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Default Long telescopic ladders?

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 02:34:04 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 21:21, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 20:18:22 +0000, williamwright
wrote:


It is determined by the 'what the
market will stand' principle.

Often (especially these days) but not always.

Always when there are shareholders.


Only the mercenary ones that seem feature in your world.


Now now! That's a bit harsh!


It isn't when you use the word 'always' when it's obviously not the
case (and you go on to admit).

I can only speak as I find.


We are back to the circles you move in then? ;-)

There is some
genuine philanthropy in business I grant you, but there is far more
virtue signaling, publicity gaining, tax avoidance,


Yes, I'm sure there is some of that.

and green-washing.


So can we at least agree that millions of people around the world are
dying from pollution that weren't say 200 years ago?

Can we agree that people living *with* nature are likely to have a
lower carbon footprint (and the demonstrable results stated above)
than say you?

If you can concede such things then I would be interested to hear what
you think we should do (if anything) to try to combat a further
escalation?

No-one is going to stand up in a
board meeting and advocate a policy that reduces profits.


It depends why the profits might become reduced. There are many modern
/ progressive companies who have shareholders specifically because of
their green or human rights considerations.


See above. Public relations.


As an experiment, just try to think there might be people out there
who naturally consider others (inc other animals) along with
themselves? (Crazy I know but give it a go). ;-)

That's not that I couldn't have made use of the extra cash of course,
but as long as I could live reasonably comfortably that was all I
*needed*.

Ah now, leaving aside my point below, some people have the attitude that
you display, whist others think, "There might be a rainy day ahead. I
need to maximise my income and save."


Yup, and there is nothing wrong with that ... and it can be done
whilst not fleecing anyone.


Of course it can.


Good.

That's what I did.


Good.

And I paid my taxes.


You say that like you were being benevolent. ;-)

And I did
freebies for hospices and dogs' homes.


That wasn't just virtue signaling and publicity gaining then?


For some people, *and businesses* money isn't the most important
thing. Of course it *is* important, in that they need to cover their
costs, pay wages and invest in their future, it'd just many have good
ethics as well.


Can't beat my ethics Tim.


Erm, only when it comes to *some* other animals?

OOI, *why* are you happy to care for a dog but not happy to care for a
baby sheep? What is it about either that makes you differentiate in
such a polarised way? What logic or ethics do you use to treat those
creatures so differently?

I think you're falling into the trap of
thinking that only people with your mindset can be ethical.


No, not at all, I just go by what people (say they) do.

Eg, you initially stated 'always' and have now accepted that it wasn't
'always'. You say you care for animals but clearly only care for
*some* animals. The devil re someone's ethics 'overall' can sometimes
be in the detail, even if you can't actually see it yourself ... yet.
;-)

Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 02:39:29 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 18:45, T i m wrote:

They
seem to only give the static load not any dynamic load figures. Is
climbing and descending a ladder a static load?


Good question, however, if they are rated as '150kg max load' you can
be fairly sure that won't be close to the failure point and in the
worst case of usage (eg, lower than 70 degrees or with someone
'bouncing' on it).


Never mind the theory. Any ladder that you plan to use, place it fully
extended horizontally on the ground, supported only at the ends by saw
horses or piles of beer crates or whatever. Climb onto the midpoint
carrying any likely load.


Hmmmm. So a 5m 3 piece ladder could fail that tests where the same
design in 3m might not? What if all 5m ladders failed (such an
unreasonable test for the intended design / use [1]) what would you do
then?

If it takes that it's OK. That was my periodic
test of ladders for all my years of using them.

Whilst that makes sense from your POV and whilst being willing to
accept the limitations of conventional ladders, it's no more valid for
my intended usage than seeing how easy it is to carry a piano in a
sports car.

Cheers, T i m

[1] Whilst I'm sure many would use a std 'climbing' ladder in ways not
covered by the instructions, that doesn't mean doing so is acceptable
or valid, as you would quickly learn from the solicitors of anyone
injured because of such.
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:43:24 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 21:54, T i m wrote:

Could (and this is back to the $100 question) a 'good' 5m telescopic
ladder give me useable access to a gutter 5m off the ground?



No, you need a ladder longer than 5m to reach 5m unless you intend to
rig your ladders in the same way as Fred Dibnah.


Yes, I know, but that wasn't really the question.

In addition, and as
mentioned previously, for gutter work (clearing gutters) you need a
ladder to extend beyond the gutter level by maybe 0.6m.


According to the official guidance I linked to previously, it
suggested you shouldn't work above the top of the ladder than past
your belly button. So, if I had a standoff and the ladder was directly
below (not underhung) I wouldn't need to go any higher than needed to
be able to see into the gutter and I could then reach what I could see
(whilst keeping my body directly over the ladder).

But yes, if to do that comfortably (including the 70 Deg ladder lean
angle) I needed a 6m ladder, that's what I would get (if I could).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04dGK1_wYA


Yeah, I used to watch him on the TV / Youtube a lot. ;-)

Cheers, T i m
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I have a 3 section ladder too myself that is 4.25 m when closed and
10.63 m when fully extended.

Now you are supposed to have a minimum of 4 rungs of overlap between
each section, so far so good....

But when my hieght is 1.83 and with extended arms adding another 0.8m
giving a maximum reach from the ground to push each section of ladder up
by 2.3 m.

So if one extends each section when resting up against the wall, thats a
max of 4.25 m + 2.3 m + 2.3 m = 8.85 m.... which is almost 2 m of 10.63
m fully extended.

The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the
ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully
extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.

Some ladders do have a pulley system but they do not seem all that common?
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On 21/11/2020 20:22, williamwright wrote:
On 21/11/2020 17:46, T i m wrote:
I think 'flex' is one of those things you would get (or have to get)
used to


The problem is, the top of the ladder gets dangerously steep when
there's too much flexing. You can't beat a good strong ladder. It wants
to feel like you're climbing a staircase.

