On 10/02/2019 17:06, Rod Speed wrote:
"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/02/2019 06:13, Rod Speed wrote:
"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
David wrote:

Remind me again how this Smart meter is going to save me money?

It won't save money

Corse it will when having one allows him to use a time of use tariff
and save money by doing the higher power operations like the
washing machine and dishwasher when the electricity costs less.

We already have a thing called Economy 7 that lets us do that.

The difference is that time of use tariffs can be rather
fancier than that. Ours mostly have 3 time bands, not
just two, with different rates for each band.

Cheaper electricity from midnight to 7am or so; predictable so can be
used with storage and water heaters and run the washing machine
overnight. Smart meters could allow that in a much less predictable
way at the whim of the supplier who might decide that it would be
better to have our main meal in the evening rather than mid day.

In fact they dont do stuff like that.

....yet

--
Max Demian

Dave Liquorice used his keyboard to write :
No but they don't need to have access to your network or you to have
access to the meter. The "meter" just needs to squirt the consumption
data out at regular intervals. As USB is limited to 5 m unless you
start using active cables, the data ought come out of the remote
display box which is far more likely to be within USB range of a PC.
The only communication between the box and PC would be the low level
stuff to establish the USB link. The PC then just listens to the
incoming data stream (XML formated say). In the box any data sent by
the PC isn't connected to anything so is "harmless".

This is how my "Current Cost" useage monitor works (except it sends a
TTL serial data stream but they do a TTL to USB convertor). It sends
live data every few seconds, then every minute or five historical
data, broken into a number of periods. Last 24 hours, last week, last
month I think, I only log the live data and do my own processing.

Are you saying this is something you have actually managed to do, or
are proposing a way to do it?

Have you actually managed to tap into the remote display unit of an
ordinary smart meter?

Brian Gaff wrote :
To be fair though, the big cock up in smart meter design and availability is
not of the energy companies making. These were supposed to have been designed
years ago by a company who got the contract. Its been a comedy of errors
ever since.
Brian

When your are right - you are right ;o)

brought next idea :
Almost everyone would take the hit. The suppliers will be smiling at getting
50p a unit for a peak hour each day. That of course is the point. And they
will insist on blaming it entirely on the intransigent & sometimes
irresponsible consumer. Perfect.

That would not work well in a producing factory, they cannot just keep
stopping production.

"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/02/2019 17:06, Rod Speed wrote:
"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/02/2019 06:13, Rod Speed wrote:
"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
David wrote:

Remind me again how this Smart meter is going to save me money?

It won't save money

Corse it will when having one allows him to use a time of use tariff
and save money by doing the higher power operations like the
washing machine and dishwasher when the electricity costs less.

We already have a thing called Economy 7 that lets us do that.

The difference is that time of use tariffs can be rather
fancier than that. Ours mostly have 3 time bands, not
just two, with different rates for each band.

Cheaper electricity from midnight to 7am or so; predictable so can be
used with storage and water heaters and run the washing machine
overnight. Smart meters could allow that in a much less predictable way
at the whim of the supplier who might decide that it would be better to
have our main meal in the evening rather than mid day.

In fact they dont do stuff like that.

...yet

They wont, you watch. Its never going to be feasible to shift
those who work and thats the bulk of the population now.

Dave Liquorice used his keyboard to write :
Exactly, though one can reduce base load consumption by using more
effcient devices, such as CFL or LED bulbs instead of incandescant.

I cannot, I have already done that

On Sunday, 10 February 2019 10:40:41 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 01:42:52 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

We see a meter reader once a year or less, the cost must be
trivial.
We send 'real' readings by E-Mail monthly.

1 - 5 minutes per house, say average 3 mins at (guess) £10 an hour =
50p a year. Adding employment costs increases that, but not to anything
that makes it worth installing a smart meter for that purpose.

3 mins average to read a meter? Get real. Might just be able to
manage that from stepping over the threshold in and then back out.
But you need to add to that, walking back to van, looking up the next
place, driving to it, parking up, walking to door, waiting for
answer...

I figured where there are external meters, 1 min per is reasonable. Where houses are on somewhat generous plots, 5 mins is a fair estimate.


Round here 12 mins/meter (5/hour) would be more like it or
£2.00/meter. 25 million meters(?) = 50 million quid and about 3,000
meter readers to read every meter at least once a year. Plus cost of
maintenance. fuel, insurance, etc on 3,000 vans...

In a urban area you might get down to 5 mins/meter (12/hour) for one
of the "big six" or the supplier who was the original regional
company, but but not for all the other (50 odd?) smaller suppliers
with far lower "meter density".

£4 is still nowhere near enough to pay for new smart meters.


