On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 15:00:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil. All you need is a fan, and you get a little cooling
for your 20-40 watts. With other basic heat preventing measures such
as shading this can keep a house pleasant at trivial energy use &
cost.

The UK really is not hot enough to need refrigeration ac.

In your humble opinion obviously...

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed
extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a
heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops. It no longer
heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be simpler, and
no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

So is that what you meant by "I use a crude swamp cooling setup here
when it hits heatwave"?

I also use differential thermostat controlled ventilation - that's my
main go-to. When it's cooler outside, ventilation runs. It cools the
masonry over a period of hours, leaving the house cooler through the
next day. 20-40 watts cools by a varying amount upto 6C. In the first
property I did this, due to poor building design it gave over 10C
improvement.

After this year's heatwave I think it's time to consider installing
some sort of automated & permanent swamp cooling. The variations &
permutations are numerous.

And yes, swamp cooling is effective.

But not for doing many of the things that people buy AC for.

More to the point, in the form that many people experience swamp coolers
(i.e. COTS evaporative coolers, wet towels draped over fans etc), they
don't work very well in our climate.

Installing ac in the UK has such
downsides that really it just shows a lack of comprehension of the
situation.

And yet so many people do it. Perhaps they have heat generating
equipment that can't be turned off. Perhaps they have medical conditions
that put them at risk in high temperatures or high humidities, perhaps
they want better productivity from their workforce and have found that
keeping them cool and comfortable pays for itself many times over.

There are many houses designed or retofitted to stay cool in hot climates without ac. The technology is known. AC is not required even in hotter places than here. People use it as a knee jerk reaction to excess heat due to a complete failure to understand the available technologies or even quite basic aspects of the situation. Even my very simple differential thermostat system is beyond the grasp of most, why I don't know but it certainly is. They think that any time the fan isn't running it's not cooling, the fan should be on!


NT

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 15:15:00 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/08/2020 10:07, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 04:20:24 +0100, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

Yup, as I predicted then, he's just being dissentious (as usual after
you pin him down on one of his crazy statements). ;-(

And I suspect 'just solder it' (Mobility Scooter thread) is just as
much BS as this 'crude swamp cooler' thing.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And look at all the swerving about with pipes though mud, water
on the roof and other things he's thought up but not implemented. ;-)

Tis the thing about armchair experts, they can make all kinds of
statements to appear to be worldly wise and possessors of great
knowledge and experience, that which would be within reach of the common
man, if only he were not so blinkered or narrow minded.

Of course the problem comes when you try to drill into the detail, and
find there is no actual depth of understanding, and much of the
"experience" is actually either someone else's (several times removed)
or just complete fantasy.

That's the point at which they normally switch tactic to insulting the
inquisitor, to try and divert from the actual discussion.

The thing about idiots is they don't go & learn about a subject, but are happy to comment on it anyway & insist they are right. There's been no lack of that in this group of late. It takes nothing to go search on google or youtube for the various cooling methods in use.

I've been playing with non-ac cooling since I was a teenager. Ac certainly works, but it's kinda silly when you can get the same result at a tiny fraction the cost.


NT

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 15:19:57 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 23:25, Chris Green wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Except that desert coolers work well in very dry air which is
improved for most people by being made more humid. We lived in Riyadh
in the 1970s and desert coolers made life much more comfortable by
both cooling *and* humidifying the air.

Yup sure, in hot arid climates, evaporative coolers are a win, win
(assuming there is not a shortage of water).

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.
Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.
Differential thermostatic ventilation does
Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.
Using cool from the soil under the house works well.
Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention. Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.


NT

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 15:24:06 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:33, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:11:47 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

They do. But in comfort terms this isn't much different to lowering the temp. Either works.

Lowering the temp will help, but if its offset by an increase in RH you
don't get much gain in comfort.

That can certainly happen in a hypothetical setup. I've not met practical evaporative coolers that are that bad.

