I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Warm air going up a flue in warm weather (i.e. the brickwork will be
warm too) sounds like it should be OK. You'll be pulling moisture out at
the condensor.

On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

Have you considered a pre-gassed DIY split system?

ISTR that :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ir_Conditioner

Cost hundreds rather than thousands.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

The monoblock units usually collect condensate in a tank for periodic
emptying - so the exhaust ought not be that moist.

(the is the usual problem though that they displace room air to
"outside", meaning new warm moist air gets drawn in from elsewhere
unless the monoblock is a two hose design that can draw its supply of
air from outside also.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 21/08/2020 14:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:


Have you considered a pre-gassed DIY split system?

Cost hundreds rather than thousands.

Yes, the problem is I would either have the outside gubbins on the front
of a shop or a monster pipe run to the rear.

On Friday, 21 August 2020 16:38:40 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
Yes, the problem is I would either have the outside gubbins on the front
of a shop or a monster pipe run to the rear.

Could you use the twin duct types, which just need 2 x 4" ducts through the wall.

https://www.cooleasy.co.uk/categorie...o-easy-sf.html

https://www.olimpiasplendid.com/medi...0UNICO_ENG.jpg

One of the problems with an exhaust duct is that you have to replace the exhausted air with fresh air in (and probably rather dirty street-front air). With the twin ducts the interior air is separated from the exterior air, so keeping the shop cleaner.

I don't know if the ducts have to be straight through the wall or if there is sufficient fan capacity to extend them a bit.

In heat pump mode an internal condensate drain is also required.

They still might be above budget though.

Owain

On Friday, 21 August 2020 at 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.
Sounds like someone thinks they've found a mug. I had a Fujitsu 2.5kW unit supplied and installed last week for £800 all included except I cut the 80mm hole in the bedroom outside wall and provided an electric supply via an ip65 isolator switch adjacent to the exterior compressor unit. Oh and he borrowed my aluminium ladder.
Running on full blast it consumes a bit over 700 watts, less as it winds down to approach set temperature. The indoor unit when cooling produces condensate which he piped out and down to a handy surface water gully. If I run it in reverse during the winter to heat the bedroom the outdoor unit will produce condensate which he pipes to the gully as well. The inter unit pipes and cable are enclosed in a plastic duct for appearance sake. Pricing up the bits I reckon he made a couple of hundred for a full days work which I thought very reasonable.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT), Cynic
wrote:

snip


My split unit is 'portable' in that the indoor unit is on wheels like
the classic free-standing hosed air-con but instead of a large
diameter air hose that goes outside there is a sheathed umbilical that
contains all the pipes to the unit fixed to the wall on the outside
(currently going though a hole that was for a balanced flue wall
mounted heater flue).

All the hoses / cables can be disconnected at the main unit end
(without significant loss of gas).

It works very well. If I sheet off the landing it will cool all three
bedrooms from 'very uncomfortable' to 'quite cool' in a few hours (and
keep it there if left on). Then problem is when you walk how the
stairs and feel the heat! ;-(

To the OP. A mate has a shop with a large South facing wall, much of
which is exposed to the sun all day and the front of the shop is all
glass and facing East, so catches the sun all afternoon right until
dusk.

*Luckily* the South facing wall is private alleyway and so he has two
hose-type free standing aircon units that can help keep it bearable
during the hottest days. He can't have a proper split unit because
there are narrow access ways both sides, the pavement in the front and
flats above and behind. A simple shallow grille is ok though.

I think the idea of exhausting the heat up a chimney flue could work
(if not optimal), subject to condensation and back pressure? (As
mentioned elsewhere) It would have the same issue as when venting
though a window (even if sealed) in that you need to get air in the
room from somewhere (ideally, cool).

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 21/08/2020 20:54, Cynic wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 at 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.
Sounds like someone thinks they've found a mug. I had a Fujitsu 2.5kW unit supplied and installed last week for £800

Really, i'll shop around then...

There's aircon already in the building downstairs, here when we moved
in, so we called the people who'd installed that to quote for upstairs.

(I'd optimistically assumed you could tee off the downstairs one)

On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.


NT

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:26:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)


I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave.

Of course you do, that's why you keep recommending them.

It works and costs near nothing.

So why aren't they more popular?

We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.

For your definition of 'good' I'm guessing? How much cooler did it
make the room?

And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Well, if you have a river running though your place already I guess it
wouldn't but how can you evaporate a quantity of water into a sealed
space and it *not* get more humid?

