In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Depending on the motor it takes about 200A to start a car for about 5
seconds.

If a reasonable charge current once started is 5 A that needs 200
seconds to replace the charge.

Or about 3 1/2 minutes.

These figures are well within an order of magnitude.

I have a very accurate voltmeter fitted to the old Rover. Alternator on
that is a slightly more modern unit with 100 amp output. Assuming the
battery is reasonably fresh to start with, the voltage, after a cold start
will have dropped back to the normal point after a drive to the shops. Say
a couple of miles of town driving.

and on a cold & frosty morning?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 11/04/2020 15:08, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

....and if the battery is faulty and open circuit???
You will have replaced it already
As being totally ****ing dead

Has anyone ever SEEN a 'totally open circuit' lead acid in their LIVES?
I suppose pigs MIGHT fly...

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa 2\) wrote:
I've often wondered when new cars are made it is obviously months before
they go to a customer, so how do they look after all those batteries?

Not sure they do. I've never bought a new car, but a few just secondhand
with the original battery. And that never has the same life as its
replacement. A car sitting in the showroom etc, new or used, is not good
for the battery.

I got the reverse. The last 3 cars were bought new and the
original battery lasted much longer than the replacements.
I didn’t buy the cheapest available as a replacement. And
the last two cars never did sit in any showroom either.
Both were special order for me. The second last one
with that model very hard to get so I had to accept
the color I could get. The latest one I wanted bright
yellow so that one was a special order for me and
it never sat in any showroom at all. Fresh off the
boat from Korea.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Better to make the negative connection last and make it first.

Should there be an "un" in there somewhere? Or should one "make" be
"break"?

If you cannot connect away from the battery, always try to waft some air
across the battery, to dispel any gas.

Thanks,

Dave Plowman wrote:

Ah - that's why it wouldn't the next time. It's also bad for the engine to
start it just for a short time.

Ah, thanks.

Update:

After seven hours of charging, the LEDs are indicating 3A (down from the
initial 5). I'll let it run another hour and then try the lights test.

On 11/04/2020 16:46, Bert Coules wrote:
Update:

After seven hours of charging, the LEDs are indicating 3A (down from the
initial 5).Â* I'll let it run another hour and then try the lights test.

That shows a reasonable state of charge. I think I have one of those
charger. The end point is one and a dim 2 IIRC....

--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On 11/04/2020 09:53, Bert Coules wrote:
newshound wrote:

The old fashioned transformer sort *usually* had a meter, you can
recognise those because they are always in a pressed steel box with
big ventilation louvres. The modern electronic ones (typically lightly
finned aluminium extrusions as heat sinks) will have electronic
regulation and usually have a coloured light.

Mine is in a plastic casing with no apparent heatsinks, externally at
least. It has six LEDs marked from 1A up to 6.



LEDs, oh a modern one! Sounds like it will do up to 6 amps, should drop
to 1 amp once charged. Might take 24 hours to recharge fully if it is a
big battery and completely flat. Should be charged enough to start in
half a day, but for health of battery I would recharge it fully on the
charger.

As others have said, I'd say safe enough to close bonnet loosely over
cable and try to make sure from cable routing that it is not too
obvious. The battery is probably more valuable than the charger!

Make sure the cable clamps don't touch the bonnet when it is down!

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

That is neither a good, nor bad sign. Corrosion just means there has been
some acid leakage around the terminal post.

I think I'd regard the absence of leaked acid as being a better state of
affairs than its presence.

On 11/04/2020 09:25, Bert Coules wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:

Personally I'd charge the battery up. How long has it been flat for?

I last started the car four days ago.


The battery might be getting a bit old and tired, then, especially as it
is not particularly cold now.

On 10/04/2020 20:05, Martin Brown wrote:
On 10/04/2020 17:20, Bert Coules wrote:
I just discovered that my car's battery is flat.Â* I won't need the car
until around the middle of next week: will it damage the battery at
all to leave it uncharged until then?

Not really. Solar powered battery topup devices with 12W or more peak
capacity are quite useful for seldom used cars.