Bill



I have a set of ladder stabilisers which helps massively with the mid
ladder sway you get when ascending said ladder....


It also helps to reduce teh risk of toppling (in addition to the top of
ladder stand off and the bottom of the ladder stabiliser)

I have have a proper pair of Dr Marten style Thick chunky soled boots to
avoid getting cramp or pain in feet when stood on a rung for a period of
time.


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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 02:50:44 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 21:54, T i m wrote:

The problem is, the top of the ladder gets dangerously steep when
there's too much flexing.


Sure, but I don't think they are made of rubber. Watching my
not-exactly-lightweight mate working on his CCTV camera at about 3m on
his telescopic ladder and I can't remember seeing it flex much at all?


Well that means it's alright then,


Well quite. ;-)

assuming he had it at a sensible angle.


It looked about right to me. No suggestion of him falling backwards or
the ladder coming away from the wall, but not so much of a lean that
it looked like the bottom would slip outwards (well, not past me
footing it etc).

Incidentally, most 'ladder guides' suggest angles that are too steep.
That's because they worry about the ladder sagging.


Ah, not the ladders you would buy eh, the ones you used could double
as emergency tank bridges. ;-)

But a decent ladder
can be put at more of an angle, which is very much safer.


Decent in that you can push it's design envelope further than you
should (by design). My point is it's not really anything to do with
how you personally use them but how they are designed to be used.

That said, you see some terrifying ladder work all over the place but
whilst they look terrifying, they may not be stressing the ladder as
much as if used by the official guidance.Like if you used one to
support a vertical load (like an Acrow prop) that may be far less
stress than your horizontal test.


You can't beat a good strong ladder.


Till you want to get it *in* the back of your hire van or in a lift?
;-(


Like I said, I have two telescopic ladder for restricted access situations.


Sorry, missed / forgot that. What lengths / makes are they OOI Bill?

It wants
to feel like you're climbing a staircase.


Oh, sure, but what if you don't have the storage options for a 'real'
ladder ... or enough of a predictable need but still have a
(especially domestic) need?


Surely you can find somewhere for a triple that extends to six metres?


Well, I do have an ally triple in the garden, only partially covered
and hasn't been used for years but the problem with it in use is how
much you lose on the overlap per section. And because I don't believe
it's long enough, I was thinking of replacing it with a telescopic
that I could store inside somewhere that was.

You can stand such a thing up in the corner of a room, and a domestic
quality one would be fine for you, and they don't weigh much, and you
can remove one section and it gives you a really useful double, and
there's no hidden 'works' and catches that can fail.


No room indoors to do such a thing and the workshop roof is full of
boat and steel stock etc.

That said, the workshop is ~240mm at the eaves so if I kept it inside
vertically, I might be able to get one of these in:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/werner-3-...ers-5-7m/133fv


Could (and this is back to the $100 question) a 'good' 5m telescopic
ladder give me useable access to a gutter 5m off the ground?


No because you need a ladder that extends well above the work height,


I think that depends on what sort of 'work' we are talking about Bill,
along with the frequency and duration of that work.

Eg, Say the ladder only reaches just under the gutter and I use a
standoff to bring it out level. According to the guidance I shouldn't
go higher than the top of the ladder past my belly button and so with
the case stated above, some of my upper body would be above the gutter
line. All I would need to remove the odd but of moss and part of a
slipped slate is my eyes and one arm?

and you need one that won't flap about like a big girl's blouse,


;-)

or
suddenly collapse due to a catch not latching properly.


I think if that's what they did regularly we would hear about it and
they would be pulled from the market?

Tim, all I'm trying to do is advise you from experience, in the hope
that you don't break your bloody neck.


No, I get it Bill ... and I'm just playing Devils Advocate with you
here to see *why* one of these telescopic ladders that they seem to
openly sell on the market and people obviously buy and use are so bad?

If you want to be stubborn about
it that's fine,


By 'stubborn' you mean 'not rolling over when you state how you used /
tested such things in your professional day-to-day job'. That's not
how I'll be using them. ;-(

but don't expect me to visit you in the spinal
rehabilitation centre.


No, and even if the ladder was to fail, I'm hoping it wouldn't come to
that as I've got some gear here I might also use (like an arrestor and
harness).

I will look into seeing what I could store in the workshop but space
*is* an issue here and I have to justify if I want to take up that
sort of space in the workshop (for the limited number of times they
might be used) compared with a hydraulic motorcycle bench. ;-)

Once they aren't being stored inside, they could be any length, if
they didn't need to be transported and didn't suffer for being stored
outside?

Cheers, T i m


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On 22/11/2020 02:50, williamwright wrote:
On 21/11/2020 21:54, T i m wrote:

The problem is, the top of the ladder gets dangerously steep when
there's too much flexing.


Sure, but I don't think they are made of rubber. Watching my
not-exactly-lightweight mate working on his CCTV camera at about 3m on
his telescopic ladder and I can't remember seeing it flex much at all?


Well that means it's alright then, assuming he had it at a sensible angle.

Incidentally, most 'ladder guides' suggest angles that are too steep.
That's because they worry about the ladder sagging. But a decent ladder
can be put at more of an angle, which is very much safer.


You can't beat a good strong ladder.


Till you want to get it *in* the back of your hire van or in a lift?
;-(


Like I said, I have two telescopic ladder for restricted access situations.


It wants
to feel like you're climbing a staircase.


Oh, sure, but what if you don't have the storage options for a 'real'
ladder ... or enough of a predictable need but still have a
(especially domestic) need?


Surely you can find somewhere for a triple that extends to six metres?
You can stand such a thing up in the corner of a room, and a domestic
quality one would be fine for you, and they don't weigh much, and you
can remove one section and it gives you a really useful double, and
there's no hidden 'works' and catches that can fail.


Could (and this is back to the $100 question) a 'good' 5m telescopic
ladder give me useable access to a gutter 5m off the ground?


