There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe.


NT

On 13/02/2020 22:24, wrote:
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe.


So what would be an adequate earth?
TW

On 13/02/2020 22:24, wrote:
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe.

and because the pipework is earthed - that doesn't mean that the
incoming main is THE earth for the house, does it?

TW

On 13/02/2020 22:24, wrote:
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe.


Was it used as the earth or just a bonding point?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?


Depends

That may have been just bonding of the incoming metal water pipe. If so
there may be no need for it *if* you've now got all plastic. If not best
to attach the wire to where copper water pipe starts again to maintain
equipotential bonding. See

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g#Main_Bonding

OTOH it may be - if it's an old house - the water pipe was part of (or
even all of!) the earthing for all your wiring. If so you may need
something to take its place - and PDQ if it was all you had.

Best place to start is what sort of earthing you have

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Earthing_Types

If you aren't sure post links to some pictures.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Thursday, 13 February 2020 22:35:57 UTC, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:24, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:

There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe.


So what would be an adequate earth?
TW

It depends on your install. Maybe an earth rod plus RCDs/RCBOs on all circuits. If your install uses the waterpipe as the main earth - which we can't be sure of at this point - it may have no RCD protection. Recommend posting a clear pic of the fusebox on here, plus the supplier's incomer.

As has been said it's also possible it's a modern install and the connection is just an equipotential bond. We don't know yet. The seriousness of having no earth and an old fusebox means show us pics without delay. Yes there may be earthing elsewhere too.


NT

On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

You have several possibilities here, ranging from mostly all ok, not
much to worry about, to, you now have seriously defective electrical
installation that will be a potential danger to life.

Needless to say, working out which is the first priority. :-)

The links Robin posted should help you identify the type of earthing
system you have. If it turns out to be one of the TN variants, then you
have not much to worry about. If its TT and the rising main was your
main earth connection, you need to take some immediate steps to make it
safe.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

No you are not earthed by the water, not in my experience at any rate.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"TimW" wrote in message
...
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house
under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There
there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a
large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not
Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I
need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or
are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

I've often wondered what they do these days as people tell me you can see
the plastic pipes coming up for the services in new builds. Maybe they all
have some kind of local Earth spike or are they all joined together these
days and earthed at intervals down the road?
Interesting.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is
not safe.


NT

On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:24, wrote:
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimWÂ* wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no
earth is not safe.


So what would be an adequate earth?
TW


Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation.


But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this
clamp was merely equipotential bonding?

In article ,
TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe.
Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out.

--
*Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was SHUT UP .

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth
is not safe.


It's not the water which provides the earth. It's the metal pipe in
contact with the ground over a long distance.

--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:

Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation.


But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this
clamp was merely equipotential bonding?


Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around
asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned
is a very dangerous installation.

On 14/02/2020 08:49, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
I've often wondered what they do these days as people tell me you can see
the plastic pipes coming up for the services in new builds. Maybe they all
have some kind of local Earth spike or are they all joined together these
days and earthed at intervals down the road?


Typically the earth will be provided by the electrical supplier, using
their combined Protective Earth and Neutral conductor. Thus giving the
consumer a TN-C-S / PME earthing system.

If the pipework in the house is metal, then it still need equipotential
bonding since its capable of introducing a voltage into an equipotential
zone from elsewhere in the house even if it can't do it from external to
the property due to the plastic services.

If the pipework in the property is all[1] the plastic, then the pipework
will not be included in the equipotential bonding.

[1] No need for EQ bonding in cases where the pipework is all plastic
but with only "show work" in copper.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

That is a bonding connection, not an earth connection (I hope).

--
Chris Green
·

On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

All more erudite considerations apart, the Water Boards do not guarantee that their water will be present at all times that the electricity is on.

--
(c) John Stockton, near London, UK. Using Google Groups. |
Mail: - or as Reply-To, if any. |

On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.

On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast). But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to
the copper pipe comes from?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.


The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the
corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road.
tw

On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to
the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and
onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag
on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to
the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation. That is, someone has come along and connected the earth
cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if
you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup. And
there might be an earth rod somewhere. But when looked at alongside the
consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on
some circuits) I'd be bothered. I think you should have it looked at.
But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:

Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation.


But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this
clamp was merely equipotential bonding?


Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around
asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned
is a very dangerous installation.


Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's
main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME".

That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact
connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right
by the front door.

As someone else suggested, a photo of the fuse box and surrounds would
let us advise better.

On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

It is not possible from the photo posted to say definitively what type
of earthing system you have here.

You would need to get a competent electrician to determine that.

You may be able to speak to your DNO (distribution network operator) to
determine if their network in your area has PME (protective multiple
earting) available.

Re Your original question about the 'earth wire' connected to the water
pipe, this is most likely to be a bonding connection.

On 14/02/2020 13:51, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and
onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag
on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.


The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the
corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road.
tw

I wonder why there is an earth cable going into the company fuse
block then ?. I thought overhead supply was phase and neutral only and
you had to have a separate earthing arrangement.

There is another earth cable coming out of the company fuse block
and it droops down but doesn't seem to go anywhere ?. Is this
correct ?.

On 14/02/2020 15:44, newshound wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:

Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation.


But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this
clamp was merely equipotential bonding?


Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky
around asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have
mentioned is a very dangerous installation.


Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's
main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME".

That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact
connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right
by the front door.

Indeed the sticker alone is not solid evidence that the install is
actually using the PME earth.

My cutout has the PME sticker, but it would seem that the upgrade to a
PME capable supply occurred after the house was previously re-wired.

Hence the installation is TT (as would be typical for many rural
properties with overhead supplies).




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

That superficially at least looks like a TN-C-S install. There is a
yellow sticker on the side of the cutout, does that say PME by any chance?

If it is as it appears, then the connection to the water main was just
an equipotential bond. It still needs to be connected back to the
incoming cold supply just after your stop tap if your internal pipework
is metal, but it does not pose as serious a risk as not having a main
earth.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/02/2020 15:59, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:51, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into
my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe
and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a
tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.


The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the
corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road.
tw

I wonder why there is an earth cable going into the company fuse
block then ?. I thought overhead supply was phase and neutral only and
you had to have a separate earthing arrangement.

Historically that was the case, but many overhead supplies have been
upgraded with PME capability over the years. (sometimes looking at the
polls will give a clue - they may have earthing conductors running down
the side of every few)

There is another earth cable coming out of the company fuse block
and it droops down but doesn't seem to go anywhere ?. Is this
correct ?.

Probably a left over from the now removed time switched CU.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/02/2020 15:49, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

It is not possible from the photo posted to say definitively what type
of earthing system you have here.

You would need to get a competent electrician to determine that.

I would say if Tim can confirm the presence of the PME sticker (assuming
this is a UK installation) on the left of the cutout, there is a very
strong likelihood of it being TN-C-S.

To be certain he could, turn off the power, pull the main fuse, and take
the cover off the cutout (with the normal warnings about access to live
parts etc). A TN-C-S install would have a metal bridge between the
neutral and earth terminal blocks in the cutout:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ePMECutout.jpg

The same style of cutout can be used for other supply types. Say it were
TN-S you may see something like:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...PMECutout3.jpg

(Note the missing link, and the separate earth feed from a split
concentric cable)

You may be able to speak to your DNO (distribution network operator) to
determine if their network in your area has PME (protective multiple
earting) available.

Yup, they should be able to tell you what its capable off even if not
what your actual installation is.

Re Your original question about the 'earth wire' connected to the water
pipe, this is most likely to be a bonding connection.

I would concur.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

All more erudite considerations apart, the Water Boards do not guarantee
that their water will be present at all times that the electricity is on.

It isnt the water that matters, its the pipe,

On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe.
Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.


NT

On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:23:46 UTC, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

You've got a supplier earth with partial RCD cover. So the water pipe connection is equipotential bonding only. If the internal piping is metal, reconnect the earth coloured wire to the house metal water piping somewhere near where it enters the house and Robert becomes related.


NT

On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into
my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe
and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a
tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected
to the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth
cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if
you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And
there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the
consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on
some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at.
But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.





Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a
Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and
that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and
remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head.

--
Adam

On 15/02/2020 08:35, wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do
Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with
blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something,
or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe.
Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of
"Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the
industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already
pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may
charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements
before they supply PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into
my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe
and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with
a tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected
to the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth
cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if
you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And
there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside
the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection
on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked
at. But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.





Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a
Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and
that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and
remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head.


My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution.

And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living
- and by all accounts rather well.




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into
my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe
and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with
a tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and
replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth
arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in
another way, into the ground or something, or are we still
earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside
world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But
I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of
them to advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected
to the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the
earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look
as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And
there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside
the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection
on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked
at. But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.





Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has
a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed
and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal
and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head.


My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution.

And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living
- and by all accounts rather well.





It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but
that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier.



--
Adam

On 15/02/2020 10:45, ARW wrote:
On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water
into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd
under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into
copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was
connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and
replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth
arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in
another way, into the ground or something, or are we still
earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside
world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But
I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of
them to advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire
connected to the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the
earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it
look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And
there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside
the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD
protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should
have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.





Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually
has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is
sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut
the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head.


My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution.

And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a
living - and by all accounts rather well.





It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but
that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier.




I think I was biased by the contrast with the few conversions to PME
I've seen where the earth was a short bit of cable to a MET, or to a
connector left dangling like

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/-/media/images/uk-power-networks/ge/earthing/pme-earthing-photo.ashx?h=232&w=408&la=en&hash=A5FA061E3047D5F7 76145E3CFD0CB2A81AEB15A6



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/02/2020 10:45, ARW wrote:
On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water
into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd
under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into
copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was
connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and
replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth
arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in
another way, into the ground or something, or are we still
earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside
world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But
I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of
them to advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire
connected to the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw

Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the
earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it
look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And
there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside
the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD
protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should
have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.


Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually
has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is
sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut
the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head.


My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution.

And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a
living - and by all accounts rather well.


It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but
that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier.



Yes, thanks. Really useful. Given that that board has been put in the
porch there in my time and the wiring has been professionally inspected
after some alterations since then I will just sleep easy.
TW

In article ,
wrote:
It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water
pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.

How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier?

If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-)

--
*He who laughs last has just realised the joke.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.