And are the home rescue services operating at the moment anyway?

Dunno.
What is wrong with a mains powered battery charger or a jump start?



I always used the bump start and relied on the alternator.

--
Adam

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 01:17:38 +1000, John_j, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile asshole's latest troll****

01:17???? ROTFLOL

Is your UNBEARABLE LONELINESS not letting you sleep in again, you clinically
insane 86-year-old senile asshole? LOL

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

"newshound" wrote:

The battery might be getting a bit old and tired, then, especially as it
is not particularly cold now.

It's two years old and still under guarantee, though I don't know if that
would cover the charge draining through lack of use.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Better to make the negative connection last and make it first. It is
also better practice to make/break the negative connection away from
the battery, assuming the battery is connected to the car - connect the
negative of the charger, to the car chassis/engine block or etc.. It
minimises the chance of a spark igniting gas from a battery.

Has anyone ever had this happen on a car? Only time I've known it was in a
battery charging area in a garage, where the hydrogen could be trapped in.
Long before the days of H&S. Today, it would be properly vented. I'd hope.

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

....and if the battery is faulty and open circuit???

So you've got a faulty battery *and* an extremely crappy charger? ;-)

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"newshound" wrote:

Might take 24 hours to recharge fully if it is a big battery and
completely flat. Should be charged enough to start in half a day, but for
health of battery I would recharge it fully on the charger.

How about taking the car for a drive once it's charged enough to start?
Against the regulations, but I could actually buy some groceries and
essentials (gambling that the car would start again once stopped, I
suppose). I would really rather not leave the charger and (especially) the
mains lead out all night, even in my quiet back street.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Depending on the motor it takes about 200A to start a car for about 5
seconds.

If a reasonable charge current once started is 5 A that needs 200
seconds to replace the charge.

Or about 3 1/2 minutes.

These figures are well within an order of magnitude.

I have a very accurate voltmeter fitted to the old Rover. Alternator
on that is a slightly more modern unit with 100 amp output. Assuming
the battery is reasonably fresh to start with, the voltage, after a
cold start will have dropped back to the normal point after a drive to
the shops. Say a couple of miles of town driving.

and on a cold & frosty morning?

Just a few weeks ago before all this started. I'd just fixed the
alternator so was paying special attention. But then I've never has
starting problems with it ever, after the shortest journey I'd ever do.

--
*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/04/2020 15:08, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

....and if the battery is faulty and open circuit???
You will have replaced it already
As being totally ****ing dead

Has anyone ever SEEN a 'totally open circuit' lead acid in their LIVES?
I suppose pigs MIGHT fly...

If it's been left flat for years, possibly. ;-)

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

That is neither a good, nor bad sign. Corrosion just means there has
been some acid leakage around the terminal post.

I think I'd regard the absence of leaked acid as being a better state of
affairs than its presence.

Most modern batteries are semi sealed. They condense back any 'acid' or
acid fumes into the battery rather than let it escape. Hence never needing
topping up. Decent makes have been like this for over 20 years. Many also
have a vent pipe to route any hydrogen away from the engine compartment.
Not that a decent charging system allows it to gas much anyway.

Corroded terminals are really a thing from the distant past.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11/04/2020 17:10, Bert Coules wrote:
"newshound" wrote:

Might take 24 hours to recharge fully if it is a big battery and
completely flat. Should be charged enough to start in half a day, but
for health of battery I would recharge it fully on the charger.

How about taking the car for a drive once it's charged enough to start?
Against the regulations, but I could actually buy some groceries and
essentials (gambling that the car would start again once stopped, I
suppose).Â* I would really rather not leave the charger and (especially)
the mains lead out all night, even in my quiet back street.

You don't have to charge it fully in one go. So how about (a) take the
charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

You don't have to charge it fully in one go. So how about (a) take the
charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

Oh, OK. I didn't realise that would work. Thanks.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Corroded terminals are really a thing from the distant past.

