On 03/10/2020 20:15, Andrew wrote:
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time,
and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Which seems like a fairly sloppy bit of VAT fraud - especially if
someone audits one of his customers, and checks the bona fides of the
invoices they are claiming VAT back on.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/10/2020 19:34, DJC wrote:
On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/10/2020 12:17, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 22:24, williamwright wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

Is that 30% above trade price, or 30% above retail? Anyway, 100% on
top of retails seems like **** taking.

Not if you are buying at retail price yourself and then selling on.

Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only
very slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can
be higher!

So if a customer wants you to supply both materials and service, they
will have to be prepared to pay the higher prices on the materials.


The difference between 'trade' and 'retail' is very vague these days. A
small tradesman is probably not getting a significantly better deal than
anyone else prepared to shop around.

Indeed - and lots of it comes down to buying power, if I need something
in 1s and 2s now and then, I am unlikely to get the same pricing as an
online discounter buying in the 1000s. Which often means I can get a
product into a customer hands cheaper buying from ebuyer than I can
going to one of the big disties like Ingram, especially when you factor
in delivery costs etc.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/10/2020 20:24, Andrew wrote:
On 03/10/2020 17:28, williamwright wrote:
some radio ham wants a strange aerial,

Or even "some 'strange' radio ham wants an aerial" :-)

I was thinking that, but then realised it was an unnecessary
qualification :-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 14:35:36 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 03/10/2020 09:44, Chris B wrote:


That is a fair point, and as someone else said I have the opportunity to
spend half a day looking for the best price.* In practice however these
days with google it takes but seconds to get the best price.

Go and Google for the best price for, say, a TV (identical model
numbers) or white goods (identical model numbers). Prices inclusive of
delivery and only from those suppliers with stock who can deliver
quickly. You may find that it takes more than a few seconds.

About 10 years ago I was looking at a Samsung 36" TV. John Lewis £x; best
from a 'real' shop £x+150+£25 delivery and 1-year warranty, extra 4 years
for quite a lot.
JL: £100 cash to reclaim from Samsung, free delivery and a 5-year warranty.
That, plus JL being a bus-ride away, plus service - JL it was.
Cheaper ain't always less expensive.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only
very slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can
be higher!

Many years ago a major aerial manufacturer lost a lot of their trade
business because they were selling to the DIY sheds at much cheaper
prices than they were selling to aerial riggers. The trade simply
switched to other brands en masse.

Says it all about many trades. They just go for the best deal, not the
best product.

As with boilers.

I take it you think the price a maker sells something to various different
customers should be controlled by law?

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
DJC wrote:
The difference between 'trade' and 'retail' is very vague these days. A
small tradesman is probably not getting a significantly better deal than
anyone else prepared to shop around.

I don't really see anything wrong with that. Maybe even a good thing.
Allows you to compare labour rates more directly.

--
*'Progress' and 'Change' are not synonyms.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
RJH wrote:
100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?

Most won't.

I got a local garage to change the handbrake cable on the old Rover - it's
a car in the air job. When they found they couldn't source a new one, they
got back to me. And fitted the new one I had.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199 Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the
job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a 100%
mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be passing
this VAT on, not pocketing it

On 03/10/2020 22:52, alan_m wrote:
On 03/10/2020 22:28, RJH wrote:

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit
parts I'd
supply?


Too many customer supplied counterfeit parts purchased on Ebay?

Need for traceability of parts from known suppliers for safety,
liability or insurance purposes?


Non-franchised (back street) places just buy from the cheapest
trade outlet.
Neighbour can get a pair of front disks for less than £20 but
even he says they are rubbish so goes for something that has a
trade price of about £35/pair.
Then they phone the local franchised dealer to see what the
manufacturers price is and that's what they charge for the
cheapo stuff !!.

On 03/10/2020 23:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/10/2020 20:15, Andrew wrote:
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Which seems like a fairly sloppy bit of VAT fraud - especially if
someone audits one of his customers, and checks the bona fides of the
invoices they are claiming VAT back on.



They are all private individuals, generally older folk who cannot
afford main dealer servicing on their 8+ YO whatever. Many of them were
his customers when he did have a premises and a proper business.
He has been 'retired' for a few years and is of the opinion that "I have
paid plenty of tax when I ran my garage business". HMRC think he is just
filling his time watching daytime TV I guess.

