On 02/12/2018 12:57, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 December 2018 12:06:07 UTC, RJH wrote:
On 02/12/2018 04:08, tabbypurr wrote:


Quite. One person recently showed zero grasp of what it would be like to live on wind & solar when 98% of the generating capacity went down. They thought the lighting would all stay on.


Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind systems
really have no electricity storage or alternative source?

I was talking of nationwide systems, not single dwelling. Battery storage on that scale is impossible.


Ah, OK, thanks. I think there are town-scale systems of storage in use,
but they look quite Heath Robinson to me, and need particular terrain.


Still isnt the idea of getting a smart meter into every household is so
the skill of personal demand
management is learned my the masses or they will pay exorbitantly in the
future to continue to switch things on at the most conventional time like
we can now.


Difficult to predict - there's no one rationality. Some will try to save
money, some save 'the planet', some it'll appeal to avoiding waste, some
will set an arbitrary level of consumption and ramp up to that. Etc. Who
does what and why will unfold once decent scale research has been done
in the UK.

I can't see users changing their electricity consumption merely because they have a meter that expresses power use in 2 ways rather than 1


Which is another possibility.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 02/12/2018 13:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 12:06:04 +0000, RJH wrote:

On 02/12/2018 04:08, wrote:


Quite. One person recently showed zero grasp of what it would be like to live on wind & solar when 98% of the generating capacity went down. They thought the lighting would all stay on.


Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind systems
really have no electricity storage or alternative source?



Apart from the UK's pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig, there is
no electricity storage on the UK grid, and those pumped storage
systems will only supply electricity for a few hours before they run
dry, and anyway they couldn't meet the power demand of the whole
country even running flat out. Most, if not all of the appropriate
sites for pumped storage are already used, so the options for
constructing more of them are close to non-exist ant.

There are alternative sources, such as nuclear or closed-cycle gas
turbines, but in a wholly green scenario these would be shut down and
dismantled. But if you have to invest in alternative dispatchable
sources to back up wind and solar WTWDBATSDS, with sufficient capacity
to supply the whole country for several days, why waste money on W&S?

At the moment, as I understand it, W&S is just there to fill a gap in a
reasonably sustainable way. I don't think anybody of note is suggesting
we go 'full green' until this issue of variable demand/supply and
storage has been solved.

Just use the alternative source 24/7. The nuclear option is the only
viable one.


Yes, you and others keep saying. I can't seem to nail down the pros and
cons in a consistent way - above my pay grade sort of thing.

--
Cheers, Rob

Tim Streater wrote:

THERE IS NO STORAGE FOR ELECTRICITY ON THE GRID. AND NONE IS
REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE.

There. That clear enough for you?

Well there is Dinorwig, which can provide 2GW for 8 hours, IIRC. But
that's all.

Aren't there are some tiny "battery barns"?

On 02/12/2018 13:46, RJH wrote:
On 02/12/2018 12:57, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 December 2018 12:06:07 UTC, RJHÂ* wrote:
On 02/12/2018 04:08, tabbypurr wrote:


Quite. One person recently showed zero grasp of what it would be
like to live on wind & solar when 98% of the generating capacity
went down. They thought the lighting would all stay on.


Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind systems
really have no electricity storage or alternative source?

They do, solar and wind installs in the UK tend to run on *gas* most of
the time!

I was talking of nationwide systems, not single dwelling. Battery
storage on that scale is impossible.


Ah, OK, thanks. I think there are town-scale systems of storage in use,
but they look quite Heath Robinson to me, and need particular terrain.

The world's largest grid connected battery based storage system is the
one Tesla installed in Australia. That has a reported capacity of 129
MWh, and a maximum output of 100MW. Apparently installed at a cost of
about £50M.

To put that in a UK context, if we had over 400 installations like that,
we could keep the grid going at full chat for about an hour. (assuming
we had something to charge them with!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On 02/12/2018 12:06, RJH wrote:
On 02/12/2018 04:08, wrote:


Quite. One person recently showed zero grasp of what it would be like
to live on wind & solar when 98% of the generating capacity went down.
They thought the lighting would all stay on.


Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind systems
really have no electricity storage or alternative source?

