Notice in my selection of these, some appear to cater for difference sizes
of the inner core insulation. And perhaps different sizes of the outer,
too.

Is there a way of specifying the correct ones, and what are the various
types called? Or does it actually matter, assuming no shorts?

--
*DON'T SWEAT THE PETTY THINGS AND DON'T PET THE SWEATY THINGS.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/03/2019 13:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Notice in my selection of these, some appear to cater for difference sizes
of the inner core insulation. And perhaps different sizes of the outer,
too.

Is there a way of specifying the correct ones, and what are the various
types called? Or does it actually matter, assuming no shorts?

Normally they spec the cable diameter in mm. If you get the wrong one,
they won't fit correctly or likely, at all. So for example, the "normal"
twist on plugs fit ~7mm co-ax, but are too large to fit on the 5mm
"shotgun" style figure eight pair cables. (having said that I have been
able to bodge those by increasing the effective diameter with a few
turns of insulating tape to make up some extra diameter)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/03/2019 13:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Notice in my selection of these, some appear to cater for difference sizes
of the inner core insulation. And perhaps different sizes of the outer,
too.

Is there a way of specifying the correct ones, and what are the various
types called? Or does it actually matter, assuming no shorts?

Connectors are suited to the cable

https://2.imimg.com/data2/SB/CT/MY-4...ial-cables.pdf

https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-lead...ype-connectors

--
Adrian C

I do not think the hole for the inner core matters too much, but the internal diameter to fit WF100/CT100 co ax should be about 6.5mm. However if you are mounting them on shotgun cable as supplied by Sky then the internal diameter is smaller, I cannot recall the actual size but obviously less than 6..5mm.

Richard

On 16/03/2019 13:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Notice in my selection of these, some appear to cater for difference sizes
of the inner core insulation. And perhaps different sizes of the outer,
too.

Is there a way of specifying the correct ones, and what are the various
types called? Or does it actually matter, assuming no shorts?



Satcure used to be so good but now they have closed and the website just
provides info. They once sent me some F Plugs which were a bit small.
When I complained they sent some some larger replacements FOC. I thin
silicone grease of maybe be vaseline might help to wind the plug onto
the cable.

--
Michael Chare

In article bb596666-92fa-4341-93f1-d07b168d21f5
@googlegroups.com, says...

I do not think the hole for the inner core matters too much,

Oh yes it does!

It doesn't help the OP if you post innacurate thoughts.

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

In article
,
says...


If you get the wrong one,
they won't fit correctly or likely, at all. So for example, the "normal"
twist on plugs fit ~7mm co-ax, but are too large to fit on the 5mm
"shotgun" style figure eight pair cables. (having said that I have been
able to bodge those by increasing the effective diameter with a few
turns of insulating tape to make up some extra diameter)

I've always respected the wisdom behind your posts until npw
and certainly never thought of you as being a cowboy but
recomending bodging a connection like this for the sake of a
few coppers for the correct connector has destroyed my faith
in you, I'm afraid.


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

In article ,
says...

Notice in my selection of these, some appear to cater for difference sizes
of the inner core insulation. And perhaps different sizes of the outer,
too.

Is there a way of specifying the correct ones, and what are the various
types called? Or does it actually matter, assuming no shorts?


The type description should tell you which cable it is
designed for - RG59, RG6, CT/WF100 or 'shotgun' cable.

Shotgun cable refers to two cables, in this context identical
with the sheaths moulded as one giving the appearance of a
double barrelled shotgun. I've found sorces of both WF100 and
RG6 shotgun cable but the type favoured by Sky installers will
almost certainly be WF65 or a cheap imitation.

The connector should be a snug fit for the inner dielectric
and foil screen. This should automatically ensure that the
connector also is the correct size for the outer sheath'

Here are the sizes for the various cables:


Type inner outer
RG59 3.8mm 6.1mm
RG6 4.8mm 6.9mm
CT100 4.6mm 6.7mm
WF65 2.9mm 4.6mm

As you can see, there is virtually no difference between
CT/WF100 and RG6 cable and the same connector should fit
either.

One further point. CT100 cable is semi airstaced and I don't
know if it is still available (it kinks easily) and a superior
foam filled type (F) is used these days. The first letter will
vary because it identifies the manufacturer and is usually W
or P. However, these are ofter called as well as sold using
the generic CT100 title although they are not!

If you are buying cable, buy WF100 rather than the cheaper
RG6. WF100 has a a guaranteed spec/performance wheas RG6 is a
type, not a spec and can vary widely, as Bill Wright has
posted at length in the past!

