On 01/04/2021 20:30, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 1 Apr 2021 19:19:38 +0100, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 01/04/2021 09:36, T i m wrote:

If you are talking of washing crockery, depending on how much and how
heavy the soiling (baked on stuff that might appreciate being soaked),
I wonder if Jeff could test / vouch for how practical it might be to
wash a plate under the instant hand washer?

Funnily enough I'd been thinking about that myself. I am sure it would
work very well - I never use a bowl for washing up anyway, just a thin
stream of hot water from the kitchen sink tap and a sponge/scourer pad
with some washing-up liquid on it.

Step daughter was fairly obsessed about rinsing any soap off her
washing up and so would tend to use even more heat / water.

That's why I prefer a good stream of water as it washes off the soap a
lot better than other methods.

The extra force of the instant-heater
spray should shift food residue on the plate far more efficiently than
the stream of water I use.

Agreed.

In any case, isn't that how dishwashers work
- by spraying hot water onto the soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

It is indeed ... and possibly hotter water than we might want to
plunge our hands into, even with gloves?

I don't know how hot the water is. Maybe it's hotter for a prewash to
loosen or soften food which has solidified of otherwise stuck to the plate.

On a somewhat unrelated, or perhaps related, matter the problem of hard
water was raised earlier. Does anyone know why the heated parts don't
seem to suffer much from furring up, but spray heads and shower heads
do. Is it just that when they are switched off the calcium and magnesium
salts in the water are deposited when the water evaporates?

Good question but whilst you can get furring around the spout of a
kettle, you do also / more_often get it around the element?

Yes, but I think that's a different matter as the water is boiling, and
that leads to decomposition of salts such as soluble bicarbonates to
insoluble carbonates. With instant water heaters the water temperature
stays well below boiling.

--

Jeff

On Thu, 1 Apr 2021 22:12:25 +0100, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip

Step daughter was fairly obsessed about rinsing any soap off her
washing up and so would tend to use even more heat / water.

That's why I prefer a good stream of water as it washes off the soap a
lot better than other methods.

Agreed.

snip
In any case, isn't that how dishwashers work
- by spraying hot water onto the soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

It is indeed ... and possibly hotter water than we might want to
plunge our hands into, even with gloves?

I don't know how hot the water is.

Well, according to the front panel of ours, 50, 65 or 70 DegC?

Maybe it's hotter for a prewash to
loosen or soften food which has solidified of otherwise stuck to the plate.

It may mention the process in the instruction manual, if I can find a
copy.

snip

Good question but whilst you can get furring around the spout of a
kettle, you do also / more_often get it around the element?

Yes, but I think that's a different matter as the water is boiling, and
that leads to decomposition of salts such as soluble bicarbonates to
insoluble carbonates.

Ah, Ok.

With instant water heaters the water temperature
stays well below boiling.

Or should g, although you can sometimes hear them sizzling. Might
the water around the heater element be hotter than the surrounding
water, if it's a storage type (with no 'flow' to dissipate the water
more)?

Cheers, T i m

On 01/04/2021 22:52, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 1 Apr 2021 22:12:25 +0100, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip
In any case, isn't that how dishwashers work
- by spraying hot water onto the soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

It is indeed ... and possibly hotter water than we might want to
plunge our hands into, even with gloves?

I don't know how hot the water is.

Well, according to the front panel of ours, 50, 65 or 70 DegC?

I've just checked the manual for ours, and it says it goes up to 70°C -
with several washes at that temp for "ultra-clean" (It's a Smeg -
there's posh for you! - that was left here when we moved in. We've used
it only a dozen times or so in the past 8 years, as I can't be bothered
to fuff around loading and unloading it as there's only the two of us.
We use it as a storage cupboard for cold drinks!).

Maybe it's hotter for a prewash to
loosen or soften food which has solidified of otherwise stuck to the plate.

It may mention the process in the instruction manual, if I can find a
copy.

According to the Smeg's manual, the prewash is effectively a cold soak
to soften anything on the plates, etc.

With instant water heaters the water temperature
stays well below boiling.

Or should g, although you can sometimes hear them sizzling. Might
the water around the heater element be hotter than the surrounding
water, if it's a storage type (with no 'flow' to dissipate the water
more)?

I think the storage type heaters can can get up to almost boiling if
that's what you want. I'm pretty sure the continuous flow ones couldn't
get anywhere near that even if you wanted them to without a 10kW+ supply.