They have none at all.


... wouldn't surprise me if the main motivation was/is
profit in the short term, and data sales into the future.

No, its control amd sacking meter readers



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On 02/12/2018 13:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
Apart from the UK's pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig, there is
no electricity storage on the UK grid,

You would be surprised how much energy is in the rotating mass of all
those turbines and alternatiors.


Energy that is simply not in solar panels and windmills but needs to be
put there using complex circuitry and batteries...

--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

On 02/12/2018 13:52, RJH wrote:
At the moment, as I understand it, W&S is just there to fill a gap in a
reasonably sustainable way. I don't think anybody of note is suggesting
we go 'full green' until this issue of variable demand/supply and
storage has been solved.
It cannopt be solved without adding huge cost to a generation scenario
that is already 2-5 times more expensive than nuclear.

In terms of economocally viable low carbon generatuion nuclear is not
an option.

It's the *ONLY* option ... for the UK...


--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

"Rod Speed" Wrote in message:


"Jim GM4DHJ ...??" wrote in message
news

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 1 December 2018 10:37:01 UTC, Marland wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 01/12/2018 09:28, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 00:48:12 -0800, tabbypurr wrote:

On Saturday, 1 December 2018 08:31:58 UTC, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Has anybody who has not got a water meter ever thought about
installing
a small hydro electric generator to reap back some of the water
and
lecy bills?

they were available in the 1940s. One could perhaps charge
batteries
with one eventually. If you have electricity they're pointless.

Rudyard Kipling had one at his house in Sussex. Reportedly, he asked
an
expert (Sir William Willcox) for advice. Willcox had just completed
what
he described as "a trifling affair on the Nile" - the first Aswan
Dam.

He got enough power to charge batteries for lighting each evening,
which
was what he wanted.


Some of it was still in place when I visited the house many years
ago,
including the cast iron turbine - which I remember as it surprised me
as
I'd been expecting a water wheel would have been used in (I think)
1902.





Noting we have moved away from the OPs suggestion into more practical
territory the use of Turbines became popular around that period to
replace
Water Wheels on many mills around that time.
Near to where I grew up a mill that by the time I knew it in the mid
60's
was no longer milling but had two turbines in place, one had been
converted
in the 40's to drive a DC generator but that by the time I knew it had
fallen into disuse with the coming of mains electric.
I last visited the site about 5 years ago and the turbines were still
in
place but the supply leat and sluices
had collapsed beyond easy repair and due to the sale of land leat and
mill
are now in different ownership making any attempt to reinstate
difficult.
Can't access the location now as the person I knew there has died.


Not too far from where I am there is a functioning Mill with turbines
installed in 1904 that is open to the public.
https://sturminsternewton-museum.co.uk/mill/

I have to say it just doesn't seem as atmospheric as one with a
traditional
water wheel,fortunately there is one of those not far away either and
we
get our flour from them.
https://www.alderholtmill.co.uk

Production was halted this summer due to water shortage so anyone
depending
on small scale hydro should account for that possibility.
And that is before you work out how such a mill may only provide around
10
kilowatt so people used to mains supply would have to use personal
demand
management in the household.

GH

10kW is about 40A, so demand management would not be a challenge. I
still remember a load of flats each on a 5A supply. That was easy enough
to live with once you knew how, but I don't think any of the occupants
did.

I ran the entire house on a 10A supply, builders temporary supply,
when I had moved into the house I was building as soon as that
was possible, before the CU had been done. No gas for anything.
Full wall oven and ceramic hob and mains pressure storage hot water.

I only stopped doing that when the electricity
supply authority chucked a tantrum.

shocking disregard for the law .......

Only got the one shock when pointing the block work in the dark.
I used planks on 44 gallon drums as scaffolding and PAR38 flood
lights on that at night. They didn?t like the bouncing around when
running and when the light went out, I assumed it was just another
blown bulb, so ran my hand down the cord to find the bulb holder.
Turned out that the cord had pulled out of the bulb holder and
that was why the light had gone out and I ended up with the
bare wires in the palm of my hand.



And the rest is internet history.....

