On 12/04/2020 08:22, Brian Reay wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

If the battery is knackered, won't that impedance increase? As an
endpoint, imagine if the battery was completely dry - it's open circuit
and so wouldn't accept any current at all, and all the current would be
put into the car electronics.

Would sulphation raise the impedance?

Yes to both. But then that is two faults. An incredibly crappy charger and
a totally knackered battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some weren't as
tolerant as they should be (also that aftermarket radio you got from
China...)

The old chestnut that only China makes rubbish. ;-)

It may be true that if you want to specity and sell cheap rubbish you
get it made in China, but that's only because China is the cheapest
place to make any electronics, from cheap and nasty to top quality.



That is what happens when people exploit others, sending them out to work
long hours while they take the money. Exploitation.

Not unlike racism, when those on selection boards apply special rules to
prevent ethnic groups from getting jobs.

Then you get people who abuse people from one race/ culture, forcing them
to work long hours in menial jobs, almost slave labour. Not uncommon in
domestic situations.



the world is a very unfair place......

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 11 Apr 2020 at 18:26:23 BST, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

Bert Coules laid this down on his screen :
Should there be an "un" in there somewhere? Or should one "make" be "break"?

Yep, well spotted :-)

Break the -ve first on disconnection, make it first on reconnection.

For the avoidance of doubt :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

On 12/04/2020 08:22, Brian Reay wrote:
ARW wrote:
On 11/04/2020 14:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Depending on the motor it takes about 200A to start a car for about 5
seconds.

If a reasonable charge current once started is 5 A that needs 200
seconds to replace the charge.

Or about 3 1/2 minutes.

These figures are well within an order of magnitude. If you start a car
you should not routinely stop it within 5 minutes if you can avoid it



Have you driven a new car that turns the engine off automatically when
you stop?

Although TBH my A reg Ford Sierra always cut out when I stopped and was
obviously years ahead in design.


The engine is supposed to restart again instantly when needed ;-)

hate stop start wouldn't have one....old bangers for me...

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 12/04/2020 08:22, Brian Reay wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

If the battery is knackered, won't that impedance increase? As an
endpoint, imagine if the battery was completely dry - it's open circuit
and so wouldn't accept any current at all, and all the current would be
put into the car electronics.

Would sulphation raise the impedance?

Yes to both. But then that is two faults. An incredibly crappy charger and
a totally knackered battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some weren't as
tolerant as they should be (also that aftermarket radio you got from
China...)

The old chestnut that only China makes rubbish. ;-)

It may be true that if you want to specity and sell cheap rubbish you
get it made in China, but that's only because China is the cheapest
place to make any electronics, from cheap and nasty to top quality.



That is what happens when people exploit others, sending them out to work
long hours while they take the money. Exploitation.

Not unlike racism, when those on selection boards apply special rules to
prevent ethnic groups from getting jobs.

Then you get people who abuse people from one race/ culture, forcing them
to work long hours in menial jobs, almost slave labour. Not uncommon in
domestic situations.



the world is a very unfair place......


Some people make it worse.

You read about cases of domestic abuse, often wealthy foreign families who
bring servants and treat them like slaves when they arrive here. The €˜gang
masters of course who treat illegal immigrants like slaves. Husbands who
send their wives out to work long hours, while they sit on their backsides
are fundamentally no different.







--
https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-...forced-labour/

On 12/04/2020 08:55, Brian Reay wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 12/04/2020 08:22, Brian Reay wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
You'd need an awfully large charger to get voltage spikes past the very
low impedance of a car battery.

If the battery is knackered, won't that impedance increase? As an
endpoint, imagine if the battery was completely dry - it's open circuit
and so wouldn't accept any current at all, and all the current would be
put into the car electronics.

Would sulphation raise the impedance?

Yes to both. But then that is two faults. An incredibly crappy charger and
a totally knackered battery.

Properly designed car electronics should have voltage regulators (and
components) rated up to 40 volts.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some weren't as
tolerant as they should be (also that aftermarket radio you got from
China...)

The old chestnut that only China makes rubbish. ;-)

It may be true that if you want to specity and sell cheap rubbish you
get it made in China, but that's only because China is the cheapest
place to make any electronics, from cheap and nasty to top quality.



That is what happens when people exploit others, sending them out to work
long hours while they take the money. Exploitation.