--

Jeff

T i m wrote:
On 01 Apr 2021 16:40:56 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

I was wondering about feeding an instant electric heater from a hot water
supply.

Coincidentally I have referenced such an idea elsewhere and belive
someone here is already (successfully) doing such a thing.

I set the temperature on our Multipoint to not be too hot (for hands)
when running at full temperature but there may be a slight conflict of
interest between the temp required at the basin and the sink (the sink
maybe wanting it hotter for heavy soiled crockery / cookware if we CBA
to use the dishwasher).

Do they all have thermostats? I was wondering if they apply the cheap
electric shower approach which is to bang 8-10kW into the incoming water
feed without paying a lot of attention to the inlet temperature or flow rate
(beyond simple cutouts). That is less good when the pressure drops, and
very much less good when there could be a 50C range in the inlet
temperature.

Reason I ask is that I watched a video of someone who had his ASHP set to
make the tank 40C and used that neat for washing. That's much more
efficient than running at 60C and then mixing down again. (You still do a
Legionella cycle once a week to kill off the nasties). But 40C water
isn't ideal for dish washing, so wondered if a boost was feasible...

Theo

On 01/04/2021 19:19, Jeff Layman wrote:
The extra force of the instant-heater spray should shift food residue on
the plate far more efficiently than the stream of water I use. In any
case, isn't that how dishwashers work - by spraying hot water onto the
soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

get a dog. Polished clean plates which are then easy to 'wash'

Andrew wrote:
if your water comes from Hardham then a lot of their water is now
sucked in from the adjacent river Arun. They built a new inlet and
piped it under the A29 to get to Hardham treatment works.

Not a lot of people know that there's a long forgotten canal tunnel linking
Arun and Rother at Hardham:
http://sias2.pastfinder.org.uk/sih_1...08/41-2011.pdf
I wonder if they reused any of that for the inlet?

Theo

On 02/04/2021 13:41, Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
if your water comes from Hardham then a lot of their water is now
sucked in from the adjacent river Arun. They built a new inlet and
piped it under the A29 to get to Hardham treatment works.

Not a lot of people know that there's a long forgotten canal tunnel linking
Arun and Rother at Hardham:
http://sias2.pastfinder.org.uk/sih_1...08/41-2011.pdf
I wonder if they reused any of that for the inlet?

Theo


No. British Rail tipped hundreds of tons of readymix into it back in
the 1960's where it goes under the Arun Valley railway line (which
prevents any hope of ever reopening it to boats).

The path of the canal is still obvious and is a local footpath. It is
derelict, as is the original lock on the other side of the railway
line and A29. Good place to study ducks, and other water birds.

The new Southern Water river inlet was built from scratch.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:54:57 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

No. British Rail tipped hundreds of tons of readymix into it back in
the 1960's where it goes under the Arun Valley railway line (which
prevents any hope of ever reopening it to boats).


So is it *that* it goes under railway that would prevent re-opening
for some reason ... because a bit of concrete has rarely stopped
tenacious volunteer engineers from re-opening all sorts of stuff
(locks / tunnels / cuttings etc?). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 02 Apr 2021 13:00:56 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On 01 Apr 2021 16:40:56 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

I was wondering about feeding an instant electric heater from a hot water
supply.

Coincidentally I have referenced such an idea elsewhere and belive
someone here is already (successfully) doing such a thing.

I set the temperature on our Multipoint to not be too hot (for hands)
when running at full temperature but there may be a slight conflict of
interest between the temp required at the basin and the sink (the sink
maybe wanting it hotter for heavy soiled crockery / cookware if we CBA
to use the dishwasher).

Do they all have thermostats?

Erm, both our Multipoint gas water heater and Triton T80 shower seem
able to modulate the output flow to maintain a constant temperature
but I'm not sure how well. Not a (safety) problem when the input water
goes from hot to cold ...

I was wondering if they apply the cheap
electric shower approach which is to bang 8-10kW into the incoming water
feed without paying a lot of attention to the inlet temperature or flow rate
(beyond simple cutouts). That is less good when the pressure drops,

Our shower deals with that 'a bit' and I put a flow restrictor valve
on the toilet cistern feed to minimise the impact of water pressure
drop to the shower output temperature.

and
very much less good when there could be a 50C range in the inlet
temperature.

Good point.