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 02/12/2018 15:11, Chris Hogg wrote:
The Tesla 'mega-battery', installed in Australia last year at a cost
of $66 million and hailed as being the biggest battery ever, has a
power output of 100MW and a capacity of 129 MWh, call it 0.13 GWh. So
you would need something close to 37,000 of those batteries to keep
the lights on in the UK for five days (4800/0.130), at a cost of $2442
billion. You could build well over 100 Hinkley-C nuclear power
stations for that, with a generating capacity vastly in excess of what
a totally carbon-free UK society would need.

Don't Frighten the Green Diane Abbots with Real Sums.

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 02/12/2018 19:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
wrote:

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 13:52:04 +0000, RJH wrote:

I don't think anybody of note is suggesting we go 'full green'
until this issue of variable demand/supply and storage has been solved.

It never will be. If you go 100% renewable, you will need electricity
storage to cover virtually 100% of demand for several days. In the
winter, that's somewhere around 40GW for say, arbitrarily, 5 days,
(although it could be longer), i.e. 4800 GWh.
The Tesla 'mega-battery', installed in Australia last year at a cost
of $66 million and hailed as being the biggest battery ever, has a
power output of 100MW and a capacity of 129 MWh, call it 0.13 GWh. So
you would need something close to 37,000 of those batteries to keep
the lights on in the UK for five days (4800/0.130), at a cost of $2442
billion. You could build well over 100 Hinkley-C nuclear power
stations for that, with a generating capacity vastly in excess of what
a totally carbon-free UK society would need.

Why is that from time to time, some fathead comes up with the same
belling-the-cat solution of lots more windmills, giant batteries, etc
etc, without apparently doing the sums required to see what it would
amount to or looking into feasibility?


Lefty****s Cant Do Sums,. They use a different side of their brains to
arrive at 'morally correct' solutions, not ones that will work, because
actually working is NOT THE POINT of letftard thinking

What counts is being IN The RIGHT, and that mean Being Left.


I also wouldn't want to live close to even one of the Tesla jobbies.
129MWh equates to 13,000 litres of oil-based liquid fuel. Imagine the
explosion if the ******* got an internal short.

Indeed.


--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 02/12/2018 14:09, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:

THERE IS NO STORAGE FOR ELECTRICITY ON THE GRID. AND NONE IS
REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE.

There. That clear enough for you?

Well there is Dinorwig, which can provide 2GW for 8 hours, IIRC. But
that's all.

Aren't there are some tiny "battery barns"?

There is no real; purpose built storage on the grid except Dinorwig,
Cruachan et al... BUT the spinning mass of the power stations is
something that can keep the grid surprisingly stable over very short
duration (seconds) overloads and load variations.

Beyond that hydro and punmped will respond to price spikes by cutting
into that money bank of stored water they have...thank heavens there is
some sort of free market so that mechanism works at least...

The rest of the storage is in nuclear fuel rods, piles of coal and cubic
meters of gas..


--
"If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 02/12/2018 19:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
wrote:

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 13:52:04 +0000, RJH wrote:

I don't think anybody of note is suggesting we go 'full green'
until this issue of variable demand/supply and storage has been solved.

It never will be. If you go 100% renewable, you will need electricity
storage to cover virtually 100% of demand for several days. In the
winter, that's somewhere around 40GW for say, arbitrarily, 5 days,
(although it could be longer), i.e. 4800 GWh.
The Tesla 'mega-battery', installed in Australia last year at a cost
of $66 million and hailed as being the biggest battery ever, has a
power output of 100MW and a capacity of 129 MWh, call it 0.13 GWh. So
you would need something close to 37,000 of those batteries to keep
the lights on in the UK for five days (4800/0.130), at a cost of $2442
billion. You could build well over 100 Hinkley-C nuclear power
stations for that, with a generating capacity vastly in excess of what
a totally carbon-free UK society would need.

Why is that from time to time, some fathead comes up with the same
belling-the-cat solution of lots more windmills, giant batteries, etc
etc, without apparently doing the sums required to see what it would
amount to or looking into feasibility?


Lefty****s Cant Do Sums,. They use a different side of their brains to
arrive at 'morally correct' solutions, not ones that will work, because
actually working is NOT THE POINT of letftard thinking

What counts is being IN The RIGHT, and that mean Being Left.


