I recently sought opinion on what I should do about the 5 foot 58w T8
magnetic ballast type fitting in my utility room. The problem was that
it was switched by an occupancy switch (PIR), to allow hands free
switching when walking in and out of the room with hands full.

The options were - leave as is (the tube's heaters were being hammered,
by regular starting), change to an LED strip, or change the magnetic
ballast for an electronic one. When it is on, t is not on for long, so
no big advantage for LED. I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)and
managed to find an electronic ballast for £7.60 delivered and fitted
yesterday.

I was half expecting the series connected PIR not to work and having to
modify the light to allow it to charge up, but it worked fine without
any changes. Light comes on instantly, but with a slight strobing,
which clears within seconds.

On 28/04/2018 10:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I recently sought opinion on what I should do about the 5 foot 58w T8
magnetic ballast type fitting in my utility room. The problem was that
it was switched by an occupancy switch (PIR), to allow hands free
switching when walking in and out of the room with hands full.

The options were - leave as is (the tube's heaters were being hammered,
by regular starting), change to an LED strip, or change the magnetic
ballast for an electronic one. When it is on, t is not on for long, so
no big advantage for LED. I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)and
managed to find an electronic ballast for £7.60 delivered and fitted
yesterday.

I was half expecting the series connected PIR not to work and having to
modify the light to allow it to charge up, but it worked fine without
any changes. Light comes on instantly, but with a slight strobing, which
clears within seconds.


For £12 quid you could have had a 23W LED tube,

--
Adam

On 28/04/2018 10:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I recently sought opinion on what I should do about the 5 foot 58w T8
magnetic ballast type fitting in my utility room. The problem was that
it was switched by an occupancy switch (PIR), to allow hands free
switching when walking in and out of the room with hands full.

The options were - leave as is (the tube's heaters were being hammered,
by regular starting), change to an LED strip, or change the magnetic
ballast for an electronic one. When it is on, t is not on for long, so
no big advantage for LED. I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)and
managed to find an electronic ballast for £7.60 delivered and fitted
yesterday.

I was half expecting the series connected PIR not to work and having to
modify the light to allow it to charge up, but it worked fine without
any changes. Light comes on instantly, but with a slight strobing, which
clears within seconds.

I think I would have paid the extra £5 and bought a LED tube from
toolstation and just removed the ballast. You can just leave the ballast
in and use the shorting starter supplied but you don't need a ballast
with a led tube.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The options were - leave as is (the tube's heaters were being hammered,
by regular starting), change to an LED strip, or change the magnetic
ballast for an electronic one. When it is on, t is not on for long, so
no big advantage for LED. I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)and
managed to find an electronic ballast for £7.60 delivered and fitted
yesterday.

That is certainly a low cost. The ones I have for my under cupboard
lighting in the kitchen are Osram, and cost several times that. But must
be about 20 years old now. And still the original tubes.

So if it is well made, should have a long life. Unlike LEDs which may
promise that, but not give it in practice. And of course the actual light
quality hasn't changed from what you're used to.

--
wife.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

dennis@home pretended :
I think I would have paid the extra £5 and bought a LED tube from toolstation
and just removed the ballast. You can just leave the ballast in and use the
shorting starter supplied but you don't need a ballast with a led tube.

I wasn't convinced - The LED was only a little more than half the lumen
output of the 58w tube. Power economy was not a consideration, rather
the problem was tube life with all the on/offs. I have already swapped
all of the regularly in use lights over to LED and been happy with
them, but this wasn't a place where the consumption saving would be
worthwhile. The £5 extra cost, would have needed many years to repay
its investment.

Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
That is certainly a low cost. The ones I have for my under cupboard
lighting in the kitchen are Osram, and cost several times that. But must
be about 20 years old now. And still the original tubes.

It was a 'used one' - the seller had a story about the fittings being
installed, then soon after them being converted to LED..

On 28/04/2018 11:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :
I think I would have paid the extra £5 and bought a LED tube from
toolstation and just removed the ballast. You can just leave the
ballast in and use the shorting starter supplied but you don't need a
ballast with a led tube.

I wasn't convinced - The LED was only a little more than half the lumen
output of the 58w tube.

With half the lumens wasted.


--
Adam

ARW has brought this to us :
With half the lumens wasted.

In many cases perhaps, but not really here - the location needed direct
output from around 300 degrees of the diameter of tube, rather than
just down at the floor.

