We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work..

"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make
any difference.

While parking co's record and make use of number plate footage in order to impose
penalties, I think there are fairly strict conditions they have to comply with - by way
of notices etc.

IOW before seeking any more technical information it might be worth simply checking
with the local police and seeking their advice. As obviously number plate information
is no good in itself, no matter how clear it is, if there's nothing you can do with it.


michael adams

....

On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can
result in the police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report
within a period can result in the vehicle being seized. They are far
more likely to do something if you can give the number. They are not
going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively minor
anti-social behaviour.

SteveW

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled
location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can result in the
police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report within a period can result in
the vehicle being seized.

They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number.

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious reports ?

They are not going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively minor
anti-social behaviour.

Relatively minor anti-social behaviour which nevertheless as you've just explained
above, can apprently result in a vehicle being seized, on tne second occasion of
something being reported by a member of the public.


michael adams

....



SteveW

On 06/06/2018 21:09, Steve Walker wrote:
On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up
at the
local hall.Â* Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering
after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a
washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in
capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras?
I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from
an angled location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't
want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of
any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait
and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number
plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can
result in the police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report
within a period can result in the vehicle being seized. They are far
more likely to do something if you can give the number. They are not
going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively minor
anti-social behaviour.



Reported by whom? By Joe Public?


--
--

Adam

Steve Walker wrote:

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can
result in the police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report
within a period can result in the vehicle being seized.

Police Reform Act, section 59

On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work.


Caltrops are the answer.

Probably best laid in the car park just after your CCTV has had an
"unfortunate" accident.


--
Adam

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Steve Walker wrote:

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can
result in the police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report
within a period can result in the vehicle being seized.

Police Reform Act, section 59

Its a fair cop guv.


michael adams

....

"michael adams" Wrote in message:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled
location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can result in the
police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report within a period can result in
the vehicle being seized.

They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number.

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious reports ?

By looking at the CCTV provided?


--
Jim K

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled
location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can result in the
police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report within a period can result in
the vehicle being seized. They are far more likely to do something if you can give the
number. They are not going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively minor
anti-social behaviour.

Fair emough I stand corrected.

michael adams

....

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
"michael adams" Wrote in message:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message

They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number.

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious reports ?

By looking at the CCTV provided?

Fair enough if that was possible. But I was asking in relation to
their simply being "given" the number. What's to stop anyone
maliciously reporting a neighbour of anti-social driving along
with their car number ?
More especially if the neighbour is unpopular and other
neighbours are willing to back up the malicious complaint.
The description of the process makes no mention of CCTV, although
obviously that would help.
Or there again even better somebody could "borrow" the neighbours
car do a few wheelies and get caught on the CCTV even better.

michael adams

....

"michael adams" wrote in message
news

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at
the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering
after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout
presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in
capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm
guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an
angled location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't
want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any
timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait
and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number
plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can
result in the police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report
within a period can result in the vehicle being seized.

They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number.

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious
reports ?

They don’t have to with video footage.

In our case they show up at the alleged criminal's place
and ask them for their version of the story. Just happened
to a mate of mine. His wife was driving his ute which was
loaded with big stuff so she couldn’t see what cars were
behind her. Someone told the cops that that ute run them
off the road when they tried to overtake. When the cops
showed up to get his version of the story, he said that
he didn’t know anything about it, because he didn’t
realise that his wife was the one driving when it
happened because he wasn’t in the ute at the time.

The cops have decided to do nothing about
it, without even bothering to tell him that.

They are not going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively
minor anti-social behaviour.

Relatively minor anti-social behaviour which nevertheless as you've just
explained above, can apprently result in a vehicle being seized, on tne
second occasion of something being reported by a member of the public.

Not possible here.

"michael adams" wrote in message
news

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
"michael adams" Wrote in message:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message

They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number.

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious
reports ?

By looking at the CCTV provided?

Fair enough if that was possible. But I was asking in relation to
their simply being "given" the number. What's to stop anyone
maliciously reporting a neighbour of anti-social driving along
with their car number ?
More especially if the neighbour is unpopular and other
neighbours are willing to back up the malicious complaint.
The description of the process makes no mention of CCTV, although
obviously that would help.