Not unlike racism, when those on selection boards apply special rules to
prevent ethnic groups from getting jobs.

Then you get people who abuse people from one race/ culture, forcing them
to work long hours in menial jobs, almost slave labour. Not uncommon in
domestic situations.



the world is a very unfair place......


Some people make it worse.

You read about cases of domestic abuse, often wealthy foreign families who
bring servants and treat them like slaves when they arrive here. The €˜gang
masters of course who treat illegal immigrants like slaves. Husbands who
send their wives out to work long hours, while they sit on their backsides
are fundamentally no different.







i wouldn't lump all that together.....not the same at all....

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

RJH wrote:

Break the -ve first on disconnection, make it first on reconnection.
For the avoidance of doubt :-)

Thanks, Rob.

On 11/04/2020 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Corroded terminals are really a thing from the distant past.

When the battery before the battery before this current one failed, one
of the terminals was very corroded then. This was about ten years ago,
I think.

I take it you don't have a glance over such things when filling the
windscreen washer?


I don't.

--
Adam

On 12/04/2020 08:44, RJH wrote:
On 11 Apr 2020 at 18:26:23 BST, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

Bert Coules laid this down on his screen :
Should there be an "un" in there somewhere? Or should one "make" be "break"?

Yep, well spotted :-)

Break the -ve first on disconnection, make it first on reconnection.

For the avoidance of doubt :-)


Err...

I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your cars electrical system.
....
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.


https://www.driving.co.uk/car-clinic/haynes-how-to/how-change-car-battery/

Undo the clamp nut and remove the cable from the negative terminal first
....
Install the new battery, fitting the hold-down clamp(s) and securing the
positive cable before the negative cable






--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 00:29:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Ah - that's why it wouldn't the next time. It's also bad for the engine to
start it just for a short time.

A mates Dad started and drove his newish Jag (Mondeo based?) just a
few feet and the next time he tried to start it it wouldn't. I can't
remember what he had to do then, maybe just keep cranking it over?

Some versions of Bosch injection were notorious for that. Start the car
cold in the garage, drive it outside, and stop the engine while you locked
up the garage. Wouldn't restart. New plugs needed.

Feck.

And I thought the Germans were good at that sort of thing?

Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2020 07:12, ARW wrote:
On 11/04/2020 17:31, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

You don't have to charge it fully in one go.Â* So how about (a) take
the charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

Oh, OK.Â* I didn't realise that would work.Â* Thanks.

If the car does start I believe it's good practice to rev it knackers
off for 20 minutes at 6am:-)




40 minutes if it is a diesel, with the bonnet up too.

An update:

After eight hours charging yesterday (stopping at 7pm) the light test was
OK and the engine started flawlessly. This morning a borrowed multimeter
gave a reading of 14.6V, the car once again started with no problems and I
left it idling for five minutes, after which the reading had dropped very
slightly to 14.4V.

I have no excuse for driving the car today, so tomorrow's shopping trip will
reveal if things remain good.

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:24:08 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

An update:

After eight hours charging yesterday (stopping at 7pm) the light test was
OK and the engine started flawlessly. This morning a borrowed multimeter
gave a reading of 14.6V, the car once again started with no problems and I
left it idling for five minutes, after which the reading had dropped very
slightly to 14.4V.

I have no excuse for driving the car today, so tomorrow's shopping trip will
reveal if things remain good.

Excellent, sounds like you may have caught it in time.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Things to add to your Internet shopping list before *they* get in
short supply. A basic multi meter (every house / car owner should have
one anyway) and an intelligent battery charger (that can charge /
maintain).

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 11/04/2020 14:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Depending on the motor it takes about 200A to start a car for about 5
seconds.

If a reasonable charge current once started is 5 A that needs 200
seconds to replace the charge.

Or about 3 1/2 minutes.

These figures are well within an order of magnitude. If you start a car
you should not routinely stop it within 5 minutes if you can avoid it



Have you driven a new car that turns the engine off automatically when
you stop?

Not with the engine cold, though.

Although TBH my A reg Ford Sierra always cut out when I stopped and was
obviously years ahead in design.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car‘s electrical system.
...
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.

Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals. But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.

--
*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 00:29:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Ah - that's why it wouldn't the next time. It's also bad for the engine to
start it just for a short time.