Yes some are like that other seem to kind of fade on. I don't see them
nowadays but our studio has quick start electronic ballasts and apart from
blowing one after 10 years they have been fine.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
I recently sought opinion on what I should do about the 5 foot 58w T8
magnetic ballast type fitting in my utility room. The problem was that it
was switched by an occupancy switch (PIR), to allow hands free switching
when walking in and out of the room with hands full.

The options were - leave as is (the tube's heaters were being hammered, by
regular starting), change to an LED strip, or change the magnetic ballast
for an electronic one. When it is on, t is not on for long, so no big
advantage for LED. I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)and managed
to find an electronic ballast for £7.60 delivered and fitted yesterday.

I was half expecting the series connected PIR not to work and having to
modify the light to allow it to charge up, but it worked fine without any
changes. Light comes on instantly, but with a slight strobing, which
clears within seconds.

But that would probably have had its problems driven with the mains, ie
radio interference and also maybe pir issues.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 28/04/2018 10:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I recently sought opinion on what I should do about the 5 foot 58w T8
magnetic ballast type fitting in my utility room. The problem was that it
was switched by an occupancy switch (PIR), to allow hands free switching
when walking in and out of the room with hands full.

The options were - leave as is (the tube's heaters were being hammered,
by regular starting), change to an LED strip, or change the magnetic
ballast for an electronic one. When it is on, t is not on for long, so no
big advantage for LED. I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)and
managed to find an electronic ballast for £7.60 delivered and fitted
yesterday.

I was half expecting the series connected PIR not to work and having to
modify the light to allow it to charge up, but it worked fine without any
changes. Light comes on instantly, but with a slight strobing, which
clears within seconds.


For £12 quid you could have had a 23W LED tube,

--
Adam

on 28/04/2018, Brian Gaff supposed :
Yes some are like that other seem to kind of fade on. I don't see them
nowadays but our studio has quick start electronic ballasts and apart from
blowing one after 10 years they have been fine.

I'm not sure whether it is a quick start or slow start up E-Ballast. It
is a b.a.g BCS 54.1FR

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
dennis@home pretended :
I think I would have paid the extra £5 and bought a LED tube from
toolstation and just removed the ballast. You can just leave the ballast
in and use the shorting starter supplied but you don't need a ballast
with a led tube.

I wasn't convinced - The LED was only a little more than half the lumen
output of the 58w tube. Power economy was not a consideration, rather the
problem was tube life with all the on/offs. I have already swapped all of
the regularly in use lights over to LED and been happy with them, but this
wasn't a place where the consumption saving would be worthwhile. The £5
extra cost, would have needed many years to repay its investment.

Sure, but its only £5, are you that poor ?

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 11:46:34 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

ARW has brought this to us :
With half the lumens wasted.

In many cases perhaps, but not really here - the location needed direct
output from around 300 degrees of the diameter of tube, rather than just
down at the floor.

Well said! :-)

Folk who keep advocating the "advantage" of downward only lighting of
the cheaper LED tube substitutes to compensate for their lower total
output, do so at the risk of neglecting the other excellent reasons why a
fluorescent tube offers a better lighting solution, lower glare index and
less self shadowing of the work area.

That's not to say that reasonably sized LED lighting panels can't offer
the same benefits but such an upgrade is an even costlier alternative to
simply upgrading the magnetic ballast of an existing fitting to an HF
ballast. The only troubling thing about that 7 quid *instant* start (with
brief flickery ramp up period) ballast is that it might be a simple HF
ballast without any form of lamp fault detection/protection to save the
more 'delicate' modern T8 tubes from premature wear.

The startup description echoes that of the cheap and nasty Chinese
electronic ballast that I replaced with a microprocessor controlled Helvar
ballast I'd bought for just under a fiver when I found myself having to
replace the 36W T8 tube for the second time in 18 months in a cheap B&Q 4
foot slimline batten fitting.

The Helvar ballast refused to run the failed replacement and only
attempted a single start on the original, leaving me to take a chance on
buying a new tube in the hope that my new fancy ballast was doing what it
was doing by design rather than by fault. As it happened, the former
proved to be the case and I note it applies some 900ms of pre-heat before
it strikes the tube into life with no flicker.