If you've tried using commercial swamp coolers you'll have noticed that despite the RH increase compromising the feeling of cool, they do still increase the feeling of coolness.


NT

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:41:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

So why reference something we weren't talking about?

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations

But not all of them refereed to a 'crude' then?


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

Because *someone* was BS'ing and has tried to weasel out of it.

Them: They say there was a car that can do 1000 mpg.

You: My car can easily do that.

Them: Oh yes, what car is that?

You: (Some BS excuse to try to buy time)

Them: Eh?

You: Yes, the model car I designed (but never actually built).

Them: Ah.

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

And yet so many people do it. Perhaps they have heat generating
equipment that can't be turned off. Perhaps they have medical conditions
that put them at risk in high temperatures or high humidities, perhaps
they want better productivity from their workforce and have found that
keeping them cool and comfortable pays for itself many times over.

There are many houses designed or retofitted to stay cool in hot climates without ac.

Of course, mostly because they don't have electricity.

The technology is known.

Yes, see above.

AC is not required even in hotter places than here.

But is generally fitted, if they can afford it and have the
electricity to run it.

People use it as a knee jerk reaction to excess heat due to a complete failure to understand the available technologies or even quite basic aspects of the situation.

And when it hot and they want to be cool.

Even my very simple differential thermostat system is beyond the grasp of most,

I'm sure it is ... and why you haven't made millions from it.

why I don't know

No, I wonder why!

but it certainly is.

So you say.

They think that any time the fan isn't running it's not cooling, the fan should be on!

No, idiots!

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

On 25/08/2020 19:52:35, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 15:15:00 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/08/2020 10:07, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 04:20:24 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx
wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i
m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp
cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then
thinks it's going to be a solution everywhere,
like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with
our humidity), I'm guessing we would all have
them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it
hits heatwave. It works and costs near nothing.
We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real
hard & you don't get significant cooling, the
rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't
make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more
difficult for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper' was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the
way the system works means it does not add water to
the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over
water that enters the room, making the room air moist
don't you understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work
effectively and using heat exchangers, but a "crude
swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation
increases humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be
indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to
separate the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have
an air to air heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least
air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest
considering is passing (incoming or recirculated) air through
a pipe covered with shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat
exchanger.

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg



Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

Yup, as I predicted then, he's just being dissentious (as usual
after you pin him down on one of his crazy statements). ;-(

And I suspect 'just solder it' (Mobility Scooter thread) is just
as much BS as this 'crude swamp cooler' thing.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And look at all the swerving about with pipes though mud,
water on the roof and other things he's thought up but not
implemented. ;-)

Tis the thing about armchair experts, they can make all kinds of
statements to appear to be worldly wise and possessors of great
knowledge and experience, that which would be within reach of the
common man, if only he were not so blinkered or narrow minded.

Of course the problem comes when you try to drill into the detail,
and find there is no actual depth of understanding, and much of
the "experience" is actually either someone else's (several times
removed) or just complete fantasy.

That's the point at which they normally switch tactic to insulting
the inquisitor, to try and divert from the actual discussion.

The thing about idiots is they don't go & learn about a subject, but
are happy to comment on it anyway & insist they are right. There's
been no lack of that in this group of late. It takes nothing to go
search on google or youtube for the various cooling methods in use.

Such is very notable self-deprecating statement. Something I thought I
would never hear from you.

You're absolutely right, it takes no time at all to perform a google
search about "crude swamp cooler" using the quotes and get 8 hits! Such
a term can hardly be described as common parlance.

I've been playing with non-ac cooling since I was a teenager. Ac
certainly works, but it's kinda silly when you can get the same
result at a tiny fraction the cost.

Playing? Some of us work in professional fields and know what works and
what doesn't and learnt from their early work as a teenager.

Name a single company in the UK that offers "crude swamp cooler"
otherwise you're living in a silly fantasy land.

However I can accept you've played abroad on "crude swamp cooler"s in
some developing country that is both hot and dry.