No because you need a ladder that extends well above the work height,
and you need one that won't flap about like a big girl's blouse, or
suddenly collapse due to a catch not latching properly.

Tim, all I'm trying to do is advise you from experience, in the hope
that you don't break your bloody neck. If you want to be stubborn about
it that's fine, but don't expect me to visit you in the spinal
rehabilitation centre.

Bill



I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its
at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot
on it....
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On 22/11/2020 10:42, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:43:24 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 21:54, T i m wrote:

Could (and this is back to the $100 question) a 'good' 5m telescopic
ladder give me useable access to a gutter 5m off the ground?



No, you need a ladder longer than 5m to reach 5m unless you intend to
rig your ladders in the same way as Fred Dibnah.


Yes, I know, but that wasn't really the question.


I read the question as would a 5m ladder give me USEABLE access to a
gutter 5m off the ground? What do you believe the question to be and
what answer would you expect?

Consider how much longer the ladder has to be if the angled away from
the wall. At 75 degrees you would need a 5.6m ladder (and using a
stand-off doesn't change this)


According to the official guidance I linked to previously, it
suggested you shouldn't work above the top of the ladder than past
your belly button. So, if I had a standoff and the ladder was directly
below (not underhung) I wouldn't need to go any higher than needed to
be able to see into the gutter and I could then reach what I could see
(whilst keeping my body directly over the ladder).


You have obviously not tried to clear a gutter with a ladder that only
just reaches the gutter (with or without a stand-off). You would find
with your belly button at the top of the ladder you have nothing to hold
on to with your "spare" hand except the gutter, which unlike those
portrayed in comedy films it will not support your weight if you are
considering it as your backup safety measure.

But having read all the official advice and ignored all the practical
advice I'm sure that you now have a cast iron guarantee that your
preferred solution is safe.

Just make sure that someone or something is footing the ladder. I'm not
a regular user of a ladder but when working alone I have two 25Kg bags
of sand or shingle at the foot of the ladder to help prevent movement. I
have 3 ladders, a 3.X metre telescopic, a light weight aluminium 2
section that extends to around 7m and a very heavy aluminium 2 stage
that extend to around 1m above my gutter height. Whilst the latter is a
complete PITA to erect (it is heavy) it is the only one that I would
consider using for clearing the gutters in my 1905 property.

Even for indoor use my preference over the telescopic ladder is an
aluminium step ladder that converts into an "up to" 3m conventional ladder.



--
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On 22/11/2020 11:23, No Name wrote:

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its
at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot
on it....


With a long ladder its also worth standing well back from it to ensure
that standing vertically up the wall. When putting up a ladder it's
looked vertical from the base of the ladder but when standing back and
looking at it from a distance I've often found that it may have a lean
to the side by 0.5m at the top.


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On 22 Nov 2020 at 11:22:17 GMT, "T i m" wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 02:50:44 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 21:54, T i m wrote:

The problem is, the top of the ladder gets dangerously steep when
there's too much flexing.

Sure, but I don't think they are made of rubber. Watching my
not-exactly-lightweight mate working on his CCTV camera at about 3m on
his telescopic ladder and I can't remember seeing it flex much at all?


Well that means it's alright then,


Well quite. ;-)

assuming he had it at a sensible angle.


It looked about right to me. No suggestion of him falling backwards or
the ladder coming away from the wall, but not so much of a lean that
it looked like the bottom would slip outwards (well, not past me
footing it etc).

Incidentally, most 'ladder guides' suggest angles that are too steep.
That's because they worry about the ladder sagging.


Ah, not the ladders you would buy eh, the ones you used could double
as emergency tank bridges. ;-)

But a decent ladder
can be put at more of an angle, which is very much safer.


Decent in that you can push it's design envelope further than you
should (by design). My point is it's not really anything to do with
how you personally use them but how they are designed to be used.

That said, you see some terrifying ladder work all over the place but
whilst they look terrifying, they may not be stressing the ladder as
much as if used by the official guidance.Like if you used one to
support a vertical load (like an Acrow prop) that may be far less
stress than your horizontal test.


You can't beat a good strong ladder.

Till you want to get it *in* the back of your hire van or in a lift?
;-(


Like I said, I have two telescopic ladder for restricted access situations.


Sorry, missed / forgot that. What lengths / makes are they OOI Bill?

It wants
to feel like you're climbing a staircase.

Oh, sure, but what if you don't have the storage options for a 'real'
ladder ... or enough of a predictable need but still have a
(especially domestic) need?


Surely you can find somewhere for a triple that extends to six metres?


Well, I do have an ally triple in the garden, only partially covered
and hasn't been used for years but the problem with it in use is how
much you lose on the overlap per section. And because I don't believe
it's long enough, I was thinking of replacing it with a telescopic
that I could store inside somewhere that was.

You can stand such a thing up in the corner of a room, and a domestic
quality one would be fine for you, and they don't weigh much, and you
can remove one section and it gives you a really useful double, and
there's no hidden 'works' and catches that can fail.


No room indoors to do such a thing and the workshop roof is full of
boat and steel stock etc.

That said, the workshop is ~240mm at the eaves so if I kept it inside
vertically, I might be able to get one of these in:


https://www.screwfix.com/p/werner-3-...ers-5-7m/133fv


Could (and this is back to the $100 question) a 'good' 5m telescopic
ladder give me useable access to a gutter 5m off the ground?


No because you need a ladder that extends well above the work height,


I think that depends on what sort of 'work' we are talking about Bill,
along with the frequency and duration of that work.

Eg, Say the ladder only reaches just under the gutter and I use a
standoff to bring it out level. According to the guidance I shouldn't
go higher than the top of the ladder past my belly button and so with
the case stated above, some of my upper body would be above the gutter
line. All I would need to remove the odd but of moss and part of a
slipped slate is my eyes and one arm?

snip

I claim no particular expertise, but I do know that having done it both ways I
feel a lot safer when doing the whole gutter using a ladder stay with the
ladder extending two or three feet above the gutter. And if you have a long
enough ladder quick jobs like you mention can be done just resting the ladder
on the gutter without bothering with the ladder stay.


