Hi All,

I think cowboys have previously been at the wiring of my house - if I
briefly explain the setup would anyone care to pass comment on how bad
my mood should be? Also what sort of investigation and subsequent work
would you think appropriate.

I'm looking into this as I'm planning a new kitchen ASAP. I appreciate
I may have to call in the professionals(??) but I would like to
understand what is going on first.

The house has a new consumer unit which has to be good thing and I
have no problems with breakers tripping etc. Here is what each
breaker seems to control....

1)
Labelled: Shower
Rating: 16 amp
1 thin wire going in.
Controls:
garage -one dbl socket, extractor fan, light in downstairs loo
(spurs off of spurs etc)
landing - one dbl socket
study - two dbl sockets
spare - one dbl socket
bedroom - three dbl sockets

2)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 32 amp
2 thin wires
Controls:
living room - 3 dbl sockets
kitchen - 2 dbl sockets

3)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 40 amps
1 thick wire
Controls:
Kitchen cooker socket (hob and oven are both gas - control
igniters only)
Shower

4)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Upstairs lights

5)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Downstairs lights


Many thanks,

Martin.

On 27 Feb 2004 14:37:23 -0800, (Martin) wrote:

Hi All,

I think cowboys have previously been at the wiring of my house - if I
briefly explain the setup would anyone care to pass comment on how bad
my mood should be? Also what sort of investigation and subsequent work
would you think appropriate.

I'm looking into this as I'm planning a new kitchen ASAP. I appreciate
I may have to call in the professionals(??) but I would like to
understand what is going on first.

The house has a new consumer unit which has to be good thing and I
have no problems with breakers tripping etc. Here is what each
breaker seems to control....

1)
Labelled: Shower
Rating: 16 amp
1 thin wire going in.
Controls:
garage -one dbl socket, extractor fan, light in downstairs loo
(spurs off of spurs etc)
landing - one dbl socket
study - two dbl sockets
spare - one dbl socket
bedroom - three dbl sockets

That looks like a radial circuit. There should be a fused spur
somewhere with a 3\5A fuse controlling the ex fan and wc light.
2)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 32 amp
2 thin wires
Controls:
living room - 3 dbl sockets
kitchen - 2 dbl sockets

Looks right.
3)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 40 amps
1 thick wire
Controls:
Kitchen cooker socket (hob and oven are both gas - control
igniters only)
Shower

Looks like this is totally wrong. There should be a seperate circuit
for cooker and shower, mast probably 32A each.
4)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Upstairs lights

Seems fine.
5)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Downstairs lights

Seems fine.
I think it needs some attention, the labelling is an annoyance if
nothing else. The circuit controlling the cooker and shower is totally
wrong and should be corrected *immediately*.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

Lurch wrote:

I think it needs some attention, the labelling is an annoyance if
nothing else. The circuit controlling the cooker and shower is totally
wrong and should be corrected *immediately*.

Additional question - is there a shower fitted? If so what is it rated
at (i.e. how many kW)?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27 Feb 2004 14:37:23 -0800, Martin wrote:


For a start labelling is all to cock, easy enough to sort out...

1)
Labelled: Shower
Rating: 16 amp
1 thin wire going in.
Controls:
garage -one dbl socket, extractor fan, light in downstairs loo
(spurs off of spurs etc)
landing - one dbl socket
study - two dbl sockets
spare - one dbl socket
bedroom - three dbl sockets

This is rather odd. All those sockets should be on a 32A ring. Though
a 16A radial is within the regs I think provided the cable is 2.5mm^2.
I take it you don't actually have an electrically heated shower. I
wonder if someone has broken the ring fitting those spurs. Time to
trace the wiring if you can. The spurs off spurs is suspicious and
needs to be corrected anyway.


2)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 32 amp
2 thin wires
Controls:
living room - 3 dbl sockets
kitchen - 2 dbl sockets

Seems OK. Downstairs ring main.


3)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 40 amps
1 thick wire
Controls:
Kitchen cooker socket (hob and oven are both gas - control
igniters only)
Shower

Wrong label. Should be "Cooker". Position 3 may be dubious, it is
recomended that heavy loads like cookers and showers are placed in the
CU as near to the main switch as possible.


4)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Upstairs lights

Seems OK, label could be better "Upstairs Lights".

5)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Downstairs lights

Seems OK, label could be better "Downtairs Lights".