NT

Dave Liquorice explained on 10/02/2019 :
In a urban area you might get down to 5 mins/meter (12/hour) for one
of the "big six" or the supplier who was the original regional
company, but but not for all the other (50 odd?) smaller suppliers
with far lower "meter density".

I got an impression they shared meter readers between companies. I also
notice they don't go door to door, but rather they hit one or two
addresses, before driving so that might mean they don't share or that
they don't hit all addresses in one visit at the same time. All very
odd, because they still come/came here quite regularly even with the SM
reporting home and now with me reporting readings manually. So cost of
them coming out to read meters seems to be not much of an issue.

On Sunday, 10 February 2019 18:53:36 UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
tabbypurr brought next idea :

Almost everyone would take the hit. The suppliers will be smiling at getting
50p a unit for a peak hour each day. That of course is the point. And they
will insist on blaming it entirely on the intransigent & sometimes
irresponsible consumer. Perfect.

That would not work well in a producing factory, they cannot just keep
stopping production.

Works great for the supplier.


NT

critcher has brought this to us :
and you really believe the company will lower their charges to take account
of no meter reader.
LED lights were supposed to save money, but the company just put up their
tariffs to compensate for their loss.

Wholesale energy costs increased, in part to pay for all the
renewables.

"polygonum_on_google" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 10 February 2019 10:16:15 UTC, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/02/2019 06:13, Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
I've booked my install because it is a requirement for the tariff I
am on.

Nearly at the end they ask if you want information collecting every
30
minutes, weekly or monthly (IIRC).

Well, if I'm going to get any value at all I might as well have
enough
data to see daily trends.

Hang on, if I ask for 30 minute data capture I have to agree to EDF
using
the information to offer me services to improve my energy usage. So
reversing the privacy options that I have selected.

I'm having data collected monthly.

Remind me again how this Smart meter is going to save me money?

It won't save money

Corse it will when having one allows him to use a time of use tariff
and save money by doing the higher power operations like the
washing machine and dishwasher when the electricity costs less.

We already have a thing called Economy 7 that lets us do that. Cheaper
electricity from midnight to 7am or so; predictable so can be used with
storage and water heaters and run the washing machine overnight. Smart
meters could allow that in a much less predictable way at the whim of
the supplier who might decide that it would be better to have our main
meal in the evening rather than mid day.

Though given the number of reports of fires due to domestic
appliances, what once seemed an appealing way of saving
money is now a questionable approach on safety grounds.

Yes, I know that the number of fires is still small and the
number of people saving is large, but I am not at all sure
that I would now be happy allowing my washing machine
to run overnight. And most especially, not tumble dryer.

Not hard to have a decent alarm that wakes you.

You should have some anyway.

Thats like saying seat-belts are a good idea because you can drive
faster.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote

It only saves you money if you react to the real time readings of usage.

It also saves you money when you can use the tariff the supplier
will only allow those with smartmeters to use which is cheaper
than the tariff they charge if you dont have a smartmeter.

Similarly it's cheaper to go without a smart meter on those suppliers
who charge less if you don't have a smart meter. Your point above
could be repeated with *any* (spurious or otherwise) 'thing' that
means your supplier charges you less. It's not an argument for smart
meters.

--
Chris Green
·

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 18:42:53 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

This is how my "Current Cost" useage monitor works ...

Are you saying this is something you have actually managed to do, or
are proposing a way to do it?

That is how my "Current Cost" energy monitor works and has done since
Jan 2013. It's a proposal for how the data could be made available
from the display unit of a Smart Meter, with compromising the
security of the meter or the users LAN. But I'd be very surprised if
such a feature appeared the Great Unwashed will be happy with their
suppliers web thing and 30 min intervals.

Have you actually managed to tap into the remote display unit of an
ordinary smart meter?

No, don't need to. Already have the fuctionality and logging down to
1 minute intervals.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Graham." wrote in message
...


"polygonum_on_google" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 10 February 2019 10:16:15 UTC, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/02/2019 06:13, Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
I've booked my install because it is a requirement for the tariff I
am on.

Nearly at the end they ask if you want information collecting every
30
minutes, weekly or monthly (IIRC).

Well, if I'm going to get any value at all I might as well have
enough
data to see daily trends.

Hang on, if I ask for 30 minute data capture I have to agree to EDF
using
the information to offer me services to improve my energy usage. So
reversing the privacy options that I have selected.

I'm having data collected monthly.

Remind me again how this Smart meter is going to save me money?

It won't save money

Corse it will when having one allows him to use a time of use tariff
and save money by doing the higher power operations like the
washing machine and dishwasher when the electricity costs less.

