Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

I recently did some voluntary gardening work for a retired lady and
whilst I was there she had a new gas cooker fitted with a new bayonet
connector installed. After the gas was switched back on the gas boiler
failed to relight.

This is a baxi type gas fire with a conventional gas boiler behind and
a pilot light ignited by a piezo electric igniter. It looks like the
igniter hadn't been used for years and the pilot light had been
burning all that time.

A gas safe firm came round and complained the boiler was in a bad
state (never looked at for 30 years, about the same time she abandoned
the garden), parts for the igniter were not available so it was beyond
economic repair. He cleaned the fire and said it was fit for continued
use.

I barely know the lady so have to be wary of advising her but it seems
to me that the boiler behind the fireplace could be capped off and
abandoned. The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

A 24kW combi will fit in the kitchen and as there is no running water
upstairs, plumbed to the adjacent bathroom. There are only 5 radiators
in the house so the valves can be replaced by TRVs on all except the
one in the living room where the thermostat can be.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from
the vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. I have
suggested using a local firm offering a 7 year warranty on the combi
which may well see her out, at which stage the property would be a
candidate for a rebuild.

What I did wonder is rather than remove all the vented system could a
separate zone from the combi run through the DHW water tank coil, the
tank and cold water feed in the loft left in place? Then a separate
DHW tap in the bath would provide hot water back up, the combi just
being plumbed to the shower head?

Cost is a significant issue.

AJH

wrote:
Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

I recently did some voluntary gardening work for a retired lady and
whilst I was there she had a new gas cooker fitted with a new bayonet
connector installed. After the gas was switched back on the gas boiler
failed to relight.

This is a baxi type gas fire with a conventional gas boiler behind and
a pilot light ignited by a piezo electric igniter. It looks like the
igniter hadn't been used for years and the pilot light had been
burning all that time.

A gas safe firm came round and complained the boiler was in a bad
state (never looked at for 30 years, about the same time she abandoned
the garden), parts for the igniter were not available so it was beyond
economic repair. He cleaned the fire and said it was fit for continued
use.

I barely know the lady so have to be wary of advising her but it seems
to me that the boiler behind the fireplace could be capped off and
abandoned. The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

A 24kW combi will fit in the kitchen and as there is no running water
upstairs, plumbed to the adjacent bathroom. There are only 5 radiators
in the house so the valves can be replaced by TRVs on all except the
one in the living room where the thermostat can be.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from
the vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. I have
suggested using a local firm offering a 7 year warranty on the combi
which may well see her out, at which stage the property would be a
candidate for a rebuild.

What I did wonder is rather than remove all the vented system could a
separate zone from the combi run through the DHW water tank coil, the
tank and cold water feed in the loft left in place? Then a separate
DHW tap in the bath would provide hot water back up, the combi just
being plumbed to the shower head?

Cost is a significant issue.

AJH


Put up the type number of the fire. I bet the parts are available if
you look hard enough.

On 06/11/2017 12:57, wrote:
Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

I recently did some voluntary gardening work for a retired lady and
whilst I was there she had a new gas cooker fitted with a new bayonet
connector installed. After the gas was switched back on the gas boiler
failed to relight.

This is a baxi type gas fire with a conventional gas boiler behind and
a pilot light ignited by a piezo electric igniter. It looks like the
igniter hadn't been used for years and the pilot light had been
burning all that time.

A gas safe firm came round and complained the boiler was in a bad
state (never looked at for 30 years, about the same time she abandoned
the garden), parts for the igniter were not available so it was beyond
economic repair. He cleaned the fire and said it was fit for continued
use.

I barely know the lady so have to be wary of advising her but it seems
to me that the boiler behind the fireplace could be capped off and
abandoned. The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

A 24kW combi will fit in the kitchen and as there is no running water
upstairs, plumbed to the adjacent bathroom. There are only 5 radiators
in the house so the valves can be replaced by TRVs on all except the
one in the living room where the thermostat can be.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from
the vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. I have
suggested using a local firm offering a 7 year warranty on the combi
which may well see her out, at which stage the property would be a
candidate for a rebuild.

What I did wonder is rather than remove all the vented system could a
separate zone from the combi run through the DHW water tank coil, the
tank and cold water feed in the loft left in place? Then a separate
DHW tap in the bath would provide hot water back up, the combi just
being plumbed to the shower head?