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

(Lurch) wrote in message ...
On 27 Feb 2004 14:37:23 -0800, (Martin) wrote:

Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 40 amps
1 thick wire
Controls:
Kitchen cooker socket (hob and oven are both gas - control
igniters only)
Shower

Looks like this is totally wrong. There should be a seperate circuit
for cooker and shower, mast probably 32A each.

snip

The circuit controlling the cooker and shower is totally
wrong and should be corrected *immediately*.

Surely this isn't *that* bad, given that the OP has all-electric
cooking? Agreed it's wrongly done, given that it would be possible
for him to go out and buy an electric oven and plug it in to the same
circuit as the shower; however given that constraint, it doesn't look
like an urgent problem. (And does he actually have an electric
shower?!)

Presumably at some time in the past, when the shower was fitted, the
fitter would have found the 40A circuit with no oven on the end, and
decided to hook the shower up to that rather than install a new
circuit?

David

On 28 Feb 2004 02:34:55 -0800, Lobster wrote:

The circuit controlling the cooker and shower is totally
wrong and should be corrected *immediately*.

And shower? Reads OPs post again, ah **** poor formating "hid" the
word shower. My previous post in respect of this section is wrong.

Surely this isn't *that* bad, given that the OP has all-electric
cooking?

The OP has all gas cooking and from that perpesctive it's "safe" but
definately not good practice or in line with the regulations.

Presumably at some time in the past, when the shower was fitted, the
fitter would have found the 40A circuit with no oven on the end, and
decided to hook the shower up to that rather than install a new
circuit?

As the OP said a cowboy. The shower must have it's own circuit and the
electric cooker point another. Is there a spare way in the existing CU
to add another MCB. I suspect not as changing the CU would have put up
the cost of the shower installation and the sharing of cooker/shower
MCB a cheap bodge work around.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ill.com...
On 27 Feb 2004 14:37:23 -0800, Martin wrote:


For a start labelling is all to cock, easy enough to sort out...

1)
Labelled: Shower
Rating: 16 amp
1 thin wire going in.
Controls:
garage -one dbl socket, extractor fan, light in downstairs loo
(spurs off of spurs etc)
landing - one dbl socket
study - two dbl sockets
spare - one dbl socket
bedroom - three dbl sockets

This is rather odd. All those sockets should be on a 32A ring. Though
a 16A radial is within the regs I think provided the cable is 2.5mm^2.
I take it you don't actually have an electrically heated shower. I
wonder if someone has broken the ring fitting those spurs. Time to
trace the wiring if you can. The spurs off spurs is suspicious and
needs to be corrected anyway.


2)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 32 amp
2 thin wires
Controls:
living room - 3 dbl sockets
kitchen - 2 dbl sockets

Seems OK. Downstairs ring main.


3)
Labelled: Sockets
Rating: 40 amps
1 thick wire
Controls:
Kitchen cooker socket (hob and oven are both gas - control
igniters only)
Shower

Wrong label. Should be "Cooker". Position 3 may be dubious, it is
recomended that heavy loads like cookers and showers are placed in the
CU as near to the main switch as possible.


4)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Upstairs lights

Seems OK, label could be better "Upstairs Lights".

5)
Labelled: lights
Rating: 6 amps
1 thin wire
Controls:
Downstairs lights

Seems OK, label could be better "Downtairs Lights".

Hi All,

A wealth of good advice as always!!

Just checked the shower and it is rated at 9.5KW so a 40amp breaker I
understand to be adequate.

Howzabout if do the following when I fit my kitchen?


1) Label it correctly!!
2) Remove the cooker socket from the 40 amp breaker and check it!
3) Sort out the WC light, fan and garage onto a fused connection(s).
4) Try to trace what is going on with the 16amp (presumed radial)
wiring and sort out if required.
4) Add the additional sockets required for the kitchen to the
downstairs ring as there isn't much on it at the moment. This would
include a new (13amp rated) electric fan oven. I've put in a ring main
for a kitchen in the past so the mechanics of it I'm fairly
comfortable with. I was tempted to put a seperate ring in for the
kitchen this time but the CU is approx 40 feet away and routing the
cable would involve chasing out walls (again!) and lifting the floor
in three seperate room and a landing. In this case as there are only 5
dbl sockets on the downstairs ring so would this be OK?

Incidentally, how would I earth bond the new stainless sink and
associated pipework? Incoming water main is plastic.

Many thanks,

Martin.