On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

On 25/08/2020 19:48:52, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 15:00:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then
thinks it's going to be a solution everywhere, like
'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by
now and we obviously don't, well, unless you
actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did
have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you
don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer
it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more
difficult for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper' was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way
the system works means it does not add water to the
indoor air, and does not make the place damper. Are you
able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water
that enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively
and using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler"
doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation
increases humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to
separate the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an
air to air heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air
path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering
is passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered
with shaded wet soil. All you need is a fan, and you get a little
cooling for your 20-40 watts. With other basic heat preventing
measures such as shading this can keep a house pleasant at
trivial energy use & cost.

The UK really is not hot enough to need refrigeration ac.

In your humble opinion obviously...

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat
roofed extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven
in a heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops. It
no longer heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be
simpler, and no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

So is that what you meant by "I use a crude swamp cooling setup
here when it hits heatwave"?

I also use differential thermostat controlled ventilation -
that's my main go-to. When it's cooler outside, ventilation runs.
It cools the masonry over a period of hours, leaving the house
cooler through the next day. 20-40 watts cools by a varying
amount upto 6C. In the first property I did this, due to poor
building design it gave over 10C improvement.

After this year's heatwave I think it's time to consider
installing some sort of automated & permanent swamp cooling. The
variations & permutations are numerous.

And yes, swamp cooling is effective.

But not for doing many of the things that people buy AC for.

More to the point, in the form that many people experience swamp
coolers (i.e. COTS evaporative coolers, wet towels draped over fans
etc), they don't work very well in our climate.

Installing ac in the UK has such downsides that really it just
shows a lack of comprehension of the situation.

And yet so many people do it. Perhaps they have heat generating
equipment that can't be turned off. Perhaps they have medical
conditions that put them at risk in high temperatures or high
humidities, perhaps they want better productivity from their
workforce and have found that keeping them cool and comfortable
pays for itself many times over.

There are many houses designed or retofitted to stay cool in hot
climates without ac. The technology is known. AC is not required even
in hotter places than here.

Yes, typically in places where night temperatures drop close to zero. In
all hot humid places traditional AC is used.

People use it as a knee jerk reaction to excess heat due to a
complete failure to understand the available technologies or even
quite basic aspects of the situation. Even my very simple
differential thermostat system is beyond the grasp of most, why I
don't know but it certainly is.

I'm going to bite, how does having a differential thermostat assist in
cooling a room?

They think that any time the fan isn't running it's not cooling, the
fan should be on!

That might be because the passing of air, even if hot and close to
saturation, can create a real cooling effect on skin. Fans tend to
assist this and why I use a fan in my office on very hot days.

You can remain in your seemingly constant state of denial.

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 20:57:12 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

thank you for confirming that all you want to do is waste people's time.

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 23:54:44 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:52:35, tabbypurr wrote:

The thing about idiots is they don't go & learn about a subject, but
are happy to comment on it anyway & insist they are right. There's
been no lack of that in this group of late. It takes nothing to go
search on google or youtube for the various cooling methods in use.

Such is very notable self-deprecating statement. Something I thought I
would never hear from you.

You're absolutely right, it takes no time at all to perform a google
search about "crude swamp cooler" using the quotes and get 8 hits! Such
a term can hardly be described as common parlance.

I've been playing with non-ac cooling since I was a teenager. Ac
certainly works, but it's kinda silly when you can get the same
result at a tiny fraction the cost.

Playing? Some of us work in professional fields and know what works and
what doesn't and learnt from their early work as a teenager.

The pros in this country use ac. It works, but is very inefficient. They don't care, they're making money, the more they charge the more they make. That some semm too naive to notice that is weird.


Name a single company in the UK that offers "crude swamp cooler"
otherwise you're living in a silly fantasy land.

However I can accept you've played abroad on "crude swamp cooler"s in
some developing country that is both hot and dry.

no in this country silly.
Why do you comment & judge on things you know jack about? Nah, I don't care.