--

Terry

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On 16/03/2019 18:10, Terry Casey wrote:

If you get the wrong one,
they won't fit correctly or likely, at all. So for example, the "normal"
twist on plugs fit ~7mm co-ax, but are too large to fit on the 5mm
"shotgun" style figure eight pair cables. (having said that I have been
able to bodge those by increasing the effective diameter with a few
turns of insulating tape to make up some extra diameter)

I've always respected the wisdom behind your posts until npw
and certainly never thought of you as being a cowboy but
recomending bodging a connection like this for the sake of a
few coppers for the correct connector has destroyed my faith
in you, I'm afraid.


It's a perfectly legitimate thing to do, given that cable diameters vary
so much and are not standardised. I do it and I've never had a problem
with it. You have to use proper tape though with the correct adhesive.

Incidentally, at one time the cable size was indicated on the barrel of
the plug by the number of engraved circles, but that's fallen into disuse.

Bill

On 16/03/2019 13:35, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I do not think the hole for the inner core matters too much,

As long as a large cable isn't plugged into a standard socket, then
replaced with a smaller size.

Bill

On 16/03/2019 13:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Notice in my selection of these, some appear to cater for difference sizes
of the inner core insulation. And perhaps different sizes of the outer,
too.

Is there a way of specifying the correct ones, and what are the various
types called? Or does it actually matter, assuming no shorts?


As an aside to this discussion, crimp plugs are nicest.

Bill

In article ,
says...

On 16/03/2019 18:10, Terry Casey wrote:

If you get the wrong one,
they won't fit correctly or likely, at all. So for example, the "normal"
twist on plugs fit ~7mm co-ax, but are too large to fit on the 5mm
"shotgun" style figure eight pair cables. (having said that I have been
able to bodge those by increasing the effective diameter with a few
turns of insulating tape to make up some extra diameter)

I've always respected the wisdom behind your posts until npw
and certainly never thought of you as being a cowboy but
recomending bodging a connection like this for the sake of a
few coppers for the correct connector has destroyed my faith
in you, I'm afraid.


It's a perfectly legitimate thing to do, given that cable diameters vary
so much and are not standardised. I do it and I've never had a problem
with it. You have to use proper tape though with the correct adhesive.

Incidentally, at one time the cable size was indicated on the barrel of
the plug by the number of engraved circles, but that's fallen into disuse.


I'm aware that samples of the same basic type of cable can
have variations in the diameter of the outer sheath, Bill - I
think PF100 is smaller than WF100, for example, but by shotgun
cable I assumed the smaller size cable so we are looking at a
2.9mm inner dielectric passing through a nominal 4.8mm hole.
That is what I object to, Bill.

--

Terry

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https://www.avg.com

In article ,
says...


As an aside to this discussion, crimp plugs are nicest.


Agreed, Bill, particularly the modern types with fool proof
tooling.

The earlier type that was an entirely manual strip was a pain
and many installers estimate of strip lengths was way off!

I recall a headline in a US cable magazine when I first became
involved with public CATV networks in 1990 which read
something like:

"The humble F connector costs us 8¢ and $70 for a truck roll
if it is fitted badly."



--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 16/03/2019 18:10, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


If you get the wrong one,
they won't fit correctly or likely, at all. So for example, the "normal"
twist on plugs fit ~7mm co-ax, but are too large to fit on the 5mm
"shotgun" style figure eight pair cables. (having said that I have been
able to bodge those by increasing the effective diameter with a few
turns of insulating tape to make up some extra diameter)

I've always respected the wisdom behind your posts until npw
and certainly never thought of you as being a cowboy but
recomending bodging a connection like this for the sake of a
few coppers for the correct connector has destroyed my faith
in you, I'm afraid.

Well your call.

Keep in mind I am not a professional aerial rigger - I have a toolbox
dedicated to working on that kind of stuff, not a fully stocked out van.
So a couple of packs of different sized F connectors usually seem to
cope with all the installations I am called on to do.

Now I was not suggesting it is the right and proper way (hence why I use
the term "bodge"), but having said that, I can't see it's much of an
issue. If you think about it, you add tape, then fold the braid back
over the widened jacket. So you maintain full screening as before, and I
would be surprised if you could detect much difference in impedance from
a connection made with the slimmer barrel plug. All you are doing is
adding enough additional plastic to get a good interference fit with the
threads on the plug and the braid.

Also look at the bigger picture, lets say the **** really does hit the
fan and the wire pulls out of the plug, someone is going to get sub
optimal TV reception until they fix it, its not going to blow their nuts
off!