We already have a thing called Economy 7 that lets us do that. Cheaper
electricity from midnight to 7am or so; predictable so can be used with
storage and water heaters and run the washing machine overnight. Smart
meters could allow that in a much less predictable way at the whim of
the supplier who might decide that it would be better to have our main
meal in the evening rather than mid day.

Though given the number of reports of fires due to domestic
appliances, what once seemed an appealing way of saving
money is now a questionable approach on safety grounds.

Yes, I know that the number of fires is still small and the
number of people saving is large, but I am not at all sure
that I would now be happy allowing my washing machine
to run overnight. And most especially, not tumble dryer.

Not hard to have a decent alarm that wakes you.

You should have some anyway.

Thats like saying seat-belts are a good idea because you can drive
faster.

Nothing like given that you should have decent alarms anyway.

Dave Liquorice formulated the question :
No, don't need to. Already have the fuctionality and logging down to
1 minute intervals.

OK, Thanks - How have you done that? Monitoring the flashing LED on the
meter?

harry wrote:

In Germany, you can be paid for using electricity

https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8141431.html
Was the negative price actually paid to end-users, or just paid by the
grid to the energy resellers?

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 23:06:54 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, don't need to. Already have the fuctionality and logging down
to
1 minute intervals.

OK, Thanks - How have you done that? Monitoring the flashing LED on the
meter?

Only one of our meters has a flashing LED...

Suggest that GIYF "current cost energy meter". B-)


--
Cheers
Dave.

On 10/02/2019 21:19, Chris Green wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote

It only saves you money if you react to the real time readings of usage.

It also saves you money when you can use the tariff the supplier
will only allow those with smartmeters to use which is cheaper
than the tariff they charge if you dont have a smartmeter.

Similarly it's cheaper to go without a smart meter on those suppliers
who charge less if you don't have a smart meter. Your point above
could be repeated with *any* (spurious or otherwise) 'thing' that
means your supplier charges you less. It's not an argument for smart
meters.


Which suppliers "charge less if you don't have a smart meter"?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

David wrote:

I may be wrong but I don't think you get to interrogate the meter directly.

I seem to remember that you are (for at least some suppliers) required to
go to their web site for the results.

Anyway, I have a local clamp on device courtesy of Eon many years ago.

Up to a point I was following the official documents as the
metering standards were discussed, but I eventually gave it up.

It was certainly originally specified that the consumer must be
able to have access to view and download the data locally.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon formulated on Monday :
It was certainly originally specified that the consumer must be
able to have access to view and download the data locally.

...and that was the first question I asked, when I was first offered a
SM. It seems ridiculously short sighted not to provide for that in the
spec..

Dave Liquorice wrote:

That is how my "Current Cost" energy monitor works and has done since
Jan 2013.

No, don't need to. Already have the fuctionality and logging down to
1 minute intervals.

Which of their components are you using?

I have only had 3 years from this rival unit:

https://www.eco-eye.com/product-monitor-solar-smartpv

It enabled me to keep an eye on my PV system and usage. I liked
being able to glance at the display and also look at the real
time graph on my PC. I could see the signature traces of most of
my loads, and judge appliance use accordingly.

Getting a good signal for the remote display can be tricky, and I
don't have thick walls or a long distance to cope with.

The accuracy was generally acceptable, though it sometimes seemed
to imagine PV generation at night, or spells of zero usage.

However, it has now stopped working completely, and shows no
signal even if I hold it right next to the transmitter. I might
try changing channels again, but I think it is probably dead. :-(

Maybe if I am looking to replace this, I might look for something
that will do both the dumping power to immersion trick and
provide monitoring data, but it does make me pessimistic about
payback/ life...

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

That is how my "Current Cost" energy monitor works and has done since
Jan 2013. It's a proposal for how the data could be made available
from the display unit of a Smart Meter, with compromising the
security of the meter or the users LAN. But I'd be very surprised if
such a feature appeared the Great Unwashed will be happy with their
suppliers web thing and 30 min intervals.

Have you actually managed to tap into the remote display unit of an
ordinary smart meter?

No, don't need to. Already have the fuctionality and logging down to
1 minute intervals.

Which of their bits of kit are you using?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On Sunday, 10 February 2019 19:18:38 UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
critcher has brought this to us :
and you really believe the company will lower their charges to take account
of no meter reader.
LED lights were supposed to save money, but the company just put up their
tariffs to compensate for their loss.

Wholesale energy costs increased, in part to pay for all the
renewables.

And Hinkley point

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:56:37 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:

That is how my "Current Cost" energy monitor works and has done
since
Jan 2013.

Which of their bits of kit are you using?

The transmitter, envi display and the TTL to USB converter.
--
Cheers
Dave.