NT

On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:01:27 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

Too much stupid bs for me.

On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:07:22 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:48:52, tabbypurr wrote:

There are many houses designed or retofitted to stay cool in hot
climates without ac. The technology is known. AC is not required even
in hotter places than here.

Yes, typically in places where night temperatures drop close to zero.

It's not required in a much wider range of places than that.

In
all hot humid places traditional AC is used.

ac is used in every climate where cooling is wanted. There is an increasing minority that are into finding ways to obtain cooling without the power & money guzzle of ac, and it's a successful endeavour. Of course as you're convinced otherwise you haven't gone & found out about it.


People use it as a knee jerk reaction to excess heat due to a
complete failure to understand the available technologies or even
quite basic aspects of the situation. Even my very simple
differential thermostat system is beyond the grasp of most, why I
don't know but it certainly is.

I'm going to bite, how does having a differential thermostat assist in
cooling a room?

Masonry has thermal capacity.
Outdoor temp cycles are max in afternoon, minimum before dawn.
Run a ventilation fan when outdoors is cooler than indoors, and the masonry is slowly cooled, resulting in daytime indoors starting from lower temp & climbing ultimately to a lower maximum. Very simple stuff. 20 watts gets me a temp drop of upto 6C. As a youngster I began with much higher power and got more temp drop.


They think that any time the fan isn't running it's not cooling, the
fan should be on!

That might be because the passing of air, even if hot and close to
saturation, can create a real cooling effect on skin. Fans tend to
assist this and why I use a fan in my office on very hot days.

You're confusing 2 different things, bringing in outdoor air & moving the air in the room. They are not the same, and do not do the same 2 things.


You can remain in your seemingly constant state of denial.

Didn't think you'd be sensible for long.

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed & yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff is... well, not being exactly intelligent.


NT

On 27/08/2020 00:42:43, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:01:27 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

Too much stupid bs for me.

The only BS was some idiot saying a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make
indoors any damper".

On 27/08/2020 00:51:04, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:07:22 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:48:52, tabbypurr wrote:

There are many houses designed or retofitted to stay cool in hot
climates without ac. The technology is known. AC is not required
even in hotter places than here.

Yes, typically in places where night temperatures drop close to
zero.

It's not required in a much wider range of places than that.

In all hot humid places traditional AC is used.

ac is used in every climate where cooling is wanted. There is an
increasing minority that are into finding ways to obtain cooling
without the power & money guzzle of ac, and it's a successful
endeavour. Of course as you're convinced otherwise you haven't gone &
found out about it.

Instead of the BS trying citing a reference for such rubbish, on how
"crude swamp coolers" are taking off.

People use it as a knee jerk reaction to excess heat due to a
complete failure to understand the available technologies or
even quite basic aspects of the situation. Even my very simple
differential thermostat system is beyond the grasp of most, why
I don't know but it certainly is.

I'm going to bite, how does having a differential thermostat assist
in cooling a room?

Masonry has thermal capacity. Outdoor temp cycles are max in
afternoon, minimum before dawn. Run a ventilation fan when outdoors
is cooler than indoors, and the masonry is slowly cooled, resulting
in daytime indoors starting from lower temp & climbing ultimately to
a lower maximum. Very simple stuff. 20 watts gets me a temp drop of
upto 6C. As a youngster I began with much higher power and got more
temp drop.


They think that any time the fan isn't running it's not cooling,
the fan should be on!

That might be because the passing of air, even if hot and close to
saturation, can create a real cooling effect on skin. Fans tend to
assist this and why I use a fan in my office on very hot days.

You're confusing 2 different things, bringing in outdoor air & moving
the air in the room. They are not the same, and do not do the same 2
things.

Quite, the movement of air is needed for cooling. Glad we can finally agree.

You can remain in your seemingly constant state of denial.

Didn't think you'd be sensible for long.

