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  #101   Report Post  
Old February 16th 20, 04:01 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default [OT] The last census?

On 13/02/2020 10:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pamela wrote:
On 14:21 12 Feb 2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


In article ,
Pamela wrote:


Much as I find the census intrusive, I think it's worth the hassle if it
helps locate illegal immigrants.

Would illegal immigrants fill in a census form?


Of course illegals would be evasive. But there are some situations
where census info might be useful in catching illegals, such as when
the landlord fills in the form.


Aren't we told landlords have to make sure none of their tenants are
illegal anyway? (Just another example of making a law with no way of
enforcing it.)


Lettings agents are legally required to do right of residency checks,
must as estate agents are required to do anti money laundering ones.


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John.

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  #102   Report Post  
Old February 16th 20, 04:15 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 14/02/2020 12:22, Andrew wrote:
On 13/02/2020 00:19, wrote:


Andrew wrote:
If the government wants to know where all the people are,
they can always demand all the records from the phone companies
and supermarkets.


Phone directories do not include children, ages, occupations, or
people other
than the primary subscriber in the household.


Almost all that information is available from other sources.
The NHS records all birth and vaccination records. Local
authorities know where all the kids live, who their parents
and or guardians are.

HMRC have employment, company and VAT data. Lots of it.
The police have their PNC at Hendon.
The Security sources in NI used to have details of every house
including even things like, colour of sofa and curtains. All useful
stuff for interrogating suspects.

Everything that government statisticians and planners need to
know can be now be collated simply by doing a huge data trawl
on the existing government and 'private' databases. 100 years
ago this rich source of data didn't exist.


I admire your faith in complex government IT systems to pull all this
data together.


--
Cheers,

John.

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  #103   Report Post  
Old February 16th 20, 04:24 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 10:11, newshound wrote:
On 12/02/2020 09:43, NY wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...



How are people identified in a census - I've forgotten? Is it just by
name or does each person in a household have to give a unique ID such
as National Insurance number? If they gave NI number, it would make it
much easier for genealogists to trace the correct John Smith as he
moves from house to house between one census and the next.


I've heard it said that most Americans (land of the free) know their
social security number. I've always thought that the NI number had some
merits as a potentially unique identifier. There are places that use it
as your login ID on the computer system.


While NIs are supposed to be unique they have generally been avoided as
key fields for databases since its known that some folks have none, some
more than one, and many have one the same as someone else.

(I recall one (possibly apocryphal tale) that some early forms that
attempted to collect data from people asked for an NI number at a time
when many did not even know what one was. To be helpful they provided an
example of what an NI number looked like. The result was predictable in
that many just dutifully copied the example into their form submission,
result in one data record with loads of duplicates)

--
Cheers,

John.

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  #104   Report Post  
Old February 16th 20, 04:45 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 9:30:18 AM UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian


I think you might find a lot of "non persons" For a start my OH is one. My mother is one and I have a low presence in my own name , I make sure of that. I dont like snoopers and to be honest you cant be too careful with your personal information these days.

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


  #105   Report Post  
Old February 16th 20, 06:27 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 16/02/2020 15:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:22, Andrew wrote:
On 13/02/2020 00:19, wrote:


Andrew wrote:
If the government wants to know where all the people are,
they can always demand all the records from the phone companies
and supermarkets.

Phone directories do not include children, ages, occupations, or
people other
than the primary subscriber in the household.


Almost all that information is available from other sources.
The NHS records all birth and vaccination records. Local
authorities know where all the kids live, who their parents
and or guardians are.

HMRC have employment, company and VAT data. Lots of it.
The police have their PNC at Hendon.
The Security sources in NI used to have details of every house
including even things like, colour of sofa and curtains. All useful
stuff for interrogating suspects.

Everything that government statisticians and planners need to
know can be now be collated simply by doing a huge data trawl
on the existing government and 'private' databases. 100 years
ago this rich source of data didn't exist.


I admire your faith in complex government IT systems to pull all this
data together.


And it's not just a matter of pulling data together. The various
sources mentioned aren't all high quality: e.g. HMRC don't have
/up-to-date/ addresses for all employees. That's why the Citizen
Information Project planned in the noughties was going to be so pricey -
and still fall well short of a population register like the ones in EU
States (from memory all bar Ireland and Denmark).


--
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  #106   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 04:18 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 16/02/2020 17:27, Robin wrote:
On 16/02/2020 15:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:22, Andrew wrote:
On 13/02/2020 00:19, wrote:


Andrew wrote:
If the government wants to know where all the people are,
they can always demand all the records from the phone companies
and supermarkets.

Phone directories do not include children, ages, occupations, or
people other
than the primary subscriber in the household.


Almost all that information is available from other sources.
The NHS records all birth and vaccination records. Local
authorities know where all the kids live, who their parents
and or guardians are.

HMRC have employment, company and VAT data. Lots of it.
The police have their PNC at Hendon.
The Security sources in NI used to have details of every house
including even things like, colour of sofa and curtains. All useful
stuff for interrogating suspects.

Everything that government statisticians and planners need to
know can be now be collated simply by doing a huge data trawl
on the existing government and 'private' databases. 100 years
ago this rich source of data didn't exist.


I admire your faith in complex government IT systems to pull all this
data together.


And it's not just a matter of pulling data together.* The various
sources mentioned aren't all high quality: e.g. HMRC don't have
/up-to-date/ addresses for all employees.* That's why the Citizen
Information Project planned in the noughties was going to be so pricey -
and still fall well short of a population register like the ones in EU
States (from memory all bar Ireland and Denmark).


That reminds me of a mammoth thread here about 15 years ago on the
subject of ID cards, and the difficulty getting some to recognise the
implications and dangers of a centralised register that would make just
this kind of data pooling and matching possible.

This one I think...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...7akw%5B1-25%5D

(you need to get to probably about page 9 for the best bits IMHO - the
contributions from the late great Stefek Zabar in particular spring to
mind).

--
Cheers,

John.

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  #107   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 09:41 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 17/02/2020 03:18, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 17:27, Robin wrote:

snip

And it's not just a matter of pulling data together.* The various
sources mentioned aren't all high quality: e.g. HMRC don't have
/up-to-date/ addresses for all employees.* That's why the Citizen
Information Project planned in the noughties was going to be so pricey
- and still fall well short of a population register like the ones in
EU States (from memory all bar Ireland and Denmark).


That reminds me of a mammoth thread here about 15 years ago on the
subject of ID cards, and the difficulty getting some to recognise the
implications and dangers of a centralised register that would make just
this kind of data pooling and matching possible.

This one I think...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...7akw%5B1-25%5D

(you need to get to probably about page 9 for the best bits IMHO - the
contributions from the late great Stefek Zabar in particular spring to
mind).


Interesting, thanks. And I can see some people here worrying when they
learn Dominic Cummings has sent a GDS team to Estonia )



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  #108   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 10:20 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

Robin wrote:

I can see some people here worrying when they
learn Dominic Cummings has sent a GDS team to Estonia


Didn't Estonia have to cancel and re-issue 750,000 digital ID cards?

I vaguely thought there was a similar case in Germany last year with
people having to queue to get re-identified, but can't find any
reference to it online.
  #109   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 12:44 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 17/02/2020 09:20, Andy Burns wrote:
Robin wrote:

I can see some people here worrying when they learn Dominic Cummings
has sent a GDS team to Estonia


Didn't Estonia have to cancel and re-issue 750,000 digital ID cards?

yep - though IIRC no one was known to have been affected by the security
flaw in the chip they'd bought; and it was only the security certificate
on the cards that was blocked, so the cards continued to work OK as ID
and travel documents.


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  #110   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 01:20 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On Friday, 14 February 2020 18:31:07 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 19:09:25 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 13 February 2020 14:33:47 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:43:09 UTC, jon lopgel wrote:
"Martyn Barclay" wrote in message
news On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:13:00 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385

The census is quite a valuable source of information for those
doing
family genealogy.

But is that worth the very high cost ?

That depends on what yuo mean by high costs.
But the census is also used as a prediction tool for the way the
country
and inhabitants are moving both politicvally and socailly although
things
change
much faster in the 21st century than they previously did.



What annoys a genealogists, historians & family
members doing research is the UK's insistence on sticking rigidly
to
the
"100 year rule" whereby the 1921 census will be released in 2022.
The
US &
Australian census (for example) are released under a "72 year
rule"
&
can
be researched up until 1940, & the US 1950 Federal census will be
released
in 2022.

In Australia, after the statistical data is collected, the original
census
data is destroyed, so there is no 72 year rule in the sense of
access
to all the original data on the census form.

How much does it cost to destroy

Very little.

and what is the point.

So the privacy of the individuals is preserved.

But the individual is most likely dead.

But plenty don’t want everyone knowing
what their parents or grandparents got up to.


and plenty more do.


That’s why different jurisdictions do the census differently.

Do you have a programme on TV called who do you think you are.


Yep,. and I said that in this thread. With
some of our own featuring in it too.

But what sort of things are that private ?

All sorts of things like whether your mum ran a brothel etc,
particularly if she had never been caught and convicted in court.


And those records are available.


Not if she hadn't got caught and convicted they arent.


Well if your mum admitted to running a brothel then it's hardly private.
if she didn;t put it down on the cenus then that infromation
wouldn't exist on the census.
Just like anything else.


Plenty of ours never were, because they paid off the cops.


That info isnl;t normally recorded on census's


We even had one of the state premiers, the equivalent
of a state PM who was an SP bookie during the war.


Is this what he put down on the census ?



Are you saying we can't find out how many people lived in say
sydney 100 years ago because the records have been destroyed ?

No, that is the statistical information that is the whole point of
the census and that data is available quite quickly after the census
is done and is always available after that. What is destroyed is the
filled out individual census forms that contain the information that
compromises the privacy of those who filled out the forms,

yuo mean like what jobs they do ?

All the information in the forms.


yuo can add fake information.


Sure, but we prefer to destroy the forms
after the statistical info has been gathered.


Why ?


IIRC in 2001 2% of those in Brighton we're Jedi's even
in australia there were Jedi's not as many obviously.


Yeah, we got the same result, forget the percentage.

I though jedi's wanted to keep such things secret


The world moved on, just like with poofters.

As I'm not sure what would get delete and what wouldn't.

All the forms are destroyed. What is kept is how many
who claimed to be butchers in that area etc, but not
what house they lived in etc.


Most people can find out what their grand parents


But not always, as has been shown in that magnificent TV series.


Yes so destroying the census doesn't make much sense.



but down on their employment details when they got married.
So deleting the cenus records would be pointless.


Not with those whose grandparents want to keep some info secret
and plenty do, particularly with illegitimate brats and multiple wives.


So don't put them on the census.


One in that magnificent series discovered that their dad had
lots of other wives that no one knew about, forget the total now.


So how was that found out ?




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