Unfortunately, because of the minimal mercury dosing, these tubes which
used to ramp straight up to full brightness, now have a similar run up
time to that of the mercury amalgam lamps used in CFLs. I guess that's
the price of "progress" in the world of linear fluorescent lamp
technology development that allows you to achieve the same lighting
levels as a 4 foot "40W" T12 tube in a magnetically ballasted fitting
(which actually used a total of 52W) from just the 36 watts consumed by
an electronically ballasted T8 tubed fitting. :-(

That 7 quid electronic ballast bargain might not be quite the bargain
you thought it was if you find yourself having to replace tubes on a
yearly basis. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)
it worked fine without any changes. Light comes on instantly

A few years back I changed the starters on three fluoros in my garage
and shed for the electronic ones, two of the tubes died within a couple
of days of using them, I presume the 'harsher' start was what did for them?

One of the electronic starters has now died, and one of the original
starters put back, if I go to the shed in the depths of winter the tube
may light quickly, but takes a long time to reach decent brightness, I
guess next time something fails will be the time for LED tubes

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:32:08 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)
it worked fine without any changes. Light comes on instantly

A few years back I changed the starters on three fluoros in my garage
and shed for the electronic ones, two of the tubes died within a couple
of days of using them, I presume the 'harsher' start was what did for
them?

One of the electronic starters has now died, and one of the original
starters put back, if I go to the shed in the depths of winter the tube
may light quickly, but takes a long time to reach decent brightness, I
guess next time something fails will be the time for LED tubes

The older, now sadly obsolete, T12 tubes would light up to full
brightness in all but the coldest of room temperatures and on a
"Quickstart"(tm) ballast[1], fire up in about quarter of a second without
all the fuss and sputtering of electrodes of a switch start ballast
making them almost as instant as an incandescent light and with a tube
life of about two or three times that of one fitted into a switch start
fitting typically used for kitchen lighting.

Thanks to H&S regulations, the newer, and more fragile T8 versions also
have to contend with an inadequate dosing of mercury (about a tenth of
that which used to be used in the older T12 tubes I believe) which would
appear to be *the* cause for the CFL like warm up characteristic. :-(

I reckon a mere doubling up of the new excruciatingly low mercury dosing
levels currently mandated by H&S would eliminate most, if not all, of
this run up time and still provide an 80% reduction of the mercury
contamination risk of a broken tube. There does, after all, appear to be
hard evidence that H&S can take things far too far. :-(

[1] Although a T8 tube can be fitted in place of a T12 tube, these refuse
to start on a "Quickstart"(tm) ballast circuit, requiring either a
downgrade to the switchstart ballast circuit or else an upgrade to an
electronic microprocessor controlled HF ballast.

--
Johnny B Good

It happens that Rod Speed formulated :
Sure, but its only £5, are you that poor ?

No, I am not that poor, but why spend an extra £5 you don't need to and
on a lesser product?

It happens that Andy Burns formulated :
A few years back I changed the starters on three fluoros in my garage and
shed for the electronic ones, two of the tubes died within a couple of days
of using them, I presume the 'harsher' start was what did for them?

In my garage, workshops and hut I have around 20 fluorescent fittings
of various sizes, all using ballasts and starters. All are less
frequently turned on than my utility light, so I have not intention of
swapping those over to an E-Ballast.

On 28/04/2018 21:36, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 11:46:34 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

ARW has brought this to us :
With half the lumens wasted.

In many cases perhaps, but not really here - the location needed direct
output from around 300 degrees of the diameter of tube, rather than just
down at the floor.

Well said! :-)

Folk who keep advocating the "advantage" of downward only lighting of
the cheaper LED tube substitutes to compensate for their lower total
output, do so at the risk of neglecting the other excellent reasons why a
fluorescent tube offers a better lighting solution, lower glare index and
less self shadowing of the work area.


Would it surprise you if I said that one of the apprentices just mounted
a load of LEDS tubes randomly so that half of them were lighting upwards?

--
Adam

On 28/04/2018 11:46, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW has brought this to us :
With half the lumens wasted.

In many cases perhaps, but not really here - the location needed direct
output from around 300 degrees of the diameter of tube, rather than just
down at the floor.

You can get LED tubes with a 300 degree spread eg
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LTT524W.html

The ones I usually fit (as a retro tube fit not a new fitting) have a
140 deg spread.

And it is, as you know, horses for courses. It's nice to see someone
actually think about what they want/need with their lighting.

But I would still try to sell you LED:-)



--
Adam

ARW wrote on 29/04/2018 :
And it is, as you know, horses for courses. It's nice to see someone actually
think about what they want/need with their lighting.