I also wouldn't want to live close to even one of the Tesla jobbies.
129MWh equates to 13,000 litres of oil-based liquid fuel. Imagine the
explosion if the ******* got an internal short.

Indeed.

I keep meaning to do the sums to see if a mass array of clock springs
would work. I suspect they might be a bit lossy, but with all this free
wind and solar power that shouldn't matter.


--

Roger Hayter

On Sun, 02 Dec 2018 22:43:17 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

====snip====


I keep meaning to do the sums to see if a mass array of clock springs
would work. I suspect they might be a bit lossy, but with all this free
wind and solar power that shouldn't matter.

I'll save you the bother. The energy storage capacity of a scaled up
clockwork mainspring, even when Nitinol is used to get an eightfold
improvement over the conventional spring steel alloys typically used in
clocks and clockwork toys would fall woefully short of the target
requirement.

If you're looking at wind up energy storage, you do much better with
rubber bands[1] but even rubber band energy storage still falls far short
of the requirements to store all of this free energy that has to go to
unused by virtue of it being generated at inconvenient times of the day.

[1] Whilst rubber can store significantly more energy in a given volume
than even a Nitinol main spring, it does have a limited service life as
model aeroplane enthusiasts and catapult users know only too well. You
certainly wouldn't want to be around a fully charged 1MWH rubber band
energy store when the elastic snaps! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On 02/12/2018 13:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH wrote:

Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind
systems really have no electricity storage or alternative source?

THERE IS NO STORAGE FOR ELECTRICITY ON THE GRID. AND NONE IS
REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE.

There. That clear enough for you?


No - *or alternative source*. Should have given you a clue about
context, too.



--
Cheers, Rob

On 02/12/2018 22:43, Roger Hayter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 02/12/2018 19:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
wrote:

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 13:52:04 +0000, RJH wrote:

I don't think anybody of note is suggesting we go 'full green'
until this issue of variable demand/supply and storage has been solved.

It never will be. If you go 100% renewable, you will need electricity
storage to cover virtually 100% of demand for several days. In the
winter, that's somewhere around 40GW for say, arbitrarily, 5 days,
(although it could be longer), i.e. 4800 GWh.
The Tesla 'mega-battery', installed in Australia last year at a cost
of $66 million and hailed as being the biggest battery ever, has a
power output of 100MW and a capacity of 129 MWh, call it 0.13 GWh. So
you would need something close to 37,000 of those batteries to keep
the lights on in the UK for five days (4800/0.130), at a cost of $2442
billion. You could build well over 100 Hinkley-C nuclear power
stations for that, with a generating capacity vastly in excess of what
a totally carbon-free UK society would need.

Why is that from time to time, some fathead comes up with the same
belling-the-cat solution of lots more windmills, giant batteries, etc
etc, without apparently doing the sums required to see what it would
amount to or looking into feasibility?


Lefty****s Cant Do Sums,. They use a different side of their brains to
arrive at 'morally correct' solutions, not ones that will work, because
actually working is NOT THE POINT of letftard thinking

What counts is being IN The RIGHT, and that mean Being Left.


I also wouldn't want to live close to even one of the Tesla jobbies.
129MWh equates to 13,000 litres of oil-based liquid fuel. Imagine the
explosion if the ******* got an internal short.

Indeed.

I keep meaning to do the sums to see if a mass array of clock springs
would work. I suspect they might be a bit lossy, but with all this free
wind and solar power that shouldn't matter.

Go round the junk shops and by up all the wind up gramophones!

--
Max Demian

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 12:06:04 +0000, RJH wrote:

Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind
systems really have no electricity storage or alternative source?

The alternative source is nuclear or gas. Energy from such sources
is offset by excess supply (from the renewable source) when the
weather is favourable - it all works on long term averages not
minute by minute details. In the long term energy requirements can
be met by renewables even if sometimes energy is being supplied to
the grid by other sources.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/node/101644
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environment...ut-rego-scheme

On Sun, 02 Dec 2018 15:11:41 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

The main objection to nukes in the public's perception is the
disposal of the nuclear waste, which in reality isn't a problem
at all;...

