For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I have to
build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue. The figure
will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and they *don't*
have to vanish: the effect should be that the man disintegrates and the mask
and robes just collapse, empty.

Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure? A lightweight head and
shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from above? A
collapsible lazy-tongs arrangement rising from a base, again with a dummy
head at the top? An inflatable figure punctured with a pin (and presumably
patched up each night for the next show)?

Any and all suggestions will be very welcome. Thanks.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:59:08 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I have to
build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue. The figure
will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and they *don't*
have to vanish: the effect should be that the man disintegrates and the mask
and robes just collapse, empty.

Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure? A lightweight head and
shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from above? A
collapsible lazy-tongs arrangement rising from a base, again with a dummy
head at the top? An inflatable figure punctured with a pin (and presumably
patched up each night for the next show)?

I think it may depend on how fast this disintegration needs to happen,
if you were to say use the deflation of an inflatable manikin
(possibly the easiest)?

If there is no real pressure required (depending on the weight of the
mask / robes) you could probably glue some sort of electrically
released and resealable flap valve into an inflatable manikin so that
it might collapse fairly quickly and be re-useable.

If it needs to happen quickly then any of the suggestions you made
could work, depending on the weight of the outfit.

The 'suspend from above' would give the 'empty Jedi cloak' effect
pretty easily, depending on how easy it would be to provide such
suspension and it's ok for the collapse to be 'random'?

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 26 July 2018 10:59:06 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure? A lightweight head and
shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from above?

Possibly, and if you use an electromagnet inside the head and a small black steel plate suspended on a black wire you can release it from ground level without any strings flailing about (or, indeed, give it a DMX relay and release it from the lighting desk).

An inflatable figure punctured with a pin (and presumably
patched up each night for the next show)?

An inflatable figure with a hose attached, and it can be inflated and deflated quite rapidly with a pump. Has the advantage the figure only has to be attached to anything with a small hose, and can be placed into position and moved about without having to attach to a suspension. Deflation won't be instantaneous though, and there may be some air or pump noise. Deflating inflatable dolls may be too reminiscent of Only Fools and Horses, though.

If you haven't found it already the Blue Room Forum has people knowledgeable about such things (and may already have one available for hire or loan).

For some reason I'm thinking car electric aerial mechanisms and bowden cables.

Owain

Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts. The collapse has to be pretty much instant,
so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need to take
immediate effect or nearly so.

I'd like to avoid electronics if possible, in favour of keeping things
simple.

Suspension from above is an attractive thought, though unfortunately it's
the hardest of those options to set up, at least as things stand at the
moment. It might be possible though to place the figure in an archway or
similar, but the supporting wire (or whatever) would need to be
undetectable, both when taut (which is fairly easy to achieve) but also when
released (which is harder).

I keep coming back to the lazy-tongs, collapsible pole idea, though the
former would have to be strong and sturdy enough not only to support the
figure but to do so without swaying, and the latter would be pretty tricky
to construct and control, unless there's an existing commercial product
which could be pressed into use. Is there, I wonder?

On 26/07/2018 11:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts.Â* The collapse has to be pretty much
instant, so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need to
take immediate effect or nearly so.

That means there will be a bang or very loud hiss/whoosh. It may be
better to settle or gradual but fast deflation.

On Thursday, 26 July 2018 11:38:32 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
I keep coming back to the lazy-tongs, collapsible pole idea, though the
former would have to be strong and sturdy enough not only to support the
figure but to do so without swaying

two lazy-tongs, at right angles, should be sufficient, and buildable in meccano or dexion strip. Or Bilofix if you have any.

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilofix

Or expandable garden trellis columns.

Owain

On 26/07/2018 10:59, Bert Coules wrote:
For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I
have to build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue.
The figure will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and
they *don't* have to vanish: the effect should be that the man
disintegrates and the mask and robes just collapse, empty.

Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure?Â* A lightweight head
and shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from
above?Â* A collapsible lazy-tongs arrangement rising from a base, again
with a dummy head at the top?Â* An inflatable figure punctured with a pin
(and presumably patched up each night for the next show)?

Any and all suggestions will be very welcome.Â* Thanks.

More a question than a suggestion: does it need to be a full, 3D figure
(for theatre in the round) or might you get away with a flat - or more
probably curved - "silhouette"?