His clients all probably think he is still 'in business' so don't query
it, or the handwritten invoice and pay mostly in cash anyway.

He's a bit thick in many ways. I've had arguments before about the
trade vs 'retail' pricing. As a private person he pays VAT on the trade
price and the customer never sees his trade account or invoice. QED
he can charge whatever he likes, but he is adamant that he 'has' to
charge the 'retail' price, and probably thinks he 'has to' charge
VAT too !, but his VAT number went with the garage
business he sold years ago.

tim... wrote:

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be passing
this VAT on, not pocketing it

Not really I don't think.

If the tradesman *isn't* VAT registered then he just charges the
customer what the item cost (including VAT) plus his markup, no
further added VAT.

If the tradesman *is* VAT registered and he has a VAT receipt from the
retailer where he bought the item then he claims back the VAT he's
paid and charges VAT on the sale of the item to the customer.


The net result for the customer is pretty much the same either way:-

Price (including VAT) + tradesman's markup

Price (ex VAT) + tradesman's markup + VAT

The resulting cost depends on how much the markup percentage is.


--
Chris Green
·

On 04/10/2020 15:01, tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be
passing this VAT on, not pocketing it




He isn't VAT registered !. That lapsed or went with the garage
business that he sold many years ago and 'retired'.
Now he does the work on his drive or seems to spend a lot of time
at another garage. I often hear him say "I can't get a ramp today,
so I;ll have to do it on the drive" !.

One day the motor factor where he has an account might get an
audit and they will notice trade accounts that have 'funny' names
and will investigate further.

On 04/10/2020 07:52, PeterC wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 14:35:36 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 03/10/2020 09:44, Chris B wrote:


That is a fair point, and as someone else said I have the opportunity to
spend half a day looking for the best price.Â* In practice however these
days with google it takes but seconds to get the best price.

Go and Google for the best price for, say, a TV (identical model
numbers) or white goods (identical model numbers). Prices inclusive of
delivery and only from those suppliers with stock who can deliver
quickly. You may find that it takes more than a few seconds.

About 10 years ago I was looking at a Samsung 36" TV. John Lewis £x; best
from a 'real' shop £x+150+£25 delivery and 1-year warranty, extra 4 years
for quite a lot.
JL: £100 cash to reclaim from Samsung, free delivery and a 5-year warranty.
That, plus JL being a bus-ride away, plus service - JL it was.
Cheaper ain't always less expensive.


Local Panny dealer shows price tickets on their window/store stock
that is the next SRP up (according to the Panny website) on each TV.
Once a year in August they have a 'sale' and reduce the price stickers
down to the SRP price that Panasonic show !.

On 04/10/2020 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Says it all about many trades. They just go for the best deal, not the
best product.

Actually no, not in this case. We weren't changing makes to get a better
deal, we were doing it to boycott a particular manufacturer because they
had a policy of selling to the DIY sheds at a lower price than to the trade.
The change was mostly to the main competitor, and the quality was at
least as good.


I take it you think the price a maker sells something to various different
customers should be controlled by law?

No, unlike like you I'm not a statist/commie. They can sell at whatever
price pleases them and customers can vote with their feet. That's the
free market, an alien concept to the likes of you I think.

Bill

On 04/10/2020 15:01, tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

If he is VAT registered, then yes he must charge VAT on sales, but at
the same time will reclaim VAT on purchases. Hence the tax paid to HMRC
is just on the value added to the product or whatever as it moves though
his ownership.

If he is not VAT registered, then he can still sell at a profit, but not
reclaim the input VAT, or add VAT to his sales.

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be
passing this VAT on, not pocketing it

If not registered, he is not permitted to charge VAT in the first place,
and would have no mechanism for paying VAT to HMRC.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 3 Oct 2020 at 22:52:33 BST, "alan_m" wrote:

On 03/10/2020 22:28, RJH wrote:

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?


Too many customer supplied counterfeit parts purchased on Ebay?

Need for traceability of parts from known suppliers for safety,
liability or insurance purposes?

When I've wanted to it's been for the much the same reason -
manufacturer/known brand (say, Bosch, Brembo) cam belt, disks and pads.

IME they've been pattern or OEM parts - not genuine. So probably fine while
any warranty applies.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.