Or there again even better somebody could "borrow" the neighbours
car do a few wheelies and get caught on the CCTV even better.

Plenty let others drive their car. Here, if the car is caught on speed
cameras,
you are free to tell the authoritys who was driving it at the time;.

Same would apply in the situation being discussed.

On 06/06/2018 21:24, michael adams wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 20:27, michael adams wrote:
"Cynic" wrote in message
...
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the
local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark
in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably
caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing
readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing
the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled
location
might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV
footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching
them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make
any difference.

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can result in the
police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report within a period can result in
the vehicle being seized.

They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number.

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious reports ?

That is one of the problems that struck me when this legislation was
introduced. Lacking CCTV evidence, I think that it was mentioned at the
time that it had to be from two independent members of the public. Still
not a lot of protection.

Even worse is that there is no right of appeal or avenue for doing so in
the legislation. The only route to fight it is apparently by judicial
review, which would be very expensive and time consuming. I suppose it
would have to be fought out in court on the basis of the owner showing
that the accusers were known to them or associated with people who they
have a dispute with or by showing that you were not the driver -
although the offence can be "attached" to the vehicle and not just the
driver.

These days though, I would expect that the police would be wanting to
see CCTV or phone video evidence.

They are not going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively minor
anti-social behaviour.

Relatively minor anti-social behaviour which nevertheless as you've just explained
above, can apprently result in a vehicle being seized, on tne second occasion of
something being reported by a member of the public.

The relevant legislation is Section 59. It is not very clear, but
apparently (confirmed on police forums and lawyers guidance forums), but
the officer only needs to "believe" that the vehicle is being used in an
anti-social manner, likely to cause distress or annoyance and that
belief can simply be by them receiving reports from the public.

It is wide open to abuse. However, I presume that it is not being hugely
abused or there would be stories in the papers about it.

SteveW

On 06/06/2018 21:36, ARW wrote:
On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up
at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers
gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout
presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had
success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using
economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera
with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the
reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend
funds without being sure it will work.


Caltrops are the answer.

Probably best laid in the car park just after your CCTV has had an
"unfortunate" accident.

I like it!

SteveW

ARW Wrote in message:
On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work.


Caltrops are the answer.

Probably best laid in the car park just after your CCTV has had an
"unfortunate" accident.



Nice...
Presumably also need to budget to equip the cleaning ladies with
"magnetic brooms" as in the other "Huge ping****it" thread?

--
Jim K

On Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:00:33 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed produced
yet more rot:

FLUSH yet more of the inevitable rot

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"michael adams" wrote in message
news
Or there again even better somebody could "borrow" the neighbours
car do a few wheelies and get caught on the CCTV even better.

Plenty let others drive their car. Here, if the car is caught on speed cameras,
you are free to tell the authoritys who was driving it at the time;.

Same would apply in the situation being discussed.

Sorry I wasn't clear. By "borrow" there, I meant borrowed without the
owner's knowledge or consent. Basically the owner, the unpopular
neighbour, would be sound asleep in bed and their car would be nicked
from outside their house and driven to where there was a convenient
CCTV camera - anti social behaviour with the car would ensue
and it would be returned to outside their house.
Providing there were no CCTVs directly outside their house, once the people
who'd "borrowed" the car reported them to the police, I'd imagine they'd
have a hard job convincing the police it wasn't they themselves who were
involved in the anti social behaviour in front of the CCTV camera.

In fact, following the example of the guy in the Columbo episode
"Columbo and the Murder of a Rock Star" they could even wear masks
so as to look like the unpoular neighbour. But he'd probably
need to be a real PITA, to go to that much trouble.


michael adams

....

"michael adams" wrote in message
news

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"michael adams" wrote in message
news
Or there again even better somebody could "borrow" the neighbours
car do a few wheelies and get caught on the CCTV even better.

Plenty let others drive their car. Here, if the car is caught on speed
cameras,
you are free to tell the authoritys who was driving it at the time;.

Same would apply in the situation being discussed.