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Many thanks for the new responses; much appreciated.

GB, a deflationary bang might actually add to the effect. The possibility
of an inappropriate slowly-collapsing-balloon sound is a little off-putting
(though I appreciate that it would be more likely to be a drawn-out hiss, as
you say). Also I do need a near-instant vanish rather than a slow collapse.

Owain, two lazy tongs at ninety degrees is a nice idea. Garden trellis had
occurred to me though from memory it's designed for one-off expanding and
installation rather than for repeated smooth up and down action. It could
be a good budget source for materials though. I'd never heard of Bilofix:
looks intriguing.

I'd also never heard of the Blue Room Forum, which seems like a splendid
resource. Thanks for that.

Incidentally, is there a source for inflatable figures other than the
obvious one?

Robin wrote:

More a question than a suggestion: does it need to be a full, 3D figure
(for theatre in the round) or might you get away with a flat - or more
probably curved - "silhouette"?

We won't be in the round so a half-relief figure might be possible. But
would that make the effect any easier to achieve, do you think?

Incidentally, is there a source for inflatable figures
other than the obvious one?

Evidently there is:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Morris-Co-S.../dp/B071DQ4FL7

On 26/07/2018 11:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts.Â* The collapse has to be pretty much
instant, so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need to
take immediate effect or nearly so.

snip

Instead of the dummy being inflated using a pump via the usual small
orifice, use a big hole with a blower. Maybe cut a foot off and have a
tube going up through a shoe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_man

Cheers
--
Clive

Bert Coules wrote:
For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I have to
build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue. The figure
will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and they *don't*
have to vanish: the effect should be that the man disintegrates and the mask
and robes just collapse, empty.

Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure? A lightweight head and
shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from above?

If you can give it a weighted base you could aid the collapse with internal
elastic twixt head and base and suspend it using fishing line (or perhaps
black thread would be less visible?)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Pamela wrote:

This effect is done often in theatre. Aren't there established
techniques for it?

Is it that common? Many illusionists vanish people in cabinets and behind
sheets and the like, but an open-stage vanish with no cover and leaving the
clothes behind is rare in my experience.

Clive Arthur wrote:

Instead of the dummy being inflated using a pump via the usual small
orifice, use a big hole with a blower.

Thanks for the idea, though from what I've seen of such things the collapse
tends be slow and potentially comically unfortunate. The need for a running
air supply probably complicates things too much, too.

On 26/07/2018 12:45, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

More a question than a suggestion: does it need to be a full, 3D
figure (for theatre in the round) or might you get away with a flat -
or more probably curved - "silhouette"?

We won't be in the round so a half-relief figure might be possible.Â* But
would that make the effect any easier to achieve, do you think?

There is a very effective technique that projects an image onto a
concave shaped plastic screen. It can create a very 3D looking image
hanging in free space, which can simply be "turned off". Presumably you
image could be clothed, and then separate similar looking clothes
dropped into place when the main image is turned off.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

There is a very effective technique that projects an image onto a concave
shaped plastic screen. It can create a very 3D looking image hanging in
free space, which can simply be "turned off".

John, thanks for that, but I'm after something rather lower-tech, I'm
afraid.

Chris Hogg wrote:

One of these perhaps...

Er... no.

But thanks for the thought.

On 26/07/2018 11:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts.Â* The collapse has to be pretty much
instant, so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need to
take immediate effect or nearly so.

snip

Inflate the 'balloon' with ammonia gas. To deflate quickly, squirt some
water in - ammonia dissolves in water very well and rapidly.

(Ok, maybe not, a bit dangerous, but it might provoke some other ideas.)

Cheers
--
Clive

On 26/07/2018 11:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts.Â* The collapse has to be pretty much
instant, so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need to
take immediate effect or nearly so.

Rather than an inflatable dummy, an inflatable frame made from thin
tubing which you can pressurise to make rigid. Use water to pressurise
it, much less volume to lose quickly.

Cheers
--
Clive

On 26/07/2018 12:45, Bert Coules wrote:
Robin wrote:

More a question than a suggestion: does it need to be a full, 3D
figure (for theatre in the round) or might you get away with a flat -
or more probably curved - "silhouette"?

We won't be in the round so a half-relief figure might be possible.Â* But
would that make the effect any easier to achieve, do you think?