When the battery before the battery before this current one failed, one of
the terminals was very corroded then. This was about ten years ago, I
think.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 10/04/2020 20:05, Martin Brown wrote:
On 10/04/2020 17:20, Bert Coules wrote:
I just discovered that my car's battery is flat. I won't need the car
until around the middle of next week: will it damage the battery at
all to leave it uncharged until then?

Not really. Solar powered battery topup devices with 12W or more peak
capacity are quite useful for seldom used cars.

And are the home rescue services operating at the moment anyway?

Dunno.
What is wrong with a mains powered battery charger or a jump start?



I always used the bump start and relied on the alternator.

Don't buy an auto, then. ;-)

-

--
*We waste time, so you don't have to *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Corroded terminals are really a thing from the distant past.

When the battery before the battery before this current one failed, one
of the terminals was very corroded then. This was about ten years ago,
I think.

I take it you don't have a glance over such things when filling the
windscreen washer?

--
*I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

I take it you don't have a glance over such things when filling the
windscreen washer?

I don't recall exactly when I opened the bonnet before the battery failed,
but if the terminal was corroded on that occasion I certainly didn't notice
it.

Bert Coules laid this down on his screen :
Should there be an "un" in there somewhere? Or should one "make" be "break"?

Yep, well spotted :-)

Dave Plowman (News) formulated on Saturday :
Has anyone ever had this happen on a car? Only time I've known it was in a
battery charging area in a garage, where the hydrogen could be trapped in.
Long before the days of H&S. Today, it would be properly vented. I'd hope.


On a motorbike, yes.

The Natural Philosopher brought next idea :
Has anyone ever SEEN a 'totally open circuit' lead acid in their LIVES?
I suppose pigs MIGHT fly...

Then they fly - I have come across batteries which have been
overcharged to the point of the electroylite being evaporated away.

On 11/04/2020 17:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 10/04/2020 20:05, Martin Brown wrote:
On 10/04/2020 17:20, Bert Coules wrote:
I just discovered that my car's battery is flat. I won't need the car
until around the middle of next week: will it damage the battery at
all to leave it uncharged until then?

Not really. Solar powered battery topup devices with 12W or more peak
capacity are quite useful for seldom used cars.

And are the home rescue services operating at the moment anyway?

Dunno.
What is wrong with a mains powered battery charger or a jump start?



I always used the bump start and relied on the alternator.

Don't buy an auto, then. ;-)


Only girls drive autos.


Easy enough to tow start them at 30MPH

--
Adam

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:05:22 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

How long did you run it for?

Less than a minute. It simply occurred to me to see if it would start.

Ah - that's why it wouldn't the next time. It's also bad for the engine to
start it just for a short time.

A mates Dad started and drove his newish Jag (Mondeo based?) just a
few feet and the next time he tried to start it it wouldn't. I can't
remember what he had to do then, maybe just keep cranking it over?

Cheers, T i m

On 11/04/2020 17:31, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

You don't have to charge it fully in one go.Â* So how about (a) take
the charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

Oh, OK.Â* I didn't realise that would work.Â* Thanks.

Sorry for my tone there. Too little attention to tone and too much to
"is it time for pre-pre-dinner drinks?"

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 11/04/2020 16:03:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/04/2020 15:08, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

....and if the battery is faulty and open circuit???
You will have replaced it already
As being totally ****ing dead

Has anyone ever SEEN a 'totally open circuit' lead acid in their LIVES?
I suppose pigs MIGHT fly...


Yes I have.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

If the battery is knackered, won't that impedance increase? As an
endpoint, imagine if the battery was completely dry - it's open circuit
and so wouldn't accept any current at all, and all the current would be
put into the car electronics.

Would sulphation raise the impedance?

Yes to both. But then that is two faults. An incredibly crappy charger and
a totally knackered battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some weren't as
tolerant as they should be (also that aftermarket radio you got from
China...)

The old chestnut that only China makes rubbish. ;-)

It may be true that if you want to specity and sell cheap rubbish you
get it made in China, but that's only because China is the cheapest
place to make any electronics, from cheap and nasty to top quality.


