Hi All,

I know of 3 houses which have recently had additions to their Electrics...€¦..

In the case of our house our thoroughly useless and I suspect unqualified "sparky" insisted that the MCB for the lighting circuit he had extended must be put on the RCD side of the CU before he could sign off the jb and give us a certificate (he then failed to buy the necessary busbar to do this (I got my own electrician to swap all the lighting MCBs for RCBOs) and eventually got the certificate (The BCO said the only bit he was bothered about was the extractor fan in the bathroom).

My Brother's girlfriend had an outside security light fitted and the sparky said he couldn't do it unless she got a new CU and specified one (but the quote didn't detail whether it had a number or RCDs or RCBOs or what (I presume it must have had one or t'other).

My Brother then had a new kitchen and the suppliers insisted on fitting a new circuit or two (I assume they uprated the cooker circuit). He has also recently had a couple of outside lights replaced.

I was rather disappointed* to find that he still has his original CU (All MCBs and I can't spot even 1 RCD in the house).

I know that there is no (or was) no requirement for an older house to meet current regs (I suppose I may have just answered my own question there).

But it would it be the case that when professionals are involved, at least the circuits they work on / install should be RCD / RCBO protected.

*This is a man who believes that 3 way 13A block type adapters are dangerous and must never be used and wouldn't believe me that running a 4 way off a way was ok if the second only had a BT Home Hub, a Hive box and a DECT phone hanging off it. And has spent a fortune on windows, doors, a porch, a kitchen, etc, etc but won't update the CU unless he's held at gunpoint!

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?

On 20/10/2020 12:07, Chris Holmes wrote:
Hi All,

I know of 3 houses which have recently had additions to their
Electrics...€¦..

In the case of our house our thoroughly useless and I suspect
unqualified "sparky" insisted that the MCB for the lighting circuit
he had extended must be put on the RCD side of the CU before he could
sign off the jb and give us a certificate (he then failed to buy the
necessary busbar to do this (I got my own electrician to swap all the
lighting MCBs for RCBOs) and eventually got the certificate (The BCO
said the only bit he was bothered about was the extractor fan in the
bathroom).

My Brother's girlfriend had an outside security light fitted and the
sparky said he couldn't do it unless she got a new CU and specified
one (but the quote didn't detail whether it had a number or RCDs or
RCBOs or what (I presume it must have had one or t'other).

My Brother then had a new kitchen and the suppliers insisted on
fitting a new circuit or two (I assume they uprated the cooker
circuit). He has also recently had a couple of outside lights
replaced.

I was rather disappointed* to find that he still has his original CU
(All MCBs and I can't spot even 1 RCD in the house).

I know that there is no (or was) no requirement for an older house to
meet current regs (I suppose I may have just answered my own question
there).

But it would it be the case that when professionals are involved, at
least the circuits they work on / install should be RCD / RCBO
protected.

*This is a man who believes that 3 way 13A block type adapters are
dangerous and must never be used and wouldn't believe me that running
a 4 way off a way was ok if the second only had a BT Home Hub, a Hive
box and a DECT phone hanging off it. And has spent a fortune on
windows, doors, a porch, a kitchen, etc, etc but won't update the CU
unless he's held at gunpoint!

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?

While it is true that there is no requirement to bring properties that
are inline with previous versions of the regs up to modern spec, one
does have to do all new work to the regs in force at the time.

So for example, if adding a socket to a non RCD protected circuit, you
would need to either provide RCD protection for just that socket, or
retrofit it for the whole circuit. There would obviously be safety
benefits to the latter approach in some cases.

With the 18th edition RCDs are pretty much unavoidable on most circuits,
since all sockets now need them, and the cable protection requirements
mop up most of the others. Moving forward, all RCBO installs are the
sensible way forward for all but the most budget installs IMHO.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 12:08:02 PM UTC+1, Chris Holmes wrote:
Hi All,

I know of 3 houses which have recently had additions to their Electrics....€¦..

