I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Warm air going up a flue in warm weather (i.e. the brickwork will be
warm too) sounds like it should be OK. You'll be pulling moisture out at
the condensor.

On 21/08/2020 13:57, newshound wrote:
On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:


I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Warm air going up a flue in warm weather (i.e. the brickwork will be
warm too) sounds like it should be OK. You'll be pulling moisture out at
the condensor.

A friends wood burner with a flue pipe in the chimney in a two story
house is difficult to light the first time after being left. The chimney
sweep suggested that it was a common problem in that when left for an
extended length of time the chimney gets cold and possibly the flue was
damp. This creates more of a down draft which on lighting the fire
restricted the upwards air flow. Sure enough on first lighting of the
fire it was almost impossible to get it to draw fiercely and multiple
fire lighters had to be used to get the fire to stay alight. Gradually,
as the fire heated the flue/chimney the fire could be managed with ease.
Subsequent lighting of the fire the next day did not have the same
problems, nor was the use of fire lighters necessary.

I'm not sure that the brickwork would be necessarily warm if the chimney
or flue has been left for any considerable time.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

Have you considered a pre-gassed DIY split system?

ISTR that :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ir_Conditioner

Cost hundreds rather than thousands.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

The monoblock units usually collect condensate in a tank for periodic
emptying - so the exhaust ought not be that moist.

(the is the usual problem though that they displace room air to
"outside", meaning new warm moist air gets drawn in from elsewhere
unless the monoblock is a two hose design that can draw its supply of
air from outside also.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 21/08/2020 14:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:


Have you considered a pre-gassed DIY split system?

Cost hundreds rather than thousands.

Yes, the problem is I would either have the outside gubbins on the front
of a shop or a monster pipe run to the rear.

On Friday, 21 August 2020 16:38:40 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
Yes, the problem is I would either have the outside gubbins on the front
of a shop or a monster pipe run to the rear.

Could you use the twin duct types, which just need 2 x 4" ducts through the wall.

https://www.cooleasy.co.uk/categorie...o-easy-sf.html

https://www.olimpiasplendid.com/medi...0UNICO_ENG.jpg

One of the problems with an exhaust duct is that you have to replace the exhausted air with fresh air in (and probably rather dirty street-front air). With the twin ducts the interior air is separated from the exterior air, so keeping the shop cleaner.

I don't know if the ducts have to be straight through the wall or if there is sufficient fan capacity to extend them a bit.

In heat pump mode an internal condensate drain is also required.

They still might be above budget though.

Owain

On Friday, 21 August 2020 at 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.
Sounds like someone thinks they've found a mug. I had a Fujitsu 2.5kW unit supplied and installed last week for £800 all included except I cut the 80mm hole in the bedroom outside wall and provided an electric supply via an ip65 isolator switch adjacent to the exterior compressor unit. Oh and he borrowed my aluminium ladder.
Running on full blast it consumes a bit over 700 watts, less as it winds down to approach set temperature. The indoor unit when cooling produces condensate which he piped out and down to a handy surface water gully. If I run it in reverse during the winter to heat the bedroom the outdoor unit will produce condensate which he pipes to the gully as well. The inter unit pipes and cable are enclosed in a plastic duct for appearance sake. Pricing up the bits I reckon he made a couple of hundred for a full days work which I thought very reasonable.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT), Cynic
wrote:

snip


My split unit is 'portable' in that the indoor unit is on wheels like
the classic free-standing hosed air-con but instead of a large
diameter air hose that goes outside there is a sheathed umbilical that
contains all the pipes to the unit fixed to the wall on the outside
(currently going though a hole that was for a balanced flue wall
mounted heater flue).

All the hoses / cables can be disconnected at the main unit end
(without significant loss of gas).

It works very well. If I sheet off the landing it will cool all three
bedrooms from 'very uncomfortable' to 'quite cool' in a few hours (and
keep it there if left on). Then problem is when you walk how the
stairs and feel the heat! ;-(

To the OP. A mate has a shop with a large South facing wall, much of
which is exposed to the sun all day and the front of the shop is all
glass and facing East, so catches the sun all afternoon right until
dusk.

*Luckily* the South facing wall is private alleyway and so he has two
hose-type free standing aircon units that can help keep it bearable
during the hottest days. He can't have a proper split unit because
there are narrow access ways both sides, the pavement in the front and
flats above and behind. A simple shallow grille is ok though.