Half-relief, probably not. I was thinking more in terms of
mask+clothing sewn together as a single piece, with some stiffeners[1]
and weights to make it drape/drop, which could be suspended from a
single fishing line.

[1] a bent wire coat-hanger or 2 being about the limit of my thinking
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Clive Arthur wrote:

Rather than an inflatable dummy, an inflatable frame made from thin tubing
which you can pressurise to make rigid. Use water to pressurise it, much
less volume to lose quickly.

That does raise the question of how quickly even a smaller amount of water
would drain, and of how to handle it while it was doing so and after, but
it's a clever notion, thanks.

Robin,

Half-relief, probably not. I was thinking more in terms of mask+clothing
sewn together as a single piece, with some stiffeners[1] and weights to
make it drape/drop, which could be suspended from a single fishing line.

That's pretty close to my (3D) approach, with a head-and-shoulders form in
expanded polystyrene maybe, or wire frame. I think with a single line there
might be a tendency for it to rotate, but there are ways round that.

On 26/07/2018 14:41, Bert Coules wrote:
Clive Arthur wrote:

Rather than an inflatable dummy, an inflatable frame made from thin
tubing which you can pressurise to make rigid.Â* Use water to
pressurise it, much less volume to lose quickly.

That does raise the question of how quickly even a smaller amount of
water would drain, and of how to handle it while it was doing so and
after, but it's a clever notion, thanks.

You could use many short hollow rods to make the frame, held rigid with
a spring-tensioned wire up the middle, just like those wooden push-up
toys...

https://www.sensorytoywarehouse.com/...aracter-wooden

Cheers
--
Clive

Clive,

You could use many short hollow rods to make the frame, held rigid with
a spring-tensioned wire up the middle, just like those wooden push-up
toys...

A very neat idea. Thanks!

On Thursday, 26 July 2018 11:38:32 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts. The collapse has to be pretty much instant,
so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need to take
immediate effect or nearly so.

I'd like to avoid electronics if possible, in favour of keeping things
simple.

Suspension from above is an attractive thought, though unfortunately it's
the hardest of those options to set up, at least as things stand at the
moment. It might be possible though to place the figure in an archway or
similar, but the supporting wire (or whatever) would need to be
undetectable, both when taut (which is fairly easy to achieve) but also when
released (which is harder).

matt black string on matt black clothing shouldn't be too visible.

I keep coming back to the lazy-tongs, collapsible pole idea, though the
former would have to be strong and sturdy enough not only to support the
figure but to do so without swaying, and the latter would be pretty tricky
to construct and control, unless there's an existing commercial product
which could be pressed into use. Is there, I wonder?

garden trellis. Cut in the right places to make a big lazy tong mechanism. Obviously some trelli are better at this than others. But the mechanism would have to extend under the stage or steps etc if the clothing heap is to go fully flat.


NT

On 26/07/2018 14:53, Bert Coules wrote:

That's pretty close to my (3D) approach, with a head-and-shoulders form
in expanded polystyrene maybe, or wire frame.

Only you can judge if the director's artistic sensibilities will accept
that big a lump on the floor

I think with a single
line there might be a tendency for it to rotate, but there are ways
round that.

That's a fair cop, 'guv.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 26/07/2018 16:10, wrote:

snip

matt black string on matt black clothing shouldn't be too visible.


That's a bit unambitious...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...self-invisible


Cheers
--
Clive

On 26/07/2018 11:46, GB wrote:
On 26/07/2018 11:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Tim,

Many thanks for your thoughts.Â* The collapse has to be pretty much
instant, so any release of pressure on an inflatable dummy would need
to take immediate effect or nearly so.

That means there will be a bang or very loud hiss/whoosh. It may be
better to settle or gradual but fast deflation.


Maybe a fan inflated body and reverse the fan to collapse it?

Bert Coules posted
For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I
have to build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue.
The figure will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and
they *don't* have to vanish: the effect should be that the man
disintegrates and the mask and robes just collapse, empty.

The Masque of the Red Death?



Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure? A lightweight head
and shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from
above? A collapsible lazy-tongs arrangement rising from a base, again
with a dummy head at the top? An inflatable figure punctured with a
pin (and presumably patched up each night for the next show)?