Sorry I wasn't clear. By "borrow" there, I meant borrowed without the
owner's knowledge or consent. Basically the owner, the unpopular
neighbour, would be sound asleep in bed and their car would be nicked
from outside their house and driven to where there was a convenient
CCTV camera - anti social behaviour with the car would ensue
and it would be returned to outside their house.

I realised that’s what you meant and moved on to the other situation.

Its not that easy to nick a car anymore.

Providing there were no CCTVs directly outside their house, once the
people who'd "borrowed" the car reported them to the police, I'd imagine
they'd have a hard job convincing the police it wasn't they themselves who
were involved in the anti social behaviour in front of the CCTV camera.

Easy to prove that the car had been nicked by the damage
that had been done to the car to be able to nick it.

In fact, following the example of the guy in the Columbo episode "Columbo
and the Murder of a Rock Star" they could even wear masks so as to look
like the unpoular neighbour.

Pity it isnt that easy to nick cars anymore.

But he'd probably need to be a real PITA, to go to that much trouble.

And they would still have to work out how to nick the car.

On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work.


No-one else has even tried to answer your question. They have been too
busy acting like barrack room lawyers.
The problem is partly that reflective number plates dazzle the camera,
partly that the number plate will be grossly over-exposed because it
reflects the IR, and partly that the shutter speed will be automatically
low so there will be motion blur.
There is no easy solution. You might do better to aim for clear
identification shots of the bikes and riders. One way is to have a
reasonable level of visible light (30W LED floods) and a camera with a
big lens set for a fast shutter speed. Pre-focus on the roadway because
the depth of field will be poor. Set the camera so it doesn't switch to
monochrome, since colour aids identification.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at
the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering
after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout
presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had
success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using
economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a
separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection
washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without
being sure it will work.

No-one else has even tried to answer your question. They have been too
busy acting like barrack room lawyers.

The problem is partly that reflective number plates dazzle the camera,
partly that the number plate will be grossly over-exposed because it
reflects the IR, and partly that the shutter speed will be automatically
low so there will be motion blur.
There is no easy solution.

The ANPR cameras must have found it.

You might do better to aim for clear identification shots of the bikes and
riders.

Makes a lot more sense to do it the way the ANPR cameras do it.

One way is to have a reasonable level of visible light (30W LED floods)
and a camera with a big lens set for a fast shutter speed. Pre-focus on
the roadway because the depth of field will be poor. Set the camera so it
doesn't switch to monochrome, since colour aids identification.

On Wednesday, 6 June 2018 19:58:52 UTC+1, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up
at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers
gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.

ANPR cameras can be hired, eg
https://www.mobilecctv.co.uk/anpr.php

although the cost may be more than buying one. Many police forces or councils have raplid-deployment relocatable CCTV cameras. Possibly if you involve local police liaison or councillors you might get them to put one near the hall for a while.

Or if you have a local security business with one they might give you a free loan.

Otherwise if volunteers can remotely access the cameras and keep an eye, on a rota, and call the police when something is happening, you may get a result.

Owain

On Thu, 7 Jun 2018 00:30:04 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Otherwise if volunteers can remotely access the cameras and keep an eye,
on a rota, and call the police when something is happening, you may get
a result.

If the Poilce density where the OP is is anything like ours (at any
one time around three officers inc PCSO's) for 100 square miles ish)
even if they aren't involved in something else by the time they've
arrived the boy racers will have moved on.

And as Mr Wright says getting a CCTV system that has the abilty to
render number plates at night isn't easy. He misses out the the glare
from head/tail/brake lights...

So if you have people able to keep an eye on the CCTV remotely, then
wandering around when "activity" is spotted and using the Mk1 eyeball
to get numbers, make, model and colour of the cars and passing that
to the Police may be more effective. Even better if there are CCTV
recordings that are good enough to show at least make/model if not
colour (apart from "light" or "dark") and plates.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work.


The industrial estate where I used to have my factories had a
professionally installed CCTV setup around the main gate. The whole area
was well lit by column lamps, to give good colour images day or night.
There were two general view cameras, giving distance shots in both
directions. There were two cameras giving closer views of vehicles and,
with luck, their drivers on entering and leaving.