--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

On 16/03/2019 18:10, Terry Casey wrote:

If you get the wrong one,
they won't fit correctly or likely, at all. So for example, the
"normal"
twist on plugs fit ~7mm co-ax, but are too large to fit on the 5mm
"shotgun" style figure eight pair cables. (having said that I have
been
able to bodge those by increasing the effective diameter with a few
turns of insulating tape to make up some extra diameter)

I've always respected the wisdom behind your posts until npw
and certainly never thought of you as being a cowboy but
recomending bodging a connection like this for the sake of a
few coppers for the correct connector has destroyed my faith
in you, I'm afraid.


It's a perfectly legitimate thing to do, given that cable diameters vary
so much and are not standardised. I do it and I've never had a problem
with it. You have to use proper tape though with the correct adhesive.

Incidentally, at one time the cable size was indicated on the barrel of
the plug by the number of engraved circles, but that's fallen into
disuse.


I'm aware that samples of the same basic type of cable can
have variations in the diameter of the outer sheath, Bill - I
think PF100 is smaller than WF100, for example, but by shotgun
cable I assumed the smaller size cable so we are looking at a
2.9mm inner dielectric passing through a nominal 4.8mm hole.
That is what I object to, Bill.

But you can get the F connectors for that thinner cable.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 10:55:05 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:



But you can get the F connectors for that thinner cable.

Darn, and this senile cretin had to **** also in this thread! tsk

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

In article
,
says...


Keep in mind I am not a professional aerial rigger - I have a toolbox
dedicated to working on that kind of stuff, not a fully stocked out van.
So a couple of packs of different sized F connectors usually seem to
cope with all the installations I am called on to do.


Apologies for lengthy post.

Perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive about this because of an
experience I had many years ago when I was commissioning the
headend equipment for what was then ntl: for their DTV
rollout. We'd covered a large area of the country without any
major problems until we got to a small hub fed from the Poole
headend.

One feed had a terrible error performance and was completely
unuseable. We checked equipment at both ends - nothing found -
the passive components - nothing found.

Then we tried swapping the cable with another - the fault
moved with the cable - but what could be wrong with it? There
was no sign of any damage anywhere and it would have taken
some time to re-run it but it was our last day there and time
was running out.

Then a colleague spotted something - "come and look at this",
he said.

Now the cable we were using was Commscope RG59 Headend cable:
triple screened (one foil, two woven) and, unusually, it had a
particularly clear solid dielectric.

I've no idea what it was because solid polyethylene cables
have a very poor performance at UHF whilst this one had an
identical spec to a foam dielectric version. It was a very
heavy cable and incedibly flexible, thus making it ideal for
headend work.

Unfortunately, Commscope no longer make this cable and appear
now to just distribute cable from other manufacturers, so I
can't find a specification.

It always looked blue which, in fact was the colour of the
adhesive layer between it and the foil shielding.

In this case, however, one (the faulty one) didn't look quite
as blue as the other. So we cut the plug off. While one of us
prepared the cable and fitted a new F connector, the other
managed to remove the remains of the cable from the connector.

With a new connector, the fault cleared and that feed
performed spledidly. As for the dimembered cable, we found
that when it was being prepped, a small triangulat piece of
the screening foil had somehow been torn off one side.

Hence I remain very fussy about using the correct connector to
match the cable - apart from the prepping, of course.

I quite agree that some cables might have different outer
dimensions which might need compensating for but the inside of
the connector? That is entirely different!

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 17/03/2019 17:04, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


Keep in mind I am not a professional aerial rigger - I have a toolbox
dedicated to working on that kind of stuff, not a fully stocked out van.
So a couple of packs of different sized F connectors usually seem to
cope with all the installations I am called on to do.


Apologies for lengthy post.

Perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive about this because of an
experience I had many years ago when I was commissioning the
headend equipment for what was then ntl: for their DTV
rollout. We'd covered a large area of the country without any
major problems until we got to a small hub fed from the Poole
headend.

One feed had a terrible error performance and was completely
unuseable. We checked equipment at both ends - nothing found -
the passive components - nothing found.

Then we tried swapping the cable with another - the fault
moved with the cable - but what could be wrong with it? There
was no sign of any damage anywhere and it would have taken
some time to re-run it but it was our last day there and time
was running out.

Then a colleague spotted something - "come and look at this",
he said.

Now the cable we were using was Commscope RG59 Headend cable:
triple screened (one foil, two woven) and, unusually, it had a
particularly clear solid dielectric.

I've no idea what it was because solid polyethylene cables
have a very poor performance at UHF whilst this one had an
identical spec to a foam dielectric version. It was a very
heavy cable and incedibly flexible, thus making it ideal for
headend work.

Unfortunately, Commscope no longer make this cable and appear
now to just distribute cable from other manufacturers, so I
can't find a specification.

It always looked blue which, in fact was the colour of the
adhesive layer between it and the foil shielding.