Cost is a significant issue.

AJH

Why a combi? If the present DHW tank has an indirect coil and provided
this and the radiators are not corroded to death, use a system boiler
and make it unvented. This avoids the possible problems of running a
shower off a combi, and keeps the immersion DHW backup. And you are not
seriously proposing using a combi with vented radiators, are you?

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:31:31 +0000, newshound
wrote:

Why a combi? If the present DHW tank has an indirect coil and provided
this and the radiators are not corroded to death, use a system boiler
and make it unvented. This avoids the possible problems of running a
shower off a combi, and keeps the immersion DHW backup. And you are not
seriously proposing using a combi with vented radiators, are you?

Plumbing is not my thing and I thought system boilers had to go with
pressurised tanks, like the megaflow, which I took to be more
expensive.

I'll look at the system boiler options. Combi seems to be the cheapest
deal.

No I was going to make the rads a sealed system, risking that they may
already be corroded inside but they look fine.

AJH

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:30:30 +0000, Capitol wrote:

Put up the type number of the fire. I bet the parts are available if
you look hard enough.

I'll look next time I'm there. In fact I suspect it is just the wire
from the piezo igniter to the spark gap that's broken but I'm not
going to touch the fire front to get access.

AJH

On Monday, 6 November 2017 12:57:56 UTC, wrote:
I barely know the lady so have to be wary of advising her but it seems
to me that the boiler behind the fireplace could be capped off and
abandoned.

It can be. It needs to be properly emptied and vented and notices attached inside the firefront.

However, given the need for a combustion vent in the room causing howling draughts up the chimney, far better to take the ghastly thing out altogether and replace it with an electric firefront with no possibility of CO poisoning and much much less likely to cause burns/fire if she falls against it.

The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

Put a radiator in for the old dear. And her feet will be warmer with no cold draught across the floor from aforementioned combustion vent.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from
the vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. ... the combi just
being plumbed to the shower head?
Cost is a significant issue.

Combis are usually cheaper than system boilers to buy and a straight swap to combi / unvented operation (if the radiators will take it) usually the cheapest install option. She saves the possibility of loft tanks freezing or leaking, and unvented radiator circuits also have limited possibility of flooding.

Splitting the bathroom plumbing between cylinder (bath) and shower (combi) may involve dismantling bath panels etc. Not sure if it's permitted to install a new boiler to an older Part-L-non-compliant cylinder so a new cylinder may be required too.

Also, is she likely to continue using a bath for much longer? My mum had a thermostatic shower on a vented system which passed through causing the CW tank to overfill and bring the lounge ceiling down. When she went to a wetroom she got a Mira disability electric shower (which gave a very good performance when I tried it).

Owain

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:45:49 -0800 (PST),
wrote:



The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

Put a radiator in for the old dear. And her feet will be warmer with no cold draught across the floor from aforementioned combustion vent.

There is a radiator in the sitting room, she likes the gas fire.


Combis are usually cheaper than system boilers to buy and a straight swap to combi / unvented operation (if the radiators will take it) usually the cheapest install option.

That is as I thought, I can get one fitted for under £1500.



She saves the possibility of loft tanks freezing or leaking, and unvented radiator circuits also have limited possibility of flooding.

Yes I know of these benefits in having a sealed system.

Splitting the bathroom plumbing between cylinder (bath) and shower (combi) may involve dismantling bath panels etc. Not sure if it's permitted to install a new boiler to an older Part-L-non-compliant cylinder so a new cylinder may be required too.

Thanks for that titbit, can anyone confirm that it would or not be
allowed under part L? If not at least it solves a problem.

Also, is she likely to continue using a bath for much longer? My mum had a thermostatic shower on a vented system which passed through causing the CW tank to overfill and bring the lounge ceiling down. When she went to a wetroom she got a Mira disability electric shower (which gave a very good performance when I tried it).


Again a good point, I'll ask. Fitting a 10kW electric shower of decent
quality was my fallback position.