But I would still try to sell you LED:-)

Thanks. I wasn't aware that they were made with such a wide spread. The
ceiling is quite low, around 7 foot and as the only light in the room I
needed the spread.

Harry Bloomfield wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Sure, but its only £5, are you that poor ?

No, I am not that poor, but why spend an extra £5 you don't need to and on
a lesser product?

I was commenting on the payback time, not the product quality.

And what matters is whether its and adequate product, not which is best.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:46:29 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 28/04/2018 21:36, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 11:46:34 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

ARW has brought this to us :
With half the lumens wasted.

In many cases perhaps, but not really here - the location needed
direct output from around 300 degrees of the diameter of tube, rather
than just down at the floor.

Well said! :-)

Folk who keep advocating the "advantage" of downward only lighting of
the cheaper LED tube substitutes to compensate for their lower total
output, do so at the risk of neglecting the other excellent reasons why
a fluorescent tube offers a better lighting solution, lower glare index
and less self shadowing of the work area.


Would it surprise you if I said that one of the apprentices just mounted
a load of LEDS tubes randomly so that half of them were lighting
upwards?

Not any longer, it won't. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 11:28:21 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I wasn't convinced - The LED was only a little more than half the lumen
output of the 58w tube.

You're forgeting the log response of your eyes, halving the power is
only just perecptable. As I've mentioned before and the Aldi 5' 22W
2000 lm LED tubes I could barely tell the difference in light level
between the LED and previous 58W 5' florry.

The spread is as near as damn it identical to a florry as well.

Power economy was not a consideration, ...

With a light that isn't on for long (total) per day that's sensible,
but with a occpancy switched light the total on time per day can be
higher than one might expect. But with only a 20 W saving pay back
via power saving will still be long.

... rather the problem was tube life with all the on/offs.

This is the gamble, if the LED costs three times the price of a tube
but last 4 times longer...

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
... rather the problem was tube life with all the on/offs.

This is the gamble, if the LED costs three times the price of a tube
but last 4 times longer...

Care to take some bets? Under cupboard florries in my kitchen get a lot of
use and must be over 20 years old. ;-)

--
*How does Moses make his tea? Hebrews it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:06:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

This is the gamble, if the LED costs three times the price of a
tube
but last 4 times longer...

Care to take some bets? Under cupboard florries in my kitchen get a lot
of use ...

Use as in hours continously on or use as in switched on for 5 minutes
then off, maybe several times an hour for 10 hours/day. The tubes of
this thread were being killed by many switching cycles and use of a
switch starter.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29/04/2018 20:16, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:32:08 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I decided on the latter option (E-Ballast)
it worked fine without any changes. Light comes on instantly

A few years back I changed the starters on three fluoros in my garage
and shed for the electronic ones, two of the tubes died within a couple
of days of using them, I presume the 'harsher' start was what did for
them?

One of the electronic starters has now died, and one of the original
starters put back, if I go to the shed in the depths of winter the tube
may light quickly, but takes a long time to reach decent brightness, I
guess next time something fails will be the time for LED tubes

The older, now sadly obsolete, T12 tubes would light up to full
brightness in all but the coldest of room temperatures and on a
"Quickstart"(tm) ballast[1], fire up in about quarter of a second without
all the fuss and sputtering of electrodes of a switch start ballast
making them almost as instant as an incandescent light and with a tube
life of about two or three times that of one fitted into a switch start
fitting typically used for kitchen lighting.

Thanks to H&S regulations, the newer, and more fragile T8 versions also
have to contend with an inadequate dosing of mercury (about a tenth of
that which used to be used in the older T12 tubes I believe) which would
appear to be *the* cause for the CFL like warm up characteristic. :-(

I reckon a mere doubling up of the new excruciatingly low mercury dosing
levels currently mandated by H&S would eliminate most, if not all, of
this run up time and still provide an 80% reduction of the mercury
contamination risk of a broken tube. There does, after all, appear to be
hard evidence that H&S can take things far too far. :-(

[1] Although a T8 tube can be fitted in place of a T12 tube, these refuse
to start on a "Quickstart"(tm) ballast circuit, requiring either a
downgrade to the switchstart ballast circuit or else an upgrade to an
electronic microprocessor controlled HF ballast.


Not so long ago I guided someone how to change a fluorescent tube to LED
in a Mazda Netaline. The T8's would not strike which I suspect was due
to a lack of mercury and no ballast.

