Hi, I've trawled your FAQ (learning some interesting things about
expanding foam and SaniFlo!) and checked your Google USENET archive, but
haven't found really what I'm looking for.

My parents have a 29yr-old solid fuel Parkray 77Q and back boiler (2 bed
Victorian terrace, 4 radiators, HW tank). They retire in a few weeks and
expect a small cash lump ~£2.8K, they'd like a more convenient system.
They don't have gas on the property but the main is only 12ft away from
the front of the house.

I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack of a
supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc. To get the
lowest installation cost I was thinking night storage heaters, but then
found an electric boiler (www.fifas.eu.com/heating_systems.html). The
plan would be to use this for heating only (Economy 7/10), replace the
HW cylinder and add an immersion with thermostat and programmable timer
for HW. The fire and back boiler would be replaced with a mainly
decorative electric fire and a large double radiator on a nearby wall.

Bit concerned though that the radiators are 29yrs old, although
convective flow alone (pump turned off) heats the upstairs radiators to
~45C so it can't be too clogged up). Manual labour costs would also have
to be included in the bill, although if I'm available I'll help out with
electrics and plastering, etc. If the radiators need replacing then that
might tip the balance back to night storage heaters.

Given the small nest egg it worries me whether they could attempt to
change their system, what do others think about the cost and the
electric boiler plan?

NB: I believe they should qualify for a grant, but they were turned down
recently because the system currently works! They fill the fire 4 times
a day and can hardly carry the coal buckets through the house!

Best,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- FAQ: www.diyfaq.org.uk
- Archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=uk.d-i-y
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

"Andrew Urquhart" wrote in message
news:I7E3c.3816$54.3650@newsfe1-win...

My parents have a 29yr-old solid fuel Parkray 77Q and back boiler (2 bed
Victorian terrace, 4 radiators, HW tank). They retire in a few weeks and
expect a small cash lump ~£2.8K, they'd like a more convenient system.
They don't have gas on the property but the main is only 12ft away from
the front of the house.

I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack of a
supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc. To get the
lowest installation cost I was thinking night storage heaters, but then
found an electric boiler (www.fifas.eu.com/heating_systems.html). The
plan would be to use this for heating only (Economy 7/10), replace the
HW cylinder and add an immersion with thermostat and programmable timer
for HW. The fire and back boiler would be replaced with a mainly
decorative electric fire and a large double radiator on a nearby wall.

Bit concerned though that the radiators are 29yrs old, although
convective flow alone (pump turned off) heats the upstairs radiators to
~45C so it can't be too clogged up). Manual labour costs would also have
to be included in the bill, although if I'm available I'll help out with
electrics and plastering, etc. If the radiators need replacing then that
might tip the balance back to night storage heaters.

Given the small nest egg it worries me whether they could attempt to
change their system, what do others think about the cost and the
electric boiler plan?

Do the sums for yourself (and them) but I'd expect they'd be much better off
in the long run with gas than electrickery. Unless (or even if) the upstairs
floors are concrete it would be possible to install entirely new pipework
for rads if that were necessary; it'd just mean surface pipework drops from
upstairs to the ground floor. I wouldn't expect them to get much (if any)
change from their lump sum though: I don't know how much the gas connection
would be but I'd expect you should be able to get a CH installed for about
£2-2.5K*. If you have a sympathetic installer and are prepared to run the
pipework and hang radiators yourself (under the installer's directions) you
could possibly halve the installation cost. If you can help with
draughtproofing and insulation of their place you'll help them with the
running costs too.

* Depending on area but I'm guessing they don't live in Mayfair or Chelsea
:-)

BTW if you do go for gas then get them to put the gas meter nearest where
the installer wants to put the boiler: it'll save lots of expensive
pipework. Unless the gas folks are going to charge loads extra for doing so,
of course.

John Stumbles wrote:
"Andrew Urquhart" wrote:
Do the sums for yourself (and them) but I'd expect they'd be much
better off in the long run with gas than electrickery. Unless (or
even if) the upstairs floors are concrete it would be possible to
install entirely new pipework for rads if that were necessary; it'd
just mean surface pipework drops from upstairs to the ground floor. I
wouldn't expect them to get much (if any) change from their lump sum
though: I don't know how much the gas connection would be but I'd
expect you should be able to get a CH installed for about £2-2.5K*.
If you have a sympathetic installer and are prepared to run the
pipework and hang radiators yourself (under the installer's
directions) you could possibly halve the installation cost. If you
can help with draughtproofing and insulation of their place you'll
help them with the running costs too.