The ensuing bang could perhaps be covered up by one of the cast
streaming loudly.

--
Jack

"Handsome Jack" wrote:

The Masque of the Red Death?

The Roger Corman film? I've seen it but it was a while ago and I don't
recall a scene similar to what I'm trying to create. Obi-Wan's
self-sacrifice in the first Star Wars film is a more recent instance.

The ensuing bang could perhaps be covered up by one of the cast streaming
loudly.

Sorry, but using the internet is frowned on during performances.

Robin wrote:

Only you can judge if the director's artistic sensibilities will accept
that big a lump on the floor

It should be possible to rig it so it falls flatter than that. And if the
mask is a solid construction rather than of cloth or similar, a certain size
of residual pile would be understandable.

NT,

...the mechanism would have to extend under the
stage or steps etc if the clothing heap is to go fully flat.

Fully flat isn't necessary: the robes would have a certain bulk and the mask
can be solid (helmet-like) rather than cloth or similar.

That's enormously impressive, isn't it. But the time it must take!

"dennis@home" wrote:

Maybe a fan inflated body and reverse the fan to collapse it?

Too cumbersome for my purposes I think, but thanks for the thought.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:05:01 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Robin wrote:

Only you can judge if the director's artistic sensibilities will accept
that big a lump on the floor

It should be possible to rig it so it falls flatter than that.

Suitable elastic between the shoulders and feet, attached to internal
cross wires over the range to ensure it all collapses uniformly,
rather than just turns itself inside out like a glove (especially if
any air is trapped in the cloak).

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:21:52 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Many thanks for the new responses; much appreciated.

GB, a deflationary bang might actually add to the effect. The possibility
of an inappropriate slowly-collapsing-balloon sound is a little off-putting
(though I appreciate that it would be more likely to be a drawn-out hiss, as
you say). Also I do need a near-instant vanish rather than a slow collapse.

If the 'opening' was large enough and the volume of the frame small
enough it should deflate pretty quickly, especially if assisted by
some other means (elastic etc).

For the opening it could be a neck of a container (pringles can?)
bonded to the skeleton that has it's lid removed by a spring loaded
mech.

If it was positioned in the middle (vertically) the wind resistance
over the length would be minimised?

FWIW, the air pressure in my Zodiac inflatable dinghy is ~3.6 PSI and
that makes it stiff enough to support 4 people, an outboard motor and
all bouncing about on the sea. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Tim, thanks for that and your previous observation.

Actually there used to be a magician doing this all the time on stage. The
joke of cores was there was a flash and all that remained was the girls
bikini. No idea how it was done but obviously substitution and some hidden
area I'd imagine.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:59:08 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I have
to
build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue. The figure
will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and they *don't*
have to vanish: the effect should be that the man disintegrates and the
mask
and robes just collapse, empty.

Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure? A lightweight head and
shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from above? A
collapsible lazy-tongs arrangement rising from a base, again with a dummy
head at the top? An inflatable figure punctured with a pin (and
presumably
patched up each night for the next show)?

Any and all suggestions will be very welcome. Thanks.


One of these perhaps https://tinyurl.com/yaxsbe9b :-)

--

Chris

Brian Gaff wrote:

Actually there used to be a magician doing this all the time on stage...

That act definitely passed me by. Thanks for the info.

On 26/07/2018 10:59, Bert Coules wrote:
For reason far too boring to go into (but related to a stage play) I
have to build a full-sized dummy person which has to disappear on cue.
The figure will be wearing a full-face mask and long flowing robes, and
they *don't* have to vanish: the effect should be that the man
disintegrates and the mask and robes just collapse, empty.

Any thoughts on how to construct the dummy figure?Â* A lightweight head
and shoulders which support the robes, suspended and released from
above?Â* A collapsible lazy-tongs arrangement rising from a base, again
with a dummy head at the top?Â* An inflatable figure punctured with a pin
(and presumably patched up each night for the next show)?

Any and all suggestions will be very welcome.Â* Thanks.

You probably ought to be asking a magician. It sounds very similar to
the trick where a woman was covered by a cloth, before being levitated.
After that, the cloth suddenly collapsed and fell to the floor before
she walked in from the wings. I have no idea how it worked, but it was
done in the 19th century, so it must have been something mechanical.


--
--

Colin Bignell