The fifth camera recorded the number plates of vehicles entering. It was
not ANPR, simply recording an image that could be retrieved later, if
required. It had lots of problems until they fitted it with IR emitters
and a narrow pass filter, matched to the frequency of the emitters. It
was still never completely successful, but probably worked about 70% of
the time. One result of the filter was that it only showed the
numberplate on a black background, with no details of the vehicle. That
had to be identified from one of the other cameras. I don't recall the
police ever using any of the CCTV images in evidence, although they did
sometimes view them if there was a break in on the estate.

--
--

Colin Bignell

In article ,
says...

No-one else has even tried to answer your question. They have been too
busy acting like barrack room lawyers.

+1

My dashcam - a cheapo Aldidl one - starts recording when it
detects movement.

If there is somewhere you could mount one where it is
reasonable safe and protected from the weather - even if
someone has to install it every night just before it gets dark
and retrieve it later - I wonder if it would work?

By masking its own IR LEDs and placing it at a different angle
to the problem area - possibly near ground level - I wonder if
it won't be flooded by the IR from the main camera and record
the registration numbers? A simple check with a hand held unit
one night would prove or disprove the idea.

Make certain that the date and timestamps on both cameras are
correct so that the two recordings tally. Then you would have
the main camera recording events while the dashcam records the
registration numbers.

The internal battery on mine is rubbish so you might nead an
external battery supply but that should be easy to arrange.

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 June 2018 19:58:52 UTC+1, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up
at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers
gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.

ANPR cameras can be hired, eg
https://www.mobilecctv.co.uk/anpr.php

although the cost may be more than buying one. Many police forces or
councils have raplid-deployment relocatable CCTV cameras. Possibly if you
involve local police liaison or councillors you might get them to put one
near the hall for a while.

Or if you have a local security business with one they might give you a free loan.

Otherwise if volunteers can remotely access the cameras and keep an eye,
on a rota, and call the police when something is happening, you may get a result.

Wildlife/trail/ trap cameras are a nice self contained package.
Some models can send images over the cellphone network though often at
lower resolution than the one stored on the on board memory card.
Most have an option to record a sequence of stills and/or some video.
Others have low visibility black IR illuminators so they are hard to spot
compared to the usual red glow which can be observed.
Some councils set them up in known flytipping spots hidden a tree etc so
presumably some models collect a good enough image of numberplates to be
useful.

Prices range from about £40 for a basic one to around £500 for something at
the top end.
I have to say the one from Lidl a few weeks back though basic and with
normal IR illuminators produces very good images for its around £80 cost
that stand comparison to the more expensive Little Acorn I also have.

GH

On 06/06/2018 19:58, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work.


Its just a case of getting the exposure correct.
To do so may be impossible with some cameras.
The best way is with manual control so you park a car there and set the
exposure so you can read the plate.

Of course this means the rest of the field of view will be pitch black
which is why multiple cameras are used.

You could try moving the IR source away from the camera so it doesn't
reflect straight back but watch the shadows as they will lose detail.

We've had repeated discussion with the local police. Being rural the available manpower is prioritised elsewhere.
They have commented that number plate details would be immensely useful.

That's given some useful ideas. We may be replacing a broken off gatepost soon. A bit of heavy gauge box section with an artistic cap might be able to include a covert camera plus a motion sense light off axis to the camera so no reflected glare. The light would give a reason to cut a trench for an armored supply cable. The trench could also contain a bit of cat 5 in a duct to serve the camera.
Since my first post I learned this evening the hall in the next village had a similar problem and installed high speed bumps which the boy racers lowered suspension cars cannot cope with.
We'll probably try that first �

A dummy camera high up may deter them.

DIY solution could be a raspberry pi ocotocam, £40
I've got one i'm trying to use for a similar job,
when I have time

[george]

n Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 7:58:52 PM UTC+1, Cynic wrote:
We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues.
The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout presumably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic cameras? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illuminator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the image but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work.

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
No-one else has even tried to answer your question. They have been too
busy acting like barrack room lawyers.
The problem is partly that reflective number plates dazzle the camera,
partly that the number plate will be grossly over-exposed because it
reflects the IR, and partly that the shutter speed will be automatically
low so there will be motion blur.

The real problem is the light source being in the same position as the
camera. Very difficult to sort with a cheap setup.