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

On 27/08/2020 00:41:35, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 23:54:44 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:52:35, tabbypurr wrote:

The thing about idiots is they don't go & learn about a subject,
but are happy to comment on it anyway & insist they are right.
There's been no lack of that in this group of late. It takes
nothing to go search on google or youtube for the various cooling
methods in use.

Such is very notable self-deprecating statement. Something I
thought I would never hear from you.

You're absolutely right, it takes no time at all to perform a
google search about "crude swamp cooler" using the quotes and get 8
hits! Such a term can hardly be described as common parlance.

I've been playing with non-ac cooling since I was a teenager. Ac
certainly works, but it's kinda silly when you can get the same
result at a tiny fraction the cost.

Playing? Some of us work in professional fields and know what works
and what doesn't and learnt from their early work as a teenager.

The pros in this country use ac. It works, but is very inefficient.
They don't care, they're making money, the more they charge the more
they make. That some semm too naive to notice that is weird.

Because it is very effective and easily controlled. A no-brainer.

Name a single company in the UK that offers "crude swamp cooler"
otherwise you're living in a silly fantasy land.

However I can accept you've played abroad on "crude swamp cooler"s
in some developing country that is both hot and dry.

no in this country silly. Why do you comment & judge on things you
know jack about? Nah, I don't care.

My only comment is to remind you this sub-thread is simply because some
idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

On 27/08/2020 00:38:06, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 20:57:12 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

thank you for confirming that all you want to do is waste people's time.

The person who said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any
damper" is the one wasting everyone's time?

But you're too myopic to see that.

On 21/08/2020 13:57, newshound wrote:
On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:


I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Warm air going up a flue in warm weather (i.e. the brickwork will be
warm too) sounds like it should be OK. You'll be pulling moisture out at
the condensor.

A friends wood burner with a flue pipe in the chimney in a two story
house is difficult to light the first time after being left. The chimney
sweep suggested that it was a common problem in that when left for an
extended length of time the chimney gets cold and possibly the flue was
damp. This creates more of a down draft which on lighting the fire
restricted the upwards air flow. Sure enough on first lighting of the
fire it was almost impossible to get it to draw fiercely and multiple
fire lighters had to be used to get the fire to stay alight. Gradually,
as the fire heated the flue/chimney the fire could be managed with ease.
Subsequent lighting of the fire the next day did not have the same
problems, nor was the use of fire lighters necessary.

I'm not sure that the brickwork would be necessarily warm if the chimney
or flue has been left for any considerable time.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 27/08/2020 00:42, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:01:27 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

Too much stupid bs for me.

Why not post some photos of your swamp cooler, so we can learn from the
master how to do it?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:10:53 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

And that's the thing, as soon as some people make statements like
that, many switch of and are likely to distrust everything else they
say. ;-(

Same with his little outburst re what I (not him?) was doing on a
mobility scooter and his 'just solder it' but as yet, still hasn't
explained what the 'it' was? So, the only outcome you can come to is
that he's not engaged his brain before opening his mouth and has since
seen the error of his ways.

Had it been fixed 'that day' as he boasted it would have been if it
were his job, it would still have stood there unused because of all
the other circumstances (he had no idea about).

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:16:22 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

On 27/08/2020 00:38:06, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 20:57:12 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

thank you for confirming that all you want to do is waste people's time.

The person who said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any
damper" is the one wasting everyone's time?

But you're too myopic to see that.

I seriously think there is something wrong with him (the whole
'tabbypurr' tag makes that pretty likely 'Mad cat man'). ;-)

He reads a series of valid questions, questions several others here
have now raised with him and in most part has only answered with
weasel words and bs and accuses *us* of 'wasting time'?

Myopic indeed.

How much easier would it be to just answer the questions ... if there
were actual answers of course?

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 27 August 2020 01:16:22 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/08/2020 00:38:06, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 20:57:12 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

thank you for confirming that all you want to do is waste people's time.

The person who said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any
damper" is the one wasting everyone's time?