--
Roger Hayter




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On 22/11/2020 11:19, No Name wrote:


The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the
ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully
extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.


I've found that I've had to use another ladder (or step ladder) to gain
more height to push the extending part up a few more rungs.


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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:23:43 +0000, No Name
wrote:
snip

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its
at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot
on it....


I have a digital inclinometer I bought when I was building the 3D
printer that I was considering using for the same thing. ;-)

I have a good idea what angle 'looks right' but it's nice to get a
second (unbiased) opinion. ;-)

Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:19:07 +0000, No Name
wrote:


I have a 3 section ladder too myself that is 4.25 m when closed


That would nearly be long enough for my needs in one section. ;-)

and
10.63 m when fully extended.


Whoa, that sounds pretty long. Fireman? ;-)

Now you are supposed to have a minimum of 4 rungs of overlap between
each section, so far so good....

But when my hieght is 1.83 and with extended arms adding another 0.8m
giving a maximum reach from the ground to push each section of ladder up
by 2.3 m.


And that's still not always easy, especially on the second section.

So if one extends each section when resting up against the wall, thats a
max of 4.25 m + 2.3 m + 2.3 m = 8.85 m.... which is almost 2 m of 10.63
m fully extended.


That raises an interesting point .... of is there a sweet spot re
ladder length that 'most people' (likely to be doing such things)
could realistically handle?

As you say, 2.3m plus the 4 rungs worth you lose?

The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the
ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully
extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.


Or even with help if you aren't reasonably strong (or there is a
breeze blowing)? ;-)

Some ladders do have a pulley system but they do not seem all that common?


No, I was thinking that and how much easier it should make it. I say
'should' because like all things I'm guessing there would be some
compromises ... like, do the pulleys act in the middle of the ladder
or do you have one each side (to keep it extending straight)? Do they
latch in a different way?

Cheers, T i m

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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:05:53 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 10:42, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:43:24 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 21:54, T i m wrote:

Could (and this is back to the $100 question) a 'good' 5m telescopic
ladder give me useable access to a gutter 5m off the ground?


No, you need a ladder longer than 5m to reach 5m unless you intend to
rig your ladders in the same way as Fred Dibnah.


Yes, I know, but that wasn't really the question.


I read the question as would a 5m ladder give me USEABLE access to a
gutter 5m off the ground?


I know.

What do you believe the question to be and
what answer would you expect?


The focus was on 'good' (as in expectation of the range of makes /
models of telescopic ladders out there) and could any do the job at
*around* 5m. The 5m wasn't specifically a focus there, just an
approximation of the sorts of heights I was talking about.

eg, I think many here know that the 3.x m telescopic ladders are very
useable and because they are fairly common, are likely to have good
price / build competition.

Consider how much longer the ladder has to be if the angled away from
the wall. At 75 degrees you would need a 5.6m ladder (and using a
stand-off doesn't change this)


Yes, I got (and appreciated) that, but see above. I was looking for a
more general reply about the practicality of a telescopic ladder to be
used at around those heights.


According to the official guidance I linked to previously, it
suggested you shouldn't work above the top of the ladder than past
your belly button. So, if I had a standoff and the ladder was directly
below (not underhung) I wouldn't need to go any higher than needed to
be able to see into the gutter and I could then reach what I could see
(whilst keeping my body directly over the ladder).


You have obviously not tried to clear a gutter with a ladder that only
just reaches the gutter (with or without a stand-off).


Well I have, but only on a bungalow. The principal would be the same,
irrespective of the heights involved.

You would find
with your belly button at the top of the ladder you have nothing to hold
on to with your "spare" hand except the gutter,


Other than the top of the ladder you mean?

which unlike those
portrayed in comedy films it will not support your weight if you are
considering it as your backup safety measure.


;-)

But having read all the official advice and ignored all the practical
advice I'm sure that you now have a cast iron guarantee that your
preferred solution is safe.


Nope, just (still) bouncing ideas off those here who have experience
of telescopic (specifically) ladders mate.

Just make sure that someone or something is footing the ladder.


Check.

I'm not
a regular user of a ladder but when working alone I have two 25Kg bags
of sand or shingle at the foot of the ladder to help prevent movement.


Yup. I've done similar (along with it being footed most the time) or
arranged some form of stop with slabs or timber up against an
immovable object.

I
have 3 ladders, a 3.X metre telescopic, a light weight aluminium 2
section that extends to around 7m and a very heavy aluminium 2 stage
that extend to around 1m above my gutter height.


Ok.

Whilst the latter is a
complete PITA to erect (it is heavy) it is the only one that I would
consider using for clearing the gutters in my 1905 property.


Understood.

Even for indoor use my preference over the telescopic ladder is an
aluminium step ladder that converts into an "up to" 3m conventional ladder.


Gotcha. Thanks for the feedback. ;-)

Cheers, T i m
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On 22 Nov 2020 12:13:16 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

snip

I claim no particular expertise, but I do know that having done it both ways I
feel a lot safer when doing the whole gutter using a ladder stay with the
ladder extending two or three feet above the gutter.


Understood, and would be my preference, assuming it was an option
within all the other variables / compromises.

And if you have a long
enough ladder quick jobs like you mention can be done just resting the ladder
on the gutter without bothering with the ladder stay.


Yeah, I've often seen roofers doing that (when doing a quick repair
job specifically) but it always worries me (that the gutter will
break, but they haven't yet).

If I was using a long telescopic I think I would like to use a stay,
just to help make the top more stable against twisting?

Cheers, T i m





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On 22/11/2020 12:13, alan_m wrote:
On 22/11/2020 11:23, No Name wrote:

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm
its at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set
foot on it....