Items supplied through Amazon are not always the same quality as those
supplied by Amazon unless branded, even then some are copies.

Having been a supplier to Amazon for ten years Ive seen many instances
of crap being sold on the back of an official listing.

Mike

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 04/10/2020 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Says it all about many trades. They just go for the best deal, not the
best product.

Actually no, not in this case. We weren't changing makes to get a better
deal, we were doing it to boycott a particular manufacturer because they
had a policy of selling to the DIY sheds at a lower price than to the trade.
The change was mostly to the main competitor, and the quality was at
least as good.


I take it you think the price a maker sells something to various different
customers should be controlled by law?

No, unlike like you I'm not a statist/commie. They can sell at whatever
price pleases them and customers can vote with their feet. That's the
free market, an alien concept to the likes of you I think.

You're very wrong there, Bill.

But the idea of boycotting a product you once thought the best purely
because that company does a deal with someone else (without making a
difference to the price you pay) seems very odd to me. Unless of course
you are ashamed of charging a price for it which is now rather obviously
far more than the customer thinks it should be.

Most people can't put up their own external aerials. So just what a shed
may sell them for is neither hear nor there.

--
*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/10/2020 09:36, Muddymike wrote:

Items supplied through Amazon are not always the same quality as those
supplied by Amazon unless branded, even then some are copies.

The major problem with Amazon is that they lump the reviews from
different suppliers together. The reviews are not for individual Amazon
marketplace suppliers but for the item. If there are three traders
supplying item X but two are selling the genuine item and one a
sub-standard counterfeit item there will be three listings for the
product and possibly three different prices. When you go to the customer
review sections the reviews for all three listings will be identical.
There will be a large percentage of the reviews giving five stars
because these are from the customers who have got the genuine item and
also a substantial number of one star reviews from the people who have
received the counterfeit item. From the reviews there is no way of
identifying the supplier of the shoddy goods.

When writing a product review Amazon will publish negative reviews about
the product but reject any product reviews if the supplier is named and
criticised.

Amazon also lump reviews for different products together, usually a
range of products from the same manufacturer. This results in reviews
mentioning features of a top end variant of a product being included in
the listing of a base model.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article , alan_m
writes
On 03/10/2020 22:28, RJH wrote:

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?


Too many customer supplied counterfeit parts purchased on Ebay?

Need for traceability of parts from known suppliers for safety,
liability or insurance purposes?

And then they find they're not an exact replica and actually don't fit.
Britpart were notorious for this on LR parts.
--
bert

In article , tim...
writes


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers
at trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be
passing this VAT on, not pocketing it


But he hasn't got a vat number so the whole thing is just a cover for
adding an extra 20% on to the retail price.
--
bert

In article , Chris Green
writes
Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I think the 'tradesman' has a number of problems nowadays:-

If you shop around you can nearly always find bits and pieces more
cheaply on eBay or Amazon.

The tradesman needs to buy everything he uses quickly and simply
from just one or two suppliers, he can't spend his time searching
for the best price on the internet - time is money

The 'trade discount' may not be all that much, or even available
to a one-man business.

It *might* be worth asking if the tradesman would be happy if you
source the parts.

When my son wanted a cement mixer for his business (not then vat
registered) it was actually cheaper for me to buy it on my Diamond card
than for him to buy it on his trade account.
--
bert

In article , Jimk
writes
Chris Green Wrote in message:
Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199 Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I think the 'tradesman' has a number of problems nowadays:-

If you shop around you can nearly always find bits and pieces more
cheaply on eBay or Amazon.

The tradesman needs to buy everything he uses quickly and simply
from just one or two suppliers, he can't spend his time searching
for the best price on the internet - time is money

The 'trade discount' may not be all that much, or even available
to a one-man business.

It *might* be worth asking if the tradesman would be happy if you
source the parts.


Although when "your" parts fail don't expect any "callback"
privileges...
And expect to pay his time if your parts actually don't fit.
--
bert

newshound wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.


Maybe he keeps his hourly rate down that way. He might admit it if you
point out "your" prices.

Perhaps he gets his spares from somewhere with a high list price but a
big trade discount.

IIRC the Radiospares trade discount was 40% on the public price.