Hi John thanks for the advice, it's appreciated. Doing the sums is a
little tricky when you've only ever had an "always-on" boiler and don't
know how long each daily heating period would need to be. Therefore I've
been basing running costs on the example given he
www.fifas.eu.com/dynamix_running_costs.html, which is for a system with
more radiators than we would need and for a higher unit price than I
would expect. At the moment my parents pay £7.50 a week for a bag of
"coke" (well more accurately it's coke, coal, coalite and stone!) given
that cost the electric system would probably be on a par in terms of
running costs.

BTW it's only the ground floors that are concrete!

In the reply to "Natural Philosopher" I was concerned about the cost of
getting Transco to fit the mains supply and additional installation
costs that seem unnecessary with the proposed electric system. I may not
be available to offer help during installation, and so I can't be
reliably factored into the cost of the system. With a budget as tight as
this one, and with no possible scope for extension, I'm not sure GCH
with a 10% safety margin on cost is best for my parents.

Best,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=uk.d-i-y
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

Andrew Urquhart wrote:

Hi, I've trawled your FAQ (learning some interesting things about
expanding foam and SaniFlo!) and checked your Google USENET archive, but
haven't found really what I'm looking for.

My parents have a 29yr-old solid fuel Parkray 77Q and back boiler (2 bed
Victorian terrace, 4 radiators, HW tank). They retire in a few weeks and
expect a small cash lump ~£2.8K, they'd like a more convenient system.
They don't have gas on the property but the main is only 12ft away from
the front of the house.

I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack of a
supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc. To get the
lowest installation cost I was thinking night storage heaters, but then
found an electric boiler (www.fifas.eu.com/heating_systems.html). The
plan would be to use this for heating only (Economy 7/10), replace the
HW cylinder and add an immersion with thermostat and programmable timer
for HW. The fire and back boiler would be replaced with a mainly
decorative electric fire and a large double radiator on a nearby wall.

Bit concerned though that the radiators are 29yrs old, although
convective flow alone (pump turned off) heats the upstairs radiators to
~45C so it can't be too clogged up). Manual labour costs would also have
to be included in the bill, although if I'm available I'll help out with
electrics and plastering, etc. If the radiators need replacing then that
might tip the balance back to night storage heaters.

Given the small nest egg it worries me whether they could attempt to
change their system, what do others think about the cost and the
electric boiler plan?

NB: I believe they should qualify for a grant, but they were turned down
recently because the system currently works! They fill the fire 4 times
a day and can hardly carry the coal buckets through the house!



Whatever they do, it should NOT be electricity.

Frankly, mortgage/loan to buy gas CH will be cheaper in the interest
than the electricity bills.


Best,

Andrew Urquhart wrote:
My parents have a 29yr-old solid fuel Parkray 77Q and back boiler (2 bed
Victorian terrace, 4 radiators, HW tank). They retire in a few weeks and
expect a small cash lump ~£2.8K, they'd like a more convenient system.
They don't have gas on the property but the main is only 12ft away from
the front of the house.

Find out about supply installation costs first.


I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack of a
supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc.

Why? You only need to replace the boiler, the rest of the system may
well be OK. BTW, if you want a floor standing Stelrad conventional
boiler used for about 3 weeks in 1995 and dry-stored since you can
have it.


To get the
lowest installation cost I was thinking night storage heaters, but then
found an electric boiler (www.fifas.eu.com/heating_systems.html). The
plan would be to use this for heating only (Economy 7/10), replace the
HW cylinder and add an immersion with thermostat and programmable timer
for HW. The fire and back boiler would be replaced with a mainly
decorative electric fire and a large double radiator on a nearby wall.

Um. They may not like humping coal 4 times a day, but they *will*
miss the fire if it goes completely... why not keep it, but de-
commission the back boiler.