But you're too myopic to see that.

My crude swamp cooler doesn't make indoors any damper. Lots of swamp cooling setups don't, and lots do.


NT

On Thursday, 27 August 2020 10:46:27 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 00:42, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:01:27 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

Too much stupid bs for me.

Why not post some photos of your swamp cooler,

I already described its operation

so we can learn from the
master how to do it?

still being childish eh

On Thursday, 27 August 2020 11:46:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:10:53 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

And that's the thing, as soon as some people make statements like
that, many switch of and are likely to distrust everything else they
say. ;-(

If yo can't work out that swamp cooling can be done without dumping the vapour indoors then
a) you know very little about swamp cooling
b) you're playing the fool


Same with his little outburst re what I (not him?) was doing on a
mobility scooter and his 'just solder it' but as yet, still hasn't
explained what the 'it' was? So, the only outcome you can come to is
that he's not engaged his brain before opening his mouth and has since
seen the error of his ways.

Had it been fixed 'that day' as he boasted it would have been if it
were his job, it would still have stood there unused because of all
the other circumstances (he had no idea about).

Cheers, T i m

So your logical deduction abilities do not work.


NT

On Thursday, 27 August 2020 11:59:34 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:16:22 +0100, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/08/2020 00:38:06, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 20:57:12 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

thank you for confirming that all you want to do is waste people's time.

The person who said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any
damper" is the one wasting everyone's time?

But you're too myopic to see that.

I seriously think there is something wrong with him (the whole
'tabbypurr' tag makes that pretty likely 'Mad cat man'). ;-)

He reads a series of valid questions, questions several others here
have now raised with him and in most part has only answered with
weasel words and bs and accuses *us* of 'wasting time'?

Myopic indeed.

How much easier would it be to just answer the questions ... if there
were actual answers of course?

Cheers, T i m

I don't know which questions you refer to. With all due respect the basic info has been given, if you want to learn about non-ac cooling go watch some youtube videos on it or read some websites. Yes, it takes a little time. I'm not going to replicate all that material for anyone, let alone a fool that isn't interested in learning anything & keeps making childish comments.

You only need have basic consciousness of your surroundings to know that even in the 1800s some houses were built that remained cool in a hot summer. Since then we have gained vastly more knowledge and technology to work with.. If someone seriously thinks it's not possible to cool a house effectively in the UK without ac then I really can not make sense of where their mind is at. And it is not my task to solve whatever their issue is.


NT

On 27/08/2020 16:32:51, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 10:46:27 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 00:42, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:01:27 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

Too much stupid bs for me.

Why not post some photos of your swamp cooler,

I already described its operation

You have, you said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any
damper". And then came up with a system that was certainly not crude.

so we can learn from the
master how to do it?

still being childish eh

The only childish person is one sitting in his armchair claiming to be
an expert saying a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

On 27/08/2020 16:35:19, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 11:46:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:10:53 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

And that's the thing, as soon as some people make statements like
that, many switch of and are likely to distrust everything else they
say. ;-(

If yo can't work out that swamp cooling can be done without dumping the vapour indoors then
a) you know very little about swamp cooling
b) you're playing the fool

You said a "crude swamp cooler". What you were advocating was far more
complex requiring heat exchanges.

Th only fool is one who says a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make
indoors any damper".

On 27/08/2020 16:31:00, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 01:16:22 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/08/2020 00:38:06, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 20:57:12 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.

But enough of it does.

I wonder why we don't see more of it then?

Shading of windows, walls & white stone on flat roofs do.

Again, none of that round here ...

Differential thermostatic ventilation does

Ah, the 'differential thermostatic ventilation', like open / closing
the windows (and curtains) at the right times you mean? No, no one
does that over here for sure. Not seen it in greenhouses either.

Evaporative cooling can contribute nearly all the time, just not on those rare days as we had recently when it's 100% RH AND heatwave hot.

Yes, if you live in a concrete bunker and want a swimming pool on the
roof.