Eh? Tell that to people in West Cumbria, not to mention the
Fukushima province in Japan.

mechanic wrote:

On Sun, 02 Dec 2018 15:11:41 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

The main objection to nukes in the public's perception is the
disposal of the nuclear waste, which in reality isn't a problem
at all;...

Eh? Tell that to people in West Cumbria, not to mention the
Fukushima province in Japan.

I'm pretty sure that road traffic is a much bigger problem in both
places.

--

Roger Hayter

On Monday, 3 December 2018 11:45:36 UTC, mechanic wrote:

minute by minute details. In the long term energy requirements can
be met by renewables even if sometimes energy is being supplied to
the grid by other sources.

trust you to believe in a postion that is beyond any reality-based hope.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Aren't there are some tiny "battery barns"?

There is no real; purpose built storage on the grid except Dinorwig,
Cruachan et al... BUT the spinning mass of the power stations is
something that can keepÂ* the grid surprisingly stable overÂ* very short
duration (seconds) overloads and load variations.

I think the barn idea is about lopping peak demand, similar to
load-shedding, rather than being able to make up for any large shortfall
when it's dark or not windy?

On 03/12/2018 11:55, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 02 Dec 2018 15:11:41 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

The main objection to nukes in the public's perception is the
disposal of the nuclear waste, which in reality isn't a problem
at all;...

Eh? Tell that to people in West Cumbria, not to mention the
Fukushima province in Japan.

We did, but the scaremongers got there first.

In reality Fukushima area (excluding actual reactor site) is less
radioactive than Dartmoor.

As is West Cumbria.



--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

Wrote in message:
On Saturday, 1 December 2018 10:37:01 UTC, Marland wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 01/12/2018 09:28, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 00:48:12 -0800, tabbypurr wrote:

On Saturday, 1 December 2018 08:31:58 UTC, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Has anybody who has not got a water meter ever thought about installing
a small hydro electric generator to reap back some of the water and
lecy bills?

they were available in the 1940s. One could perhaps charge batteries
with one eventually. If you have electricity they're pointless.

Rudyard Kipling had one at his house in Sussex. Reportedly, he asked an
expert (Sir William Willcox) for advice. Willcox had just completed what
he described as "a trifling affair on the Nile" - the first Aswan Dam.

He got enough power to charge batteries for lighting each evening, which
was what he wanted.


Some of it was still in place when I visited the house many years ago,
including the cast iron turbine - which I remember as it surprised me as
I'd been expecting a water wheel would have been used in (I think) 1902.





Noting we have moved away from the OPs suggestion into more practical
territory the use of Turbines became popular around that period to replace
Water Wheels on many mills around that time.
Near to where I grew up a mill that by the time I knew it in the mid 60?s
was no longer milling but had two turbines in place, one had been converted
in the 40?s to drive a DC generator but that by the time I knew it had
fallen into disuse with the coming of mains electric.
I last visited the site about 5 years ago and the turbines were still in
place but the supply leat and sluices
had collapsed beyond easy repair and due to the sale of land leat and mill
are now in different ownership making any attempt to reinstate difficult.
Can?t access the location now as the person I knew there has died.


Not too far from where I am there is a functioning Mill with turbines
installed in 1904 that is open to the public.
https://sturminsternewton-museum.co.uk/mill/

I have to say it just doesn?t seem as atmospheric as one with a traditional
water wheel,fortunately there is one of those not far away either and we
get our flour from them.
https://www.alderholtmill.co.uk

Production was halted this summer due to water shortage so anyone depending
on small scale hydro should account for that possibility.
And that is before you work out how such a mill may only provide around 10
kilowatt so people used to mains supply would have to use personal demand
management in the household.

GH

10kW is about 40A, so demand management would not be a challenge. I still remember a load of flats each on a 5A supply. That was easy enough to live with once you knew how, but I don't think any of the occupants did.


NT


Yebbut 10kw was the power of the +mill+ turbine setup, not some
plastic spoon creation in an inverted washing up
bowl....
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 02/12/2018 13:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH
wrote:

Well I did too - thinking such systems had backup. Do solar/wind
systems really have no electricity storage or alternative source?