Bit concerned though that the radiators are 29yrs old, although
convective flow alone (pump turned off) heats the upstairs radiators to
~45C so it can't be too clogged up). Manual labour costs would also have
to be included in the bill, although if I'm available I'll help out with
electrics and plastering, etc. If the radiators need replacing then that
might tip the balance back to night storage heaters.

If they don't leak now, they should be OK!


Given the small nest egg it worries me whether they could attempt to
change their system, what do others think about the cost and the
electric boiler plan?

I don't like the electric boiler plan. Presumably they've an immersion
now, for when a fire isn't needed. If you keep as much as you can of
the original system it will reduce startup cost and considerably reduce
any disruption.


NB: I believe they should qualify for a grant, but they were turned down
recently because the system currently works! They fill the fire 4 times
a day and can hardly carry the coal buckets through the house!

Grant? Crikey!

--
J.B.

Jerry Built wrote:
Find out about supply installation costs first.

Hi Jerry. It's in progress, still waiting for a reply. Yes it could
swing plans in a different direction if it's do-able, I was hoping
someone might have had first-hand experience here in uk.d-i-y.

Andrew wrote:
I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack
of a supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc.

Why? You only need to replace the boiler, the rest of the system may
well be OK. BTW, if you want a floor standing Stelrad conventional
boiler used for about 3 weeks in 1995 and dry-stored since you can
have it.

I expect the cost to be sky-high for paying Transco to dig up the street
and for someone else to thread a gas pipe from the front to the very
back of an old and small Victorian house! It is already hoped that they
can use the majority of their current wet system, depending on the
unknown condition of the radiators. Removing the old back boiler,
Parkray, hearth and surround is something also needed to be factored in.
Thanks for the offer of a Stelrad boiler, but I have *absolutely no
idea* if it's best for my parents situation.

Um. They may not like humping coal 4 times a day, but they *will*
miss the fire if it goes completely... why not keep it, but de-
commission the back boiler.

They know they will miss the Parkray, but they are thinking ahead to
when neither of them can carry a coal bucket. Continuing to run the
Parkray would not ease the daily maintenence burden for them and would
considerably increase overall running costs. It's bad enough at the
moment that they have to squeeze their way through the house with a
glowing ashpan belching sulphurous fumes and setting the smoke alarms
off, god knows what the outcome would be if they tripped up whilst
carrying it.

Presumably they've an immersion
now, for when a fire isn't needed. If you keep as much as you can of
the original system it will reduce startup cost and considerably
reduce any disruption.

The immersion needs replacing (I'd say it was on the verge of actually
being dangerous). Yes, keeping almost all of the original system is the
plan. The electric boiler idea (www.fifas.eu.com/testimonials.html)
seemed to offer the best financial position since installation costs
should be small and it re-uses the current wet system. GCH re-uses the
wet system but would require significant installation costs and usually
the most expensive part of any professional work is labour costs :-/

Cheers,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=uk.d-i-y
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Whatever they do, it should NOT be electricity.

Frankly, mortgage/loan to buy gas CH will be cheaper in the interest
than the electricity bills.

Thanks for the reply. I realise that GCH would be the better option,
however, they'll be _retiring in a couple of weeks_ mortgage/loan are
simply not options, the budget _cannot_ be increased, therefore
installation cost is critical. Getting Transco to lay a connection to
the house is not likely to be cheap. Additionally a GCH boiler in the
kitchen would require extensive new copper pipework and ultimately may
not be do-able because of a lack of suitable space on the 1 external
kitchen wall (it's an awkward space under a small building extension).

The electric boiler I linked to earlier in the thread seemed to have
favourable running costs even when using a standard domestic unit price
(9kW @ 6p/Unit). It also requires little installation expense and can be
situated on internal walls close to existing pipework. More info in the
reply to John.

Best,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=uk.d-i-y
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

Andrew Urquhart wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Whatever they do, it should NOT be electricity.

Frankly, mortgage/loan to buy gas CH will be cheaper in the interest
than the electricity bills.

Thanks for the reply. I realise that GCH would be the better option,
however, they'll be _retiring in a couple of weeks_ mortgage/loan are
simply not options, the budget _cannot_ be increased, therefore
installation cost is critical. Getting Transco to lay a connection to
snip
The electric boiler I linked to earlier in the thread seemed to have
favourable running costs even when using a standard domestic unit price
(9kW @ 6p/Unit). It also requires little installation expense and can be
situated on internal walls close to existing pipework. More info in the
reply to John.