In the case of our house our thoroughly useless and I suspect unqualified "sparky" insisted that the MCB for the lighting circuit he had extended must be put on the RCD side of the CU before he could sign off the jb and give us a certificate (he then failed to buy the necessary busbar to do this (I got my own electrician to swap all the lighting MCBs for RCBOs) and eventually got the certificate (The BCO said the only bit he was bothered about was the extractor fan in the bathroom).

My Brother's girlfriend had an outside security light fitted and the sparky said he couldn't do it unless she got a new CU and specified one (but the quote didn't detail whether it had a number or RCDs or RCBOs or what (I presume it must have had one or t'other).

My Brother then had a new kitchen and the suppliers insisted on fitting a new circuit or two (I assume they uprated the cooker circuit). He has also recently had a couple of outside lights replaced.

I was rather disappointed* to find that he still has his original CU (All MCBs and I can't spot even 1 RCD in the house).

I know that there is no (or was) no requirement for an older house to meet current regs (I suppose I may have just answered my own question there).

But it would it be the case that when professionals are involved, at least the circuits they work on / install should be RCD / RCBO protected.

*This is a man who believes that 3 way 13A block type adapters are dangerous and must never be used and wouldn't believe me that running a 4 way off a way was ok if the second only had a BT Home Hub, a Hive box and a DECT phone hanging off it. And has spent a fortune on windows, doors, a porch, a kitchen, etc, etc but won't update the CU unless he's held at gunpoint!

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?
When I bought this house it had fuse wires in a wooden box and ancient rubbery wiring.
My first move was to get an electrician to fit 3 beefy radials with a socket at the ends for electric heaters etc in the most used rooms.
They added a new consumer unit and a new earth spike, presumably they wanted nothing to do with the old wiring.
[george]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 12:43:03 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
[snip]

With the 18th edition RCDs are pretty much unavoidable on most circuits,
since all sockets now need them, and the cable protection requirements
mop up most of the others. Moving forward, all RCBO installs are the
sensible way forward for all but the most budget installs IMHO.

A few years ago I asked an electrician to fit the full set of RCBOs.
He said this would be far too expensive and unnecessary. I asked him
to get me a price and he came back and said it cost less than he had
expected. I told him to go ahead, which he did. He ultimately
conceded this was the 'way to go'.

On 20/10/2020 12:07, Chris Holmes wrote:
Hi All,

I know of 3 houses which have recently had additions to their Electrics...€¦..

In the case of our house our thoroughly useless and I suspect unqualified "sparky" insisted that the MCB for the lighting circuit he had extended must be put on the RCD side of the CU before he could sign off the jb and give us a certificate (he then failed to buy the necessary busbar to do this (I got my own electrician to swap all the lighting MCBs for RCBOs) and eventually got the certificate (The BCO said the only bit he was bothered about was the extractor fan in the bathroom).

My Brother's girlfriend had an outside security light fitted and the sparky said he couldn't do it unless she got a new CU and specified one (but the quote didn't detail whether it had a number or RCDs or RCBOs or what (I presume it must have had one or t'other).

My Brother then had a new kitchen and the suppliers insisted on fitting a new circuit or two (I assume they uprated the cooker circuit). He has also recently had a couple of outside lights replaced.

I was rather disappointed* to find that he still has his original CU (All MCBs and I can't spot even 1 RCD in the house).

I know that there is no (or was) no requirement for an older house to meet current regs (I suppose I may have just answered my own question there).

But it would it be the case that when professionals are involved, at least the circuits they work on / install should be RCD / RCBO protected.

*This is a man who believes that 3 way 13A block type adapters are dangerous and must never be used and wouldn't believe me that running a 4 way off a way was ok if the second only had a BT Home Hub, a Hive box and a DECT phone hanging off it. And has spent a fortune on windows, doors, a porch, a kitchen, etc, etc but won't update the CU unless he's held at gunpoint!

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?



All of them if done to the latest rules. Although the outside light at
your sisters could in theory be fed from a RCD fused spur.