With a long ladder its also worth standing well back from it to ensure
that standing vertically up the wall. When putting up a ladder it's
looked vertical from the base of the ladder but when standing back and
looking at it from a distance I've often found that it may have a lean
to the side by 0.5m at the top.



agreed but i also use the inclinometer on the ladder stiles to check it
is absolutely vertical.....
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On 22/11/2020 10:24, T i m wrote:

There is some
genuine philanthropy in business I grant you, but there is far more
virtue signaling, publicity gaining, tax avoidance,


Yes, I'm sure there is some of that.

and green-washing.


Lots of green washing. Total hypocrisy.


So can we at least agree that millions of people around the world are
dying from pollution that weren't say 200 years ago?


Pollution is collateral damage from modern science, technology, and
industry. These have done massively more for the good of humanity than
pollution has done harm. By your logic lifespans should have reduced
because of pollution but in fact they have tripled thanks to modern
science, technology, and industry.


Can we agree that people living *with* nature are likely to have a
lower carbon footprint (and the demonstrable results stated above)
than say you?



Carbon footprint is irrelevant to the well-being of humanity because it
has very little bearing on atmospheric temperatures and that doesn't
matter anyway, because thanks to modern science, technology, and
industry we can adapt.


If you can concede such things then I would be interested to hear what
you think we should do (if anything) to try to combat a further
escalation?


Of global temperatures? Instead of wasting money on ridiculous schemes
like windmills and battery cars, and causing fuel poverty and a general
reduction in standards of living, use the money to fix anything that
happens as a result of natural temperature changes.



And I did
freebies for hospices and dogs' homes.



That wasn't just virtue signaling and publicity gaining then?


Since no-one knew about it, no.

Bill
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On 22/11/2020 10:34, T i m wrote:

Never mind the theory. Any ladder that you plan to use, place it fully
extended horizontally on the ground, supported only at the ends by saw
horses or piles of beer crates or whatever. Climb onto the midpoint
carrying any likely load.


Hmmmm. So a 5m 3 piece ladder could fail that tests where the same
design in 3m might not? What if all 5m ladders failed (such an
unreasonable test for the intended design / use [1]) what would you do
then?


It isn't an unreasonable test. It probably exceeds the in-use
requirement by a factor of four, but that's a normal engineering margin.
Think about bridges and lift cables.


If it takes that it's OK. That was my periodic
test of ladders for all my years of using them.

Whilst that makes sense from your POV and whilst being willing to
accept the limitations of conventional ladders, it's no more valid for
my intended usage than seeing how easy it is to carry a piano in a
sports car.


So why do you value your life so cheaply? Why are you prepared to take
avoidable risks?

I don't know you bothered asking about this because you'd already made
your mind up. When wiser councel challenges your ignorance-based
preconceptions you just became pig-headed. Well, I've led the horse to
water; it won't drink, so it can bloody well die of dehydration or
alternatively fall off a crap ladder.

Bill

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On 22/11/2020 11:22, T i m wrote:
No because you need a ladder that extends well above the work height,

I think that depends on what sort of 'work' we are talking about Bill,
along with the frequency and duration of that work.


Frequency and duration are irrelevant to safety. One daft move and
you're dead.

Bill
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On 22/11/2020 12:55, T i m wrote:
Yeah, I've often seen roofers doing that (when doing a quick repair
job specifically) but it always worries me (that the gutter will
break, but they haven't yet).


If you have to rest a ladder on plastic guttering for some reason, put a
narrow plank inside the guttering, spanning its internal width, to
spread the load.

Bill


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On 22/11/2020 11:23, No Name wrote:

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its
at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot
on it....


Well don't. That's dangerous. The safe angle depends on the ground, the
landing place at the top and whether it can be secured, the type of
ladder, the load, and the weather conditions. There's no way 65 or 70
degrees -- or any other angle -- can be right for every situation.

Bill
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On 22/11/2020 12:13, alan_m wrote:
With a long ladder its also worth standing well back from it to ensure
that standing vertically up the wall. When putting up a ladder it's
looked vertical from the base of the ladder but when standing back and
looking at it from a distance I've often found that it may have a lean
to the side by 0.5m at the top.


Yes this is very important. Sideways slipping is a major cause of ladder
accidents.

The footing should be firm generally, and of course level. Ladder wedges
are essential to compensate for variations in ground level between the
stiles. This can be surprisingly significant even on apparently level
concrete (for instance). I have always kept a box of 'ladder wedges'
handy. These are not wedge shaped (that's dangerous!); they are flat
pieces of ply or timber of various thickness. There are also commercial
products, mats, that do this job.

Needless to say the ground and wedges should have high friction
surfaces. If in doubt consider roping the foot of the ladder, if there's
anything to rope it to. If there isn't don't do the job.

There's no point in having someone 'foot' a ladder. They couldn't save
you, no chance, and if you feel you need them then the ladder is not
safe in some way. Also it's dangerous in case you drop anything. No-one
should go near a ladder that's got someone up it.

It's worth holding a small spirit level against the stile to check that
the ladder isn't leaning one way or the other.

However, if the top landing of the ladder is immediately adjacent to a
return in the wall or other feature that would absolutely prevent it
falling that way, it's good to lean it very slightly that way.

Bill
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On 22/11/2020 11:22, No Name wrote:

I have have a proper pair of Dr Marten style Thick chunky soled boots to
avoid getting cramp or pain in feet when stood on a rung for a period of
time.


Yes that can be a real problem. My feet get very hot in such footwear
but if I wear sandals or pumps I get terrible pain in the soles of my
feet. It's a real pain in the R sole.

Bill
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On 22/11/2020 11:19, No Name wrote:

I have a 3 section ladder too myself that is 4.25 m when closed and
10.63 m when fully extended.

Now you are supposed to have a minimum of 4 rungs of overlap between
each section, so far so good....