It just the same as daughter drying clothes in her flat by hanging
them on airers in her bedroom and running the de-humidifier and not
having to empty it every day?

If you have any through house ventilation then 'of course' light
humidification or de-humidification wouldn't work, as wouldn't any
effective heating or cooling (other than very localised and not what
most would consider a 'good' solution).

Cheers, T i m

On 21/08/2020 12:43, R D S wrote:
I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

The main point I would make is that the split unit will be more
efficient from a massflow point of view (less air changes in the room
would be necessary) and that in turn makes it more viable as a heater in
the winter

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

It is what I have done as I have removed the flue from my wood burner to
the register and poked the vent up it. No problems so far but I've only
felt the need to use this for a week this year.

As I understand it if it is humid the portable cools air below its dew
point and this can be collected in a tray, otherwise it is evaporated
by the now warmer exhaust. You are worried that this slightly moister
warm air will be cooled by the chimney brickwork and condense causing
problems? In that hot weather the indoor relative humidify here was
about 40% so I doubt that is a problem.

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:48:52 +0100, AJH
wrote:

snip

As I understand it if it is humid the portable cools air below its dew
point and this can be collected in a tray, otherwise it is evaporated
by the now warmer exhaust. You are worried that this slightly moister
warm air will be cooled by the chimney brickwork and condense causing
problems? In that hot weather the indoor relative humidify here was
about 40% so I doubt that is a problem.

And now you have a nice airflow up the chimney, helping to evaporate
any condensate. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending
2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in
the past & very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that
needs venting to outside and where I want it this isn't going
to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too
moist for this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor
so shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to
be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't,
well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was
raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of
the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat to
evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:48:52 +0100, AJH
wrote:

snip

As I understand it if it is humid the portable cools air below its dew
point and this can be collected in a tray, otherwise it is evaporated
by the now warmer exhaust. You are worried that this slightly moister
warm air will be cooled by the chimney brickwork and condense causing
problems? In that hot weather the indoor relative humidify here was
about 40% so I doubt that is a problem.

And now you have a nice airflow up the chimney, helping to evaporate
any condensate. ;-)

Plus chimneys are used to condensate, at least in the early stages of
lighting a fire.

Theo

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 16:51:46 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't,
well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)


I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was
raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of
the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat to
evaporate.

And that evaporated moisture has to go somewhere so unless you also
have some heat exchangers on the house ventilation, you are going to
lose 50% of your cold as you vent the humidity.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Yes, locally, like the outdoor fan my mate bought back from The States
that puts a *very* fine mist of water into the exit airflow to provide
a cooling effect. To get any benefit thought you really have to sit in
the airflow.

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 23 August 2020 10:30:18 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:26:37 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)


I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave.

Of course you do, that's why you keep recommending them.

It works and costs near nothing.

So why aren't they more popular?

We did have 2 or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.

For your definition of 'good' I'm guessing? How much cooler did it
make the room?

And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Well, if you have a river running though your place already I guess it
wouldn't but how can you evaporate a quantity of water into a sealed
space and it *not* get more humid?

It just the same as daughter drying clothes in her flat by hanging
them on airers in her bedroom and running the de-humidifier and not
having to empty it every day?

If you have any through house ventilation then 'of course' light
humidification or de-humidification wouldn't work, as wouldn't any
effective heating or cooling (other than very localised and not what
most would consider a 'good' solution).

Cheers, T i m

Are you actually trying to be a moron?

On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to
be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't,
well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it was
raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the rest of
the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat to
evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that yet?

Mind boggling.


NT

On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going
to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity),
I'm guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously
don't, well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it
was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the
rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat
to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond
you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does
not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that enters
the room, making the room air moist don't you understand.

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and using
heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't, and by the very
nature of reliance of evaporation increases humidity.

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going
to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity),
I'm guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously
don't, well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it
was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the
rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat
to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond
you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does
not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that enters
the room, making the room air moist don't you understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and using
heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very
nature of reliance of evaporation increases humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot


NT

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 02:32:38 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond
you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does
not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that enters
the room, making the room air moist don't you understand.

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and using
heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't, and by the very
nature of reliance of evaporation increases humidity.

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?


It's like wrestling a pig mate. ;-(

He makes a statement, shoots himself in the foot, then tries to
justify himself with BS. ;-(

We have seen it here over and over ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 24 August 2020 10:29:30 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 02:32:38 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond
you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does
not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that enters
the room, making the room air moist don't you understand.

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and using
heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't, and by the very
nature of reliance of evaporation increases humidity.

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?