--
Adam

On 20/10/2020 12:49, George Miles wrote:

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?
When I bought this house it had fuse wires in a wooden box and ancient rubbery wiring.
My first move was to get an electrician to fit 3 beefy radials with a socket at the ends for electric heaters etc in the most used rooms.
They added a new consumer unit and a new earth spike, presumably they wanted nothing to do with the old wiring.
[george]

Luxury!

My first house (early 70's) had cotton/rubber insulated single
conductors in two-channel wooden "conduit". And the small bore lead
pipes for the original gas lights were still "live", as I discovered
early on in my rewiring. Then while hunting for a gas shut-off valve at
the bottom of a mud-filled gas stop-cock access outside the front door I
managed to snap off what turned out to be the cock for draining water
from the gas supply main. (The gas board were very helpful and
understanding).

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 18:05:33 +0100, ARW wrote:

All of them if done to the latest rules. Although the outside light at
your sisters could in theory be fed from a RCD fused spur.

There have been debates about this on the IET site since the 18th came
in. The opinion is that RCD fused spares are now not allowed,on their
own, as BS7288 says they need additional protection before the device.
In real life terms, a fused spur would be fine, but the Committee doesnt
seem to think it is enough, but havent explained their reasoning.
I've not looked into it recently, 2 links here from last year going into
more detail.

https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24578?
post_id=122762#p122762

https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24702?
post_id=124430#p124430

newshound wrote:
On 20/10/2020 12:49, George Miles wrote:

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?
When I bought this house it had fuse wires in a wooden box and ancient rubbery wiring.
My first move was to get an electrician to fit 3 beefy radials with a
socket at the ends for electric heaters etc in the most used rooms.
They added a new consumer unit and a new earth spike, presumably they
wanted nothing to do with the old wiring.
[george]

Luxury!

My first house (early 70's) had cotton/rubber insulated single
conductors in two-channel wooden "conduit". And the small bore lead
pipes for the original gas lights were still "live", as I discovered
early on in my rewiring. Then while hunting for a gas shut-off valve at
the bottom of a mud-filled gas stop-cock access outside the front door I
managed to snap off what turned out to be the cock for draining water
from the gas supply main. (The gas board were very helpful and
understanding).


Gas lights and rubber insulation in a 1970s house that must be unusual. Was
it a poorly refurbished older place.

Radio Man Wrote in message:
newshound wrote:
On 20/10/2020 12:49, George Miles wrote:

Anyways, to my question...?

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?
When I bought this house it had fuse wires in a wooden box and ancient rubbery wiring.
My first move was to get an electrician to fit 3 beefy radials with a
socket at the ends for electric heaters etc in the most used rooms.
They added a new consumer unit and a new earth spike, presumably they
wanted nothing to do with the old wiring.
[george]

Luxury!

My first house (early 70's) had cotton/rubber insulated single
conductors in two-channel wooden "conduit". And the small bore lead
pipes for the original gas lights were still "live", as I discovered
early on in my rewiring. Then while hunting for a gas shut-off valve at
the bottom of a mud-filled gas stop-cock access outside the front door I
managed to snap off what turned out to be the cock for draining water
from the gas supply main. (The gas board were very helpful and
understanding).


Gas lights and rubber insulation in a 1970s house that must be unusual. Was
it a poorly refurbished older place.



Duh......
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 23 Oct 2020 at 08:21:01 BST, "Alan" wrote:

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 18:05:33 +0100, ARW wrote:

All of them if done to the latest rules. Although the outside light at
your sisters could in theory be fed from a RCD fused spur.

There have been debates about this on the IET site since the 18th came
in. The opinion is that RCD fused spares are now not allowed,on their
own, as BS7288 says they need additional protection before the device.
In real life terms, a fused spur would be fine, but the Committee doesnt
seem to think it is enough, but havent explained their reasoning.
I've not looked into it recently, 2 links here from last year going into
more detail.


https://communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/24578?post_id=122762#p122762


https://communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/24702?post_id=124430#p124430

Having read that, do you think an RCD/FCU to replace an existing FCU would
count as a minor alteration rather than a new circuit? If not, a plug in RCD
using an existing socket would be totally outside the scope of the wiring
regs?