In this case, however, one (the faulty one) didn't look quite
as blue as the other. So we cut the plug off. While one of us
prepared the cable and fitted a new F connector, the other
managed to remove the remains of the cable from the connector.

With a new connector, the fault cleared and that feed
performed spledidly. As for the dimembered cable, we found
that when it was being prepped, a small triangulat piece of
the screening foil had somehow been torn off one side.

Hence I remain very fussy about using the correct connector to
match the cable - apart from the prepping, of course.

I quite agree that some cables might have different outer
dimensions which might need compensating for but the inside of
the connector? That is entirely different!

I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242

The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.

SteveW

On 17/03/2019 19:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/03/2019 17:04, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


Keep in mind I am not a professional aerial rigger - I have a toolbox
dedicated to working on that kind of stuff, not a fully stocked out van.
So a couple of packs of different sized F connectors usually seem to
cope with all the installations I am called on to do.


Apologies for lengthy post.

Perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive about this because of an
experience I had many years ago when I was commissioning the
headend equipment for what was then ntl: for their DTV
rollout. We'd covered a large area of the country without any
major problems until we got to a small hub fed from the Poole
headend.

One feed had a terrible error performance and was completely
unuseable. We checked equipment at both ends - nothing found -
the passive components - nothing found.

Then we tried swapping the cable with another - the fault
moved with the cable - but what could be wrong with it? There
was no sign of any damage anywhere and it would have taken
some time to re-run it but it was our last day there and time
was running out.

Then a colleague spotted something - "come and look at this",
he said.

Now the cable we were using was Commscope RG59 Headend cable:
triple screened (one foil, two woven) and, unusually, it had a
particularly clear solid dielectric.

I've no idea what it was because solid polyethylene cables
have a very poor performance at UHF whilst this one had an
identical spec to a foam dielectric version. It was a very
heavy cable and incedibly flexible, thus making it ideal for
headend work.

Unfortunately, Commscope no longer make this cable and appear
now to just distribute cable from other manufacturers, so I
can't find a specification.

It always looked blue which, in fact was the colour of the
adhesive layer between it and the foil shielding.

In this case, however, one (the faulty one) didn't look quite
as blue as the other. So we cut the plug off. While one of us
prepared the cable and fitted a new F connector, the other
managed to remove the remains of the cable from the connector.

With a new connector, the fault cleared and that feed
performed spledidly. As for the dimembered cable, we found
that when it was being prepped, a small triangulat piece of
the screening foil had somehow been torn off one side.

Hence I remain very fussy about using the correct connector to
match the cable - apart from the prepping, of course.

I quite agree that some cables might have different outer
dimensions which might need compensating for but the inside of
the connector? That is entirely different!

I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242

The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.

For that type, it will be more critical certainly... however for the
more common type:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/philex-co...ck-of-10/17061

less so IME. If you do have a particularly narrow dielectric, then the
main problem is likely to be mechanical - i.e. the inner will have less
lateral support[1] and you will need to take more care inserting it into
the socket.

Although again one could add a couple of turns of tape round that as
well to better match the hole through the plug :-))


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/03/2019 17:04, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


Keep in mind I am not a professional aerial rigger - I have a toolbox
dedicated to working on that kind of stuff, not a fully stocked out van.
So a couple of packs of different sized F connectors usually seem to
cope with all the installations I am called on to do.


Apologies for lengthy post.

[none needed]

With a new connector, the fault cleared and that feed
performed spledidly. As for the dimembered cable, we found
that when it was being prepped, a small triangulat piece of
the screening foil had somehow been torn off one side.

OOI, was the bit of screen simply missing or was it lost elsewhere in
the connector?

Hence I remain very fussy about using the correct connector to
match the cable - apart from the prepping, of course.

I have no problem with that - especially in critical installations like
a CATV distribution point...

On the occasion I first needed to terminate a bit of sky installers
shotgun cable and did not have the small F plugs to hand, it was an
install for a mate who was too cheap to want a proper outlet box fixed
on the wall, and just wanted the end of the downlead from the LNB
connected to the back of the sky box. A slightly less critical
application I would say!

Yes fine details matter, but not always enough to actually impact
performance in every situation.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/03/2019 21:17, Terry Casey wrote:

I'm aware that samples of the same basic type of cable can
have variations in the diameter of the outer sheath, Bill - I
think PF100 is smaller than WF100, for example, but by shotgun
cable I assumed the smaller size cable so we are looking at a
2.9mm inner dielectric passing through a nominal 4.8mm hole.
That is what I object to, Bill.


Oh yeah, well, that would be taking the **** really. I'm taking about
small adjustments using one or at most two turns of tape. Apologies for
misunderstanding.