A mates Dad started and drove his newish Jag (Mondeo based?) just a
few feet and the next time he tried to start it it wouldn't. I can't
remember what he had to do then, maybe just keep cranking it over?

Some versions of Bosch injection were notorious for that. Start the car
cold in the garage, drive it outside, and stop the engine while you locked
up the garage. Wouldn't restart. New plugs needed.

Feck.

And I thought the Germans were good at that sort of thing?

It didn't apply to every make and model with similar injection. So almost
certainly a mapping funny.

I'd read about it on a one model forum for a car I owned. Never
experienced it - since it's not something I'd do, with my car parked in
the street. But my specialist dealer did. Left the car on their secure
forecourt late one afternoon so they could service it first thing. They
started it from cold, moved it into the workshop and stopped it. And
couldn't get it to start afterwards. They were rather surprised when I
told them it was a known funny. Routine plug changes were something like
60,000 miles, and it wasn't due for them. But they had to change them
anyway.

--
*ONE NICE THING ABOUT EGOTISTS: THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote:

Excellent, sounds like you may have caught it in time.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. ;-)

Thanks! And for the shopping list.

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:18:05 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip
And I thought the Germans were good at that sort of thing?

It didn't apply to every make and model with similar injection. So almost
certainly a mapping funny.

I'd read about it on a one model forum for a car I owned. Never
experienced it - since it's not something I'd do, with my car parked in
the street. But my specialist dealer did. Left the car on their secure
forecourt late one afternoon so they could service it first thing. They
started it from cold, moved it into the workshop and stopped it. And
couldn't get it to start afterwards. They were rather surprised when I
told them it was a known funny. Routine plug changes were something like
60,000 miles, and it wasn't due for them. But they had to change them
anyway.

So could the plugs not be cleaned or were they actually damaged in
some way that prevented them being reused?

I appreciate very few garages still have those little spark plug shot
blasters. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:11:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car‘s electrical system.
...
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.

Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

There isn't one. A break in an electrical circuit is still a break no
matter where it is (given a simple / single circuit, for the left
brainers / Reay other trolls). ;-)

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals.

Quite, of, if you have just charged a big vented LA battery, away from
anywhere were there could be high levels of hydrogen (like my EV), in
case of a spark.

But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

Same with the advice to not wear metal-strap watches or rings when
working with all sorts of high power (current mainly) apparatus for
fear of a short causing some very bad burns.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.

;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2020 12:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car€˜s electrical system.
...
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.

Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals. But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.


I cited it only for the order of disconnection/connection - which was
the point at issue. And your comments unhelpfully imply it doesn't
matter which order you /reconnect/ the battery - despite the similar
risk of shorting the battery when reconnecting the positive.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 12/04/2020 12:19, Bert Coules wrote:
"T i m" wrote:

Excellent, sounds like you may have caught it in time.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. ;-)

Thanks!Â* And for the shopping list.

If the battery charger you have has a make and model number I suggest
you first check if it is "intelligent".

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

If the battery charger you have has a make and model number I suggest you
first check if it is "intelligent".

The label states, "Made for Kingavon Ltd, Ipswich. Model BCH6

A quick Google throws up a couple of examples for sale second hand but no
information as to its intelligence or lack of it.

On 11/04/2020 17:07, Bert Coules wrote:
"newshound" wrote:

The battery might be getting a bit old and tired, then, especially as
it is not particularly cold now.

It's two years old and still under guarantee, though I don't know if
that would cover the charge draining through lack of use.

If you don't tell them they won't know! Unless it has consistently not
been charging properly or unless you do *very* little mileage, I would
wonder if it was faulty. Going a week or even a fortnight without
running should not cause a problem. Might expect problems after a month
especially in very cold weather (which reduces battery capacity and
makes cranking current higher).

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:04:53 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 12/04/2020 12:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car‘s electrical system.
...
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.

Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals. But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.


I cited it only for the order of disconnection/connection - which was
the point at issue. And your comments unhelpfully imply it doesn't
matter which order you /reconnect/ the battery - despite the similar
risk of shorting the battery when reconnecting the positive.

Quite, but you also quoted from your link:

"When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car‘s electrical system",

... which I believe is the point that Dave was responding to.

Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2020 13:23, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

If the battery charger you have has a make and model number I suggest
you first check if it is "intelligent".