AJH

On 06/11/2017 17:42, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:31:31 +0000, newshound
wrote:

Why a combi? If the present DHW tank has an indirect coil and provided
this and the radiators are not corroded to death, use a system boiler
and make it unvented. This avoids the possible problems of running a
shower off a combi, and keeps the immersion DHW backup. And you are not
seriously proposing using a combi with vented radiators, are you?

Plumbing is not my thing and I thought system boilers had to go with
pressurised tanks, like the megaflow, which I took to be more
expensive.

I'll look at the system boiler options. Combi seems to be the cheapest
deal.

No I was going to make the rads a sealed system, risking that they may
already be corroded inside but they look fine.

AJH


I think you will find a system boiler is cheaper than a combi, for a
given capacity, if you are re-using the DHW side.The plumbing cost will
rather depend on the distance between the existing fire/boiler and the
new location, and/or whether current flow and return pipes run near the
new location. And how handy it is for the incoming gas (might need 22mm
pipe).

System boilers also have fewer parts to go wrong.

On 06/11/17 17:42, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:31:31 +0000, newshound
wrote:

Why a combi? If the present DHW tank has an indirect coil and provided
this and the radiators are not corroded to death, use a system boiler
and make it unvented. This avoids the possible problems of running a
shower off a combi, and keeps the immersion DHW backup. And you are not
seriously proposing using a combi with vented radiators, are you?

Plumbing is not my thing and I thought system boilers had to go with
pressurised tanks, like the megaflow, which I took to be more
expensive.

No, but that does give you nice high pressure hot water...




--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On 06/11/17 12:57, wrote:
Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

I recently did some voluntary gardening work for a retired lady and
whilst I was there she had a new gas cooker fitted with a new bayonet
connector installed. After the gas was switched back on the gas boiler
failed to relight.

This is a baxi type gas fire with a conventional gas boiler behind and
a pilot light ignited by a piezo electric igniter. It looks like the
igniter hadn't been used for years and the pilot light had been
burning all that time.

Was it a Baxi Bermuda at the back? The was one at Father-in-law's house,
and the pilot light started playing up shortly after he died. It was a
bugger to light, but once lit, the boiler was fine. AFAIR, there was a
trick in getting it to light, but I can't remember the method!



A gas safe firm came round and complained the boiler was in a bad
state (never looked at for 30 years, about the same time she abandoned
the garden), parts for the igniter were not available so it was beyond
economic repair. He cleaned the fire and said it was fit for continued
use.

I barely know the lady so have to be wary of advising her but it seems
to me that the boiler behind the fireplace could be capped off and
abandoned. The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

A 24kW combi will fit in the kitchen and as there is no running water
upstairs, plumbed to the adjacent bathroom. There are only 5 radiators
in the house so the valves can be replaced by TRVs on all except the
one in the living room where the thermostat can be.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from
the vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. I have
suggested using a local firm offering a 7 year warranty on the combi
which may well see her out, at which stage the property would be a
candidate for a rebuild.

What I did wonder is rather than remove all the vented system could a
separate zone from the combi run through the DHW water tank coil, the
tank and cold water feed in the loft left in place? Then a separate
DHW tap in the bath would provide hot water back up, the combi just
being plumbed to the shower head?

Cost is a significant issue.

AJH

Out of interest, why are you considering a combi (or even a system
boiler) rather than a bog-standard one? I just wondered if a pressurised
system might find weaknesses in the pipes which a conventional boiler
might not.

--

Jeff

On 06/11/17 17:45, wrote:
Combis are usually cheaper than system boilers to buy and a straight swap to combi / unvented operation (if the radiators will take it) usually the cheapest install option.

https://www.mrcentralheating.co.uk/p...em-boiler-only

under 500 quid for 18kW is bloody cheap.


In a small house with 5 rads you probably only need about 10kW

reuse existing rads and pipework - pressurised.


Reuse existing DHW tank, and run the primary pressurised as well

Might need acopule of motorised valves, radio thermostat and a strap on
thermostat for the water tank



--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 06/11/17 19:11, Jeff Layman wrote:
I just wondered if a pressurised system might find weaknesses in the
pipes which a conventional boiler might not.

You dont perssurise a boiler primary even to full mains pressure - just
about 1 bar.

If that leaks you needed a fix anyway.



--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

On 06/11/2017 12:57, wrote:

Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

Which link?

I re-hosted most of Ed's FAQs on the wiki some while back after his site
went down:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Boiler_choice_FAQ

A 24kW combi will fit in the kitchen and as there is no running water
upstairs, plumbed to the adjacent bathroom. There are only 5 radiators
in the house so the valves can be replaced by TRVs on all except the
one in the living room where the thermostat can be.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from
the vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. I have
suggested using a local firm offering a 7 year warranty on the combi
which may well see her out, at which stage the property would be a
candidate for a rebuild.

What I did wonder is rather than remove all the vented system could a
separate zone from the combi run through the DHW water tank coil, the
tank and cold water feed in the loft left in place? Then a separate
DHW tap in the bath would provide hot water back up, the combi just
being plumbed to the shower head?

Yup you could do that. Alternatively just fit a system boiler instead of
a combi. (its basically like a combi with internal pump and all that,
but lacks the DHW bit).

(you can even get traditional vented "heat only" boilers if you wanted
something closer to a drop in replacement)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 06 Nov 2017 12:57:53 +0000, news wrote:

Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a dud
url.

I recently did some voluntary gardening work for a retired lady and
whilst I was there she had a new gas cooker fitted with a new bayonet
connector installed. After the gas was switched back on the gas boiler
failed to relight.

This is a baxi type gas fire with a conventional gas boiler behind and a
pilot light ignited by a piezo electric igniter. It looks like the
igniter hadn't been used for years and the pilot light had been burning
all that time.

A gas safe firm came round and complained the boiler was in a bad state
(never looked at for 30 years, about the same time she abandoned the
garden), parts for the igniter were not available so it was beyond
economic repair. He cleaned the fire and said it was fit for continued
use.

I barely know the lady so have to be wary of advising her but it seems
to me that the boiler behind the fireplace could be capped off and
abandoned. The gas fire still being a source of warmth in the only
sitting room.

A 24kW combi will fit in the kitchen and as there is no running water
upstairs, plumbed to the adjacent bathroom. There are only 5 radiators
in the house so the valves can be replaced by TRVs on all except the one
in the living room where the thermostat can be.

What she doesn't like the sound of is losing her supply of DHW from the
vented tank with its secondary heating by immersion. I have suggested
using a local firm offering a 7 year warranty on the combi which may
well see her out, at which stage the property would be a candidate for a
rebuild.

What I did wonder is rather than remove all the vented system could a
separate zone from the combi run through the DHW water tank coil, the
tank and cold water feed in the loft left in place? Then a separate DHW
tap in the bath would provide hot water back up, the combi just being
plumbed to the shower head?

Cost is a significant issue.

AJH

Ten years or so ago but we bought a house with an old Baxi back boiler.
It had been turned off (house unoccupied and gas turned off) and wouldn't
light from the piezoelectric thingie.
Fortunately the gas person we located understood the boilers (standard
fitting on the estate) and was able to fix it. We ditched it soon after
for a combi but those horrible old inefficient things seem to be
reasonably bomb proof.

It might be worth asking around to see if there is a traditional gas
fitter who deals with Baxis. Anyone who isn't an expert won't want to
touch it, quite reasonably.

As others have stated, it is quite possible that the pilot light can be
relit using real flames (IIRC that was the stop gap for us)and it may then
burn on for many years (or until the gas is next turned off).

According to web search there should be two buttons, one to get the gas
flowing and the other to make sparks. A very long match (cook's match?)
may be able to reach the pilot light. Alternatively one of those very long
nose gas lighters for lighting candles and the like.

If you can get the pilot light going that might solve all the issues
(although a service by someone who knows the model would be money well
spent and cheaper than a new boiler).


Cheers



Dave R





--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:27:05 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2017 12:57, wrote:

Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

Which link?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...design#Boilers


Yup you could do that. Alternatively just fit a system boiler instead of
a combi. (its basically like a combi with internal pump and all that,
but lacks the DHW bit).

Yes I now favour this...

(you can even get traditional vented "heat only" boilers if you wanted
something closer to a drop in replacement)

....over this because it gives the benefits of a sealed system whilst
keeping the DHW tank. I initially liked the combi approach because the
pipe work from the kitchen looked so much simpler.