It's like wrestling a pig mate. ;-(

He makes a statement, shoots himself in the foot, then tries to
justify himself with BS. ;-(

We have seen it here over and over ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Ah. So you have zero interest in reality. Mkay.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:10:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

He makes a statement, shoots himself in the foot, then tries to
justify himself with BS. ;-(

We have seen it here over and over ... ;-(


Ah. So you have zero interest in reality. Mkay.

I have every interest in reality and keep asking you to explain it
(which would *obviously* make me look silly, if it's as obvious as you
suggest), but it's not 'clever' setting up some bizarre scenario with
yer swamp cooler in an arid outbuilding with a heat exchange between
that and your house, we are talking of the *typical* use of a swamp
cooler as might be considered by 'most people'.

Same with the mobility scooter ... I'm talking about 'connects to the
speed controller' and you, because you think doing it quickly is of
any relevance or interest to me, tell me 'you would have done it by
now' and 'just solder it' but then fail to explain what you would
'just solder', pretending it's obvious.

The 'reality' in both scenarios you *have* shot yourself in the foot
and because of that you are going nowhere.

Just cut the BS and fess up ... or come up with a valid answer(s) /
explanations and we can all move on.

Cheers, T i m

On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/08/2020 02:47, wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going
to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity),
I'm guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously
don't, well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it
was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the
rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat
to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond
you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does
not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that enters
the room, making the room air moist don't you understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and using
heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very
nature of reliance of evaporation increases humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate the
cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air heat
exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Except that desert coolers work well in very dry air which is
improved for most people by being made more humid. We lived in Riyadh
in the 1970s and desert coolers made life much more comfortable by
both cooling *and* humidifying the air.

--
Chris Green
·

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 23:11:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Yup. It's like when people come back from holiday in hot dry
countries, tell us the temperature there and we equate that to the
discomfort we would suffer (as you say, from the humidity) at similar
temperatures here.

Daughter runs a dehumidifier in her bedroom for drying their clothes
and said that whilst it was about the same temperature in there as the
rest of the flat in this weather, it didn't feel as 'sticky hot'.

I'm guessing the de-humidifier would lower the RH (to below ambient)
and in so doing dry the clothes faster, eg, it (the clothes) wouldn't
make it more humid (although it might rise briefly when she hangs the
washing up and before the DH has kicked in properly)?

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:11:47 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

They do. But in comfort terms this isn't much different to lowering the temp. Either works.


NT

On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going
to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity),
I'm guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously
don't, well, unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits heatwave. It
works and costs near nothing. We did have 2 or 3 days when it
was raining real hard & you don't get significant cooling, the
rest of the summer it's good. And no, it doesn't make indoors any
damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult for sweat
to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper' was beyond
you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system works means it does
not add water to the indoor air, and does not make the place damper.
Are you able to comprehend that yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that enters
the room, making the room air moist don't you understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and using
heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very
nature of reliance of evaporation increases humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate the
cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air heat
exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with shaded wet soil. All you need is a fan, and you get a little cooling for your 20-40 watts. With other basic heat preventing measures such as shading this can keep a house pleasant at trivial energy use & cost. The UK really is not hot enough to need refrigeration ac.

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops. It no longer heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be simpler, and no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

I also use differential thermostat controlled ventilation - that's my main go-to. When it's cooler outside, ventilation runs. It cools the masonry over a period of hours, leaving the house cooler through the next day. 20-40 watts cools by a varying amount upto 6C. In the first property I did this, due to poor building design it gave over 10C improvement.

After this year's heatwave I think it's time to consider installing some sort of automated & permanent swamp cooling. The variations & permutations are numerous.

And yes, swamp cooling is effective. Installing ac in the UK has such downsides that really it just shows a lack of comprehension of the situation. It's a bit like getting a car just to go 10 yards.


NT

On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 04:20:24 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

Yup, as I predicted then, he's just being dissentious (as usual after
you pin him down on one of his crazy statements). ;-(

And I suspect 'just solder it' (Mobility Scooter thread) is just as
much BS as this 'crude swamp cooler' thing.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And look at all the swerving about with pipes though mud, water
on the roof and other things he's thought up but not implemented. ;-)

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 23:25:13 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Except that desert coolers work well in very dry air which is
improved for most people by being made more humid. We lived in Riyadh
in the 1970s and desert coolers made life much more comfortable by
both cooling *and* humidifying the air.