The label states, "Made for Kingavon Ltd, Ipswich.Â* Model BCH6

A quick Google throws up a couple of examples for sale second hand but
no information as to its intelligence or lack of it.

Does it look like this one?

http://www.precisionhk.com/uploads/s...30Z6103454.pdf

If so I think it's sold with various labels stuck on; and it's not
intelligent. OTOH it's protected against being connected the wrong way
round or shorted; and you've proved that it works.

So FWLIW I don't see any need for you /rush/ to replace it - especially
if that'd involve an extra shopping or much money. Aldi/Lidl do them
from time to time for c.£15. Just don't leave it on charge too long if
you have cause to use it again.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:08:01 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 12/04/2020 12:19, Bert Coules wrote:
"T i m" wrote:

Excellent, sounds like you may have caught it in time.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. ;-)

Thanks!* And for the shopping list.

If the battery charger you have has a make and model number I suggest
you first check if it is "intelligent".

I was going by:

"I'd completely forgotten that I do in fact have a battery charger,
picked up I think at a boot fair on a whim years back, so I've no idea
if it works - I've certainly never used it for anything.

I'm not even sure that it's intended for cars: it's switchable between
six and twelve volts and is marked "Fast Charge 6 Amp". The clamps
strike me as a bit small and flimsy for a car terminals and the
warning "for indoor use only" doesn't inspire confidence either. Is
it worth giving it a go, do you think?"

And:

"There's no meter or any other indicator sort of on
the charger."

"... any other sort of indicator" dammit."

"Mine is in a plastic casing with no apparent heatsinks, externally at
least. It has six LEDs marked from 1A up to 6."

"Robin asked:

If it's that old does it also have the means to select the mains voltage
between (say) 200-210, 220-30 and 240-250V?

No, there's no option to do that. I don't think it's ancient exactly,
just not totally up to date perhaps. "

So, all that suggested to me that it wasn't as intelligent as the
cheapy Ctech clones you typically get from Aldi/Lidl now and again?

Not that it wouldn't serve much of the same overall purpose, just
maybe not as well as an intelligent one.

If Bert has the means of access power on his drive (especially with
the car driven up to said point forwards) then you can generally shut
(not slam) a car bonnet down (so locked) with the extension lead cable
completely free or just held in a rubber seal and the charger placed
somewhere 'safe' (plenty of air space, sitting on something metal etc)
and when the engine bay is cold etc.

Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2020 13:24, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:04:53 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 12/04/2020 12:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car€˜s electrical system.
...
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.

Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals. But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.


I cited it only for the order of disconnection/connection - which was
the point at issue. And your comments unhelpfully imply it doesn't
matter which order you /reconnect/ the battery - despite the similar
risk of shorting the battery when reconnecting the positive.

Quite, but you also quoted from your link:

"When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car€˜s electrical system",

... which I believe is the point that Dave was responding to.

Cheers, T i m


indeed - but labelling the whole thing "total ********" before a
qualified comment on disconnection. Given Bert has already twice been
told to reconnect the negative first...

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 12/04/2020 10:53, Andrew wrote:
On 12/04/2020 07:12, ARW wrote:
On 11/04/2020 17:31, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

You don't have to charge it fully in one go.Â* So how about (a) take
the charger off tonight and (b) put the charger back on in the morning?

Oh, OK.Â* I didn't realise that would work.Â* Thanks.

If the car does start I believe it's good practice to rev it knackers
off for 20 minutes at 6am:-)




40 minutes if it is a diesel, with the bonnet up too.

:-)

--
Adam

Robin wrote:

Does it look like this one?
http://www.precisionhk.com/uploads/s...30Z6103454.pdf

It does, albeit - as you say - with slightly different labelling. Not
intelligent then, but extremely useful and as you suggest I'll not be in too
great a rush to replace it. Thanks.

On 12/04/2020 13:04, Robin wrote:

I cited it only for the order of disconnection/connection - which was
the point at issue.Â* And your comments unhelpfully imply it doesn't
matter which order you /reconnect/ the battery - despite the similar
risk of shorting the battery when reconnecting the positive.


You're right and I for one understood it as that

T i m wrote:

If Bert has the means of access power on his drive (especially with
the car driven up to said point forwards) then you can generally shut
(not slam) a car bonnet down (so locked) with the extension lead cable
completely free or just held in a rubber seal and the charger placed
somewhere 'safe' (plenty of air space, sitting on something metal etc)
and when the engine bay is cold etc.