Taking the point TNP made the bottom of the system is already 20ft
below the F&E tank so if the system pressure stays below 2 bar it's
not a great increase.

Thanks for the help all.

AJH

On 6 Nov 2017 20:56:22 GMT, David wrote:


Ten years or so ago but we bought a house with an old Baxi back boiler.
It had been turned off (house unoccupied and gas turned off) and wouldn't
light from the piezoelectric thingie.
Fortunately the gas person we located understood the boilers (standard
fitting on the estate) and was able to fix it. We ditched it soon after
for a combi but those horrible old inefficient things seem to be
reasonably bomb proof.

Yes the local council fitted lots of these some 30 years ago, the lady
bought the house as a sitting tenant and had no maintenance done after
that.

It might be worth asking around to see if there is a traditional gas
fitter who deals with Baxis. Anyone who isn't an expert won't want to
touch it, quite reasonably.

This is the rub, people qualified to touch it won't without taking it
all apart to clean it, their labour cost then becomes a significant
portion of a replacement cost.

As others have stated, it is quite possible that the pilot light can be
relit using real flames (IIRC that was the stop gap for us)and it may then
burn on for many years (or until the gas is next turned off).

According to web search there should be two buttons, one to get the gas
flowing and the other to make sparks. A very long match (cook's match?)
may be able to reach the pilot light. Alternatively one of those very long
nose gas lighters for lighting candles and the like.

I understand this, the gas button has to be held for long enough for
the pilot light to heat a thermopile which then holds a solenoid on to
maintain pilot gas. Whether I should after a gas safe person has
deemed it unwise to relight without cleaning is a factor.

If you can get the pilot light going that might solve all the issues
(although a service by someone who knows the model would be money well
spent and cheaper than a new boiler).

Still looking for a gas safe person who will charge less than £70/hr
and do the work in a day. Most younger ones haven't got the right
qualification for the fire. Yes this should be the cheapest option as
I don't think the increased economy of a modern boiler will pay back
her outlay.

The house is an ideal "doerupper" and volume could be comfortably
increased by 75%. I realise this as the cottage adjoining mine is over
double the size after two rebuilds and worth a packet.

AJH

On 06/11/2017 22:03, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:27:05 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2017 12:57, wrote:

Firstly the link to Ed's boiler page in the FAQ seems to point to a
dud url.

Which link?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...design#Boilers

Ta, fixed!

Yup you could do that. Alternatively just fit a system boiler instead of
a combi. (its basically like a combi with internal pump and all that,
but lacks the DHW bit).

Yes I now favour this...

(you can even get traditional vented "heat only" boilers if you wanted
something closer to a drop in replacement)

...over this because it gives the benefits of a sealed system whilst
keeping the DHW tank. I initially liked the combi approach because the
pipe work from the kitchen looked so much simpler.

Taking the point TNP made the bottom of the system is already 20ft
below the F&E tank so if the system pressure stays below 2 bar it's
not a great increase.

Indeed. My feelings on this are if something springs a leak on
conversion to sealed, it was going to be pretty close to failure anyway,
so at worst you have probably only brought it forward a few months.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

We had a Baxi back boiler and over the years when the boiler would not light it usually boiled down to two things the pilot thermocouple or the pilot light jet. The thermocouple was the most common issue these can fail in service but we also noted that if it had been in a long time and probably near its fail point turning off the gas usually caused it to fail thus not sustaining the pilot light when you tried to re-light it. The pilot thermocouple is quite easy to change and quite a number of third party suppliers exist if Baxi no longer supply them. The pilot jet is a small disposable item costing penny's again easy to change they can get clogged up over time causing a weak pilot flame. The only tricky thing with either replacement is getting the thermocouple correctly aligned so the pilot flame hits it.

The chances are if the boiler has not been serviced in a long time it will be due a clean. Remove the front panel on the heat exchanger just a couple of wing nuts if I remember correctly. There are a couple of baffles below the flue which slide out to clean. The heat exchanger needs the vanes cleaning out with a bottle brush type implement and finally a good Hoover all round especially around the burners and controls at the bottom try not to get crap down the pilot nozzle, dismantle and clean/replace if you have. For a complete job the burners need to be removed and dismantled but that is a a bigger job but not beyond the capabilities of a competent DIYer.

Richard