Yes, 'there would be a 'comfort window' of both humidity and
temperature (and direct / indirect heat from the sun, wind chill
factor / psychological impact of moving air etc) so therefore where a
'swamp cooler' would both work and where the side effects that would
be negative here be an advantage.

When we were at the Eden Project there was a little wooden shed with
aircon in it for people to 'chill out' if they were overcome. I
believe it was in the Tropical (not arid) Biome. e.g I don't think
people weren't suffering from just being too hot.

Cheers, T i m

On 25/08/2020 01:47, wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil. All you need is a fan, and you get a little cooling
for your 20-40 watts. With other basic heat preventing measures such
as shading this can keep a house pleasant at trivial energy use &
cost.

The UK really is not hot enough to need refrigeration ac.

In your humble opinion obviously...

What I do here (in heatwaves only) is far cruder. The flat roofed
extension, despite being fully insulated, is like an oven in a
heatwave. Flood the roof with water & that effect stops. It no longer
heats some of the rest of the house. It could hardly be simpler, and
no, no water vapour is added to indoor air.

So is that what you meant by "I use a crude swamp cooling setup here
when it hits heatwave"?

I also use differential thermostat controlled ventilation - that's my
main go-to. When it's cooler outside, ventilation runs. It cools the
masonry over a period of hours, leaving the house cooler through the
next day. 20-40 watts cools by a varying amount upto 6C. In the first
property I did this, due to poor building design it gave over 10C
improvement.

After this year's heatwave I think it's time to consider installing
some sort of automated & permanent swamp cooling. The variations &
permutations are numerous.

And yes, swamp cooling is effective.

But not for doing many of the things that people buy AC for.

More to the point, in the form that many people experience swamp coolers
(i.e. COTS evaporative coolers, wet towels draped over fans etc), they
don't work very well in our climate.

Installing ac in the UK has such
downsides that really it just shows a lack of comprehension of the
situation.

And yet so many people do it. Perhaps they have heat generating
equipment that can't be turned off. Perhaps they have medical conditions
that put them at risk in high temperatures or high humidities, perhaps
they want better productivity from their workforce and have found that
keeping them cool and comfortable pays for itself many times over.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/08/2020 10:07, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 04:20:24 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

On 25/08/2020 01:47:19, wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:16:30 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 02:32:40 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/08/2020 02:02:46, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 August 2020 16:51:48 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 22/08/2020 23:26:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 11:58:39 UTC+1, T i m
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks
it's going to be a solution everywhere, like 'WD40'.
;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our
humidity), I'm guessing we would all have them by now
and we obviously don't, well, unless you actually
wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I use a crude swamp cooling setup here when it hits
heatwave. It works and costs near nothing. We did have 2
or 3 days when it was raining real hard & you don't get
significant cooling, the rest of the summer it's good.
And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper.

Yes it does.

The humidity increases, actually making it more difficult
for sweat to evaporate.

On paper, yes the temperature has dropped.

Which part of 'And no, it doesn't make indoors any damper'
was beyond you? Lemme give you a hint: the way the system
works means it does not add water to the indoor air, and does
not make the place damper. Are you able to comprehend that
yet?

What part of a "crude swamp cooler" passing air over water that
enters the room, making the room air moist don't you
understand.

I didn't say the water vapour entered the room

Yes there are evaporative coolers that can work effectively and
using heat exchangers, but a "crude swamp cooler" doesn't,

bzzt, wrong answer

and by the very nature of reliance of evaporation increases
humidity.

somewhere yes, where is controllable. It need not be indoors

Or do you think the water vapour magically disappears?

Get back when you're willing to stop being an idiot

So out of interest how does your swamp cooler manage to separate
the cooled air from the humified air? Does it have an air to air
heat exchanger and secondary fan (or at least air path)?

If one were to install something, what I'd suggest considering is
passing (incoming or recirculated) air through a pipe covered with
shaded wet soil.

So not a "crude swamp cooler", but one incorporating a heat exchanger.

This is what most would call a "crude swamp cooler".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapor..._annotated.svg

Perhaps best get your terminology correct or explain things with
complete sentences in English .

Yup, as I predicted then, he's just being dissentious (as usual after
you pin him down on one of his crazy statements). ;-(

And I suspect 'just solder it' (Mobility Scooter thread) is just as
much BS as this 'crude swamp cooler' thing.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And look at all the swerving about with pipes though mud, water
on the roof and other things he's thought up but not implemented. ;-)

Tis the thing about armchair experts, they can make all kinds of
statements to appear to be worldly wise and possessors of great
knowledge and experience, that which would be within reach of the common
man, if only he were not so blinkered or narrow minded.