Bill

On 17/03/2019 17:04, Terry Casey wrote:

In this case, however, one (the faulty one) didn't look quite
as blue as the other. So we cut the plug off. While one of us
prepared the cable and fitted a new F connector, the other
managed to remove the remains of the cable from the connector.

A common problem is that a turning made when the thread is cut remains
in the plug and shorts it out. Always look inside the plug and even blow
through it.

Bill

On 16/03/2019 21:25, Terry Casey wrote:

"The humble F connector costs us 8¢ and $70 for a truck roll
if it is fitted badly."

I remember writing a letter that went something like, "We can only
recommend that every connector on the system is removed and refitted.
Otherwise reliability will be extremely poor." There were 300 outlets,
so at least 700 f plugs.

But why bother with f plugs anyway?
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/roguesgallery/003.shtml

Bill

In article , steve@walker-
family.me.uk says...


I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242

The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.


As do all F connectors which makes me wonder how John managed
to get such a thin cable into a normal size connector!

--

Terry

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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

In article
,
says...


For that type, it will be more critical certainly... however for the
more common type:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/philex-co...ck-of-10/17061

less so IME.

No, because the size of that inner tube will be the same,
whether the connector is a compression, screw on of crimp type
for the same type of cable because the size of the inner
dielectric is very carefully controlled (the characteristic
impedance of coax is determined by the ratio of the outside
diameter of the centre conductor to the inner diameter of the
screen - the foil in the case of these cables).

Alter the size and the cable will no longer be correctly
matched, leading to all sorts of problems.

The outer tube or crimp ring should be able to cater for
slight differences in outer sheath diameter, provided the
correct connector is used.

For example, the RG59 Headend cable I referred to would not
fit a normal RG59 connector because it needed a connector with
a crimp ring actually larger than a normal RG6/WF100 connector
to allow for the bulk of the additional screening!

--

Terry

---
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In article
,
says...

On 17/03/2019 17:04, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,

With a new connector, the fault cleared and that feed
performed spledidly. As for the dimembered cable, we found
that when it was being prepped, a small triangulat piece of
the screening foil had somehow been torn off one side.

OOI, was the bit of screen simply missing or was it lost elsewhere in
the connector?

It was over 20 years ago, which makes it difficult to remember
but it might have been folded back on itself - this could
happen, I suppose, if it snagged on the internal tube when it
was inserted.

Hence I remain very fussy about using the correct connector to
match the cable - apart from the prepping, of course.

I have no problem with that - especially in critical installations like
a CATV distribution point...

The distribution point out to the network, actually, so yes,
extremely critical.

However, I don't see that it would have made any difference if
it was on an individual CATV, Freeview, Freesat or Sky feed


On the occasion I first needed to terminate a bit of sky installers
shotgun cable and did not have the small F plugs to hand, it was an
install for a mate who was too cheap to want a proper outlet box fixed
on the wall, and just wanted the end of the downlead from the LNB
connected to the back of the sky box. A slightly less critical
application I would say!


If this was a Sky install, why didn't the installer terminate
the cable and, if it was pure DIY, what on earth was on the
LNB end of the cable?




--

Terry

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https://www.avg.com

On 18/03/2019 14:24, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


For that type, it will be more critical certainly... however for the
more common type:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/philex-co...ck-of-10/17061

less so IME.

No, because the size of that inner tube will be the same,
whether the connector is a compression, screw on of crimp type
for the same type of cable because the size of the inner
dielectric is very carefully controlled (the characteristic
impedance of coax is determined by the ratio of the outside
diameter of the centre conductor to the inner diameter of the
screen - the foil in the case of these cables).

Alter the size and the cable will no longer be correctly
matched, leading to all sorts of problems.

Perhaps I am missing something here, but it seems to me that you won't
be altering the spacing between inner and screen... at the point the
short length of dielectric is exposed, it is protruding beyond the foil
screen anyway - and the screen is now being provided by the threaded
part of the plug - the size of which is the same for all sizes of
connector.

The outer tube or crimp ring should be able to cater for
slight differences in outer sheath diameter, provided the
correct connector is used.

Indeed.

For example, the RG59 Headend cable I referred to would not
fit a normal RG59 connector because it needed a connector with
a crimp ring actually larger than a normal RG6/WF100 connector
to allow for the bulk of the additional screening!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On 18/03/2019 14:09, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , steve@walker-
family.me.uk says...


I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242

The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.


As do all F connectors which makes me wonder how John managed
to get such a thin cable into a normal size connector!

Easy...

(although you do realise that you have just made me work with that
horrid shotgun cable again!)

