hobbyist usage. The first one
is mentioned in web reviews regarding computer audio.
And Audacity is a general purpose tool.

https://audio.rightmark.org/index_new.shtml

https://www.audacityteam.org/download

I find when using Audacity for this sort of application
(frequency response), you need two tools. A separate
player application to generate a LineOut stimulus, and
Audacity to record on LineIn. That's if you needed to
check the amplifier response for some reason (sweep frequency
waveform). I don't think Audacity can do output and
input at the same time. You can also use two computers
and two soundcards, for characterization work, and then
two copies of Audacity are all that is needed (one on
each computer).

Paul

On 02/04/2021 16:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well its typical of the lower class entertainment of the times. Today we
have rap which is arguably even worse


No argument here. My mother was from Irish stock. For some strange
reason we celebrated Hogmanay with effing Harry Lauder and effing Jimmy
Shand. I can't stand Lulu either.

Another Dave


--
Change nospam to techie

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I think many line/mic inputs on pcs can be used with ceramic carts, but
there will be no eq, so you need an editor to do that and if you need to
change the speed as well. Golwave I used but others are very much the same.
Brian


The line card input is 10Kohms, not the higher value others
have recommended as a starting point. That's a pretty heavy
load.

I've never built my own phono amp, so can't comment on whether
Line In on its own is good enough.

You'd want a calibration recording (a 78RPM with sweep waveform
on it), to be able to do an end-to-end determination of goodness.
Whether using 10Kohm LineIn by itself, or using some
intermediary device. Listening by ear, that "something
needs a compensation curve", is a lot harder.

*******

The selection of 10Kohms for LineIn, is based on expected
sources. Computer outputs can be anywhere from:

600 ohms Output impedance of unboosted line level outputs
32 ohms Output impedance of "headphone port", where the
boost is turned on. The boost ruins the noise floor
by 10dB and should not be turned on indiscriminately.
1 ohm The small signal analysis value for a sound card
output with the boost one. (This is for newer HDaudio
CMOS codec chips.) If you tried to connect a 1 ohm load
to that, as proof of pudding, the magic smoke would
come out. Quoting this value, is merely to indicate
a figure of merit for goodness, not the ability to
run a toaster off it.

In all those cases, of expected input styles, the 10Kohms is sufficient
when dealing with those, and does not unduly load them. That's
how they decided 10Kohms was a good value. Nobody considered
using the sound card as a photomultiplier tube amplifier or something.
They didn't intend it as a lab oscilloscope. They could easily have
done that, if they wanted.

Computer sound was never given the ability to work with
dynamic (magnetic) input devices at the 2mV level. The
amplitude is too low, even with microphone boost turned on, to
work properly. But the 70mV from a ceramic cartridge
might be sufficient from an amplitude point of view.
I bow to others on the value of input impedance required
to get the piezo cartridge to follow the input properly.
Anything I've plugged into the sound card, was usually
already buffered to one extent or another. My one good
computer microphone, has a four pin amplifier chip inside,
and the sound card doesn't need anything special for such
inputs.

Paul