--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Ah - that's why it wouldn't the next time. It's also bad for the engine to
start it just for a short time.

A mates Dad started and drove his newish Jag (Mondeo based?) just a
few feet and the next time he tried to start it it wouldn't. I can't
remember what he had to do then, maybe just keep cranking it over?

Some versions of Bosch injection were notorious for that. Start the car
cold in the garage, drive it outside, and stop the engine while you locked
up the garage. Wouldn't restart. New plugs needed.

--
*I can see your point, but I still think you're full of ****.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11/04/2020 14:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Depending on the motor it takes about 200A to start a car for about 5
seconds.

If a reasonable charge current once started is 5 A that needs 200
seconds to replace the charge.

Or about 3 1/2 minutes.

These figures are well within an order of magnitude. If you start a car
you should not routinely stop it within 5 minutes if you can avoid it



Have you driven a new car that turns the engine off automatically when
you stop?

Although TBH my A reg Ford Sierra always cut out when I stopped and was
obviously years ahead in design.

--
Adam

On 11/04/2020 17:31, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

You don't have to charge it fully in one go.Â* So how about (a) take
the charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

Oh, OK.Â* I didn't realise that would work.Â* Thanks.

If the car does start I believe it's good practice to rev it knackers
off for 20 minutes at 6am:-)



--
Adam

On 11/04/2020 23:47, Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

If the battery is knackered, won't that impedance increase? As an
endpoint, imagine if the battery was completely dry - it's open circuit
and so wouldn't accept any current at all, and all the current would be
put into the car electronics.

Would sulphation raise the impedance?

Yes to both. But then that is two faults. An incredibly crappy charger and
a totally knackered battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some weren't as
tolerant as they should be (also that aftermarket radio you got from
China...)

The old chestnut that only China makes rubbish. ;-)

It may be true that if you want to specity and sell cheap rubbish you
get it made in China, but that's only because China is the cheapest
place to make any electronics, from cheap and nasty to top quality.


how many Chinese items have you had to trash in the last ten years and
how many Japanese? ...

On 12/04/20 07:12, ARW wrote:
On 11/04/2020 17:31, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

You don't have to charge it fully in one go.Â* So how about (a) take
the charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

Oh, OK.Â* I didn't realise that would work.Â* Thanks.

If the car does start I believe it's good practice to rev it knackers
off for 20 minutes at 6am:-)

Is that a sort of antisocial isolation?

--

Jeff

ARW wrote:
On 11/04/2020 14:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Depending on the motor it takes about 200A to start a car for about 5
seconds.

If a reasonable charge current once started is 5 A that needs 200
seconds to replace the charge.

Or about 3 1/2 minutes.

These figures are well within an order of magnitude. If you start a car
you should not routinely stop it within 5 minutes if you can avoid it



Have you driven a new car that turns the engine off automatically when
you stop?

Although TBH my A reg Ford Sierra always cut out when I stopped and was
obviously years ahead in design.


The engine is supposed to restart again instantly when needed ;-)

--
https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-...forced-labour/

Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

If the battery is knackered, won't that impedance increase? As an
endpoint, imagine if the battery was completely dry - it's open circuit
and so wouldn't accept any current at all, and all the current would be
put into the car electronics.

Would sulphation raise the impedance?

Yes to both. But then that is two faults. An incredibly crappy charger and
a totally knackered battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some weren't as
tolerant as they should be (also that aftermarket radio you got from
China...)

The old chestnut that only China makes rubbish. ;-)

It may be true that if you want to specity and sell cheap rubbish you
get it made in China, but that's only because China is the cheapest
place to make any electronics, from cheap and nasty to top quality.



That is what happens when people exploit others, sending them out to work
long hours while they take the money. Exploitation.

Not unlike racism, when those on selection boards apply special rules to
prevent ethnic groups from getting jobs.

Then you get people who abuse people from one race/ culture, forcing them
to work long hours in menial jobs, almost slave labour. Not uncommon in
domestic situations.



--
https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-...forced-labour/