But when my hieght is 1.83 and with extended arms adding another 0.8m
giving a maximum reach from the ground to push each section of ladder up
by 2.3 m.

So if one extends each section when resting up against the wall, thats a
max of 4.25 m + 2.3 m + 2.3 m = 8.85 m.... which is almost 2 m of 10.63
m fully extended.

The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the
ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully
extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.

Some ladders do have a pulley system but they do not seem all that common?


This is a real problem with big triples. You do have to climb the ladder
to extend it! The best way is to extend the top section first, with the
ladder at a steeper angle than for normal use. Extend the top section as
far as it will go. Then with a bit of luck you can stand on the ground
and push the middle section up far enough. If it isn't far enough then
you have to climb the bloody thing to push it up. It ain't good. I had a
very heavy duty four storey triple at one time. The ******* thing nearly
finished me off. I got shut of it finally. No-one should be doing ladder
work at that sort of height anyway. It needs to be a platform or a
machine, or **** it, forget that job, find another one. About 1990 I
started to say, 'pay for access equipment or get some other silly bugger
to do it.'

The heavier triples really do have to have ropes and pulleys, and two men.

Bill
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:21:37 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 10:24, T i m wrote:

There is some
genuine philanthropy in business I grant you, but there is far more
virtue signaling, publicity gaining, tax avoidance,


Yes, I'm sure there is some of that.

and green-washing.


Lots of green washing. Total hypocrisy.


Yet there are loads of people / 'experts' who think otherwise.


So can we at least agree that millions of people around the world are
dying from pollution that weren't say 200 years ago?


Pollution is collateral damage from modern science, technology, and
industry.


Agreed (with hindsight).

These have done massively more for the good of humanity than
pollution has done harm.


I think time will confirm if that's true or not.

By your logic lifespans should have reduced
because of pollution but in fact they have tripled thanks to modern
science, technology, and industry.


You are conflating several aspects Bill. Yes, science and technology
is allowing us to live longer but mostly against things that were
killing us prematurely (silicosis from mining, generally H&S at work,
poor diet etc) along with medical science fixing us when we might
otherwise have died of both natural and *man made* ailments.


Can we agree that people living *with* nature are likely to have a
lower carbon footprint (and the demonstrable results stated above)
than say you?



Carbon footprint is irrelevant to the well-being of humanity because it
has very little bearing on atmospheric temperatures and that doesn't
matter anyway, because thanks to modern science, technology, and
industry we can adapt.


Not according to many (and so you 'hope').


If you can concede such things then I would be interested to hear what
you think we should do (if anything) to try to combat a further
escalation?


Of global temperatures?


Well, pollution that in some aspects can case global warming yes.

Instead of wasting money on ridiculous schemes
like windmills and battery cars, and causing fuel poverty and a general
reduction in standards of living, use the money to fix anything that
happens as a result of natural temperature changes.


But where is the replacement fuel coming from and now I think it's you
who are fact washing. Your solution is to cause the damage and then
try and fix it whereas now we know what we are doing (harm-wise) we
can choose (or work towards) not causing the damage (or further
damage) in the first place.

https://ibb.co/6HdNjMj

And I did
freebies for hospices and dogs' homes.


That wasn't just virtue signaling and publicity gaining then?


Since no-one knew about it, no.


So the work wasn't noticeable? Are you sure you actually did it? ;-)



Cheers, T i m


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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:17:25 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 11:19, No Name wrote:


The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the
ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully
extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.


I've found that I've had to use another ladder (or step ladder) to gain
more height to push the extending part up a few more rungs.


Whilst out the back earlier I measured my existing 3 piece ally ladder
and it's 2.5m long.

Looking online, it suggest that a similar 2.5m ladder returns:

"This 3 section ladder extends to 5.70m to enable a safe working
height of 6.31m*.

(Safe working height based on 1.75m as the average reach height of a
person)."

So that seems to support my idea of being able to work above the top
of the ladder?

So with a stand off at the top and assuming my existing ladder hasn't
suffered from being (partly) out in the elements for the last ~25
years, I might be able to get away with what I have?

Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:31:05 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 10:34, T i m wrote:

Never mind the theory. Any ladder that you plan to use, place it fully
extended horizontally on the ground, supported only at the ends by saw
horses or piles of beer crates or whatever. Climb onto the midpoint
carrying any likely load.


Hmmmm. So a 5m 3 piece ladder could fail that tests where the same
design in 3m might not? What if all 5m ladders failed (such an
unreasonable test for the intended design / use [1]) what would you do
then?


It isn't an unreasonable test.


It is. The specification for most ladders state that it's safe to use
up to (say) 150kg *vertical load*. There is no mention of them
(traditional ladders) being used in any other way (and would be
specifically excluded in the user manual and any certificate of
testing and conformity).

It probably exceeds the in-use
requirement by a factor of four, but that's a normal engineering margin.


That may well be the case but not the point / issue.

Think about bridges and lift cables.


Don't need to, I'm sticking to what we are talking about, ladders. ;-)


If it takes that it's OK. That was my periodic
test of ladders for all my years of using them.

Whilst that makes sense from your POV and whilst being willing to
accept the limitations of conventional ladders, it's no more valid for
my intended usage than seeing how easy it is to carry a piano in a
sports car.


So why do you value your life so cheaply?


Why would I be doing that?

Why are you prepared to take
avoidable risks?


Where am I doing that?

I don't know you bothered asking about this because you'd already made
your mind up.


No, again you are confused because I simply haven't rolled over and
done *exactly* what you said. Unfortunately this is typical of a left
brainer so I'm used to it. ;-)

When wiser councel challenges your ignorance-based
preconceptions you just became pig-headed.


Oooh, and there's another perfect example! ;-)

Well, I've led the horse to
water; it won't drink,


Ah, so you care about dogs and hoses (so far), just not cows, pigs,
lamb and chickens?

so it can bloody well die of dehydration


Yup, no seeing if they might like some water from somewhere else that
might be better for them?

or
alternatively fall off a crap ladder.