30 or 40 years ago tradesmen could buy stuff a lot cheaper than people who
werent. These days anyone can walk into a wholesaler or onto the internet
or indeed into RS Online and get much the same price as everyone else.
Regular account customers get a slightly better rate, but its nothing like
the old days.

--
Chris

On 05/10/2020 15:42, bert wrote:
But he hasn't got a vat number so the whole thing is just a cover for
adding an extra 20% on to the retail price.
--
bert

When he buys it costs him the sale price plus the VAT. He applies his
mark-up percentage to that figure, because that figure is how much he's
had to lay out. What's wrong with that? The various elements of his
buying price are irrelevant to him, and that includes taxes.

Bill

On 05/10/2020 11:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
No, unlike like you I'm not a statist/commie. They can sell at whatever
price pleases them and customers can vote with their feet. That's the
free market, an alien concept to the likes of you I think.
You're very wrong there, Bill.

But the idea of boycotting a product you once thought the best

No, it was no better or worse than the competition.

purely
because that company does a deal with someone else (without making a
difference to the price you pay) seems very odd to me. Unless of course
you are ashamed of charging a price for it which is now rather obviously
far more than the customer thinks it should be.

The fact is that some customers grossly underestimate labour costs and
overheads. Profit on the materials just lets them carry on living in
la-la land. It makes for a quiet life. It's just the way it is.


Most people can't put up their own external aerials. So just what a shed
may sell them for is neither hear nor there.

Actually the sheds sell ever such a lot of aerials. People find a way:
1. Loft job
2. Window cleaner job
3. Local handyman job
4. Son-in-law job
5. Risky rooftop DIY job
6. Balcony job
7. Under the eaves job.

http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/aerialphotography/diy/

Bill

On 05/10/2020 18:29, williamwright wrote:
On 05/10/2020 15:42, bert wrote:
But he hasn't got a vat number so the whole thing is just a cover for
adding an extra 20% on to the retail price.
--
bert

When he buys it costs him the sale price plus the VAT. He applies his
mark-up percentage to that figure, because that figure is how much he's
had to lay out. What's wrong with that? The various elements of his
buying price are irrelevant to him, and that includes taxes.

Nothing wrong with that...

I think the problem is he is buying an item at say £120 inc VAT. He then
applies his 30% markup. Making his retail price £156.

If he sold it at that price, all would be fine. Not being VAT registered
he won't be able to claim back the £20 quid VAT on the purchase price,
but also he won't need to add VAT to the sale price. So the original £20
VAT just gets passed onto the customer.

However it sounds like he is telling the end user that the price is £156
+ VAT or £187 inc. So he collects an additional £31 of "VAT" from the
customer on behalf of HMRC, which he has no way of passing to HMRC, and
just pockets along with his original £36 of profit!

HMRC tend to take a dim view of such practices. If he issues a fake VAT
invoice to the end user then he is really asking for trouble, since its
likely one of the customers will stick the bill through his company so
he can claim back the VAT. If that gets audited and someone checks the
invoice was issued by a legit business it all unravels quickly.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/10/2020 15:45, bert wrote:
In article , Chris Green
writes
Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I think the 'tradesman' has a number of problems nowadays:-

Â*Â* If you shop around you can nearly always find bits and pieces more
Â*Â* cheaply on eBay or Amazon.

Â*Â* The tradesman needs to buy everything he uses quickly and simply
Â*Â* from just one or two suppliers, he can't spend his time searching
Â*Â* for the best price on the internet - time is money

Â*Â* The 'trade discount' may not be all that much, or even available
Â*Â* to a one-man business.

It *might* be worth asking if the tradesman would be happy if you
source the parts.

When my son wanted a cement mixer for his business (not then vat
registered) it was actually cheaper for me to buy it on my Diamond card
than for him to buy it on his trade account.

I remember a customer asking me to get him a scanner once (only a fairly
low end thing). So I checked with a trade supplier, and could get it for
(say) £60 + £10 P&P. I then checked an online retailer, and found I
could get it for £58 with free delivery. So I did that instead. I was
amused when it turned up that it had been drop shipped to me direct by
the original trade only wholesaler that quoted me £60 in the first place!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/10/2020 18:43, williamwright wrote:

The fact is that some customers grossly underestimate labour costs and
overheads.