THERE IS NO STORAGE FOR ELECTRICITY ON THE GRID. AND NONE IS
REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE.

There. That clear enough for you?

Well there is Dinorwig, which can provide 2GW for 8 hours, IIRC.

A bit less than that... 1.73GW and 9.1GWh capacity

But that's all.

Not quite, there is Foyers (305 MW, 6.3GW) and Ffestiniog (360MW,
1.3GW), and Cruachan (440MW / 10GWh)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station

(So a total capacity of just under 27GWh)

Quite a good document here on storage:

http://www.british-hydro.org/wp-cont...age-report.pdf

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 01/12/2018 17:58, Jim GM4DHJ ...?? wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 01/12/2018 08:31, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Has anybody who has not got a water meter ever thought about installing
a
small hydro electric generator to reap back some of the water and lecy
bills?



How often is there a flow of water through the pipes your side of the
water meter.

He doesn't have a water meter.

How much would a flush of the toilet generate?

He's a very ****ty person.

Could such a device also reduce your water pressure to an extent that
combi boilers and electric showers fail to work?

He doesn't have a shower, just a bath with coal in it.

tee hee


welsh are you boyo ?

On Monday, 3 December 2018 15:19:13 UTC, JimK wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:

10kW is about 40A, so demand management would not be a challenge. I still remember a load of flats each on a 5A supply. That was easy enough to live with once you knew how, but I don't think any of the occupants did.


NT


Yebbut 10kw was the power of the +mill+ turbine setup, not some
plastic spoon creation in an inverted washing up
bowl....

Obviously. Was there a point?

Max Demian wrote:

On 02/12/2018 22:43, Roger Hayter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 02/12/2018 19:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
wrote:

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 13:52:04 +0000, RJH wrote:

I don't think anybody of note is suggesting we go 'full green'
until this issue of variable demand/supply and storage has been solved.

It never will be. If you go 100% renewable, you will need electricity
storage to cover virtually 100% of demand for several days. In the
winter, that's somewhere around 40GW for say, arbitrarily, 5 days,
(although it could be longer), i.e. 4800 GWh.
The Tesla 'mega-battery', installed in Australia last year at a cost
of $66 million and hailed as being the biggest battery ever, has a
power output of 100MW and a capacity of 129 MWh, call it 0.13 GWh. So
you would need something close to 37,000 of those batteries to keep
the lights on in the UK for five days (4800/0.130), at a cost of $2442
billion. You could build well over 100 Hinkley-C nuclear power
stations for that, with a generating capacity vastly in excess of what
a totally carbon-free UK society would need.

Why is that from time to time, some fathead comes up with the same
belling-the-cat solution of lots more windmills, giant batteries, etc
etc, without apparently doing the sums required to see what it would
amount to or looking into feasibility?


Lefty****s Cant Do Sums,. They use a different side of their brains to
arrive at 'morally correct' solutions, not ones that will work, because
actually working is NOT THE POINT of letftard thinking

What counts is being IN The RIGHT, and that mean Being Left.


I also wouldn't want to live close to even one of the Tesla jobbies.
129MWh equates to 13,000 litres of oil-based liquid fuel. Imagine the
explosion if the ******* got an internal short.

Indeed.

I keep meaning to do the sums to see if a mass array of clock springs
would work. I suspect they might be a bit lossy, but with all this free
wind and solar power that shouldn't matter.

Go round the junk shops and by up all the wind up gramophones!

Apparently someone has already done the relevant sums, no surprisse
really.

--

Roger Hayter

Roger Hayter wrote:

Max Demian wrote:

Go round the junk shops and by up all the wind up gramophones!

Apparently someone has already done the relevant sums, no surprisse
really.

There's a scheme to run heavy rail vehicles up a slope to store
energy.

https://interestingengineering.com/energy-storage-trains-work-power-gravity

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Aren't there are some tiny "battery barns"?

There is no real; purpose built storage on the grid except Dinorwig,
Cruachan et al... BUT the spinning mass of the power stations is
something that can keep the grid surprisingly stable over very short
duration (seconds) overloads and load variations.