Take your thin co-ax and strip a length of outer as normal:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun1.jpg

(pictured beside a "normal" twist on F plug, and the smaller version
designed for this cable)

Now wind a few turns of insulating tape around the end of the cable
outer such that the edge of the tape aligns with the cut edge of the outer.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun3.jpg

Fold the braid back over the (slightly widened) outer.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun4.jpg

Strip the inner (leaving the nominal stub of 5mm dielectric protruding
beyond the cut outer)

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun5.jpg

Screw the plug onto the outer, it will now grip because the tape has
made the cable wide enough to fit. Finally trim (diagonal cut) the inner
wire to required length.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun6.jpg

The end result is a tight fitting plug, with the foil to inner spacing
maintained to the end, and the braid in good contact with the
connector's shell. The only difference from the proper connector being a
slightly larger annulus space between the hole in the end stop and the
foil/outside of the dielectric :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun7.jpg




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/03/2019 14:38, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...

On 17/03/2019 17:04, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,

With a new connector, the fault cleared and that feed
performed spledidly. As for the dimembered cable, we found
that when it was being prepped, a small triangulat piece of
the screening foil had somehow been torn off one side.

OOI, was the bit of screen simply missing or was it lost elsewhere in
the connector?

It was over 20 years ago, which makes it difficult to remember
but it might have been folded back on itself - this could
happen, I suppose, if it snagged on the internal tube when it
was inserted.

Hence I remain very fussy about using the correct connector to
match the cable - apart from the prepping, of course.

I have no problem with that - especially in critical installations like
a CATV distribution point...

The distribution point out to the network, actually, so yes,
extremely critical.

However, I don't see that it would have made any difference if
it was on an individual CATV, Freeview, Freesat or Sky feed


On the occasion I first needed to terminate a bit of sky installers
shotgun cable and did not have the small F plugs to hand, it was an
install for a mate who was too cheap to want a proper outlet box fixed
on the wall, and just wanted the end of the downlead from the LNB
connected to the back of the sky box. A slightly less critical
application I would say!


If this was a Sky install, why didn't the installer terminate
the cable and, if it was pure DIY, what on earth was on the
LNB end of the cable?

It was a typical sky install - so no effort spared!

IIRC the owner decided he wanted the cable feed into his AV furniture
more neatly than the installer had done it, and so cut the original
connectors off the end of the cable so he could fit them through a hole.
I can't recall now if they were originally crimped or had been discarded
- but they could not be reused for whatever reason.

I had intended to fit a wall mounted outlet for him and make up some
flyleads for the sat box in normal CT100 style cable, before his
parsimonious nature kicked back in, and asked if I could not just stick
connectors back on the cable ends like before.

I did not look at the dish end of that particular installation.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article
,
says...


Perhaps I am missing something here,

I think you are! I was trying to emphasize that the allowable
tolerance of the inner dielectric has to be much tighter than
for the outer sheath

but it seems to me that you won't
be altering the spacing between inner and screen... at the point the
short length of dielectric is exposed, it is protruding beyond the foil
screen anyway

Is it? it isn't apparent in your pictures which appear to show
the foil screen extending the full length of the dielectric,
as it should do. Perhaps you meant to say the exposed length
of the centre connector? In that case, the screening function
is the responsibility of the F female which completely
encloses it when the two are mated.


- and the screen is now being provided by the threaded
part of the plug

Which would be completely wrong. If you cut cleanly through
the cable and view it end on you have the centre conductor
surrounded by the dielectric with its foil covering. This is
the coaxial cable. Additional screening is just that and the
outer sheath protects the cable but they are not
electronically part of the coaxial cable.


the size of which is the same for all sizes of connector.

In which case, why did you find it neccesary to wind tape on
the cable to increase the size - and would you have to do the
same if you used the correct connector?

I'd love to know how you would get either of those connectors
to fit over the sheath of RG11 (10.3mm nominal).


--

Terry

---
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In article
,
says...


It was a typical sky install - so no effort spared!

IIRC the owner decided he wanted the cable feed into his AV furniture
more neatly than the installer had done it, and so cut the original
connectors off the end of the cable so he could fit them through a hole.
I can't recall now if they were originally crimped or had been discarded
- but they could not be reused for whatever reason.

I had intended to fit a wall mounted outlet for him and make up some
flyleads for the sat box in normal CT100 style cable, before his
parsimonious nature kicked back in, and asked if I could not just stick
connectors back on the cable ends like before.


He could have saved a bob or two if he'd had the brains to
drill out/ream the holes to take the connectors in the first
place!

Or was this a freeby?

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 18/03/2019 14:09, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , steve@walker-
family.me.uk says...


I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242

The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.


As do all F connectors which makes me wonder how John managed
to get such a thin cable into a normal size connector!