They are likely to need more heat, as they are both retiring.
This may almost double the energy needs, as the house needs heated
for twice as long.
From memory, a 50Kg(?)bag of coal is around 340 units of electricity, in
a 100% efficiant boiler.
That would imply that the current heating needs are under 170 units/week.

Assuming this doubles, then you'r talking about 20 quid a week on electricity,
or 1000 quid a year.
Gas will easily be a third of this cost.
A loan, paying back over a couple of years, could well keep the total bills
with gas under those of electricity, even if you needed a grand or two
loan.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Andrew Urquhart wrote:
The electric boiler I linked to earlier in the thread
seemed to have favourable running costs even when using a standard
domestic unit price (9kW @ 6p/Unit). It also requires little
installation expense and can be situated on internal walls close to
existing pipework. More info in the reply to John.

They are likely to need more heat, as they are both retiring.
This may almost double the energy needs, as the house needs heated
for twice as long.

Hi Ian. This wouldn't actually be the case, for my parents there would
be no change in the hours of occupancy.

From memory, a 50Kg(?)bag of coal is around 340 units of
electricity, in a 100% efficiant boiler. That would imply that
the current heating needs are under 170 units/week.

Yes, without being qualified to know, 50% efficiency in the current
system seems reasonable to me, if not less.

Assuming this doubles, then you'r talking about 20 quid a week on
electricity, or 1000 quid a year.

Well the doubling wouldn't happen so that's down to £10 again. However,
there are a couple more things to consider: No heating during summer,
but this may offset additional consumption during winter. The fact that
for much of the year the house is far too hot to be comfortable, so the
current heat output of the coke fire is too great, ergo the initial
energy requirement per week with a controllable system should be less
than 170 units, although I couldn't say what figure, but would push the
cost somewhat below £10 a week, perhaps to the £7.50 they currently pay.

Gas will easily be a third of this cost.
A loan, paying back over a couple of years, could well keep the total
bills with gas under those of electricity, even if you needed a grand
or two loan.

Hmmn, the loan is food for thought, if pensioners with just a basic
state entitlement are eligible.

Cheers,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

"Andrew Urquhart" wrote in message
news:QaK3c.3981$54.742@newsfe1-win...
Ian Stirling wrote:

From memory, a 50Kg(?)bag of coal is around 340 units of
electricity, in a 100% efficiant boiler. That would imply that
the current heating needs are under 170 units/week.

Well the doubling wouldn't happen so that's down to £10 again. However,
there are a couple more things to consider: No heating during summer,
but this may offset additional consumption during winter. The fact that
for much of the year the house is far too hot to be comfortable, so the
current heat output of the coke fire is too great, ergo the initial
energy requirement per week with a controllable system should be less
than 170 units, although I couldn't say what figure, but would push the
cost somewhat below £10 a week, perhaps to the £7.50 they currently pay.

Ian is about right, and given the above information, plus
the existing continuous occupancy and good insulation...

They are currently running at 1 or 2 kW heat permanently;
this is a tiny amount, you can get that out of one radiator.
I don't know how much the fifas would cost, but I can't
see it being worth buying over individual electric heaters.
Either way I think one storage heater downstairs could
be worthwhile, as well as a large HW tank on Economy 7.

A lot of people wouldn't like it, but it might be a workable
solution for your situation.

Andrew Urquhart wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Whatever they do, it should NOT be electricity.

Frankly, mortgage/loan to buy gas CH will be cheaper in the interest
than the electricity bills.


Thanks for the reply. I realise that GCH would be the better option,
however, they'll be _retiring in a couple of weeks_ mortgage/loan are
simply not options,


If they own,or even partly own, the house, mortgage IS an option.

the budget _cannot_ be increased, therefore
installation cost is critical. Getting Transco to lay a connection to
the house is not likely to be cheap. Additionally a GCH boiler in the
kitchen would require extensive new copper pipework and ultimately may
not be do-able because of a lack of suitable space on the 1 external
kitchen wall (it's an awkward space under a small building extension).