--
Roger Hayter

On 23/10/2020 08:21, Alan wrote:
On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 18:05:33 +0100, ARW wrote:

All of them if done to the latest rules. Although the outside light at
your sisters could in theory be fed from a RCD fused spur.

There have been debates about this on the IET site since the 18th came
in. The opinion is that RCD fused spares are now not allowed,on their
own, as BS7288 says they need additional protection before the device.
In real life terms, a fused spur would be fine, but the Committee doesnt
seem to think it is enough, but havent explained their reasoning.
I've not looked into it recently, 2 links here from last year going into
more detail.

https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24578?
post_id=122762#p122762

https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24702?
post_id=124430#p124430

They were talking about that in the 17th edition.

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Co...-Guide-25.aspx

--
Adam

ARW posted
On 23/10/2020 08:21, Alan wrote:
On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 18:05:33 +0100, ARW wrote:

All of them if done to the latest rules. Although the outside light

your sisters could in theory be fed from a RCD fused spur.
There have been debates about this on the IET site since the 18th
came
in. The opinion is that RCD fused spares are now not allowed,on their
own, as BS7288 says they need additional protection before the device.
In real life terms, a fused spur would be fine, but the Committee doesnt
seem to think it is enough, but havent explained their reasoning.
I've not looked into it recently, 2 links here from last year going into
more detail.
https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24578?
post_id=122762#p122762
https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24702?
post_id=124430#p124430

They were talking about that in the 17th edition.

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Co...ket-Guides/Poc
ket-Guide-25.aspx

Can't see anything there about fused spurs.

--
Algernon

On 24/10/2020 09:31, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
ARW posted
On 23/10/2020 08:21, Alan wrote:
On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 18:05:33 +0100, ARW wrote:

All of them if done to the latest rules. Although the outside light
your sisters could in theory be fed from a RCD fused spur.
Â*There have been debates about this on the IET site since the 18th came
in. The opinion is that RCD fused spares are now not allowed,on their
own, as BS7288 says they need additional protection before the device.
In real life terms, a fused spur would be fine, but the Committee doesnt
seem to think it is enough, but havent explained their reasoning.
I've not looked into it recently, 2 links here from last year going into
more detail.
Â*https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24578?
post_id=122762#p122762
Â*https://communities.theiet.org/discu...ic/1037/24702?
post_id=124430#p124430

They were talking about that in the 17th edition.

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Co...ket-Guides/Poc
ket-Guide-25.aspx

Can't see anything there about fused spurs.

That's not my problem.

--
Adam

On 23/10/2020 10:43, Radio Man wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 20/10/2020 12:49, George Miles wrote:

Anyways, to my question...€¦

Do any of the above scenarios mandate the fitting of RCDS / RCBOs?
When I bought this house it had fuse wires in a wooden box and ancient rubbery wiring.
My first move was to get an electrician to fit 3 beefy radials with a
socket at the ends for electric heaters etc in the most used rooms.
They added a new consumer unit and a new earth spike, presumably they
wanted nothing to do with the old wiring.
[george]

Luxury!

My first house (early 70's) had cotton/rubber insulated single
conductors in two-channel wooden "conduit". And the small bore lead
pipes for the original gas lights were still "live", as I discovered
early on in my rewiring. Then while hunting for a gas shut-off valve at
the bottom of a mud-filled gas stop-cock access outside the front door I
managed to snap off what turned out to be the cock for draining water
from the gas supply main. (The gas board were very helpful and
understanding).


Gas lights and rubber insulation in a 1970s house that must be unusual. Was
it a poorly refurbished older place.

Can't work out if you are serious, but in case not, it was dated 1889
and then refurbished to state of the art in about 1910.