Whereas the crimp on ones have a flat, internal endstop, with a central
cylinder sticking up from that endstop and forcing its way up, inside
the cable itself, the screw-on type (or at least the ones that I have
seen) don't. They simply have a flat, internal endstop, with a hole through.

SteveW

On 18/03/2019 18:18, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


Perhaps I am missing something here,

I think you are! I was trying to emphasize that the allowable
tolerance of the inner dielectric has to be much tighter than
for the outer sheath

Of course - the outer does not have any significant effect on the cable
impedance, where as, the radius of the dielectric, and the material it
is made from does.

but it seems to me that you won't
be altering the spacing between inner and screen... at the point the
short length of dielectric is exposed, it is protruding beyond the foil
screen anyway

Is it? it isn't apparent in your pictures which appear to show
the foil screen extending the full length of the dielectric,

Indeed they do

(although I note that different plug manufacturers give subtly different
examples of best termination practice - some show removing the foil at
the point the outer is striped, and others continuing it a little
further up to (or at least close to) the point where the inner wire is
exposed - I favour the latter).

as it should do. Perhaps you meant to say the exposed length
of the centre connector? In that case, the screening function
is the responsibility of the F female which completely
encloses it when the two are mated.

Right, and that is the same size regardless of the size of the rest of
the plug.

In fact if you imagine preparing the cable as normal, and then
connecting it to the socket *without* any plug at all, you would still
have the same fundamental screening geometry. (ignoring the lack of
electrical continuity of the braid for the mo).

- and the screen is now being provided by the threaded
part of the plug

Which would be completely wrong.

Sorry, me being sloppy - provided by the threaded barrel of the socket
not the plug. Either way the spacing/material of screen to inner in the
socket will not exactly match those of the coax with either size cable,
however they should both (in combination) approximate the same
characteristic impedance.

If you cut cleanly through
the cable and view it end on you have the centre conductor
surrounded by the dielectric with its foil covering. This is
the coaxial cable. Additional screening is just that and the
outer sheath protects the cable but they are not
electronically part of the coaxial cable.

Yup, I agree with that.

the size of which is the same for all sizes of connector.

In which case, why did you find it neccesary to wind tape on
the cable to increase the size

Because the rear section of the F plug's (i.e. the bit with the knurled
outer and internal threads), only purpose is to facilitate attachment of
the plug to the cable. Its entirely outside of the screen on a foil
screened cable.

When sized for a normal CT 100 style cable, is too large to engage with
the outer jacket of a shotgun cable.

So for example, on the left some Webro WF100, and on the right some
Labgear R09W42, with the matching plugs:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun8.jpg

Cross section of the cables:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...-shotgun10.jpg


and would you have to do the
same if you used the correct connector?

No, because it would fit without. All the tape is doing on the smaller
cable is making the outer jacket wide enough to allow the plug to grip.

I'd love to know how you would get either of those connectors
to fit over the sheath of RG11 (10.3mm nominal).

You wouldn't - its insulating tape, not a TARDIS!

You can make a plug fit the "correct" size of cable or one a bit
smaller, you can't as easily make it fit one that is too large to enter
even enter to cable grip section at all.

What I am struggling with here, is what the actual thrust of your
argument is... is it that the hole though the end stop in the plug is a
different diameter? Vis:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun9.jpg

Since it seems to me that part of the plug is outside the foil screen
anyway, and so should not fundamentally change the properties of the coax.

Looking at the layers of the cable side on where it attaches to the F
plug you have something like:

==== knurled barrel of plug
---- braid folded back
pppp outer plastic jacket
---- braid
ffff foil
dddd dielectric
iiii inner copper conductor
dddd dielectric
ffff foil
---- braid
pppp outer plastic jacket
---- braid folded back
==== knurled barrel of plug


I am assuming that the characteristics of the coax are controlled by the
spacing of iiii from the foil, and what material dddd is made from.

So altering the arrangement to:

==== knurled barrel of plug
---- braid folded back
pppp outer plastic jacket - paddding
pppp outer plastic jacket - paddding
pppp outer plastic jacket
---- braid
ffff foil
dddd dielectric
iiii inner copper conductor
dddd dielectric
ffff foil
---- braid
pppp outer plastic jacket
pppp outer plastic jacket - paddding
pppp outer plastic jacket - paddding
---- braid folded back
==== knurled barrel of plug

Will not alter the critical defining characteristics of the coax at all.



----
====





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/03/2019 18:23, Terry Casey wrote:
In article
,
says...


It was a typical sky install - so no effort spared!

IIRC the owner decided he wanted the cable feed into his AV furniture
more neatly than the installer had done it, and so cut the original
connectors off the end of the cable so he could fit them through a hole.
I can't recall now if they were originally crimped or had been discarded
- but they could not be reused for whatever reason.