The electric boiler I linked to earlier in the thread seemed to have
favourable running costs even when using a standard domestic unit price
(9kW @ 6p/Unit). It also requires little installation expense and can be
situated on internal walls close to existing pipework. More info in the
reply to John.



*shrug*. Don't say I didn't warn you....


Best,

"Andrew Urquhart" wrote
| My parents have a 29yr-old solid fuel Parkray 77Q and back boiler
| (2 bed Victorian terrace, 4 radiators, HW tank). They retire in
| a few weeks and expect a small cash lump ~£2.8K, they'd like a
| more convenient system.
| They don't have gas on the property but the main is only 12ft away
| from the front of the house.

It's impossible to give any guesstimate figures for the cost of installing a
gas supply so contact Transco and find out what it will be in your parents'
location.

Then contact a couple of local estate agents and find out what the current
value of the house is vs if it had a new gas CH/HW system. It's one of the
basics for improving and adding value to a house, and installing gas might
actually be profitable in the long term.

On the cynical side, if they have few other savings, that lump sum will
provide no worthwhile income and little cushion in the event of financial
emergency, yet it will be counted against them in any assessment for
benefits or care. Spending a little more now on getting the house sorted out
for minimal maintenance for the next 20+ years, if they stay living there,
is probably better than some vague 'rainy day' provision. (Getting the roof
fixed is the best rainy day provision!)

The easiest conversion would probably be from the Parkray to a gas fire/back
boiler (the infamous Baxi Buggrit) but these are less favoured because they
are comparatively inefficient; they are also not room sealed.

For a 2-bed terrace a combi may be suitable; some space may be released by
losing the HW cylinder and, although bath filling will be slower, shower
pressure should be better. Sometimes older people find a shower easier than
sitting down in a bath. On the other hand, keeping the/a cylinder probably
means there'll be an immersion for back-up hot water.

| NB: I believe they should qualify for a grant, but they were turned
| down recently because the system currently works! They fill the fire
| 4 times a day and can hardly carry the coal buckets through the house!

They may however be able to get a grant for insulation, which is well worth
exploring - or doing yourself.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Urquhart" wrote

They may however be able to get a grant for insulation, which is well worth
exploring - or doing yourself.

Cavity wall insulation, glass fibre roof insulation, H/W tank insulation are
all heavily subsidised at the moment.
Typically the subsidy goes straight to the supplier.

Use http://www.sedbuk.com/ to compare running costs of gas and electricity.

Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"Owain" wrote in message
...
They may however be able to get a grant for insulation, which is
well worth exploring - or doing yourself.

Cavity wall insulation

Hi Michael. Not applicable!

glass fibre roof insulation

Over 1 foot thick already I think

H/W tank insulation

Already in place (newly replaced)

are all heavily subsidised at the moment.


Use http://www.sedbuk.com/ to compare running costs of gas and
electricity.

Shame it didn't have solid fuel in the list and then I could calibrate
it with the £390 they currently pay.

Cheers,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:45:34 -0000, "Andrew Urquhart"
wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
"Owain" wrote in message
...
They may however be able to get a grant for insulation, which is
well worth exploring - or doing yourself.

Cavity wall insulation

Hi Michael. Not applicable!

glass fibre roof insulation

Over 1 foot thick already I think

H/W tank insulation

Already in place (newly replaced)

are all heavily subsidised at the moment.


Use http://www.sedbuk.com/ to compare running costs of gas and
electricity.

Shame it didn't have solid fuel in the list and then I could calibrate
it with the £390 they currently pay.

Hi,

This document might be of help:

http://www.euroheat.co.uk/support/pd...on_Factors.pdf

If they are burning £7.50 a week on coal in the winter then gas would
bring that down to £2.75 given a 65% efficient coal boiler and 90%
efficient gas boiler and that gas is half as cheap as coal.

If the overall installation cost for gas is too high then adding a
couple of economy7 storage heaters as a backup/mild weather
alternative to the current setup might be one way to go. These are
more viable if they are in most of the day and you might be able to
get a couple for next to nothing.

*If* they stick with coal consider getting a spare ash pan, then they
can stick one out the back door to cool down and put the other one in
the fire. And how about a trolly of some sort they can wheel coal
through the house with.

Also consider if other smokeless fuels like Phurnacite can be used,
it's very clean and stays in for a long time, and the ash pan will not
smoke when they remove it from the fire.