In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
On 27 Feb 2004 14:37:23 -0800, Martin wrote:


For a start labelling is all to cock, easy enough to sort out...

1)
Labelled: Shower
Rating: 16 amp
1 thin wire going in.
Controls:
garage -one dbl socket, extractor fan, light in downstairs loo
(spurs off of spurs etc)
landing - one dbl socket
study - two dbl sockets
spare - one dbl socket
bedroom - three dbl sockets

This is rather odd.

A bit, but nothing that wrong with it.

All those sockets should be on a 32A ring.

They might be better, but not a case of 'should' really. Assuming they
come within the floor area recommendations (20 Sqm?)

They don't look as if they are serving areas where they are likely to be
presenting a large load - assuming nothing like an 3 kW electric fan
heater is going to be often used. My upstairs ring (as it is now) spent
about 18m months as a radial pending completion of the circuit. The
biggest load they regularly get is the vacuum cleaner I should think.

Though as someone else pointed out the fan and light should be on a
fused spur.

Though
a 16A radial is within the regs I think provided the cable is 2.5mm^2.

It could be probably be uprated to 20A.

snip
The spurs off spurs is suspicious and
needs to be corrected anyway.

Why? it's a radial circuit - it is effectively all spurs.

My only concern here is what size are we talking about with these 'thin'
wires - the op has referred to thin wires as being used in the lights
the rings and the radial.
--
Chris French, Leeds

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:13:21 +0000, chris French wrote:

All those sockets should be on a 32A ring.

They might be better, but not a case of 'should' really. Assuming
they come within the floor area recommendations (20 Sqm?)

I used "should" not "must"... If only because people expect sockets to
be on a 32A ring these days and thus expect to be able to load that
ring up to 7+kW... And if it is 20sqM then thats just about a single
room or do you mean a space 20m x 20m = 400m^2?

They don't look as if they are serving areas where they are likely
to be presenting a large load - assuming nothing like an 3 kW
electric fan heater is going to be often used.

The OP might not but future owners?

My only concern here is what size are we talking about with these
'thin' wires - the op has referred to thin wires as being used in
the lights the rings and the radial.

That bothered me a little bit as well.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ill.com...
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:13:21 +0000, chris French wrote:

All those sockets should be on a 32A ring.

They might be better, but not a case of 'should' really. Assuming
they come within the floor area recommendations (20 Sqm?)

I used "should" not "must"... If only because people expect sockets to
be on a 32A ring these days and thus expect to be able to load that
ring up to 7+kW... And if it is 20sqM then thats just about a single
room or do you mean a space 20m x 20m = 400m^2?

They don't look as if they are serving areas where they are likely
to be presenting a large load - assuming nothing like an 3 kW
electric fan heater is going to be often used.

The OP might not but future owners?

My only concern here is what size are we talking about with these
'thin' wires - the op has referred to thin wires as being used in
the lights the rings and the radial.

That bothered me a little bit as well.

Hi,

Sorry but I should of been more specific about the cables used.

Thin wire - looks like 2.5mm
Thick wire - looks errr....thicker. 4mm?? 6mm??

Perhaps my slightly revised plan of action should be ...

1) Label it correctly!!
2) Remove the cooker socket from the 40 amp breaker and check it!
3) Sort out the WC light, fan and garage onto a fused connection(s). I
want to put a fused connection in the garage anyway for other reasons.
4) Look into converting 16amp (presumed radial)
wiring into a proper circuit.
5) Add the additional sockets required for the kitchen to the
downstairs ring as there isn't much on it at the moment. This would
include a fused connection for an electric fan oven.

What do you reckon?

On 29 Feb 2004 01:12:50 -0800, Martin wrote:

1) Label it correctly!!
Yep.

2) Remove the cooker socket from the 40 amp breaker and check it!
Well as another bodge yes but the position of the outlet will mean
that it may well get used for a "full power" cooker at some future
date. It really ought to have it's own feed from the CU in suitable
cable and rated MCB. So should the shower.

3) Sort out the WC light, fan and garage onto a fused connection(s).
I want to put a fused connection in the garage anyway for other
reasons.
Be better if the garage sockets where RCD protected. Most likely place
to be using power tools or taking a fed out into the garden. Note:
that RCDs need thinking about if you have more than one, they should
not be connected in series without thinking.

4) Look into converting 16amp (presumed radial) wiring into a proper
circuit.
Yep.