It doesn't matter now, since eight hours of charging (in daylight) seems to
have been enough, but in fact the car was parked sideways on my paved front
garden which would have made concealment of the operation tricky. Probably
it would have been OK, though, at need.

"newshound" wrote:

Unless it has consistently not been charging properly or unless you do
*very* little mileage, I would wonder if it was faulty. Going a week or
even a fortnight without running should not cause a problem.

These are of course the perfect circumstances for testing exactly that.
After my shopping expedition tomorrow or Tuesday I don't expect to be using
the car again for at least a week and maybe longer: it will be interesting
to see what happens, or doesn't.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:18:05 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip
And I thought the Germans were good at that sort of thing?

It didn't apply to every make and model with similar injection. So almost
certainly a mapping funny.

I'd read about it on a one model forum for a car I owned. Never
experienced it - since it's not something I'd do, with my car parked in
the street. But my specialist dealer did. Left the car on their secure
forecourt late one afternoon so they could service it first thing. They
started it from cold, moved it into the workshop and stopped it. And
couldn't get it to start afterwards. They were rather surprised when I
told them it was a known funny. Routine plug changes were something like
60,000 miles, and it wasn't due for them. But they had to change them
anyway.

So could the plugs not be cleaned or were they actually damaged in
some way that prevented them being reused?

Not sure. Common sense would say they could be cleaned and dried out
properly. But given how cheap they are and labour costs being so high,
likely not worth it.

I appreciate very few garages still have those little spark plug shot
blasters. ;-)

That's going back a bit. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

--
*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

There isn't one. A break in an electrical circuit is still a break no
matter where it is (given a simple / single circuit, for the left
brainers / Reay other trolls). ;-)

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals.

Quite, of, if you have just charged a big vented LA battery, away from
anywhere were there could be high levels of hydrogen (like my EV), in
case of a spark.

Thing is if you attack the 'live' terminal first, and the spanner touches
the bodywork, you'll get a rather large spark. Even weld the two together,
at worst. ;-) So the advice is sound, but not the reasons.

But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

Same with the advice to not wear metal-strap watches or rings when
working with all sorts of high power (current mainly) apparatus for
fear of a short causing some very bad burns.

Indeed. But many want to impress with their superior knowledge in such
things to add to confusion, rather than sticking to the important bits.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.

--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 12/04/2020 12:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
I'll play safe and post a link or 2:

https://www.racshop.co.uk/advice/how...-a-car-battery

When removing a battery, always remove the negative terminal first as
failure to do so could damage your car�s electrical system.
...
then securely reconnect the positive (+) terminal followed by the
negative (-) terminal.

Total ********. Unless you can give an explanation as to why.

It may well be good practice to disconnect the ground terminal first as
there is then less chance of shorting the battery to ground with the
spanner used for the terminals. But that is zero to do with damage to the
car electrical system.

That also remains good for older cars with a positive ground.


I cited it only for the order of disconnection/connection - which was
the point at issue. And your comments unhelpfully imply it doesn't
matter which order you /reconnect/ the battery - despite the similar
risk of shorting the battery when reconnecting the positive.

Then you should have edited out the bit about damaging the car's
electrical system. And explain just why it should be done in that order.
As I did.

Sorry for assuming that explanation would be understood for reconnection
too. Forgot about the morons here.

--

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 12/04/2020 12:19, Bert Coules wrote:
"T i m" wrote:

Excellent, sounds like you may have caught it in time.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. ;-)

Thanks! And for the shopping list.

If the battery charger you have has a make and model number I suggest
you first check if it is "intelligent".

No real need for a so called intelligent type if low output and used
merely to charge a flat battery.

'Intelligent' ones are designed for long term connection - like say if the
car is stored indoors and secure. Bert has already stated this isn't the
case.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/04/2020 23:09, Bert Coules wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

And how can I tell when the battery is sufficiently charged?

when the terminal voltage is over 13V

But how do I tell that?Â* There's no meter or any other indicator sort of
on the charger.


Intitially just leave it switched on for a couple of hours and then see
if the car wants to start. If so leave it connected for a day.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/04/2020 13:23, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

If the battery charger you have has a make and model number I suggest
you first check if it is "intelligent".