Finally if they do keep the coal stove it's worth getting a CO alarm
just in case, although coal stoves create a strong draught up the flue
and are very unlikely to release any CO.

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Shame it didn't have solid fuel in the list and then I could
calibrate it with the £390 they currently pay.

Hi,

Hi Pete

This document might be of help: snip url/

"Everything you wanted to know about fuel _and more_!"

If they are burning £7.50 a week on coal in the winter then gas would
bring that down to £2.75 given a 65% efficient coal boiler and 90%
efficient gas boiler and that gas is half as cheap as coal.

The more I hear this the less likely an electric boiler sounds )

If the overall installation cost for gas is too high then adding a
couple of economy7 storage heaters as a backup

An interesting idea, but it would only work for extended cool periods
and not if it suddenly gets very chilly in the afternoon of an otherwise
mild day. They tend to light the fire instead, only takes ~20 mins.

*If* they stick with coal consider getting a spare ash pan, then they
can stick one out the back door to cool down and put the other one in
the fire.

I'd be a bit concerned that both frequent and large thermal gradients
would trigger a nasty metal fatigue surprise half-way between hearth and
door!

And how about a trolly of some sort they can wheel coal
through the house with.

Could have been a good plan, but it's a small house and there's an
awkward bottle-neck in the middle that even a tiny trolley wouldn't fit
through (not good for fire safety either)

Also consider if other smokeless fuels like Phurnacite can be used,
it's very clean and stays in for a long time, and the ash pan will not
smoke when they remove it from the fire.

I'll get them to check with the coal man next delivery.

Finally if they do keep the coal stove it's worth getting a CO alarm
just in case, although coal stoves create a strong draught up the flue

You're not kidding, they could take up amateur ironmongery with the
ash-pan cover off!

Many thanks for the info,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

"Pete C" wrote
| *If* they stick with coal consider getting a spare ash pan, then
| they can stick one out the back door to cool down and put the
| other one in the fire. And how about a trolly of some sort they
| can wheel coal through the house with.

When my parents had a Parkray (now converted to a gas fire / back boiler -
on Calor) they managed to get a rectangular metal box with a hinged flap on
the small end. The ash pan could be lifted out of the Parkray, slid into the
horizontal metal box, then the ash pan handle unhooked and the lid of the
box closed. The box could then be carried vertically to outside, the ash pan
lifted out and brought back in, and the box emptied of its ashes once cold.
This saved a lot of dust and ash blowing about.

Owain

Owain wrote:
It's impossible to give any guesstimate figures for the cost of
installing a gas supply so contact Transco and find out what it will
be in your parents' location.

Hi Owain. Shame on the guestimate, but a request has been made for
advice from Transco so we're just waiting for a reply.

Then contact a couple of local estate agents and find out what the
current value of the house is vs if it had a new gas CH/HW system.
It's one of the basics for improving and adding value to a house, and
installing gas might actually be profitable in the long term.

I clearly see your reasoning, but from my perspective there a number of
things that would be need to be done (some *very* costly) to push the
value of their property up to the average property price for the
location. Given that premise, GCH installation may not produce the
return on investment that in other properties it most likely would.
However, in terms of running costs if for their circumstances gas is
significantly cheaper, a return on investment could be accomplished that
way, but of course there is a limit on the initial investiment that they
can make. A clearer picture will emerge when we have information from
Transco.

On the cynical side, if they have few other savings, that lump sum
will provide no worthwhile income and little cushion in the event of
financial emergency, yet it will be counted against them in any
assessment for benefits or care. Spending a little more now on
getting the house sorted out for minimal maintenance for the next 20+
years, if they stay living there, is probably better than some vague
'rainy day' provision. (Getting the roof fixed is the best rainy day
provision!)

If any money were left over it _would_ be consumed by repair/upgrade
work elsewhere in the house.

The easiest conversion would probably be from the Parkray to a gas
fire/back boiler (the infamous Baxi Buggrit) but these are less
favoured because they are comparatively inefficient; they are also
not room sealed.

Thanks we'll look into that, it certainly would seem to reduce the
installation costs for their circumstances.