Using cool from the soil under the house works well.

After you have asked the landlord and can afford the insulated hoses
up to the 5th floor?

Insulation & choice of paint colours are also useful.

See above.

Anyone that has not encountered houses that stay cool in summer without ac has either not been out much or not been paying attention.

Or doesn't watch any of the new an innovative designer home programs
that the vast majority can't afford or live in.

Anyone that has not chosen to learn why and what newer technologies exist has simply chosen to not know about it.

Or are realists and don't live in a bunker in a field?

Learning this stuff is easy. Learn or don't, anything else is pointless.

Ah, so because you are *The* font of all information on this you
*think* the rest of us haven't caught up?

John was exactly right and the distraction bs and insults.

So, this 'crude swamp cooler' you were referring to again, how well
did you say it works ... or would work in a standard UK house in the
summer?

Cheers, T i m

thank you for confirming that all you want to do is waste people's time.

The person who said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any
damper" is the one wasting everyone's time?

But you're too myopic to see that.

My crude swamp cooler doesn't make indoors any damper. Lots of swamp cooling setups don't, and lots do.

If it doesn't humidify the air it isn't a "crude swamp cooler".

On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:50:49 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

On 27/08/2020 16:35:19, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 11:46:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:10:53 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

And that's the thing, as soon as some people make statements like
that, many switch of and are likely to distrust everything else they
say. ;-(

If yo can't work out that swamp cooling can be done without dumping the vapour indoors then
a) you know very little about swamp cooling
b) you're playing the fool

You said a "crude swamp cooler". What you were advocating was far more
complex requiring heat exchanges.

Yup, disingenuous at the least.

Th only fool is one who says a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make
indoors any damper".

+1

Cheers, T i m

On 27/08/2020 16:32, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 10:46:27 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 00:42, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 August 2020 00:01:27 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 19:41:07, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 04:20:25 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

I didn't say that above was a crude swamp cooler. Crude swamp cooling is what I use here now.

Remind us, what idiot said a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors
any damper".

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

that is one of many swamp cooling configurations


Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

I see you were confused.

There was no confusion on my part despite your deliberate obfuscation.

It's telling when idiots talk through their arse making statements like
a "crude swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper". And when shown
they were wrong go on to claim they were talking about a more
sophisticated device.

Too much stupid bs for me.

Why not post some photos of your swamp cooler,

I already described its operation

I am confused by your explanation, pictures would help...

so we can learn from the
master how to do it?

still being childish eh

Time to put up or shut up.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 27 August 2020 16:50:49 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/08/2020 16:35:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 11:46:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:10:53 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

And that's the thing, as soon as some people make statements like
that, many switch of and are likely to distrust everything else they
say. ;-(

If yo can't work out that swamp cooling can be done without dumping the vapour indoors then
a) you know very little about swamp cooling
b) you're playing the fool

You said a "crude swamp cooler". What you were advocating was far more
complex requiring heat exchanges.

You're not grown up enough to admit you've hopelessly misunderstood what has been said. I described 2 different evaporative cooling systems and stated clearly what I do here.

On Thursday, 27 August 2020 20:17:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 16:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I already described its operation

I am confused by your explanation, pictures would help...

so we can learn from the
master how to do it?

still being childish eh

Time to put up or shut up.

I have already described what I do here in this thread. It's as basic as it gets.

For the benefit of those unable to read:

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops. It no longer heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be simpler, and no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.


NT

On 29/08/2020 13:30, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 20:17:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 16:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I already described its operation

I am confused by your explanation, pictures would help...

so we can learn from the master how to do it?

still being childish eh

Time to put up or shut up.

I have already described what I do here in this thread. It's as basic
as it gets.

For the benefit of those unable to read:

You will post something that requires reading huh?

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was
raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest
of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper.

Fortunately we can read, and we did read that.

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed
extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a
heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops. It no
longer heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be
simpler, and no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

and that.