The label states, "Made for Kingavon Ltd, Ipswich.Â* Model BCH6

A quick Google throws up a couple of examples for sale second hand but
no information as to its intelligence or lack of it.

Sherlock Holmes would be proud of you...tee hee

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:22:42 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

T i m wrote:

If Bert has the means of access power on his drive (especially with
the car driven up to said point forwards) then you can generally shut
(not slam) a car bonnet down (so locked) with the extension lead cable
completely free or just held in a rubber seal and the charger placed
somewhere 'safe' (plenty of air space, sitting on something metal etc)
and when the engine bay is cold etc.

It doesn't matter now, since eight hours of charging (in daylight) seems to
have been enough,

'For now' though Bert, what about the next time?

but in fact the car was parked sideways on my paved front
garden which would have made concealment of the operation tricky.

Understood for that instance but I was talking about protecting
yourself for the future (if you don't have other means of recovery,
like another vehicle, jump leads, a spare / charged battery, portable
LiPo or capacitor boost starter or live on the top of a steep hill).
;-)

Probably
it would have been OK, though, at need.

The idea is that with your new intelligent charger and extension
cable, you park on the drive in such a way as to protect the cable
going in under the bonnet and leave the charger on 24/7. That way, no
matter how long it's left unused the vehicle is ready to go.

That's what many people do who have vehicles that are left unused, if
they don't disconnect the battery cable (as I do via an isolator
switch on the kitcar) or manually. Some even bring the battery indoors
and leave it on a charger there.

YMMV etc. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:18:58 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Robin wrote:

Does it look like this one?
http://www.precisionhk.com/uploads/s...30Z6103454.pdf

It does, albeit - as you say - with slightly different labelling. Not
intelligent then, but extremely useful and as you suggest I'll not be in too
great a rush to replace it. Thanks.

No need to replace it (horses for courses) as you might use an
intelligent maintenance charger differently.

https://www.optimate.co.uk/products/optimate-2

The Optimate 2 only has an output current of .8A so not really
suitable for what you have just used your old charger for (charging a
very flat battery fairly quickly).

But the object here is to stop the battery going flat in the first
place by using such a charger to safely offset the parasitic loads
that drain the battery (risking the need of an early and expensive
replacement battery, let the alone the inconvenience, especially atm
and in an 'emergency'). ;-(

But maybe I just like being prepared [1] and not reliant on others as
much as possible? shrug

I'm not suggesting for one second that you should go out and buy such
a thing, just that it's probably the most suitable solution for you
(as you have private access to mains power). [2]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Like the neighbours who own a car but don't own any jump leads or
battery charger and *regularly* ask to borrow mine but have had more
holidays and run newer cars than I do? Priorities?

[2] The Optimates generally come with a short harness, fuse and plug
that you can leave attached to your battery and then just plug the
charger end in, saves having to muck about with crock clips etc.

On 12/04/2020 15:58, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:18:58 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Robin wrote:

Does it look like this one?
http://www.precisionhk.com/uploads/s...30Z6103454.pdf

It does, albeit - as you say - with slightly different labelling. Not
intelligent then, but extremely useful and as you suggest I'll not be in too
great a rush to replace it. Thanks.

No need to replace it (horses for courses) as you might use an
intelligent maintenance charger differently.

https://www.optimate.co.uk/products/optimate-2

The Optimate 2 only has an output current of .8A so not really
suitable for what you have just used your old charger for (charging a
very flat battery fairly quickly).

But the object here is to stop the battery going flat in the first
place by using such a charger to safely offset the parasitic loads
that drain the battery (risking the need of an early and expensive
replacement battery, let the alone the inconvenience, especially atm
and in an 'emergency'). ;-(

But maybe I just like being prepared [1] and not reliant on others as
much as possible? shrug

I'm not suggesting for one second that you should go out and buy such
a thing, just that it's probably the most suitable solution for you
(as you have private access to mains power). [2]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Like the neighbours who own a car but don't own any jump leads or
battery charger and *regularly* ask to borrow mine but have had more
holidays and run newer cars than I do? Priorities?

[2] The Optimates generally come with a short harness, fuse and plug
that you can leave attached to your battery and then just plug the
charger end in, saves having to muck about with crock clips etc.

christ they are only a tenner...