For a 2-bed terrace a combi may be suitable; some space may be
released by losing the HW cylinder and, although bath filling will be
slower, shower pressure should be better. Sometimes older people find
a shower easier than sitting down in a bath. On the other hand,
keeping the/a cylinder probably means there'll be an immersion for
back-up hot water.

If the news from Transco is favourable then we'll put some serious
thought into the idea of a combi.

They may however be able to get a grant for insulation, which is well
worth exploring - or doing yourself.

Yes, they qualified for this and the work was done last year, with
particular effect was the tripling of the loft insulation, although the
down shot from this was that with a non-controllable heating system the
house is frequently too hot!

Best,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

The only way forward is to get a quote for gas installation - the connection
may not be as bad as you fear. I remain suspicious of electricity costs for
an electric boiler. 9KW @ 6p/unit makes it 50p/hr to run (when working
continuously).
"Andrew Urquhart" wrote in message
news:I7E3c.3816$54.3650@newsfe1-win...
Hi, I've trawled your FAQ (learning some interesting things about
expanding foam and SaniFlo!) and checked your Google USENET archive, but
haven't found really what I'm looking for.

My parents have a 29yr-old solid fuel Parkray 77Q and back boiler (2 bed
Victorian terrace, 4 radiators, HW tank). They retire in a few weeks and
expect a small cash lump ~£2.8K, they'd like a more convenient system.
They don't have gas on the property but the main is only 12ft away from
the front of the house.

I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack of a
supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc. To get the
lowest installation cost I was thinking night storage heaters, but then
found an electric boiler (www.fifas.eu.com/heating_systems.html). The
plan would be to use this for heating only (Economy 7/10), replace the
HW cylinder and add an immersion with thermostat and programmable timer
for HW. The fire and back boiler would be replaced with a mainly
decorative electric fire and a large double radiator on a nearby wall.

Bit concerned though that the radiators are 29yrs old, although
convective flow alone (pump turned off) heats the upstairs radiators to
~45C so it can't be too clogged up). Manual labour costs would also have
to be included in the bill, although if I'm available I'll help out with
electrics and plastering, etc. If the radiators need replacing then that
might tip the balance back to night storage heaters.

Given the small nest egg it worries me whether they could attempt to
change their system, what do others think about the cost and the
electric boiler plan?

NB: I believe they should qualify for a grant, but they were turned down
recently because the system currently works! They fill the fire 4 times
a day and can hardly carry the coal buckets through the house!

Best,
--
Andrew Urquhart
- FAQ: www.diyfaq.org.uk
- Archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=uk.d-i-y
- Reply: www.andrewu.co.uk/about/contact/

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:42:03 -0000, Harry Ziman wrote:

I remain suspicious of electricity costs for an electric boiler. 9KW
@ 6p/unit makes it 50p/hr to run (when working continuously).

But would it be using peak rate 'lectric? Getting E7 (approx 2.5p/unit
off peak) and a heatbank(*) to store the energy for use during the
following day is another possibilty and IMHO the only even vaguely
economic method of electricity based space heating.

Using significant amounts of power at ordinary or E7 peak rates gets
expensive, fast. Remember gas, oil etc are around 2p/unit

(*) Sometimes known as storage radiators, which bring with them all
the controllabilty problems. Cold snap, they run out of heat by the
evening, warm spell you have to open windows to dump the heat...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Andrew Urquhart" wrote in message
news:I7E3c.3816$54.3650@newsfe1-win...
I expect the cost of GCH in this case to be sky-high given the lack of a
supply, concrete floors that would need to be dug up, etc.

I had a supply put in by British Gas - was about £300 all-in.
Then spent ~£2.5k on a Combi boiler and 7 rads all fitted
(British Gas fitter but not from British Gas). The price will
vary according to where you are - and mine was a 3 bed
house so you would probably need less rads.

Electric heating either doesn't work or costs a fortune to run
if it does IMHO.

HTH,
Al

I should have said that the gas supply was put in
by Transco - I arranged it through british Gas however.

Al

I don't see why you need to dig up floors etc to any extent. If the supply
is that close, it may be possible to feed in at/ near first floor level
direct to a high/low wall mounted boiler. I have seen boilers which are
loft mounted with no problems once an access ladder is fitted.
Just some thoughts.
Regards
Capitol