However here is the problem, the big stonking steaming turd of a
problem, that has wasted all this time...

What you describe in your second paragraph is in no way shape or form a
"crude swap cooler" or any other type of swamp cooler for that matter.

It does not look like a swamp cooler.

It does not work like a swamp cooler.

All you describe is cooling a flat roof by flooding it with water.
Evaporative cooling hardly comes into it (it will get most of its latest
heat of vaporisation from solar gain directly).

Its not cooling an airflow directly either. Yes it will lower the
internal temperature of the surface, and hence the heat radiated by it,
or coupled to it via convection, but a swamp cooler its not.

So given that your statement:

"I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave" is
blatantly wrong.

(Whether this is down to sloppy terminology, a poor grasp of what swamp
coolers actually are, or how they work, or just a giant porky hand
waving fib I don't know).

I think you owe us an apology... Man enough?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/08/2020 13:30:39, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 20:17:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 16:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I already described its operation

I am confused by your explanation, pictures would help...

so we can learn from the
master how to do it?

still being childish eh

Time to put up or shut up.

I have already described what I do here in this thread. It's as basic as it gets.

For the benefit of those unable to read:

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

But you never explained how a "crude swamp cool" wouldn't "make indoors
any damper". I concede you proposed a "complex swamp cooler" that
incorporated heat exchangers and the like.

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops.

Which is not generally described to be a "swamp cooler". It is immensely
inefficient if the roof has any insulation. I can only assume you have
insufficient insulation, certainly a lot less than you credit, if you
feel the cooling effect is significant.

It no longer heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be simpler, and no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

But not a "crude swamp cooler".

On 29/08/2020 13:25:41, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 16:50:49 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/08/2020 16:35:19, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 11:46:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:10:53 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Ultimately I think anyone that absolutely refuses to go get informed
& yet insists they know better when they don't even know basic stuff
is... well, not being exactly intelligent.

I was hardly informed by someone lacking intelligence saying a "crude
swamp cooler" "doesn't make indoors any damper".

And that's the thing, as soon as some people make statements like
that, many switch of and are likely to distrust everything else they
say. ;-(

If yo can't work out that swamp cooling can be done without dumping the vapour indoors then
a) you know very little about swamp cooling
b) you're playing the fool

You said a "crude swamp cooler". What you were advocating was far more
complex requiring heat exchanges.

You're not grown up enough to admit you've hopelessly misunderstood what has been said.

I have misunderstood nothing when you claim, a "crude swamp cooler"
"doesn't make indoors any damper".

You're not grown up enough to admit this was tripe.

I described 2 different evaporative cooling systems and stated clearly what I do here.


Neither of which can be described as a "crude swamp cooler" that
"doesn't make indoors any damper"."

On Sunday, 30 August 2020 04:04:53 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/08/2020 13:30:39, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 27 August 2020 20:17:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2020 16:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I already described its operation

I am confused by your explanation, pictures would help...

so we can learn from the
master how to do it?

still being childish eh

Time to put up or shut up.

I have already described what I do here in this thread. It's as basic as it gets.

For the benefit of those unable to read:

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

But you never explained how a "crude swamp cool" wouldn't "make indoors
any damper". I concede you proposed a "complex swamp cooler" that
incorporated heat exchangers and the like.

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops.

Which is not generally described to be a "swamp cooler".

There are many ways the swamp cooling principle can be used, and one that is most popular. Of course the above is not the most popular one, it's a cruder approach.

It is immensely
inefficient if the roof has any insulation.

depends how you define efficiency. In terms of action & power required to cool the house, it's good on efficiency, despite most of the cooling effect being lost to the wind.

I can only assume you have
insufficient insulation,

It's plenty for all except the absolute worst heatwave days - on those it's not.


certainly a lot less than you credit,

you're making it up again.


if you feel the cooling effect is significant.

It no longer heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be simpler, and no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

But not a "crude swamp cooler".


NT