I assume that you know the Netaline, if not enjoy this link.

http://www.streetlightonline.co.uk/N...hotographs.htm

Now that one really does need a 360 deg beam.

Cheers

--
Adam

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:06:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

This is the gamble, if the LED costs three times the price of a
tube
but last 4 times longer...

Care to take some bets? Under cupboard florries in my kitchen get a lot
of use ...

Use as in hours continously on or use as in switched on for 5 minutes
then off, maybe several times an hour for 10 hours/day. The tubes of
this thread were being killed by many switching cycles and use of a
switch starter.

They get switched on an off a lot. And left on for long periods too.
Possibly the most used lights in the house.

--
*Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

ARW wrote :

Not so long ago I guided someone how to change a fluorescent tube to LED in a
Mazda Netaline. The T8's would not strike which I suspect was due to a lack
of mercury and no ballast.

I assume that you know the Netaline, if not enjoy this link.

http://www.streetlightonline.co.uk/N...hotographs.htm

Now that one really does need a 360 deg beam.

Cheers

The original illumination for the room, was just a completely
inadequate lamp-holder with a 100w bulb. I swapped that back in around
1985 for one one of those circular fluorescent fittings, which had been
pulled out of the kitchen. When that failed after a year or two's
additional use, I replaced it with the 58w 5' fitting, then later made
it occupation switched.

The end wall of the utility, had what used to be a coal store at the
other side of it, with its own separate door. As we had never used
coal, it didn't really serve any useful purpose, too deep and narrow.

I decided the best use it could be put to was as an extra pantry. I cut
a doorway (no door) through from the utility, removed and bricked up
its existing door and added a series of shelves at both sides of what
had been the two ends of the space. You walk in from the utility, then
there are floor to ceiling shelves to both your left and right.

I then added 6x washing lines running the full length of the utility
and extending into the new pantry, added a fan and a dehumidifier, to
turn the whole into a drying room. The lines cross the 5' fitting at
right angles. The utility has a sink, worktop, dishwasher and washer
drier in it at one side, then an upright freezer at the other. It can
become very congested with lots of washing being dried. I originally
used ordinary washing line, run between a series of substantial hooks
screwed into wall mounted blocks, which kept snapping, then shock cord.
What ever I used it broke or stretched, the ceiling height in there is
low, so they needed to be tight to prevent droop when loaded. A few
years ago, I changed it for plastic covered stainless rope - no more
breakages or drooping lines.

The drier is no longer used, the lines can take a much larger load, get
things mostly dry over night and it is much cheaper to run the fan and
dehumidifier than the drier. The fan and dehumidifier are essential to
dry the washing and keep the humidity in the room down to low values.
The dehumidifier's condensate is plumbed down into a drain.

Getting back to the lighting, it needed to be at right angles to the
lines and offering a wide spread of light, to get through the drying
clothes when the lines are loaded up.

On Monday, 30 April 2018 19:12:36 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

I assume that you know the Netaline, if not enjoy this link.

It will likely not surprise you that I thought it was a car!

http://www.streetlightonline.co.uk/N...hotographs.htm

It's a ceiling-mounted lightsaber...

On Tuesday, 1 May 2018 09:58:23 UTC+1, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Monday, 30 April 2018 19:12:36 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

I assume that you know the Netaline, if not enjoy this link.

It will likely not surprise you that I thought it was a car!

http://www.streetlightonline.co.uk/N...hotographs.htm

It's a ceiling-mounted lightsaber...

An electromagnetic ballast cou;d be put in the ceiling void & the resistance dropper bridged.


NT

On 01/05/2018 18:35, wrote:

8

It's a ceiling-mounted lightsaber...

An electromagnetic ballast cou;d be put in the ceiling void & the resistance dropper bridged.


NT


You only need L&N to one end of a LED tube.
The other end is usually just a short between the two pins.
There are a few which have L&N at opposite ends but they are pretty rare
AFAIK.

On 01/05/2018 18:35, wrote:
On Tuesday, 1 May 2018 09:58:23 UTC+1, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Monday, 30 April 2018 19:12:36 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

I assume that you know the Netaline, if not enjoy this link.

It will likely not surprise you that I thought it was a car!

http://www.streetlightonline.co.uk/N...hotographs.htm

It's a ceiling-mounted lightsaber...

An electromagnetic ballast cou;d be put in the ceiling void & the resistance dropper bridged.



Not in this case - Concrete ceilings and conduit.

But yes it could be done most of the time.


--
Adam