I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

--


(News)

On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a 100%
mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus
VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a 100%
mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:


100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.


And maybe the price also has an allowance for some of the consumables to
fit it.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

I think its a good point about the procurement, as somebody has to find the
parts and buy them, and that time has to be paid for of course.
I can remember a friend who used to repair electronic things before the
days of surface mount made it a job for the brave, and often he would get a
call from somebody who said a chip had gone, but he did not have the
confidence to change it himself, hoping that my friend would do it very
cheaply. Often he would do the job, but equally often the original person
did not take into account that the faulty chip might have been caused by a
fault elsewhere so he always checked the circuit and this made the bill
higher of course. but some people just won't accept this sort of knowledge
driven repair strategy.
I don't know about boilers but often the reason why boards are swapped is
not because changing the parts is hard but because the time taken to fault
find the pcb, would make the repair cost much higher.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:


100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.


And maybe the price also has an allowance for some of the consumables to
fit it.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 03/10/2020 08:03, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I think its a good point about the procurement, as somebody has to find the
parts and buy them, and that time has to be paid for of course.
I can remember a friend who used to repair electronic things before the
days of surface mount made it a job for the brave, and often he would get a
call from somebody who said a chip had gone, but he did not have the
confidence to change it himself, hoping that my friend would do it very
cheaply. Often he would do the job, but equally often the original person
did not take into account that the faulty chip might have been caused by a
fault elsewhere so he always checked the circuit and this made the bill
higher of course. but some people just won't accept this sort of knowledge
driven repair strategy.
I don't know about boilers but often the reason why boards are swapped is
not because changing the parts is hard but because the time taken to fault
find the pcb, would make the repair cost much higher.
Brian



I'd expect the time spent ordering and getting the parts to be charged
for, but I really didn't see why I should pay him twice the parts cost.

On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

Part of that is clearly time and hence billable as such. I'm not sure
about risk of faulty parts, incurred as an intermediary.


However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a
100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.


Surely it should depend on time and risk?

On 03/10/2020 08:24, Pancho wrote:
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time,
and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

Part of that is clearly time and hence billable as such. I'm not sure
about risk of faulty parts, incurred as an intermediary.

If I supply equipment to a customer, and something fails, then its my
responsibility to fix, even if the failure was not my fault.

That costs time and money, and in the circumstances, its time and money
I can't recover that from the customer if the equipment is still under
warranty.

So that is an overhead that one has to build into your prices.


Even if the OEM will replace the kit FoC, there is still the time spent
diagnosing, and orchestrating the process.

(hence why some OEMs will voluntarily take on the responsibility for
warranty support directly with end users even though they have no legal
obligation to do so - it can be a cost and risk reduction exercise for
the retailer, that makes those companies products more attractive to sell)


However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.


Surely it should depend on time and risk?

Not necessarily. For businesses that make a significant proportion of
their income though product sales, then the margins will tend to be
higher since they need to cover the majority of the costs of operating
the business. Pubs for example will typically mark up drink well in
excess of 100%, and most of those are running very close to the edge
even then.

If you go buy a sandwich in M&S you will pay several 100% over the cost
of the bread and fillings. You are paying for many things, not just the
cost of the materials.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a
100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

On 3 Oct 2020 at 20:15:49 BST, "Andrew"
wrote:

On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a
100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?

--
Cheers, Rob

On 03/10/2020 22:28:47, RJH wrote:
On 3 Oct 2020 at 20:15:49 BST, "Andrew"
wrote:

On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a
100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?

Some garages will, but then qualify the fitting where if the item fails
they are not responsible.

I specifically known a local garage fit the owner's supplied discs and
pads without issue.

On 03/10/2020 22:28, RJH wrote:

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?


Too many customer supplied counterfeit parts purchased on Ebay?

Need for traceability of parts from known suppliers for safety,
liability or insurance purposes?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
RJH wrote:
100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Might that explain why any garage I've had dealings with won't fit parts I'd
supply?

Most won't.

I got a local garage to change the handbrake cable on the old Rover - it's
a car in the air job. When they found they couldn't source a new one, they
got back to me. And fitted the new one I had.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/10/2020 20:15, Andrew wrote:
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time,
and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Which seems like a fairly sloppy bit of VAT fraud - especially if
someone audits one of his customers, and checks the bona fides of the
invoices they are claiming VAT back on.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/10/2020 23:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/10/2020 20:15, Andrew wrote:
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

Which seems like a fairly sloppy bit of VAT fraud - especially if
someone audits one of his customers, and checks the bona fides of the
invoices they are claiming VAT back on.