I think the barn idea is about lopping peak demand, similar to
load-shedding, rather than being able to make up for any large shortfall
when it's dark or not windy?

In our case, where that Tesla system is,
its actually there for the black starts.

Wrote in message:
On Monday, 3 December 2018 15:19:13 UTC, JimK wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:

10kW is about 40A, so demand management would not be a challenge. I still remember a load of flats each on a 5A supply. That was easy enough to live with once you knew how, but I don't think any of the occupants did.


NT


Yebbut 10kw was the power of the +mill+ turbine setup, not some
plastic spoon creation in an inverted washing up
bowl....

Obviously. Was there a point?


Obviously the op of the thread (if you bother to read anything
anymore) is pondering wasting water from his tap to try &
generate power....

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 03/12/2018 17:31, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 15:42:02 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:
A bit less than that... 1.73GW and 9.1GWh capacity

But that's all.

Not quite, there is Foyers (305 MW, 6.3GW) and Ffestiniog (360MW,
1.3GW), and Cruachan (440MW / 10GWh)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station

(So a total capacity of just under 27GWh)

Which, with a load of 40GW (see my earlier calculation) would keep the
lights on in the UK for just....wait for it....40 minutes! Long enough
to find the candles, Gaz lamp and matches, I suppose!

Not 'nothing' IOW



Quite a good document here on storage:

http://www.british-hydro.org/wp-cont...age-report.pdf

The trouble is that although Pumped Storage is generally accepted as a
'good thing', we haven't got the topography to implement it in any way
sufficient to make a significant difference to stored energy relative
to what's needed for an all-renewable supply, as table 5-1 on p. 15
shows. Adding up the capacities on the RH column (taking means where
necessary and including a figure for Glenmuchloch of 1.7 GWh*), gives
a total capacity of 136.8 GWh, which will keep the lights on for 3 hrs
25 minutes on a cold winter's evening WTWDBATSDS. Long enough to watch
a bit of telly, before you retreat, shivering, to bed. (Muaitheabhal,
on the Outer Hebrides, is reticent about it's capacity; plenty of puff
about how many homes it'll supply (200,000), but nothing on how long
for!)

But the monster and near-fantasy Strathdearn scheme proposed by the
'Scottish Scientist' would be more than adequate at 6,800 GWh**,
except that it'll never be built!

* http://euanmearns.com/the-glenmucklo...-hydro-scheme/

** https://tinyurl.com/hcb953s and https://tinyurl.com/zwxx7wq


Interesting, thanks - especially the exchange with 'Gilbert' - who
worked on and studied the Scottish schemes - and concludes:

'It is not about have we the capacity to store renewable energy, we do.
Its about who pays for it and how much'.

--
Cheers, Rob

87213 wrote:

In our case, where that Tesla system is,
its actually there for the black starts.

Is that a change from how it was planned then? I thought it was to even
out fluctuations (at the border between regional grids?) caused by too
much reliance on wind power at times of no wind, and avoid blackouts
rather than make black starts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

RJH wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Dinorwig 1.73GW
Foyers 305 MW
Ffestiniog 360MW Cruachan 440MW

with a load of 40GW (see my earlier calculation) would keep the
lights on in the UK for just....wait for it....40 minutes

Not 'nothing' IOW

Together they may be able to supply 27GWh of energy, but can only supply
2.8GW of power, so couldn't keep the lights on, you'd have a burnt-out
electric mountain if it tried to supply the 45GW of demand that exists
right now.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
87213 wrote:

In our case, where that Tesla system is,
its actually there for the black starts.

Is that a change from how it was planned then?

How what was planned, the Tesla system or the state grid ?

I thought it was to even
out fluctuations (at the border between regional grids?) caused by too
much reliance on wind power at times of no wind, and avoid blackouts
rather than make black starts?

No, the problem was black starts. That avoids black starts
when the very high percentage of renewables sees nothing
keeping the grid going in the worst case situations like when
the interconnect to Victoria fails and the wind systems shut
down to protect themselves in very high wind situations.

That's what caused the full state wide blackout for days
and the problem with doing a black start in that situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

Chris J Dixon wrote:

There's a scheme to run heavy rail vehicles up a slope to store
energy.