Reason I ask is that I watched a video of someone who had his ASHP set to
make the tank 40C and used that neat for washing. That's much more
efficient than running at 60C and then mixing down again.

Agreed.

(You still do a
Legionella cycle once a week to kill off the nasties).

Noted.

But 40C water
isn't ideal for dish washing, so wondered if a boost was feasible...

All good thoughts / points and there may (therefore) be a smaller list
of devices that may deal with any / all of that better than some.

If I was going to run an instant hand washer *anyway* (just on the
cold feed) it wouldn't take much to jury rig (a 3kW) one up to the
unused hot feed to our WM and see how / if it copes?

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 08:25:23 +0100, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip

I don't know how hot the water is.

Well, according to the front panel of ours, 50, 65 or 70 DegC?

I've just checked the manual for ours, and it says it goes up to 70°C -

Ok, well that ties in then.

with several washes at that temp for "ultra-clean" (It's a Smeg -
there's posh for you! - that was left here when we moved in. We've used
it only a dozen times or so in the past 8 years, as I can't be bothered
to fuff around loading and unloading it as there's only the two of us.
We use it as a storage cupboard for cold drinks!).

Or tumble dryer is currently being used for some toiletries cupboard
overspill. ;-)

snip

According to the Smeg's manual, the prewash is effectively a cold soak
to soften anything on the plates, etc.

Yeah. I think the problem with using hot for that, given a DW can only
spray not immerse etc is that if it sprayed hot then stopped, anything
not removed might be left to bake on to some degree?

I've never checked but do they dry the plates by running the heater
element in air or by spraying everything with very hot water then
leaving that to evaporate off?

With instant water heaters the water temperature
stays well below boiling.

Or should g, although you can sometimes hear them sizzling. Might
the water around the heater element be hotter than the surrounding
water, if it's a storage type (with no 'flow' to dissipate the water
more)?

I think the storage type heaters can can get up to almost boiling if
that's what you want.

I did fit a ball cock and WM input hose to a Baby Burco 'boiler' when
we first got this place and it actually worked pretty well as a
general hot water supply. ;-)

I'm pretty sure the continuous flow ones couldn't
get anywhere near that even if you wanted them to without a 10kW+ supply.

Agreed.

I think the 'point' of an inline heater of some sort for us (storage
or instant) is to reduce the time to hand washing temperature water,
and reduce water wastage as much as possible.

So either solution should work (on a cold feed) with the instant
likely to be both cheaper and easier to fit (mostly space but also
power and hot / cold water the other side of the wall).

When the Covid things is clear I'll have to go into mates shop and try
his instant hand washer myself.

I think I once timed hot water to our downstairs basin at about 20
seconds and mate suggested it's about 5-6 seconds with the instant.

With our Multipoint, the next person to use it still has to start with
cold / warm water and you still have the 20 seconds to properly hot
again. ;-(

Now I could reduce the copper pipe from 22 to 15mm which should reduce
that 20 delay but I'm guessing the copper itself would still take a
bit to warm up. I doubt it would impact the fill time to the bath but
would make the option of going back to a cylinder less
straightforward.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
Yeah. I think the problem with using hot for that, given a DW can only
spray not immerse etc is that if it sprayed hot then stopped, anything
not removed might be left to bake on to some degree?

That's what our inherited one does ('Diplomat'). It's pants. You put in
greasy oven trays or oven dishes and it bakes on the grease for you.

The problem with hot fill on dishwashers is that egg proteins coagulate with
hot water, whereas filling cold before heating dilutes them enough to
prevent coagulation.

I've never checked but do they dry the plates by running the heater
element in air or by spraying everything with very hot water then
leaving that to evaporate off?

I think they spray hot water around. This is why crockery (which has a high
thermal mass) dries better than plastic (which doesn't).

I think the 'point' of an inline heater of some sort for us (storage
or instant) is to reduce the time to hand washing temperature water,
and reduce water wastage as much as possible.

So either solution should work (on a cold feed) with the instant
likely to be both cheaper and easier to fit (mostly space but also
power and hot / cold water the other side of the wall).

We have an instant on a sink that's been retrofitted away from the main
plumbing. The leg would be maybe 8m from the tank, which is a bit much
for drawing from cold, especially if you're just washing your hands. OTOH
the instant is on a 13A plug and isn't much good at heating either - it
takes a long time to get going and doesn't give much more than a trickle.