They are all private individuals, generally older folk who cannot
afford main dealer servicing on their 8+ YO whatever. Many of them were
his customers when he did have a premises and a proper business.
He has been 'retired' for a few years and is of the opinion that "I have
paid plenty of tax when I ran my garage business". HMRC think he is just
filling his time watching daytime TV I guess.

His clients all probably think he is still 'in business' so don't query
it, or the handwritten invoice and pay mostly in cash anyway.

He's a bit thick in many ways. I've had arguments before about the
trade vs 'retail' pricing. As a private person he pays VAT on the trade
price and the customer never sees his trade account or invoice. QED
he can charge whatever he likes, but he is adamant that he 'has' to
charge the 'retail' price, and probably thinks he 'has to' charge
VAT too !, but his VAT number went with the garage
business he sold years ago.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199 Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the
job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services for
clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means you
lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your time, and
bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just increase that
loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a fairly
high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts with a 100%
mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and the
product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be passing
this VAT on, not pocketing it

On 04/10/2020 15:01, tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be
passing this VAT on, not pocketing it




He isn't VAT registered !. That lapsed or went with the garage
business that he sold many years ago and 'retired'.
Now he does the work on his drive or seems to spend a lot of time
at another garage. I often hear him say "I can't get a ramp today,
so I;ll have to do it on the drive" !.

One day the motor factor where he has an account might get an
audit and they will notice trade accounts that have 'funny' names
and will investigate further.

tim... wrote:

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be passing
this VAT on, not pocketing it

Not really I don't think.

If the tradesman *isn't* VAT registered then he just charges the
customer what the item cost (including VAT) plus his markup, no
further added VAT.

If the tradesman *is* VAT registered and he has a VAT receipt from the
retailer where he bought the item then he claims back the VAT he's
paid and charges VAT on the sale of the item to the customer.


The net result for the customer is pretty much the same either way:-

Price (including VAT) + tradesman's markup

Price (ex VAT) + tradesman's markup + VAT

The resulting cost depends on how much the markup percentage is.


--
Chris Green
·

On 04/10/2020 15:01, tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

If he is VAT registered, then yes he must charge VAT on sales, but at
the same time will reclaim VAT on purchases. Hence the tax paid to HMRC
is just on the value added to the product or whatever as it moves though
his ownership.

If he is not VAT registered, then he can still sell at a profit, but not
reclaim the input VAT, or add VAT to his sales.

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be
passing this VAT on, not pocketing it

If not registered, he is not permitted to charge VAT in the first place,
and would have no mechanism for paying VAT to HMRC.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , tim...
writes


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 02/10/2020 21:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:38, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers
at trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.



As a professional, I charged for my time. If I bought in services
for clients, I passed them on at cost.

Which if you literally do that (i.e. sell at your buy price), means
you lose money on every part sold - since procurement takes your
time, and bites into your cash flow, warranty replacements then just
increase that loss.

However, I got a quote from a gas fitter recently who charged a
fairly high rate for his time AND wanted to sell me a lot of parts
with a 100% mark-up. This made his hourly rate of charge really high!

100% might be taking the pee, although it depends on the market and
the product.



100% is pretty well par for the course in the garage trade. My
ex-MOT-tester neighbour still does it for all the private work
he still does. And he charges VAT on the bull**** 'retail' price
and then pockets the extra 20% on the markup.

However perverse it sounds, charging VAT on top of a vat-able price for
products bought retail is the correct thing to do

useless he wants to risk getting caught at a VAT audit he will be
passing this VAT on, not pocketing it


But he hasn't got a vat number so the whole thing is just a cover for
adding an extra 20% on to the retail price.
--
bert

"Chris B" wrote in message
...
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs to
save him the time of a visit) which includes £199 Plus VAT for listed
parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.

Thats not necessarily the price he pays for the parts he uses tho.

I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade prices
and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry or
is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?

Or he does want it at that price.

So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.


Maybe he keeps his hourly rate down that way. He might admit it if you
point out "your" prices.

Perhaps he gets his spares from somewhere with a high list price but a
big trade discount.