I had intended to fit a wall mounted outlet for him and make up some
flyleads for the sat box in normal CT100 style cable, before his
parsimonious nature kicked back in, and asked if I could not just stick
connectors back on the cable ends like before.


He could have saved a bob or two if he'd had the brains to
drill out/ream the holes to take the connectors in the first
place!

I don't think he had given it that much thought - it was just "I want to
thread this through, but the plugs are too big". So I said (without
having seen it!) cut em off, I will put a proper socket in anyway.

Or was this a freeby?

I was expecting him to pay for the materials...

When I told him what the wall mounted box, and a couple of modular F
connectors in it would cost, he decided he did not need it *that* neat.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/03/2019 23:27, Steve Walker wrote:
On 18/03/2019 14:09, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , steve@walker-
family.me.uk says...


I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242


The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.


As do all F connectors which makes me wonder how John managed
to get such a thin cable into a normal size connector!

Whereas the crimp on ones have a flat, internal endstop, with a central
cylinder sticking up from that endstop and forcing its way up, inside
the cable itself, the screw-on type (or at least the ones that I have
seen) don't. They simply have a flat, internal endstop, with a hole
through.

Yup, all the twist on ones I have seen have been like that - basically
like a pipe connector, with an internal flange to stop you inserting the
pipe too far.

The clearance hole just needs to be small enough to stop the outer
jacket going through, while being large enough to allow the the foil,
dielectric and inner to pass through.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/03/2019 15:59, John Rumm wrote:

Take your thin co-ax and strip a length of outer as normal:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun1.jpg

(pictured beside a "normal" twist on F plug, and the smaller version
designed for this cable)

Now wind a few turns of insulating tape around the end of the cable
outer such that the edge of the tape aligns with the cut edge of the outer.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun3.jpg

Fold the braid back over the (slightly widened) outer.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun4.jpg

Strip the inner (leaving the nominal stub of 5mm dielectric protruding
beyond the cut outer)

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun5.jpg

Screw the plug onto the outer, it will now grip because the tape has
made the cable wide enough to fit. Finally trim (diagonal cut) the inner
wire to required length.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun6.jpg

The end result is a tight fitting plug, with the foil to inner spacing
maintained to the end, and the braid in good contact with the
connector's shell. The only difference from the proper connector being a
slightly larger annulus space between the hole in the end stop and the
foil/outside of the dielectric :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...g-shotgun7.jpg

That's pretty much how I've been doing it since f plugs came on the UK
scene.

Bill

In article
,
says...

On 18/03/2019 23:27, Steve Walker wrote:
On 18/03/2019 14:09, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , steve@walker-
family.me.uk says...


I've only needed F-connectors at home and have preferred to use these
(inside and out):

https://www.screwfix.com/p/outdoor-c...ck-of-10/46242


The internals certainly do need to match the cable, as the inside edge
slides between the dialectric and the screen when you insert the cable.


As do all F connectors which makes me wonder how John managed
to get such a thin cable into a normal size connector!

Whereas the crimp on ones have a flat, internal endstop, with a central
cylinder sticking up from that endstop and forcing its way up, inside
the cable itself, the screw-on type (or at least the ones that I have
seen) don't. They simply have a flat, internal endstop, with a hole
through.

Yup, all the twist on ones I have seen have been like that - basically
like a pipe connector, with an internal flange to stop you inserting the
pipe too far.

The clearance hole just needs to be small enough to stop the outer
jacket going through, while being large enough to allow the the foil,
dielectric and inner to pass through.

I must admit that I've never used a screw on F connector or
even handled one - and I don't ever intend to!

--

Terry

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In article ,
says...

That's pretty much how I've been doing it since f plugs came on the UK
scene.

I don't know how far back you are going, Bill, but the first
time I saw them was when they were used for the internet
connection on the early IBM PCs in the early 80s.
--

Terry

---
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https://www.avg.com

On 19/03/2019 19:57, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

That's pretty much how I've been doing it since f plugs came on the UK
scene.

I don't know how far back you are going, Bill, but the first
time I saw them was when they were used for the internet
connection on the early IBM PCs in the early 80s.


Nothing like that. It would be when the Sky Amstrad dishes came along.

Bill

On 19/03/2019 19:57, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

That's pretty much how I've been doing it since f plugs came on the UK
scene.

I don't know how far back you are going, Bill, but the first
time I saw them was when they were used for the internet
connection on the early IBM PCs in the early 80s.

I don't recall any networking standard that used F connectors?

Early thin ethernet with BNC connectors on 50 ohm coax certainly


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/