Of course the problem comes when you try to drill into the detail, and
find there is no actual depth of understanding, and much of the
"experience" is actually either someone else's (several times removed)
or just complete fantasy.

That's the point at which they normally switch tactic to insulting the
inquisitor, to try and divert from the actual discussion.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/08/2020 23:25, Chris Green wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/08/2020 20:55, wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Except that desert coolers work well in very dry air which is
improved for most people by being made more humid. We lived in Riyadh
in the 1970s and desert coolers made life much more comfortable by
both cooling *and* humidifying the air.

Yup sure, in hot arid climates, evaporative coolers are a win, win
(assuming there is not a shortage of water).

Its also common for many traditional buildings to take advantage of the
situation with evaporation pools, large roof overhangs, central
quadrangles with planted vegetation etc. There is a whole art and
science to passive cooling. Even the traditional earthenware jug will
cool water effectively in that kind of climate.

Alas much of this does not translate well to soggy old England.





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/08/2020 23:51, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 23:11:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

Yup. It's like when people come back from holiday in hot dry
countries, tell us the temperature there and we equate that to the
discomfort we would suffer (as you say, from the humidity) at similar
temperatures here.

Daughter runs a dehumidifier in her bedroom for drying their clothes
and said that whilst it was about the same temperature in there as the
rest of the flat in this weather, it didn't feel as 'sticky hot'.

I'm guessing the de-humidifier would lower the RH (to below ambient)
and in so doing dry the clothes faster, eg, it (the clothes) wouldn't
make it more humid (although it might rise briefly when she hangs the
washing up and before the DH has kicked in properly)?

It also makes the bodies own temperature control mechanism's work that
much more effectively - sweat can evaporate more easily, and cool you
down, rather than just making you clothes feel more "clingy".


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 25/08/2020 01:33, wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 23:11:47 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/08/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:46:34 +0100, newshound
wrote:
On 21/08/2020 20:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 August 2020 12:43:45 UTC+1, R D S wrote:

I've had a quote for 'proper' air con, i'm not spending 2.5k.

A portable one would be satisfactory (had one elsewhere in the past &
very pleased with it) but there's a pipe that needs venting to outside
and where I want it this isn't going to be easy.

I've a fireplace at my disposal, would the vented air be too moist for
this to be a sensible option?

Opinions?

I suppose I could get a flue fitted, it's on the first floor so
shouldn't cost a fortune.

Why use ac when you could use a swamp cooler?

UK weather?

It's as if someone has heard a name and then thinks it's going to be a
solution everywhere, like 'WD40'. ;-)

If 'swamp coolers' actually worked here (with our humidity), I'm
guessing we would all have them by now and we obviously don't, well,
unless you actually wanted a humidifier. ;-)

Especially as one of the great joys of proper AC is the
dehumidification. Even without a temperature drop they would make the
place feel much more comfortable.

They do. But in comfort terms this isn't much different to lowering the temp. Either works.

Lowering the temp will help, but if its offset by an increase in RH you
don't get much gain in comfort.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:15:00 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

p.s. And look at all the swerving about with pipes though mud, water
on the roof and other things he's thought up but not implemented. ;-)

Tis the thing about armchair experts, they can make all kinds of
statements to appear to be worldly wise and possessors of great
knowledge and experience, that which would be within reach of the common
man, if only he were not so blinkered or narrow minded.

The thing is, some here do seem to 'blow hot and cold', affected by
the phases of the moon ... or their meds / week / life possibly?

I work on the basis that if I know I say, if not I'll ask and if I can
help I'll try and that we are all 'mates' here (in the support of the
common 'd-i-y' goal). I know some have their own personal problems but
that's the case in any social group.

Of course the problem comes when you try to drill into the detail, and
find there is no actual depth of understanding, and much of the
"experience" is actually either someone else's (several times removed)
or just complete fantasy.

This was something daughter was reflecting (and she's now
appreciating) when we were out on a long dog walk the other day ...
that as she's got older and not only looking after herself, but her
half sisters daughter, just how useless many people are and how much
BS they try to give her ... something she's never heard from me.
AFASC, I either know something or I don't and I'll tell her so.
However, even if I then give her my 'best guess' it's often reasonably
close.

That's the point at which they normally switch tactic to insulting the
inquisitor, to try and divert from the actual discussion.

Classic response, especially when you raise any issue which means
people might have to question their own ethics (slavery, BLM, eating
animals, inc fish, or is it mostly our own plastic waste these days):
;-(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Nj...ature=youtu.be

Cheers, T i m