I think the idea of exhausting the heat up a chimney flue could work
(if not optimal), subject to condensation and back pressure? (As
mentioned elsewhere) It would have the same issue as when venting
though a window (even if sealed) in that you need to get air in the
room from somewhere (ideally, cool).

Cheers, T i m

On 21/08/2020 20:54, Cynic wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 at 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.
Sounds like someone thinks they've found a mug. I had a Fujitsu 2.5kW unit supplied and installed last week for £800

Really, i'll shop around then...

There's aircon already in the building downstairs, here when we moved
in, so we called the people who'd installed that to quote for upstairs.

(I'd optimistically assumed you could tee off the downstairs one)

On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.


NT

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:26:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)


I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave.

Of course you do, that's why you keep recommending them.

It works and costs near nothing.

So why aren't they more popular?

We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.

For your definition of 'good' I'm guessing? How much cooler did it
make the room?

And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Well, if you have a river running though your place already I guess it
wouldn't but how can you evaporate a quantity of water into a sealed
space and it *not* get more humid?

It just the same as daughter drying clothes in her flat by hanging
them on airers in her bedroom and running the de-humidifier and not
having to empty it every day?

If you have any through house ventilation then 'of course' light
humidification or de-humidification wouldn't work, as wouldn't any
effective heating or cooling (other than very localised and not what
most would consider a 'good' solution).

Cheers, T i m

On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending
2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in
the past & very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that
needs venting to outside and where I want it this isn't going
to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too
moist for this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor
so shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to
be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't,
well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was
raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of
the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat to
evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Except that desert coolers work well in very dry air which is
improved for most people by being made more humid. We lived in Riyadh
in the 1970s and desert coolers made life much more comfortable by
both cooling *and* humidifying the air.

--
Chris Green
·

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 23:11:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Yup. It's like when people come back from holiday in hot dry
countries, tell us the temperature there and we equate that to the
discomfort we would suffer (as you say, from the humidity) at similar
temperatures here.

Daughter runs a dehumidifier in her bedroom for drying their clothes
and said that whilst it was about the same temperature in there as the
rest of the flat in this weather, it didn't feel as 'sticky hot'.

I'm guessing the de-humidifier would lower the RH (to below ambient)
and in so doing dry the clothes faster, eg, it (the clothes) wouldn't
make it more humid (although it might rise briefly when she hangs the
washing up and before the DH has kicked in properly)?

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:11:47 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

They do. But in comfort terms this isn't much different to lowering the temp. Either works.


NT

On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

The main point I would make is that the split unit will be more
efficient from a massflow point of view (less air changes in the room
would be necessary) and that in turn makes it more viable as a heater in
the winter

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

It is what I have done as I have removed the flue from my wood burner to
the register and poked the vent up it. No problems so far but I've only
felt the need to use this for a week this year.

As I understand it if it is humid the portable cools air below its dew
point and this can be collected in a tray, otherwise it is evaporated
by the now warmer exhaust. You are worried that this slightly moister
warm air will be cooled by the chimney brickwork and condense causing
problems? In that hot weather the indoor relative humidify here was
about 40% so I doubt that is a problem.

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:48:52 +0100, AJH
wrote:

snip

As I understand it if it is humid the portable cools air below its dew
point and this can be collected in a tray, otherwise it is evaporated
by the now warmer exhaust. You are worried that this slightly moister
warm air will be cooled by the chimney brickwork and condense causing
problems? In that hot weather the indoor relative humidify here was
about 40% so I doubt that is a problem.

And now you have a nice airflow up the chimney, helping to evaporate
any condensate. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:48:52 +0100, AJH
wrote:

snip

As I understand it if it is humid the portable cools air below its dew
point and this can be collected in a tray, otherwise it is evaporated
by the now warmer exhaust. You are worried that this slightly moister
warm air will be cooled by the chimney brickwork and condense causing
problems? In that hot weather the indoor relative humidify here was
about 40% so I doubt that is a problem.

And now you have a nice airflow up the chimney, helping to evaporate
any condensate. ;-)

Plus chimneys are used to condensate, at least in the early stages of
lighting a fire.

Theo