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Its just a case of getting the exposure correct.
To do so may be impossible with some cameras.

It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside the
lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/06/2018 10:43, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Its just a case of getting the exposure correct.
To do so may be impossible with some cameras.

It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside the
lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.

If the IR illumination and camera were perpendicular to the number plate
I would agree, but that would be unlikely. The only other issue is with
snow/rain/fog where there is significant local reflection.

The contrast between white and black on a number plate is significant,
it really is a question of getting the right illumination and correct
shutter speed.

Some illegal number plates try and filter the IR wavelengths to reduce
the contrast, but they are still readable in the visible.

I might be more tempted to use white or yellow illumination, which would
also act as a deterrent.

On 08/06/2018 10:43, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Its just a case of getting the exposure correct.
To do so may be impossible with some cameras.

It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside the
lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.


Which is the point of retroflective number plates. AIUI, the problem is
avoiding other light sources from reflecting off the outer face of the
plate. That is why they fitted a filter matched to the wavelength of the
IR emitters to the number plate camera on my industrial estate.

--
--

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Cynic scribeth thus
That's given some useful ideas. We may be replacing a broken off gatepost soon.
A bit of heavy gauge box section with an artistic cap might be able to include a
covert camera plus a motion sense light off axis to the camera so no reflected
glare. The light would give a reason to cut a trench for an armored supply
cable. The trench could also contain a bit of cat 5 in a duct to serve the
camera.
Since my first post I learned this evening the hall in the next village had a
similar problem and installed high speed bumps which the boy racers lowered
suspension cars cannot cope with.
We'll probably try that first 0
I'd have a look at the Hikvision range of cameras, bought one to
evaluate recently been very impressed with it for 80 odd quid. I believe
they do a ANPR one and or the recorder that goes with it etc..


Have a look on Youtube, several demo examples on there..
--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside the
lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.

If the IR illumination and camera were perpendicular to the number plate
I would agree, but that would be unlikely. The only other issue is with
snow/rain/fog where there is significant local reflection.

Car number plates reflect light from more than one direction.

--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:43, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Its just a case of getting the exposure correct.
To do so may be impossible with some cameras.

It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside the
lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.


Which is the point of retroflective number plates. AIUI, the problem is
avoiding other light sources from reflecting off the outer face of the
plate. That is why they fitted a filter matched to the wavelength of the
IR emitters to the number plate camera on my industrial estate.

Yes - that would do it. Or provide a soft light which isn't thrown back at
full strength straight down the lens. Impractical to do, though.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/06/2018 14:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside the
lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.

If the IR illumination and camera were perpendicular to the number plate
I would agree, but that would be unlikely. The only other issue is with
snow/rain/fog where there is significant local reflection.

Car number plates reflect light from more than one direction.

By law the letters shouldn't, nor should any coating be added to make
the letters retro-reflective. So the contrast should be huge.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 08/06/2018 14:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside
the lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.

If the IR illumination and camera were perpendicular to the number
plate I would agree, but that would be unlikely. The only other issue
is with snow/rain/fog where there is significant local reflection.

Car number plates reflect light from more than one direction.

By law the letters shouldn't, nor should any coating be added to make
the letters retro-reflective. So the contrast should be huge.

But reflecting the light source straight back down the lens also gives you
a problem with auto exposure. Not much point having a picture where the
only thing you can see is the number plate.

--
*Modulation in all things *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/06/2018 15:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 08/06/2018 14:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It's not. Having the light source - in this case infra-red - beside
the lens means it reflects straight back into the lens.

If the IR illumination and camera were perpendicular to the number
plate I would agree, but that would be unlikely. The only other issue
is with snow/rain/fog where there is significant local reflection.

Car number plates reflect light from more than one direction.

By law the letters shouldn't, nor should any coating be added to make
the letters retro-reflective. So the contrast should be huge.

But reflecting the light source straight back down the lens also gives you
a problem with auto exposure. Not much point having a picture where the
only thing you can see is the number plate.

For Cynic's purposes the solution might likely to be more than one
camera. One with exposure specifically to capture the number plate, and
another to see what was going on.

There are cameras than can cope with a huge dynamic range, but they're
not cheap.