Also, it seems to be beyond plumbers to insulate their internal pipes to
avoid cold legs. That's no help on taps you might use once a day, but would
seem to be a no-brainer for the bathroom/kitchen tap that get used regularly.

Theo

On 02/04/2021 17:27, Theo wrote:
T i m wrote:

I've never checked but do they dry the plates by running the heater
element in air or by spraying everything with very hot water then
leaving that to evaporate off?

I think they spray hot water around. This is why crockery (which has a high
thermal mass) dries better than plastic (which doesn't).

Left to itself, the water couldn't evaporate off the plates, as the
whole of the inside is hot and steamy. The manufacturers have thought of
that. Dishwashers have a labyrinth of cold water pipes attached to the
outside of the washing compartment. That condenses enough of the steam
so that water can evaporate off the plates.

The wash temperature matters. The hotter washes leave drier plates.

On 02 Apr 2021 17:27:56 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
Yeah. I think the problem with using hot for that, given a DW can only
spray not immerse etc is that if it sprayed hot then stopped, anything
not removed might be left to bake on to some degree?

That's what our inherited one does ('Diplomat'). It's pants. You put in
greasy oven trays or oven dishes and it bakes on the grease for you.

LOL!

The problem with hot fill on dishwashers is that egg proteins coagulate with
hot water, whereas filling cold before heating dilutes them enough to
prevent coagulation.

Ah, clever.

I've never checked but do they dry the plates by running the heater
element in air or by spraying everything with very hot water then
leaving that to evaporate off?

I think they spray hot water around. This is why crockery (which has a high
thermal mass) dries better than plastic (which doesn't).

Check. I wasn't sure if the level of steam was from sprayed hot water
or water evaporating off the stuff.

I think the 'point' of an inline heater of some sort for us (storage
or instant) is to reduce the time to hand washing temperature water,
and reduce water wastage as much as possible.

So either solution should work (on a cold feed) with the instant
likely to be both cheaper and easier to fit (mostly space but also
power and hot / cold water the other side of the wall).

We have an instant on a sink that's been retrofitted away from the main
plumbing. The leg would be maybe 8m from the tank, which is a bit much
for drawing from cold, especially if you're just washing your hands.

Noted.

OTOH
the instant is on a 13A plug and isn't much good at heating either - it
takes a long time to get going

Time roughly? More than 5-6 seconds?

and doesn't give much more than a trickle.

So we are talking more of a host outlet than a spray here?

Also, it seems to be beyond plumbers to insulate their internal pipes to
avoid cold legs. That's no help on taps you might use once a day, but would
seem to be a no-brainer for the bathroom/kitchen tap that get used regularly.

That's what I thought but my builder suggested to leave them bare so
they would benefit form any surrounding heat, and hopefully stopping
them freezing in the winter if the place was left unheated? Only for
those pipes running though the downstairs ceilings obviously.

If you were to lag those pipes efficiently I wonder if you could keep
the whole pip hot (or warm at least) with a thermostatic heater wire
and if it would be any less economical than buying / fitting / running
a real supplementary water heater?

If all we are doing is buying some time by removing the cold leg, what
if we removed the 'cold' part of the leg? ;-)

If you couldn't insulate the whole pipe properly there could be the
chance of gravity / convection circulation within the pipe itself,
spreading the heat to any sections without good insulation?

Or if I get rid of the tumble dryer and re-position the multipoint
heater in the utility area, then the pipe runs to both hand basin,
bath and sink would only be a couple of meters. ;-)

What are the rules re a balanced flue terminal being over the pavement
(EOT)? (it's there atm but 20' above the pavement, not 6'). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 02/04/2021 14:25, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:54:57 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

No. British Rail tipped hundreds of tons of readymix into it back in
the 1960's where it goes under the Arun Valley railway line (which
prevents any hope of ever reopening it to boats).


So is it *that* it goes under railway that would prevent re-opening
for some reason ... because a bit of concrete has rarely stopped
tenacious volunteer engineers from re-opening all sorts of stuff
(locks / tunnels / cuttings etc?). ;-)

Cheers, T i m


The canal predated the railway which just infilled the canal
with spoil and went over the top. BR later 'improved' the
infill with ready mixed concrete. Opening the canal would only
be possible by dropping its level to such an extent that the
connections to the river at either end would be 'tricky'.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 18:26:37 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 02/04/2021 14:25, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:54:57 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

No. British Rail tipped hundreds of tons of readymix into it back in
the 1960's where it goes under the Arun Valley railway line (which
prevents any hope of ever reopening it to boats).