And another. Classic. Like I do what you say or 'else', suffer the
negative consequences?

See, what you are ignoring are the very points that are of interest to
me, simply because in your world they aren't of interest to you, so
you throw your toys out of the pram because I don't just tug my
forelock to your 'superior knowledge.

Unfortunately, what you have demonstrated in your replies so far is a
complete discounting of the requirements I highlighted (easy storage)
and ignored the fact that this isn't something I'm suggesting I make
at home, but buy from a respected supplier with a good reputation and
something that has been given positive feedback by all those who have
bought same. Bought them for *their* reasons not yours?

So, I've measured the 3 section ladder I have here and it's 2.5m long
(closed) so would stand up in the workshop. However, I'd rather not
waste space there so it can carry on living in the back garden and
probably, carry on being unused because it's too big to use indoors
and too short to cover all roles (I need) on the outside of the house?

So maybe I'll give that one to some boaters to use as gangplanks and
buy a longer 3 section to leave outside?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I just happened to mention to daughter earlier my quest for
thoughts on a telescopic ladder and it turns out they have one in the
back of the van the she uses all the time for accessing and expecting
children's play equipment (slides and swings etc) in the local parks.
She says it's fine (and may use it multiple times every inspection
day), albeit 'probably' not 5m long.
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:38:45 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 12:55, T i m wrote:
Yeah, I've often seen roofers doing that (when doing a quick repair
job specifically) but it always worries me (that the gutter will
break, but they haven't yet).


If you have to rest a ladder on plastic guttering for some reason, put a
narrow plank inside the guttering, spanning its internal width, to
spread the load.


Good tip, thanks (once you have got up there without). ;-)

Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:36:37 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 11:22, T i m wrote:
No because you need a ladder that extends well above the work height,

I think that depends on what sort of 'work' we are talking about Bill,
along with the frequency and duration of that work.


Frequency and duration are irrelevant to safety.


Of course they are, if we are talking about the serviceability and
suitability of hardware.

One daft move and
you're dead.


That only applies to telescopic ladders for some reason Bill?

Cheers, T i m


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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:04:27 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

snip

There's no point in having someone 'foot' a ladder.


Really?

They couldn't save
you, no chance,


'Save' is past tense in that case, they aren't there to save anything,
they are there to *prevent* something (that physics will confirm they
do (look up 'static friction')).

and if you feel you need them then the ladder is not
safe in some way.


See above.

Also it's dangerous in case you drop anything.


Not if you drop anything, just the dangerous things to people from
that sort of height. Like, a handful of moss is unlikely to kill or
even hurt anyone. ;-)

No-one
should go near a ladder that's got someone up it.


No, I agree it might be a last resort having someone foot a ladder for
you, but again very dependant on the circumstances. The Mrs would be
more than willing / happy to foot a ladder for me while I was using it
to say clear some moss from a gutter and I would be happy she was
there doing so.

However, I would still rather place some concrete slabs behind the
ladder and wedged up against something or a length of timber pinned or
weighted down. We are only talking of *preventing* the foot of the
ladder slipping out, should something happen to make it want to try.

snip

Cheers, T i m


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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:45:47 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 11:23, No Name wrote:

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its
at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot
on it....


Well don't. That's dangerous. The safe angle depends on the ground, the
landing place at the top and whether it can be secured, the type of
ladder, the load, and the weather conditions. There's no way 65 or 70
degrees -- or any other angle -- can be right for every situation.

But what if all those variables had already been catered for Bill,
wouldn't then someone just 'checking' the angle (if they didn't have
your vast experience etc) be a 'good thing'?

Cheers, T i m


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williamwright wrote:
On 22/11/2020 11:23, No Name wrote:

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm
its at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set
foot on it....


Well don't. That's dangerous. The safe angle depends on the ground, the
landing place at the top and whether it can be secured, the type of
ladder, the load, and the weather conditions. There's no way 65 or 70
degrees -- or any other angle -- can be right for every situation.

Bill


In a Google, you can find plenty of admonitions like this.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_...tion_Sheet.pdf

"The correct angle for a ladder is 75 degrees
or the 1 in 4 rule. (see figure 6)"

*******

"An Engineering Psychology Based Analysis of Ladder Setup Procedures"

https://tigerprints.clemson.edu/cgi/...ext=all_theses

"Based on known ladder setup angles and coefficients of friction, a detailed
engineering analysis was performed to determine the total number of slide-out
failures for each ladder setup method."

"Hypothetically, if an extension ladder is set up at the recommended angle of 75 degrees
on a clean, level surface such as concrete, asphalt, brick, or wood, the factor of safety
against slide-out at the base is approximately 2.9 to 3.4 based on static loading; however,
the factor of safety typically decreases during dynamic loading as one climbs (Chang,
Chang, Matz, and Son, 2004). The factor of safety is a dimensionless number and
indicates the actual reaction forces at the base of the ladder are 2.9 to 3.4 times greater
than the point at which the ladder may begin to slide. If the ladder is set up in a manner
that has a factor of safety less than 1.0 at the base, the ladder will experience a slide-out
failure. If the setup angle is reduced to 65 degrees the factor of safety decreases to a
marginally safe range of 1.6 to 1.9 for static loading. Typical detrimental factors include
selecting a setup angle that is too shallow (less than 75 degrees), setting ladders up on
minor slopes, surfaces contaminated with moisture, or dynamic loading. Dynamic load
conditions will occur with moving loads such as one ascending or descending the ladder.
Minor changes to any of these factors can have negative effects on stability and safety."

When you work with ladders, you can "feel" these factors as you work.
At least you can with aluminium ladders, as they're "alive enough",
they tell you how they're feeling. It's the heavy wooden ladders
that are rather sullen, and they're likely to let go without
telling you they're not happy.

It's not a matter of getting out a slide rule and working up some numbers.