IIRC the Radiospares trade discount was 40% on the public price.

newshound wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.


Maybe he keeps his hourly rate down that way. He might admit it if you
point out "your" prices.

Perhaps he gets his spares from somewhere with a high list price but a
big trade discount.

IIRC the Radiospares trade discount was 40% on the public price.


30 or 40 years ago tradesmen could buy stuff a lot cheaper than people who
werent. These days anyone can walk into a wholesaler or onto the internet
or indeed into RS Online and get much the same price as everyone else.
Regular account customers get a slightly better rate, but its nothing like
the old days.

--
Chris

Chris Holmes wrote:
30 or 40 years ago tradesmen could buy stuff a lot cheaper than people who
werent. These days anyone can walk into a wholesaler or onto the internet
or indeed into RS Online and get much the same price as everyone else.
Regular account customers get a slightly better rate, but its nothing like
the old days.

That's likely true for 'parts' - if you look at the price breaks on
somewhere like RS you can get a decent discount but you do have to buy 500
or whatever at once. As part of the university purchasing consortium we get
up to 20% discount on some lines at RS and Farnell, but regular punters can
get something approaching that by going through Quidco or Topcashback.

How does it work out for things like timber? Presumably buying a lorry load
is still going to get you a discount over buying in ones and twos?
Builders' merchants seem to be extremely coy about revealing their prices so
it's hard to tell.

(at the local one I opened an account, only to discover that even while
logged in to their website with a live account everything is still 'request
a quote'. FFS, I'll just go to Wickes)

Theo

On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building industry
or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples time
for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

On 02/10/2020 22:24, williamwright wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus
VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

Is that 30% above trade price, or 30% above retail? Anyway, 100% on top
of retails seems like **** taking.

On 03/10/2020 12:17, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 22:24, williamwright wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

Is that 30% above trade price, or 30% above retail? Anyway, 100% on top
of retails seems like **** taking.

Not if you are buying at retail price yourself and then selling on.

Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only very
slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can be higher!

So if a customer wants you to supply both materials and service, they
will have to be prepared to pay the higher prices on the materials.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only very
slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can be higher!

Many years ago a major aerial manufacturer lost a lot of their trade
business because they were selling to the DIY sheds at much cheaper
prices than they were selling to aerial riggers. The trade simply
switched to other brands en masse.

Bill

On 03/10/2020 17:25, williamwright wrote:
On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only
very slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can
be higher!

Many years ago a major aerial manufacturer lost a lot of their trade
business because they were selling to the DIY sheds at much cheaper
prices than they were selling to aerial riggers. The trade simply
switched to other brands en masse.

Bill

I'd bet that the product sold in big volumes to the likes of
B&Q was made from thinner tubing etc, like Labgear ****e.

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only
very slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can
be higher!

Many years ago a major aerial manufacturer lost a lot of their trade
business because they were selling to the DIY sheds at much cheaper
prices than they were selling to aerial riggers. The trade simply
switched to other brands en masse.

Says it all about many trades. They just go for the best deal, not the
best product.

As with boilers.

I take it you think the price a maker sells something to various different
customers should be controlled by law?

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/10/2020 12:17, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 22:24, williamwright wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to get
the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

Is that 30% above trade price, or 30% above retail? Anyway, 100% on
top of retails seems like **** taking.

Not if you are buying at retail price yourself and then selling on.

Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only very
slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can be higher!

So if a customer wants you to supply both materials and service, they
will have to be prepared to pay the higher prices on the materials.


The difference between 'trade' and 'retail' is very vague these days. A
small tradesman is probably not getting a significantly better deal than
anyone else prepared to shop around.


--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 03/10/2020 19:34, DJC wrote:
On 03/10/2020 14:40, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/10/2020 12:17, GB wrote:
On 02/10/2020 22:24, williamwright wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on
photographs to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199
Plus VAT for listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon
(not amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.


I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Is a markup on parts of well over 100% typical in the building
industry or is this a simple indication that he doesn't want the job?


So far I only have one estimate, as I don't like wasting 3 peoples
time for jobs of less than half a day, when only one is going to
get the job.

I am wondering if its worth getting any more or is this typical.

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

Is that 30% above trade price, or 30% above retail? Anyway, 100% on
top of retails seems like **** taking.