5) Add the additional sockets required for the kitchen to the
downstairs ring as there isn't much on it at the moment. This would
include a fused connection for an electric fan oven.
Personally I'd go for a separate ring for the kitchen, it's where most
heavy domestic loads and 7kW is fairly easy to acheive. 3kW (fast
heat) kettle, washing machine heating water 2kW, tumble dryer drying
previous load 2kW or toaster or microwave or... doesn't leave you much
room for everything else downstairs.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Incidentally, how would I earth bond the new stainless sink and
associated pipework? Incoming water main is plastic.

You don't need supplementary bonding. Supplementary bonding in a kitchen may
reduce safety under certain conditions.

The pipework in the house should be main bonded on entry to the building,
but only if it is metal. This requires a thick unbroken cable from the entry
point to the main earthing terminal.

Christian.

In message ,
(Lobster) wrote:


Presumably at some time in the past, when the shower was fitted, the
fitter would have found the 40A circuit with no oven on the end, and
decided to hook the shower up to that rather than install a new
circuit?


Found a similar situation at a house recently. There was a 4-way CU
(lights/immersion/sockets/32A shower) and the new owner found the oven
and 6.7kW hob plugged into an extension lead. The shower MCB had
previously been supplying a cooker point but, although I found the cable
as it ran under the floorboards, it disappeared into a newly-tiled wall
so instead of a simple reconnection job (was fitting a larger CU anyway)
I had to run a completely new circuit for the hob and oven :-(

I think this was a DIY-er cowboy rather than a pro though.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... BS (bee ess): n. An uninformed statement.

In message om,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:13:21 +0000, chris French wrote:

All those sockets should be on a 32A ring.

They might be better, but not a case of 'should' really. Assuming
they come within the floor area recommendations (20 Sqm?)

I used "should" not "must"... If only because people expect sockets to
be on a 32A ring these days and thus expect to be able to load that
ring up to 7+kW... And if it is 20sqM then thats just about a single
room or do you mean a space 20m x 20m = 400m^2?


A radial in 2.5mm2 protected by a 20A breaker can serve up to 50m2 (50
square meters, i.e. about half the floor area of a four bed semi) with
as many sockets as you like, and whatever topology ("spurs on spurs")
takes your fancy. See the On Site Guide table 8A (p151).

If you want a 32A circuit it either has to be a radial as above, but
wired in 4mm2 cable, or a ring circuit wired in 2.5mm2. A 32A/4mm2
radial can serve 75sqm, a 32A/2.5mm2 ring 100sqm.

HTH

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... A clean desk is a sign of a -sick- mind

Martin Angove wrote:
Found a similar situation at a house recently.
I think this was a DIY-er cowboy rather than a pro though.

How is life as a pro?

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

In message ,
"Toby" wrote:

Martin Angove wrote:
Found a similar situation at a house recently.
I think this was a DIY-er cowboy rather than a pro though.

How is life as a pro?


So-so. The electrics I can handle, it's the "making good" I have trouble
with :-)

Not done any advertising so far (though I have a little planned) but
people keep ringing me up and asking me to do work.

As others advised when I first said I was thinking of this, it is darned
hard work, and my first few estimates were wildly inaccurate, but I'm
getting the hang of it now. I might even be in a "positive cash flow"
situation soon.

I've come up with an interesting angle though which I might persue - it
avoids a lot of the hassle jobs: advertise as a service for DIY-ers. I
would "consult" - doing design and calculations, checking and advising
if required and testing afterwards. I wonder if this would work?

Thanks for remembering...

....and if anyone needs my services, I'm in the Caerphilly
(/valleys/Cardiff) area ;-). Email to the address given here is rarely
read, but if you swap "ae" for "MJAngove" you might get a response.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... AAAAA - American Association Against Acronym Abuse

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ill.com...
On 29 Feb 2004 01:12:50 -0800, Martin wrote:

4) Look into converting 16amp (presumed radial) wiring into a proper
circuit.
Yep.

If youre putting heavy loads on it, yes, but if it isnt running any
3kW heating devices then youre unlikely to need to upgrade it. Heavy
loads would include washing machine, 3kW kettle (but not a 1.5kW one),
3kW fan heater, dishwasher, 6 slice toaster, basically anything that
involves the full 3kW of heat output.

You could run a whole flat on 13A if you pick your appliances with
enough care. Dont, but its been done.


Regards, NT