I remember that scheme, using e.g. steel for the weights may have 8x the
density of water, but by putting the weights on tracks you limit the
mass you can store in a given area.

87213 wrote:

How what was planned, the Tesla system or the state grid ?
I thought the tesla battery was in reaction to, and to prevent a
recurrence of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout

the problem was black starts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

The wiki article doesn't mention black start.

Jim GM4DHJ ... a utilisé son clavier pour écrire :
Has anybody who has not got a water meter ever thought about installing a
small hydro electric generator to reap back some of the water and lecy bills?

Sorry for the OT.
What is the part of English homes that have no water meters ?
For a French this seems unbeliveable.
May be it's true that it rains a lot overthere after all. lol

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
87213 wrote:

How what was planned, the Tesla system or the state grid ?
I thought the tesla battery was in reaction to, and to prevent a
recurrence of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout

Correct.

the problem was black starts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

The wiki article doesn't mention black start.

Yes, whoever wrote that got that wrong.

On 03/12/2018 20:41, bilou wrote:
Sorry for the OT.
What is the part of English homes that have no water meters ?
For a French this seems unbeliveable.
May be it's true that it rains a lot overthere after all. lol

Water meters were very unusual in houses up to about 25 years ago.

The price paid for the water was based very loosely on the value of the
house.

Andy

On 03/12/2018 18:52, Andy Burns wrote:
RJH wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Dinorwig 1.73GW Foyers 305 MW
Ffestiniog 360MW Cruachan 440MW

with a load of 40GW (see my earlier calculation) would keep the
lights on in the UK for just....wait for it....40 minutes

Not 'nothing' IOW

Together they may be able to supply 27GWh of energy, but can only supply
2.8GW of power, so couldn't keep the lights on, you'd have a burnt-out
electric mountain if it tried to supply the 45GW of demand that exists
right now.

Indeed, I was not suggesting that this was a national scale storage
solution. Mearley highlighting that Dinorwig gets all the recognition,
there are other players.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/12/2018 17:31, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 15:42:02 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:
A bit less than that... 1.73GW and 9.1GWh capacity

But that's all.

Not quite, there is Foyers (305 MW, 6.3GW) and Ffestiniog (360MW,
1.3GW), and Cruachan (440MW / 10GWh)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station

(So a total capacity of just under 27GWh)

Which, with a load of 40GW (see my earlier calculation) would keep the
lights on in the UK for just....wait for it....40 minutes! Long enough
to find the candles, Gaz lamp and matches, I suppose!

Indeed - as with many proposed storage solutions they wither comically
when exposed to the forensic probing analysis of, erm, arithmetic!

Quite a good document here on storage:

http://www.british-hydro.org/wp-cont...age-report.pdf

The trouble is that although Pumped Storage is generally accepted as a
'good thing', we haven't got the topography to implement it in any way
sufficient to make a significant difference to stored energy relative
to what's needed for an all-renewable supply, as table 5-1 on p. 15
shows. Adding up the capacities on the RH column (taking means where
necessary and including a figure for Glenmuchloch of 1.7 GWh*), gives
a total capacity of 136.8 GWh, which will keep the lights on for 3 hrs
25 minutes on a cold winter's evening WTWDBATSDS. Long enough to watch
a bit of telly, before you retreat, shivering, to bed. (Muaitheabhal,
on the Outer Hebrides, is reticent about it's capacity; plenty of puff
about how many homes it'll supply (200,000), but nothing on how long
for!)

But the monster and near-fantasy Strathdearn scheme proposed by the
'Scottish Scientist' would be more than adequate at 6,800 GWh**,
except that it'll never be built!

* http://euanmearns.com/the-glenmucklo...-hydro-scheme/

** https://tinyurl.com/hcb953s and https://tinyurl.com/zwxx7wq

Given its not unusual to have in effect no wind due to an area of high
pressure centred over Europe that can last several days in the winter,
while the output from solar is approaching the cube root of f all, you
also have to wonder how one will have the spare generating capacity to
"charge" these storage systems if they existed, while also meeting the
current demand for power.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/