The TV media are responsible for that.
Exposing a dodgy trader they will make comments such as the charge was
£70 to change a 10p tap washer ignoring that £70 (or more) is a common
call oy charge from reputable traders.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

John Rumm wrote:
When my son wanted a cement mixer for his business (not then vat
registered) it was actually cheaper for me to buy it on my Diamond card
than for him to buy it on his trade account.

I remember a customer asking me to get him a scanner once (only a fairly
low end thing). So I checked with a trade supplier, and could get it for
(say) £60 + £10 P&P. I then checked an online retailer, and found I
could get it for £58 with free delivery. So I did that instead. I was
amused when it turned up that it had been drop shipped to me direct by
the original trade only wholesaler that quoted me £60 in the first place!

It's not that rare I find for prices to be (slightly) lower from a
business on eBay than direct from their own web site. I guess it
gives them a bit more flexibility to provide 'trade' discounts when
selling direct.

--
Chris Green
·

On Monday, 5 October 2020 19:40:12 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
I remember a customer asking me to get him a scanner once (only a fairly
low end thing). So I checked with a trade supplier, and could get it for
(say) £60 + £10 P&P. I then checked an online retailer, and found I
could get it for £58 with free delivery. So I did that instead. I was
amused when it turned up that it had been drop shipped to me direct by
the original trade only wholesaler that quoted me £60 in the first place!

My plaster from Ebay came from Jewsons.

I was slightly annoyed as Ebay packages usually come by Hermes and the nice lady carries them up the stairs.

She might not have been so nice about a pallet-load though.

Owain

Chris Holmes wrote:
30 or 40 years ago tradesmen could buy stuff a lot cheaper than people who
werent. These days anyone can walk into a wholesaler or onto the internet
or indeed into RS Online and get much the same price as everyone else.
Regular account customers get a slightly better rate, but its nothing like
the old days.

That's likely true for 'parts' - if you look at the price breaks on
somewhere like RS you can get a decent discount but you do have to buy 500
or whatever at once. As part of the university purchasing consortium we get
up to 20% discount on some lines at RS and Farnell, but regular punters can
get something approaching that by going through Quidco or Topcashback.

How does it work out for things like timber? Presumably buying a lorry load
is still going to get you a discount over buying in ones and twos?
Builders' merchants seem to be extremely coy about revealing their prices so
it's hard to tell.

(at the local one I opened an account, only to discover that even while
logged in to their website with a live account everything is still 'request
a quote'. FFS, I'll just go to Wickes)

Theo

Wrote in message:
On Monday, 5 October 2020 19:40:12 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
I remember a customer asking me to get him a scanner once (only a fairly
low end thing). So I checked with a trade supplier, and could get it for
(say) £60 + £10 P&P. I then checked an online retailer, and found I
could get it for £58 with free delivery. So I did that instead. I was
amused when it turned up that it had been drop shipped to me direct by
the original trade only wholesaler that quoted me £60 in the first place!

My plaster from Ebay came from Jewsons.

Was it a good deal?


--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

alan_m wrote:
On 05/10/2020 18:43, williamwright wrote:

The fact is that some customers grossly underestimate labour costs and
overheads.

The TV media are responsible for that.
Exposing a dodgy trader they will make comments such as the charge was
£70 to change a 10p tap washer ignoring that £70 (or more) is a common
call oy charge from reputable traders.

The nice thing about DIY is that, even if you cost labour at a nominal rate,
the callout charge is £0.

Theo

In article ,
Chris Green wrote:
It's not that rare I find for prices to be (slightly) lower from a
business on eBay than direct from their own web site. I guess it
gives them a bit more flexibility to provide 'trade' discounts when
selling direct.

EuroCarParts are famous for this. Different prices on Ebay, web and in
store. And then there are their discount codes.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Chris Green wrote:
It's not that rare I find for prices to be (slightly) lower from a
business on eBay than direct from their own web site. I guess it
gives them a bit more flexibility to provide 'trade' discounts when
selling direct.

I find the postage is often better on ebay - often the supplier will have a
flat delivery rate like £10+VAT, when on ebay you're buying one item and
they calculate delivery specifically for that item alone.

Given the 'free delivery' obfuscation (it's not free, it's bundled into the
price), it can often be cheaper to go to ebay to buy one item and the
supplier's website to buy several.

