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Earthing through plastic pipe
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
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Earthing through plastic pipe
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Earthing through plastic pipe
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Earthing through plastic pipe
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? Depends :) That may have been just bonding of the incoming metal water pipe. If so there may be no need for it *if* you've now got all plastic. If not best to attach the wire to where copper water pipe starts again to maintain equipotential bonding. See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g#Main_Bonding OTOH it may be - if it's an old house - the water pipe was part of (or even all of!) the earthing for all your wiring. If so you may need something to take its place - and PDQ if it was all you had. Best place to start is what sort of earthing you have http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Earthing_Types If you aren't sure post links to some pictures. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 22:35:57 UTC, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:24, tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe. So what would be an adequate earth? TW It depends on your install. Maybe an earth rod plus RCDs/RCBOs on all circuits. If your install uses the waterpipe as the main earth - which we can't be sure of at this point - it may have no RCD protection. Recommend posting a clear pic of the fusebox on here, plus the supplier's incomer. As has been said it's also possible it's a modern install and the connection is just an equipotential bond. We don't know yet. The seriousness of having no earth and an old fusebox means show us pics without delay. Yes there may be earthing elsewhere too. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? You have several possibilities here, ranging from mostly all ok, not much to worry about, to, you now have seriously defective electrical installation that will be a potential danger to life. Needless to say, working out which is the first priority. :-) The links Robin posted should help you identify the type of earthing system you have. If it turns out to be one of the TN variants, then you have not much to worry about. If its TT and the rising main was your main earth connection, you need to take some immediate steps to make it safe. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
No you are not earthed by the water, not in my experience at any rate.
Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "TimW" wrote in message ... There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:24, wrote: On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimWÂ* wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe. So what would be an adequate earth? TW Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation. But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this clamp was merely equipotential bonding? |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. -- *Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was SHUT UP . Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
wrote: On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW Water is NOT an adequate earth. An old electrical install with no earth is not safe. It's not the water which provides the earth. It's the metal pipe in contact with the ground over a long distance. -- *If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote: Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation. But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this clamp was merely equipotential bonding? Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned is a very dangerous installation. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 08:49, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
I've often wondered what they do these days as people tell me you can see the plastic pipes coming up for the services in new builds. Maybe they all have some kind of local Earth spike or are they all joined together these days and earthed at intervals down the road? Typically the earth will be provided by the electrical supplier, using their combined Protective Earth and Neutral conductor. Thus giving the consumer a TN-C-S / PME earthing system. If the pipework in the house is metal, then it still need equipotential bonding since its capable of introducing a voltage into an equipotential zone from elsewhere in the house even if it can't do it from external to the property due to the plastic services. If the pipework in the property is all[1] the plastic, then the pipework will not be included in the equipotential bonding. [1] No need for EQ bonding in cases where the pipework is all plastic but with only "show work" in copper. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? That is a bonding connection, not an earth connection (I hope). -- Chris Green · |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote:
The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? All more erudite considerations apart, the Water Boards do not guarantee that their water will be present at all times that the electricity is on. -- (c) John Stockton, near London, UK. Using Google Groups. | Mail: - or as Reply-To, if any. | |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in from underground ?. If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it. The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB an older name for RCD ?. Not sure. Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion. I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast). But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in from underground ?. If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it. The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB an older name for RCD ?. Not sure. Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion. I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know. The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road. tw |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation. That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup. And there might be an earth rod somewhere. But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered. I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote: On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote: Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation. But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this clamp was merely equipotential bonding? Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned is a very dangerous installation. Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME". That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right by the front door. As someone else suggested, a photo of the fuse box and surrounds would let us advise better. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW It is not possible from the photo posted to say definitively what type of earthing system you have here. You would need to get a competent electrician to determine that. You may be able to speak to your DNO (distribution network operator) to determine if their network in your area has PME (protective multiple earting) available. Re Your original question about the 'earth wire' connected to the water pipe, this is most likely to be a bonding connection. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 13:51, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in from underground ?. If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it. The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB an older name for RCD ?. Not sure. Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion. I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know. The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road. tw I wonder why there is an earth cable going into the company fuse block then ?. I thought overhead supply was phase and neutral only and you had to have a separate earthing arrangement. There is another earth cable coming out of the company fuse block and it droops down but doesn't seem to go anywhere ?. Is this correct ?. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 15:44, newshound wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote: On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote: Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation. But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this clamp was merely equipotential bonding? Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned is a very dangerous installation. Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME". That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right by the front door. Indeed the sticker alone is not solid evidence that the install is actually using the PME earth. My cutout has the PME sticker, but it would seem that the upgrade to a PME capable supply occurred after the house was previously re-wired. Hence the installation is TT (as would be typical for many rural properties with overhead supplies). -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That superficially at least looks like a TN-C-S install. There is a yellow sticker on the side of the cutout, does that say PME by any chance? If it is as it appears, then the connection to the water main was just an equipotential bond. It still needs to be connected back to the incoming cold supply just after your stop tap if your internal pipework is metal, but it does not pose as serious a risk as not having a main earth. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 15:59, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:51, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in from underground ?. If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it. The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB an older name for RCD ?. Not sure. Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion. I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know. The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road. tw I wonder why there is an earth cable going into the company fuse block then ?. I thought overhead supply was phase and neutral only and you had to have a separate earthing arrangement. Historically that was the case, but many overhead supplies have been upgraded with PME capability over the years. (sometimes looking at the polls will give a clue - they may have earthing conductors running down the side of every few) There is another earth cable coming out of the company fuse block and it droops down but doesn't seem to go anywhere ?. Is this correct ?. Probably a left over from the now removed time switched CU. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 15:49, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW It is not possible from the photo posted to say definitively what type of earthing system you have here. You would need to get a competent electrician to determine that. I would say if Tim can confirm the presence of the PME sticker (assuming this is a UK installation) on the left of the cutout, there is a very strong likelihood of it being TN-C-S. To be certain he could, turn off the power, pull the main fuse, and take the cover off the cutout (with the normal warnings about access to live parts etc). A TN-C-S install would have a metal bridge between the neutral and earth terminal blocks in the cutout: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ePMECutout.jpg The same style of cutout can be used for other supply types. Say it were TN-S you may see something like: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...PMECutout3.jpg (Note the missing link, and the separate earth feed from a split concentric cable) You may be able to speak to your DNO (distribution network operator) to determine if their network in your area has PME (protective multiple earting) available. Yup, they should be able to tell you what its capable off even if not what your actual installation is. Re Your original question about the 'earth wire' connected to the water pipe, this is most likely to be a bonding connection. I would concur. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
wrote in message ... On Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59:54 UTC, TimW wrote: The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? All more erudite considerations apart, the Water Boards do not guarantee that their water will be present at all times that the electricity is on. It isnt the water that matters, its the pipe, |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:23:46 UTC, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? RW You've got a supplier earth with partial RCD cover. So the water pipe connection is equipotential bonding only. If the internal piping is metal, reconnect the earth coloured wire to the house metal water piping somewhere near where it enters the house and Robert becomes related. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head. -- Adam |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 08:35, wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head. My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution. And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living - and by all accounts rather well. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote: On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head. My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution. And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living - and by all accounts rather well. It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier. -- Adam |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 10:45, ARW wrote:
On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote: On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head. My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution. And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living - and by all accounts rather well. It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier. I think I was biased by the contrast with the few conversions to PME I've seen where the earth was a short bit of cable to a MET, or to a connector left dangling like https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/-/media/images/uk-power-networks/ge/earthing/pme-earthing-photo.ashx?h=232&w=408&la=en&hash=A5FA061E3047D5F7 76145E3CFD0CB2A81AEB15A6 -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 10:45, ARW wrote:
On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote: On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup.Â* And there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head. My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution. And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living - and by all accounts rather well. It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier. Yes, thanks. Really useful. Given that that board has been put in the porch there in my time and the wiring has been professionally inspected after some alterations since then I will just sleep easy. TW |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) -- *He who laughs last has just realised the joke. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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