I spent a summer painting house off an aluminium extension ladder,
and that's where the experience comes from. No close calls while
painting at least. We worked windy days and calm days.

And I'm hearing about this 1 in 4 rule for the first time
today. I received no crash course on ladders at work :-)
It was just expected that you knew how to put up a ladder.

Paul
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T i m wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:17:25 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 11:19, No Name wrote:


The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the
ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully
extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.

I've found that I've had to use another ladder (or step ladder) to gain
more height to push the extending part up a few more rungs.


Whilst out the back earlier I measured my existing 3 piece ally ladder
and it's 2.5m long.

Looking online, it suggest that a similar 2.5m ladder returns:

"This 3 section ladder extends to 5.70m to enable a safe working
height of 6.31m*.

(Safe working height based on 1.75m as the average reach height of a
person)."

So that seems to support my idea of being able to work above the top
of the ladder?

So with a stand off at the top and assuming my existing ladder hasn't
suffered from being (partly) out in the elements for the last ~25
years, I might be able to get away with what I have?

Cheers, T i m


https://thediyhelpdesk.com/how-to-st...the-right-way/

"How long do aluminium ladders last?

Aluminum ladders can last indefinitely, they do not have an expiry date
and as long as you look after them and treat them well, they should
last for decades.

Because of the properties of aluminum, these ladders will survive working
and being stored outside.

However, Aluminum can crack or deform if subject to an impact, and aluminum
ladders with damage can be unsafe and should be replaced.

So if you drop something heavy like a hammer or knock an Aluminium ladder
against something hard it may need to be checked and possibly replaced.

It is also better to buy a new ladder then try to repair one as the repair
could become a weak point and fail again in the future.

I also recommend buying ladders new rather than second hand, as you may
never know if a ladder has been dropped or damaged and I would rather
pay a little bit extra for a warranty and to know that it is safe.
"

Even with a visual examination of "all the bits that count",
I don't know if my weather eye is good enough to offer guarantees.
I'm the guy who climbed onto a wooden ladder that had been outside
a bit too long - I examined it, and declared it "kindy iffy",
but used it anyway, and ended up breaking rungs on it.
That's, uh, not a good way to examine ladders :-/
By breaking them.

You would think they would make air bags, for people who
work on old ladders.

Paul
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Default Long telescopic ladders?

On 22/11/2020 20:11, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:45:47 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 22/11/2020 11:23, No Name wrote:

I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its
at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot
on it....


Well don't. That's dangerous. The safe angle depends on the ground, the
landing place at the top and whether it can be secured, the type of
ladder, the load, and the weather conditions. There's no way 65 or 70
degrees -- or any other angle -- can be right for every situation.

Bill, The 3 section ladder I have is a Hailo, and there are stickers on
both stiles that explicitly state that the ladder should be at 65 to 70
degree angle to the ground so to me thats clearly a manufacturer's
stated instruction.

I did on one occasion have need to paint a dormer window. The roof is at
45 degree incline. No matter how I tried, I could not acces sthe dormer
window directly with a ladder from the ground at 65 to 70 degrees (there
was a garage beneath the dormer bedroom)

I do have a scaffold access tower but again I could not access the
dormer window from this either.

What I ended up doing was extending the 3 section ladder such that it
was at the same angle as the dormer roof at 45 degrees, I laid this on
the roof tiles directly beneath the dormer window down to the driveway.

I happened to have 10 bags of coal of 25 kilos each so put all ten at
the bottom of the ladder (so two and a half times the weight of an
average person) and also used my ladder stablisher at the midpoint
between ground and when it met the garage's guttering.

(very similar to this:
https://www.ladders-999.co.uk/media/...er_legs_10.jpg
but mine has a cross bar at teh bottom so the legs cannot move further
apart to each other)

S.

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On 23/11/2020 09:18, No Name wrote:
Well don't. That's dangerous. The safe angle depends on the ground, the
landing place at the top and whether it can be secured, the type of
ladder, the load, and the weather conditions. There's no way 65 or 70
degrees -- or any other angle -- can be right for every situation.

Bill, The 3 section ladder I have is a Hailo, and there are stickers on
both stiles that explicitly state that the ladder should be at 65 to 70
degree angle to the ground so to me thats clearly a manufacturer's
stated instruction.


It's still wrong. But what do I know, after using ladders all day and
every day for 45 years?

Bill


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Default Long telescopic ladders?

Owain Lastname wrote:

if I wear sandals [...] I get terrible pain in the soles of my
feet.


My feet aren't keen on sandals, unless they have plenty of straps. I
try to grip like a budgie on a pole.
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On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 9:52:31 AM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Owain Lastname wrote:

if I wear sandals [...] I get terrible pain in the soles of my
feet.


My feet aren't keen on sandals, unless they have plenty of straps. I
try to grip like a budgie on a pole.


I try to get workbook/shoes that have a penetration resistant mid-sole mainly steel but can be composites, I find these are the most comfortable when working on a ladder. I feel the midsoles tend to spread loading across more of your foot.

Richard
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On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 10:18:02 AM UTC+1, Tricky Dicky wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 9:52:31 AM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Owain Lastname wrote:

if I wear sandals [...] I get terrible pain in the soles of my
feet.


My feet aren't keen on sandals, unless they have plenty of straps. I
try to grip like a budgie on a pole.

I try to get workbook/shoes that have a penetration resistant mid-sole mainly steel but can be composites, I find these are the most comfortable when working on a ladder. I feel the midsoles tend to spread loading across more of your foot.

Richard


That is workboot, bloody spell checker.
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On 24/04/2021 10:17, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I try to get workbook/shoes that have a penetration resistant mid-sole mainly steel but can be composites, I find these are the most comfortable when working on a ladder. I feel the midsoles tend to spread loading across more of your foot.


+1
Penetration resistant mid-sole is comfortable on a ladder especially if
standing on a rung for any length of time.


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