Theo

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 05/10/2020 11:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
No, unlike like you I'm not a statist/commie. They can sell at whatever
price pleases them and customers can vote with their feet. That's the
free market, an alien concept to the likes of you I think.
You're very wrong there, Bill.

But the idea of boycotting a product you once thought the best

No, it was no better or worse than the competition.

Ah - sorry I thought it was the brand all the trade bought.

So if the trade buys what it fancies on a whim since they are all much of
a much, you can hardly expect a maker to have absolute loyalty to that
trade?

purely because that company does a deal with someone else (without
making a difference to the price you pay) seems very odd to me. Unless
of course you are ashamed of charging a price for it which is now
rather obviously far more than the customer thinks it should be.

The fact is that some customers grossly underestimate labour costs and
overheads. Profit on the materials just lets them carry on living in
la-la land. It makes for a quiet life. It's just the way it is.

Then easier to simply quote a price for the job? No need for a breakdown
of any sort?


Most people can't put up their own external aerials. So just what a
shed may sell them for is neither hear nor there.

Actually the sheds sell ever such a lot of aerials. People find a way:
1. Loft job
2. Window cleaner job
3. Local handyman job
4. Son-in-law job
5. Risky rooftop DIY job
6. Balcony job
7. Under the eaves job.

So not so different as any job round the house.

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , williamwright
writes
On 05/10/2020 15:42, bert wrote:
But he hasn't got a vat number so the whole thing is just a cover for
adding an extra 20% on to the retail price.
-- bert

When he buys it costs him the sale price plus the VAT. He applies his
mark-up percentage to that figure, because that figure is how much he's
had to lay out. What's wrong with that? The various elements of his
buying price are irrelevant to him, and that includes taxes.

Bill
Nothing. AIUI he was quoting a price to the customer and then saying he
was adding vat. Maybe I misunderstood.
--
bert

In article , John
Rumm writes
On 05/10/2020 18:29, williamwright wrote:
On 05/10/2020 15:42, bert wrote:
But he hasn't got a vat number so the whole thing is just a cover
for adding an extra 20% on to the retail price.
-- bert
When he buys it costs him the sale price plus the VAT. He applies
his mark-up percentage to that figure, because that figure is how
much he's had to lay out. What's wrong with that? The various
elements of his buying price are irrelevant to him, and that includes taxes.

Nothing wrong with that...

I think the problem is he is buying an item at say £120 inc VAT. He
then applies his 30% markup. Making his retail price £156.

If he sold it at that price, all would be fine. Not being VAT
registered he won't be able to claim back the £20 quid VAT on the
purchase price, but also he won't need to add VAT to the sale price. So
the original £20 VAT just gets passed onto the customer.

However it sounds like he is telling the end user that the price is
£156 + VAT or £187 inc. So he collects an additional £31 of "VAT" from
the customer on behalf of HMRC, which he has no way of passing to HMRC,
and just pockets along with his original £36 of profit!

HMRC tend to take a dim view of such practices. If he issues a fake VAT
invoice to the end user then he is really asking for trouble, since its
likely one of the customers will stick the bill through his company so
he can claim back the VAT. If that gets audited and someone checks the
invoice was issued by a legit business it all unravels quickly.




+1
--
bert

In article , Chris B
writes
On 03/10/2020 09:15, Chris Green wrote:
Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I think the 'tradesman' has a number of problems nowadays:-
If you shop around you can nearly always find bits and pieces
more
cheaply on eBay or Amazon.

But these days its not "shopping around" its one google search.

The tradesman needs to buy everything he uses quickly and
simply
from just one or two suppliers, he can't spend his time searching
for the best price on the internet - time is money

That is a fair point, and as someone else said I have the opportunity
to spend half a day looking for the best price. In practice however
these days with google it takes but seconds to get the best price.

For the tradesman however this could result in him having to set up
payment arrangements with dozens of different suppliers (or pay up
front), as opposed to just settling one bill at the end of the month.


The 'trade discount' may not be all that much, or even
available
to a one-man business.
It *might* be worth asking if the tradesman would be happy if you
source the parts.

I can understand anyones reluctance to install parts supplied by the
customer - you might never know quite what you are letting yourself in
for - even though in this case parts would be identical part numbers I
would expect a "No".




Garage friend says he's had it a few times esp with wing mirrors. Bought
of ebay supposedly identical part but doesn't quite fit or colour not
quite right.
--
bert