So is it *that* it goes under railway that would prevent re-opening
for some reason ... because a bit of concrete has rarely stopped
tenacious volunteer engineers from re-opening all sorts of stuff
(locks / tunnels / cuttings etc?). ;-)

Cheers, T i m


The canal predated the railway which just infilled the canal
with spoil and went over the top. BR later 'improved' the
infill with ready mixed concrete. Opening the canal would only
be possible by dropping its level to such an extent that the
connections to the river at either end would be 'tricky'.

Ah, thanks.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 17:46:53 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 02/04/2021 17:27, Theo wrote:
T i m wrote:

I've never checked but do they dry the plates by running the heater
element in air or by spraying everything with very hot water then
leaving that to evaporate off?

I think they spray hot water around. This is why crockery (which has a high
thermal mass) dries better than plastic (which doesn't).

Left to itself, the water couldn't evaporate off the plates, as the
whole of the inside is hot and steamy. The manufacturers have thought of
that. Dishwashers have a labyrinth of cold water pipes attached to the
outside of the washing compartment. That condenses enough of the steam
so that water can evaporate off the plates.

Clever, it's own little still. ;-)

The wash temperature matters. The hotter washes leave drier plates.

That was one of the two ways I thought it might work, given you do get
a fair cloud of steam out of it if you open the door just after it's
finished.

Clever really (how / that they work) and something we probably take
for granted.

I think the only thing we haven't had much success with over two
machines now is the little soap dispenser door thing when it doesn't
open at all (randomly)?

So I think she just chucks the (typically 'Finish') tab on one of the
racks.

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 17:46:53 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 02/04/2021 17:27, Theo wrote:
T i m wrote:

I've never checked but do they dry the plates by running the heater
element in air or by spraying everything with very hot water then
leaving that to evaporate off?

I think they spray hot water around. This is why crockery (which has a
high
thermal mass) dries better than plastic (which doesn't).

Left to itself, the water couldn't evaporate off the plates, as the
whole of the inside is hot and steamy. The manufacturers have thought of
that. Dishwashers have a labyrinth of cold water pipes attached to the
outside of the washing compartment. That condenses enough of the steam
so that water can evaporate off the plates.

Clever, it's own little still. ;-)

The wash temperature matters. The hotter washes leave drier plates.

That was one of the two ways I thought it might work, given you do get
a fair cloud of steam out of it if you open the door just after it's
finished.

Clever really (how / that they work) and something we probably take
for granted.

I think the only thing we haven't had much success with over two
machines now is the little soap dispenser door thing when it doesn't
open at all (randomly)?

So I think she just chucks the (typically 'Finish') tab on one of the
racks.

That doesn't work with some dishwashers/cycles
which have a rinse phase before the wash phase.

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:03:22 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
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MID:

On 02/04/2021 13:21, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:19, Jeff Layman wrote:
The extra force of the instant-heater spray should shift food residue on
the plate far more efficiently than the stream of water I use. In any
case, isn't that how dishwashers work - by spraying hot water onto the
soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

get a dog. Polished clean plates which are then easy to 'wash'

LoL!

--

Jeff

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:21:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 01/04/2021 19:19, Jeff Layman wrote:
The extra force of the instant-heater spray should shift food residue on
the plate far more efficiently than the stream of water I use. In any
case, isn't that how dishwashers work - by spraying hot water onto the
soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

get a dog. Polished clean plates which are then easy to 'wash'

And as an added bonus they can be induced to eat your surplus to
requirements Granny.

"Mike Halmarack" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:21:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 01/04/2021 19:19, Jeff Layman wrote:
The extra force of the instant-heater spray should shift food residue on
the plate far more efficiently than the stream of water I use. In any
case, isn't that how dishwashers work - by spraying hot water onto the
soiled crockery, pans, and cutlery?

get a dog. Polished clean plates which are then easy to 'wash'

And as an added bonus they can be induced to eat your surplus to
requirements Granny.

But not as effective as the hindu approach with
surplus mother in laws. She goes on the funeral
pyre with hubby's corpse whether she likes it or not.

The damned dogs don't get rid of the individual
anything like as quickly. But their farts arent as
polluting as the funeral pyre, admittedly.

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:05:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
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nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
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