Not if you are buying at retail price yourself and then selling on.

Many small businesses find that their "trade" prices are often only
very slightly below retail (if it at all), and in some cases they can
be higher!

So if a customer wants you to supply both materials and service, they
will have to be prepared to pay the higher prices on the materials.


The difference between 'trade' and 'retail' is very vague these days. A
small tradesman is probably not getting a significantly better deal than
anyone else prepared to shop around.

Indeed - and lots of it comes down to buying power, if I need something
in 1s and 2s now and then, I am unlikely to get the same pricing as an
online discounter buying in the 1000s. Which often means I can get a
product into a customer hands cheaper buying from ebuyer than I can
going to one of the big disties like Ingram, especially when you factor
in delivery costs etc.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
DJC wrote:
The difference between 'trade' and 'retail' is very vague these days. A
small tradesman is probably not getting a significantly better deal than
anyone else prepared to shop around.

I don't really see anything wrong with that. Maybe even a good thing.
Allows you to compare labour rates more directly.

--
*'Progress' and 'Change' are not synonyms.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/10/2020 12:17, GB wrote:

I always marked parts up 30% to allow for stocking, warranties, etc.

Bill

Is that 30% above trade price, or 30% above retail? Anyway, 100% on top
of retails seems like **** taking.

30% mark up on what I paid. It was arbitrary really.

The facts are

1. Tradesmen need to make a certain amount of money

2. They are in competition with other providers or with alternative ways
the customer has of getting the job done.

3. The public can be unrealistic about hourly rates, because they don't
understand about overheads.

4. Some tradesmen try to hide the necessary hourly rate by excessive
mark-up on materials.

5. Some tradesmen are too cheap; some are too dear. Both of these tend
to go bust.

6. Some tradesmen are crooks, no other word for them.

Bill

On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:

The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.

But how many other suppliers did you discard because the same items were
more expensive? As a customer you perhaps have the ability to search the
internet for hours to find the cheapest price at no cost for your own
labour.



I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of parts
but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at trade
prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Thee days trade doesn't always mean a discount - it may just mean they
have 30 days to pay. Just turn up at Screwfix, Toolstation, Wickes and
even B&Q early morning and see how many people in white vans buying the
same goods as you can buy.




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/10/2020 22:56, alan_m wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:

The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.

But how many other suppliers did you discard because the same items were
more expensive? As a customer you perhaps have the ability to search the
internet for hours to find the cheapest price at no cost for your own
labour.



I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Thee days trade doesn't always mean a discount - it may just mean they
have 30 days to pay.Â* Just turn up at Screwfix, Toolstation, Wickes and
even B&Q early morning and see how many people in white vans buying the
same goods as you can buy.

Even I get a 10% discount at Wickes.

On 02/10/2020 22:56, alan_m wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:

The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.

But how many other suppliers did you discard because the same items were
more expensive? As a customer you perhaps have the ability to search the
internet for hours to find the cheapest price at no cost for your own
labour.



I know that part of the tradesman's profit comes from the Sale of
parts but I always thought that they bought parts from suppliers at
trade prices and then billed for them at retail prices.

Thee days trade doesn't always mean a discount - it may just mean they
have 30 days to pay.Â* Just turn up at Screwfix, Toolstation, Wickes and
even B&Q early morning and see how many people in white vans buying the
same goods as you can buy.




even screwfix have a 'trade only' grotto now.

On 03/10/2020 20:21, Andrew wrote:

even screwfix have a 'trade only' grotto now.

Not at my local Screwfix. Customers may be trade or individuals but all
get served at the same counters.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199Â* Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.



There's a difference between the costs of goods in wholesalers and the
prices in supermarkets as well. Something has to pay for the last mile,
promotions, staff and buildings.

--
Adrian C

In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 02/10/2020 19:23, Chris B wrote:
I have just received an estimate from a tradesman (based on photographs
to save him the time of a visit) which includes £199 Plus VAT for
listed parts.


The very same parts are available from suppliers listed on amazon (not
amazon itself) for £96.98 Including VAT and delivery.



There's a difference between the costs of goods in wholesalers and the
prices in supermarkets as well. Something has to pay for the last mile,
promotions, staff and buildings.

last week I visteed Screwfix and B&Q, in that order. Screwfix had masks 10
for £5. The same package was in B&Q - £6.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle