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Old February 12th 20, 12:07 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 09:30:18 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian


.... but the results would be amusing. Characters like Lord Snotblogger would turn out to have many residences.

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Old February 12th 20, 12:13 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 08:12:55 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?


if I were checking this forms or wrote software to do it's I'd mark these individuals down as mentally deficient.


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Old February 12th 20, 12:16 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 10:39, NY wrote:
"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" wrote in
message ...
On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:

snip
I think the offence is failing to provide *any* information as well as
returning false information, so you should expect it to be chased-up (if
they have the time, which is what you're banking on).


But you have to sign the form in the box which states something along
the lines of "I the undersigned accept that I will be liable to a fine
of £1000 if I have provided any information that is falsified or untrue"


No vote, though, for you or anyone who lives there. Maybe that doesn't
bother you. I wonder what happens if the head of the household refuses
to fill in the form but someone else who lives there (wife, children)
wants to vote. Is there a mechanism for someone who is not the head of
the household to submit just their name, to secure their right to vote.


Anyone that wants to vote can register on-line, it's their prerogative
and not my duty to divulge information THEY might wish to retain as
confidential or anonymous.

Even though I haven't filled in the council "request" for information a
polling card still comes to me, in my name at the same address
presumably because it's the last known and validated place of residence.

I'm obviously just too much of a goody-goody. I've never felt the
slightest inclination not to do what I regard as my moral (as well as
legal) duty by adding myself to the electoral roll and the census. I
want my details excluded from the publicly-viewable electoral roll, but
only because spam merchants are legally allowed to use this information
as a mailing list. If I had my way, I'd bang up every single person who
sends any unsolicited mail/phone-calls/email, irrespective of whether it
was fraudulent or honest - the sin is the mere act of sending it.


How can you complain about loss of privacy when you're openly admitting
to unquestionable compliance and acceptance?

The first time I refused to file the electoral roll was when the form
had very ambiguous wording with regards to the "open register" it used a
combination of double negatives and contradicted it's self there was no
way of knowing whether you were opting in to being off the list or on
the list. One section implied one thing and the other implied the
opposite.

Since then I've saved myself the hassle of endless spam and junk mail by
not volunteering ANY information. The "sin" of which you speak is that
of you personally gifting companies your personal data and the
authorities that actually distribute such data for profit.
The fault lies with you for not accepting responsibility for your own
privacy.

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Old February 12th 20, 12:20 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 09:25, Jeff Layman wrote:

Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).
Some countries have realised this and don't require a general census


That is one of those "yes in theory" kind of things, that tends to
collapse into chaos the moment you look at the implementation details.

The reality is that the information that exists is spread across
multiple databases - not necessarily all accessible centrally. All these
databases are "not connected" - not only physically - different
incompatible systems, different networks / repositories, but also
logically not connected - They are all using different key fields and
with no way of accurately joining records from one with another, with
any assurance that you have linked the correct records together. Even
when correctly joined there is no way of resolving conflicts between
them. You also have the difficulty that the data were collected for a
myriad of different purposes, so there is a high likelihood that the
answers are give in completely different contexts, and hence could be
considered "wrong" for census purposes.

If those countries can do it, why can't we?


Can they do it as well as we do it? Do they do it for the same purpose?



--
Cheers,

John.

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Old February 12th 20, 12:22 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 08:50, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

Why don't they just pay Google for the info?


Last time they suggested the credit reference agencies knew it all ...


So by extension, thanks to Experian's lack of web server patching
capability, so does the Chinese spy agency ;-)

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Cheers,

John.

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Old February 12th 20, 12:26 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

John Rumm wrote:

by extension, thanks to Experian's lack of web server patching
capability, so does the Chinese spy agency ;-)


Equifax too.

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Old February 12th 20, 12:33 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 09:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 08:28, Richard Conway wrote:
On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385

More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return.


Well assuming a team of people are being paid to manually enter any
tricky forms, that's even more money wasted then. Well done.


I do my best. But it is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall cost
of a census.

The Census Act 1920 was a short, but very well written piece of
legislation which makes it impossible to refuse to complete a census
request. Well, you /can/ refuse, but it leads to a conviction, fine, and
another request to complete the census form. Refuse that, and another
fine, etc (maybe eventually leading to even a "contempt of court"
conviction). It's obviously a really heinous crime in the eyes of the UK
Government.

Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).
Some countries have realised this and don't require a general census
(see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_and_housing_censuses_by_country#Methods _of_conducting_population_census).


I guess it's like a stocktake. A shop's sales system can track stock
deliveries and sales, but they still need to stocktake to account for
anything that's been missed.

If those countries can do it, why can't we? After every census, there is
talk of abolishing it, but it gets nowhere. Even talk of making the 2021
census fillable online misses the point; it's just not necessary as the
information is already out there. If anything sensible is required which
/isn't/ out there, well, great, ask for it - but specifically.

Resistance may be futile, but if upsets the "governmental Borgs" in any
way, it is worthwhile IMHO.


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Old February 12th 20, 01:05 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

"Martyn Barclay" wrote in message
news
The census is quite a valuable source of information for those doing
family genealogy. What annoys a genealogists, historians & family
members doing research is the UK's insistence on sticking rigidly to the
"100 year rule" whereby the 1921 census will be released in 2022. The US &
Australian census (for example) are released under a "72 year rule" & can
be researched up until 1940, & the US 1950 Federal census will be released
in 2022.


It is also scary how many errors creep into transcriptions of census and
birth/marriage/death records. My mum discovered this when she happened to
check her birth record in the index at Kew and noticed that her mother's
maiden name was recorded incorrectly: an O had been mis-read as a C (the
perils of flowery joined-up handwriting instead of capitals!). Kew confirmed
that this error also affected the full record from which a certificate would
be made. It took her a long time to get this officially corrected:
fortunately her father was alive at the time and was able to sign a
statement to the effect that his dead wife's maiden surname had been X, to
corroborate what was on the marriage certificate. As with many things, if
there's a discrepancy you need *three* sources of information to show which
one was the incorrect one; initially Kew said "how do we know that it wasn't
an error on your mother's marriage certificate rather than an error on your
birth certificate?".

On transcriptions of censuses done by genealogists, some of whom aren't too
good at reading old handwriting, it's amazing how many people in rural areas
were "daisy farmers", which should have been "dairy farmers" ;-) It got to
the stage that when my dad was writing a database data-entry program for
censuses, he had a list of common mis-readings which prompted a warning "are
you sure - get someone else to verify this".

I wonder what information will be released in 100 years' time for censuses
that I appear on. Will they tabulate and release all the answers to
questions about religion, income, sexual orientation and race? It would be
interesting if the census office released specimen entries for each of the
forthcoming censuses as a list of column headings, so you knew what was
coming. We'll find out in two years' time what info the 1921 census
contains.

Were there any cases when the wife was listed as head of the household even
though her husband was still alive and living at the same address - ie where
"Relation to head" was listed as "husband".


FindMyPast recently released a special "census" ("The 1939 Register"
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register) that was carried out when WWII
was expected, with the names of anyone who was now dead being listed and the
name of anyone still alive (supposedly) being redacted. My mum was amused to
see that her entry (as a young child) was not redacted so she was visible
alongside her (dead) parents' names. She was quite happy for it to remain
that way, but she contacted FindMyPast to alert them to the error, even if
she declined their offer to redact it from now on. Interestingly, her entry
lists her married name as well as her maiden name, so someone must have gone
through and retrospectively annotated the 1939 entry with much more recent
information from her 1960s marriage.

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Old February 12th 20, 01:30 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

Brian,

The older census results (when they were possibly more complete
and accurate) are a treasure trove for genealogists and
researchers.

Some people will not be happy to lose future editions.

If the government wants to know where all the people are,
they can always demand all the records from the phone companies
and supermarkets.

Andrew

On 12/02/2020 09:30, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian


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Old February 12th 20, 01:59 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default The last census?

"Pamela" wrote in message
...
My Mrs just had to renew her driving licence (because she's nearly 70
I think).


"I think"! Don't you know her age?


That reminds me of a very funny incident. When my grandpa married for the
second time, some years after my grandma died, my dad acted as my grandpa's
(his father-in-law's) best man (*). When it came to the signing of the
registers, when ages are shown on the marriage certificate, dad reports that
grandpa muttered to him "bloody hell, I didn't know she was that old". The
difference in ages between grandpa and his new wife was only a matter of a
year or so, but grandpa evidently though his new wife was slightly younger,
rather than slightly older, than him.

Caveat emptor ;=) Or "try before you buy" ;-)


(*) Probably because grandpa didn't have any male blood-relatives or friends
that he could ask, so he asked his son-in-law to be his best man.



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